OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 30, 2014, 04:25:53 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: A personal relationship with God is pure delusion  (Read 3462 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,255

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2011, 02:02:29 PM »

Your post feels a bit like a troll, but I'll take the bait anyhow.

First, your assumption regarding 'all believers' is a logical fallacy, since you can't give evidence for 'all believers.'

Second, 'subjective evidence' can indeed be evidence if it is accurate.  For example, if you walk into a room and it feels cold, then you check the thermostat and discover that it is 20°, then the subjective observation was accurate and could be used as evidence.  Our legal system runs on such evidence, in which we ask 'experts' to present their subjective observations, then execute and imprison men based on such evidence.  One term for this is 'circumstantial evidence.'  Christians and 'believers' are not alone in using subjective evidence.

Third, if the human brian can so easily make things up, then we are also at a loss for determining what evidence is not subjective, since the frail brain you are pointing to much first determine what evidence is accurate or even 'objective.'  As we all know from the recent 'global warming controversy,' objective evidence is not all that clear even in the scientific community.  I even recall reading a book in college called 'How to Lie with Statistics' which explained how to take objective evidence and skew it without harming its objective reality.

Therefore, all evidence gathered through a faulty mind is suspect.

Fourth, since  you began with 'all believers' (a logical fallacy I would argue), you must then explain how you can disprove all 'specific gods' using logic.

Fifth, the problem of logic rests with the human mind.  Therefore, I must ask: do you think the human mind can understand the entire universe?  If it cannot, then it cannot explain everything with logic, since the mind simply cannot grasp all of the facts and arrive at the conclusions you have using the process you have described, since a great deal of the objective evidence is either incomprehensible due to its magnitude or tampered with due to the subjectivity of human perception.


This is the argument that all believers resort to when they know they've lost. "I know he exists; I have a personal relationship with him; you can't disprove him".

1. Subjective evidence isn't evidence
2. It's been proven how easy the human brain can make up things
3. Actually, your specific God can be disproven using logic

A fine post, Father!  Unfortunately, TryingtoConvert is only going to say something about an "axiom" and leave it at that.  He's not quite convinced yet just how troubling the trustworthiness of the brain is for materialists.
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2011, 02:10:04 PM »

We'll have to wait and see.

I rather do appreciate people who take being rational as a serious pursuit, because I think we are too often ruled by our passions and emotions, neither of which do we spend much time trying to examine.

However, the search for truth requires a certain amount of practicality: a logical argument does not always account for reality.  Lots of things happen that are illogical, which is why we still have problems with our computers!  Wink


A fine post, Father!  Unfortunately, TryingtoConvert is only going to say something about an "axiom" and leave it at that.  He's not quite convinced yet just how troubling the trustworthiness of the brain is for materialists.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
stavros_388
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Nelson
Posts: 1,217



« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2011, 02:21:28 PM »

Sorry to say, but we're all just bags of meat. Even if you feel it necessary to add a soul to that bag of meat, that still makes you a bag of meat, just with an unnecessary piece of supernatural fluff attached.

Ugly... giant... bags of mostly water!

Haha! Brilliant.
Logged

"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2011, 02:33:05 PM »

If you have such utter contempt for what is spiritual, why are you 'trying to convert?'

As I reread your posts, I'm beginning to wonder if you are not a 'reincyberization' of "Stick Man"...


Sorry to say, but we're all just bags of meat. Even if you feel it necessary to add a soul to that bag of meat, that still makes you a bag of meat, just with an unnecessary piece of supernatural fluff attached.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,034


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2011, 04:31:58 PM »

For the benefit of the doubt, I think he is trying to convert, but unable to understand our point of view, and so challenges it to see what answer we can give him.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,552



« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2011, 04:37:26 PM »

For the benefit of the doubt, I think he is trying to convert, but unable to understand our point of view, and so challenges it to see what answer we can give him.

Fwiw, I remember spending a couple months when I first found out about Orthodoxy being very combative (wait, have I changed?  angel ). My attitude at the time was: if they are who they say they are, they should be able to handle the heat. I eventually came to believe that this was a misguided approach, but I can totally understanding wanting to see how people respond to strong opposition.
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2011, 04:55:52 PM »

I suppose, Asteriktos, that I'm not as optimistic when I see people behave badly in the beginning.  The measure is whether he can take the heat when it is turned back on him.  Most folks who shovel out have difficulties receiving the same treatment in return.  If he can then you may be right.  If he can't, then he's just another, well, I'm sure you know what I mean... Wink

Years ago, I dealt with a lady who was rather famous for screaming at priests.  They were all patient men, and she went through them like a bowling ball through the pins.  I took her abuse the first time, but the second time I matched her tone for tone (without the ad hominems).  She blew through the roof, but afterwards she became one of the most polite people I had to deal with at the time.

So, I can see your point.  Let's wait and see.


Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2011, 05:23:17 PM »

For the benefit of the doubt, I think he is trying to convert, but unable to understand our point of view, and so challenges it to see what answer we can give him.

Fwiw, I remember spending a couple months when I first found out about Orthodoxy being very combative (wait, have I changed?  angel ). My attitude at the time was: if they are who they say they are, they should be able to handle the heat. I eventually came to believe that this was a misguided approach, but I can totally understanding wanting to see how people respond to strong opposition.

Ya, I took the same approach. When I first met with my priest I came to him with a battery of critical questions. Same thing when I first came to these forums.
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2011, 12:38:08 AM »

Sorry to say, but we're all just bags of meat. Even if you feel it necessary to add a soul to that bag of meat, that still makes you a bag of meat, just with an unnecessary piece of supernatural fluff attached.

Mmmm, meat.   I am a bag of meat wrapped in cabbage today (I am what I eat).  There's nothing like being a bag of meat with a supernatural appendage.   
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2011, 12:42:13 AM »

I suppose, Asteriktos, that I'm not as optimistic when I see people behave badly in the beginning.  The measure is whether he can take the heat when it is turned back on him.  Most folks who shovel out have difficulties receiving the same treatment in return.  If he can then you may be right.  If he can't, then he's just another, well, I'm sure you know what I mean... ;)Years ago, I dealt with a lady who was rather famous for screaming at priests.  They were all patient men, and she went through them like a bowling ball through the pins.  I took her abuse the first time, but the second time I matched her tone for tone (without the ad hominems).  She blew through the roof, but afterwards she became one of the most polite people I had to deal with at the time.So, I can see your point.  Let's wait and see.
Good thoughts.  We human beings are sick, deluded people by their own reasonings.  What a wonderful prayer in the prayers after communion that we be delivered from the captivity of our own reasonings.   
Logged
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2011, 06:07:32 PM »

Since nothing with extension in spacetime can have always existed, anything with extension in spacetime has to have been caused to exist, energy included.
You've gussied up Anselm with scientific language, yet you've committed his fallacy of special pleading.
Actually, his syllogisms are Thomistic.
I first read it inhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument#Anselm.27s_argument , Anselm.

You may wish to call it "Thomistic", or what-have-you.  I call it bs, because it's an example of special pleading.

It'd be nice if you addressed that aspect, but I'm sure you have some meeting of world-famous theologians to attend, or something.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.078 seconds with 40 queries.