TryingtoConvert
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« on: January 09, 2011, 04:40:42 PM » |
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Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
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And we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?!
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2011, 05:01:58 PM » |
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Well let's see, a secular movie that includes the pop atheists that tries to debunk Jesus, and yet none of the people interviewed are scholars?
I'll pass.
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“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2011, 05:22:37 PM » |
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watched it on youtube.
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TryingtoConvert
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2011, 05:24:47 PM » |
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watched it on youtube.
And?? |
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FormerReformer
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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2011, 05:36:44 PM » |
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No, but the title does make me ponder as to why the totality of atheist "debunking" can be summed as the following poem:
(With apologies to William Hughes Mearns)
The other day upon the stair
I met a God who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish He'd go away
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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2011, 07:14:59 PM » |
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I was familiar with Brian Flemming from his work with the Rational Response Squad, but I had never gone to the trouble of watching the movie. Before responded I figured I'd watch it on youtube if I could find it. I did find it, but I only made it through about 15 minutes. All the stuff about Paul not having the faintest idea that Jesus was a real man, about early Christianity, etc... come on, that was embarrassingly bad. I'm already familiar with the lack of secular sources mentioning Jesus, with the perceived contradictions in the passion accounts, etc., which is what I assume would eventually come up, so I just couldn't picture myself watching the rest of it.
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2011, 09:11:26 PM » |
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watched it on youtube.
And?? Any specific points about the movie you'd care to discuss? |
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« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 09:11:45 PM by Ortho_cat »
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TryingtoConvert
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2011, 09:21:32 PM » |
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watched it on youtube.
And?? Any specific points about the movie you'd care to discuss? Oh just anything you wanted to point out, just your feelings on it like Asteriktos did. Just curious from a Christian response. |
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sainthieu
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2011, 09:29:40 PM » |
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I was an atheist for years, so I'll pass.
What is your point in all these piffling little atheist posts? You're not a seeker, you're not interested in learning, and you're not convincing anyone here to jump ship--if that's what you intend--so what is your point? Hostility? Boredom? Your efforts here are, from almost every conceivable angle, a complete waste of time.
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TryingtoConvert
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2011, 09:35:15 PM » |
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I was an atheist for years, so I'll pass. What made you convert? |
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biro
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2011, 10:20:25 PM » |
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Sure, I've seen it. Next, they'll be complaining that nobody has video footage of Jesus.  |
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phthalyl.podomatic.com
the-cornet.blogspot.com
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Sleeper
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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2011, 12:24:11 AM » |
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I watched this when I was an atheist and even then found it embarrassing for those involved. It's almost as if the pop atheists today are willfully ignorant about the current state of historical scholarship.
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biro
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2011, 12:27:10 AM » |
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I watched this when I was an atheist and even then found it embarrassing for those involved. It's almost as if the pop atheists today are willfully ignorant about the current state of historical scholarship.
Same here.  |
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phthalyl.podomatic.com
the-cornet.blogspot.com
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Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
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And we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?!
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« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2011, 01:20:55 AM » |
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I watched this when I was an atheist and even then found it embarrassing for those involved. It's almost as if the pop atheists today are willfully ignorant about the current state of historical scholarship.
Forgive my ignorance Sleeper, what exactly is the current state of historical scholarship? Do you feel that it has become much too secularized? Much like the Jesus Seminar? |
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“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
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Sleeper
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2011, 02:01:22 AM » |
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I watched this when I was an atheist and even then found it embarrassing for those involved. It's almost as if the pop atheists today are willfully ignorant about the current state of historical scholarship.
Forgive my ignorance Sleeper, what exactly is the current state of historical scholarship? Do you feel that it has become much too secularized? Much like the Jesus Seminar? Not necessarily. I think there's a lot of value to a purely historical approach to things, where God is not a factor, so to speak. It has its place. My point was that any historian who denies the existence of Jesus of Nazareth is most definitely on the far fringes of current scholarship, to the point that they should be completely ignored. |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2011, 02:05:26 AM » |
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Just to chime in with a few more particulars--I should have said this in my last post so I wasn't going from memory... I think many of the other arguments being used don't stand up, and some of the things I just didn’t understand (e.g. did they really quote Hebrews as though it was an authentic work of Paul? that seems unexpected from a nonbeliever). For more particulars… they were making the point about Paul not know this and that and such and such about Jesus, up till the point of his death. All Paul knew about, they said, was the end of Jesus' life, and didn't even believe that Jesus had been a real man. Yet...
- Paul said that Jesus was "made of a woman" (Gal. 4:4); when speaking of death, sin and salvation Paul spoke of Jesus as though he were a real man, saying for example that: “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:” (Rom. 8:3; cf Rom. 5); and Paul states clearly that Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” (Phil. 2:7) and “God was manifest in the flesh“ (1 Tim. 3:16), and finally: “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Heb. 2:14)
- Paul said that he received the same commandments as other Christians about the Eucharist (1 Cor. 11:23-25)
- Paul brought up a teaching of Jesus, framing it in language that showed he was aware of Jesus' earthly ministry, saying not "Jesus taught me in a vision..." but rather "remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said..." (Acts 20:35)
- Paul listed appearances of Jesus to many people (1 Cor. 15:4-8), speaking as though Jesus had really had an earthly life and then appeared to many afterwards to confirm his resurrection. Also notice the reason that Paul gave for his seeing Jesus in a vision rather than in the flesh and blood, it has nothing to do with Jesus being a phantom or mere idea.
- Acts tells us that Paul didn’t start off on his own, but was brought into the Church by other Christians (Acts 9); Paul says that in order to make sure that he was teaching what Christianity actually taught, he checked with the other Apostles in Jerusalem (Gal. 1:18-19; 2:1); and Paul also reported to the other Christians in Jerusalem about his progress from time to time (Acts 15; 9:6-19; 21:17-19).
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Ambrose of Milan
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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2011, 04:27:55 AM » |
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There are some gross faults but the film does a good job showcasing the errors of protestantism.
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