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Author Topic: Fraternitas Sacerdotalis Sancti Petri  (Read 2153 times) Average Rating: 0
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romanbyzantium
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« on: April 25, 2004, 11:34:57 PM »

Ben,

What do you think about this order of priest. I like them very much and they are very holy and extremely devout catholics. They put to shame alot of other priest, except Opus Dei.

A lot of liberals in the church believe that the current pope has stack up the cards in favor of a hardliner after he dies. They fear that this pope is trying to reverse the progress ( choking Shocked) that came out of vatican 2.

They site the personal prelature of Opus Dei and their participation in the most powerful position of the church and such priestly order as "Fraternitas Sacerdotalis Sancti Petri".

Any comments.

http://fssp.org/

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JoeZollars
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2004, 11:48:06 PM »

the FSSP parishes I have attended seem to attract a number of, well lets just say un-traditional people (charismatics, women in very unmodest dress etc.) not to mention people who prefer the Latin Mass merely for its aesthetics.  I do not know to what extent these folk end up in the FSSP seminary program or if for that matter how they are rooted out.

That being said, my impression of every TLM parish/institution that I have had the pleasure of visiting for the Holy Sacrifice apear to be little more than a ghetto for trouble making traditionalists (I know this first hand from how I and some good friends were treated when we were under Rome) by Bishops who would really prefer the Church to go further than it has.  This explains the new Latin Mass parish in Phoenix as well according to some close friends who are planning on attending it.

I doupt very highly if the status quo changes after JPII reposes, but I would rather like to be proven wrong.

Joe Zollars
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Ben
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2004, 11:54:09 PM »

I am not a fan of FSSP.

Let me explain......

The Society of Saint Peter is founded upon more than questionable principles, for the following reasons:

-FSSP was founded at the same time Archbishop Lefebvre was "excomunicated". It is clear that FSSP is a ploy to keep people away from the Society of Saint Pius X (for some Bishops allow it only where there is a Society of Saint Pius X Mass center in the area)

-FSSP is intended only for those who feel attached to the traditional Latin Mass but nevertheless accept the doctrinal rectitude and juridical right of the Novus Ordo Missae, Vatican II, and all official orientations corresponding to these.

-One might also mention that at the vast majority of FSSP chapels, only the Mass is celebrated in the traditional form, while the other sacraments are not.

With this in mind I have a bad taste in my mouth for FSSP, but I am thankful we can attend the Tridentine Mass without being labeled schismatics by Rome.

I have only attended a FSSP parish twice in my life. It was a very nice church, however few women wore veils, and many men were in really casual clothing. Not to mention women in pants.... Sad

I would also like to say that this is not a Catholic board...for Catholic topics....this is a ORTHODOX and Catholic discussion board. This topic has nothing to do with Orthodoxy, and I don't think you should have posted it. However, I would love to get more into FSSP with you in private, perhaps through email.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2004, 12:01:30 AM by Ben » Logged

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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2004, 11:54:22 PM »

the FSSP parishes I have attended seem to attract a number of, well lets just say un-traditional people (charismatics, women in very unmodest dress etc.) not to mention people who prefer the Latin Mass merely for its aesthetics.  I do not know to what extent these folk end up in the FSSP seminary program or if for that matter how they are rooted out.

That being said, my impression of every TLM parish/institution that I have had the pleasure of visiting for the Holy Sacrifice apear to be little more than a ghetto for trouble making traditionalists (I know this first hand from how I and some good friends were treated when we were under Rome) by Bishops who would really prefer the Church to go further than it has.  This explains the new Latin Mass parish in Phoenix as well according to some close friends who are planning on attending it.

I doupt very highly if the status quo changes after JPII reposes, but I would rather like to be proven wrong.

Joe Zollars

You must be kidding me. Charismatic in a FSSP parish. Highly unlikely and doubtful.

Do you have any more nice things to say about your former faith?

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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2004, 11:56:07 PM »

I am not a fan of FSSP.

Let me explain......

The Society of Saint Peter is founded upon more than questionable principles, for the following reasons:

-FSSP was founded at the same time Archbishop Lefebvre was "excomunicated. It is clear that FSSP is a ploy to keep people away from the Society of Saint Pius X (for many Bishops allow it only where there is a Society of Saint Pius X Mass center in the area)

-FSSP is intended only for those who feel attached to the traditional Latin Mass but nevertheless accept the doctrinal rectitude and juridical right of the Novus Ordo Missae, Vatican II, and all official orientations corresponding to these.

-One might also mention that at the vast majorit of FSSP chapels, only the Mass is said in the traditional form, while the other sacraments are not.

With this in mind I have a made taste in my mouth for FSSP, but I am thankful we can attend the Tridentine Mass without being labeled schismatics by Rome.

I would also like to say that this is not a Catholic board...for Catholic topics....this is a ORTHODOX and Catholic discussion board. This topic has nothing to do with Orthodoxy, and I don't think you should have posted it. However, I would love to get more into FSSP with you in private, perhaps through email.


sure. i would love to continue this in private.  write me email. lets talk.

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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2004, 12:06:43 AM »

RB:

I have seen it with my own eyes.  Now I did not say that they were supported by the Priest in any way whatsoever, but I hve seen them coming.  Usually, thankfully, when they begin to tout their rhetoric they are privatly asked to cease and/or leave.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