OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 17, 2014, 05:46:00 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags CHAT Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: About Kaaba  (Read 344 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
andrewlya
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christianity is not a religion,it is a relationship with God
Posts: 322


Christian all my life and is still learning


« on: February 13, 2014, 04:13:56 PM »

Hi,
what is a historical take on the Kaaba in Mecca? Muslims say that Kaaba The Kaaba that was constructed by Prophets Ibrahim and Ismail.

What do we, as Orthodox, know about this allegation?
Logged

I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all the people
age234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 551


« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2014, 04:21:45 PM »

St. John of Damascus has this to say:

Quote
They furthermore accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed, but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabár. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

Based on this, we would question the assertion that Abraham built it, and we would say it has ties to pre-Islamic Arab paganism.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 04:23:24 PM by age234 » Logged
andrewlya
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christianity is not a religion,it is a relationship with God
Posts: 322


Christian all my life and is still learning


« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2014, 04:27:42 PM »

Oh,thank you that's interesting. Also, they worship towards Kaabah as if God lives there, but God is everywhere around us...
Logged

I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all the people
xOrthodox4Christx
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 1,926


xOrthodox4Christx
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2014, 04:32:58 PM »

Hi,
what is a historical take on the Kaaba in Mecca? Muslims say that Kaaba The Kaaba that was constructed by Prophets Ibrahim and Ismail.

What do we, as Orthodox, know about this allegation?

The black stone is a meteorite that Muslims venerate.
Logged

My posting on this forum is currently on hiatus, until mid-June 2014.

Have a nice spring. Smiley
xOrthodox4Christx
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 1,926


xOrthodox4Christx
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2014, 04:34:44 PM »

St. John of Damascus has this to say:

Quote
They furthermore accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed, but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabár. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

Based on this, we would question the assertion that Abraham built it, and we would say it has ties to pre-Islamic Arab paganism.

The same guy I mentioned in another thread, al-Tabari came up with the idea that Abraham lived in Mecca and made the Kaaba. It's not in the Qur'an... that I know of.
Logged

My posting on this forum is currently on hiatus, until mid-June 2014.

Have a nice spring. Smiley
andrewlya
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christianity is not a religion,it is a relationship with God
Posts: 322


Christian all my life and is still learning


« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2014, 04:35:34 PM »

Hi,
what is a historical take on the Kaaba in Mecca? Muslims say that Kaaba The Kaaba that was constructed by Prophets Ibrahim and Ismail.

What do we, as Orthodox, know about this allegation?

The black stone is a meteorite that Muslims venerate.
Dont they call it the House of God?
They call us pagans whereas, they venerate and pray towards a giant stone...
Logged

I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all the people
andrewlya
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christianity is not a religion,it is a relationship with God
Posts: 322


Christian all my life and is still learning


« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2014, 04:36:29 PM »

St. John of Damascus has this to say:

Quote
They furthermore accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed, but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabár. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

Based on this, we would question the assertion that Abraham built it, and we would say it has ties to pre-Islamic Arab paganism.

The same guy I mentioned in another thread, al-Tabari came up with the idea that Abraham lived in Mecca and made the Kaaba. It's not in the Qur'an... that I know of.
If it's not in the Qur'an, it must be in one of their Hadith's..
Logged

I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all the people
xOrthodox4Christx
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 1,926


xOrthodox4Christx
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2014, 04:48:20 PM »

Hi,
what is a historical take on the Kaaba in Mecca? Muslims say that Kaaba The Kaaba that was constructed by Prophets Ibrahim and Ismail.

What do we, as Orthodox, know about this allegation?

The black stone is a meteorite that Muslims venerate.
Dont they call it the House of God?
They call us pagans whereas, they venerate and pray towards a giant stone...

In Islam every mosque is a house of god. Also, in Islam the entire world is a mosque.

Quote from: Muhammad in Sahih Muslim 1057
The earth is a mosque for you, so wherever you are at the time of prayer, pray there.
Logged

My posting on this forum is currently on hiatus, until mid-June 2014.

Have a nice spring. Smiley
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,069


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2014, 04:49:23 PM »

St. John of Damascus has this to say:

Quote
They furthermore accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed, but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabár. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

Based on this, we would question the assertion that Abraham built it, and we would say it has ties to pre-Islamic Arab paganism.

The same guy I mentioned in another thread, al-Tabari came up with the idea that Abraham lived in Mecca and made the Kaaba. It's not in the Qur'an... that I know of.
It's in 2:127.

"And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing."
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
xOrthodox4Christx
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 1,926


xOrthodox4Christx
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2014, 04:54:50 PM »

St. John of Damascus has this to say:

Quote
They furthermore accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed, but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabár. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

Based on this, we would question the assertion that Abraham built it, and we would say it has ties to pre-Islamic Arab paganism.

The same guy I mentioned in another thread, al-Tabari came up with the idea that Abraham lived in Mecca and made the Kaaba. It's not in the Qur'an... that I know of.
It's in 2:127.

"And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing."

Hmm... but that passage is bereft of context and requires lots of interpretation to get to a specific 'house' in Mecca, I think.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 04:55:03 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

My posting on this forum is currently on hiatus, until mid-June 2014.

Have a nice spring. Smiley
Theophilos78
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Yahwist-Apostolic Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 1,999



« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2014, 04:57:30 PM »

Oh,thank you that's interesting. Also, they worship towards Kaabah as if God lives there, but God is everywhere around us...

I think you'll enjoy this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW6AZ38CPTQ
Wink
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Theophilos78
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Yahwist-Apostolic Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 1,999



« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2014, 05:01:13 PM »

St. John of Damascus has this to say:

Quote
They furthermore accuse us of being idolaters, because we venerate the cross, which they abominate. And we answer them: ‘How is it, then, that you rub yourselves against a stone in your Ka’ba and kiss and embrace it?’ Then some of them say that Abraham had relations with Agar upon it, but others say that he tied the camel to it, when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. And we answer them: ‘Since Scripture says that the mountain was wooded and had trees from which Abraham cut wood for the holocaust and laid it upon Isaac, and then he left the asses behind with the two young men, why talk nonsense? For in that place neither is it thick with trees nor is there passage for asses.’ And they are embarrassed, but they still assert that the stone is Abraham’s. Then we say: ‘Let it be Abraham’s, as you so foolishly say. Then, just because Abraham had relations with a woman on it or tied a camel to it, you are not ashamed to kiss it, yet you blame us for venerating the cross of Christ by which the power of the demons and the deceit of the Devil was destroyed.’ This stone that they talk about is a head of that Aphrodite whom they used to worship and whom they called Khabár. Even to the present day, traces of the carving are visible on it to careful observers.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

Based on this, we would question the assertion that Abraham built it, and we would say it has ties to pre-Islamic Arab paganism.

The same guy I mentioned in another thread, al-Tabari came up with the idea that Abraham lived in Mecca and made the Kaaba. It's not in the Qur'an... that I know of.
It's in 2:127.

"And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing."

Hmm... but that passage is bereft of context and requires lots of interpretation to get to a specific 'house' in Mecca, I think.

According to the Qur'an, Abraham said this:

Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful. (Surah 14:37)

The Kaaba was considered the House of Allah long before Muhammad, Allah being the supreme deity of Arabian paganism.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Hinterlander
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Protestant congregant, Student of Orthodoxy
Posts: 503



« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2014, 06:01:33 PM »

Hi,
what is a historical take on the Kaaba in Mecca? Muslims say that Kaaba The Kaaba that was constructed by Prophets Ibrahim and Ismail.

What do we, as Orthodox, know about this allegation?

The black stone is a meteorite that Muslims venerate.
Dont they call it the House of God?
They call us pagans whereas, they venerate and pray towards a giant stone...

The meteorite is in the corner on the wall of the Kaaba.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 06:02:57 PM by Hinterlander » Logged
vasily
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox church in america
Posts: 145



« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2014, 10:31:00 AM »

Were the Prophets Ibrahim and Ismail in Arabia or Mecca?
Logged
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,069


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2014, 10:35:22 AM »

Were the Prophets Ibrahim and Ismail in Arabia or Mecca?
Is Mecca not in Arabia?
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,272


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2014, 11:11:16 AM »

I've read there might be an icon of the Theotokos in there.

Quote
"Apart from the icon of the Virgin Mary and the child Jesus, and a painting of an old man, said to be Abraham, the walls inside [Kaaba] had been covered with pictures of pagan deities. Placing his hand protectively over the icon, the Prophet told `Uthman to see that all other paintings, except that of Abraham, were effaced."

Martin Lings, "Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources"
 p.300, ref: al-Waqidi, Kitab al-Maghazi 834, and Azraqi, Akhbar Makkah vol. 1, p. 107.

Quote
"... pictures of the prophets and pictures of trees and of angels. Among them there was a picture of Ibrahim as of an elderly man, drawing lots with arrow lots, and the picture of Jesus, the son of Mary, and of his mother and a picture with angels."

 Al-Azraqi according to the Arabic text edited by Ferdinand Wuestenfeld, Chroniken der Stadt Mekka, Band 1, Leipzig
 1858, reprint Beyrouth 1964, p. 110 s.

Quote
"On the day of the conquest of Mecca the Prophet entered the House [Kaaba] and sent al-Fadl ibn al-Abbas ibn Abdalmuttalib to get water from the well of Zemzem. He ordered to bring pieces of cloth and to imbue them with water and then he commanded to wash off these pictures, as it was done. He stretched his arms, however, over the picture of Jesus, the son of Mary, and of his mother and said: 'Wash off all except what is under my hands!' But eventually he took away his hands away from Jesus, the son of Mary, and his mother."

 Al-Azraqi p. 111, cf. p. 76
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
vasily
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox church in america
Posts: 145



« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2014, 09:04:41 AM »

They could have been in some areas of Arabia and not in Mecca. Anyone have an answer?
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.091 seconds with 45 queries.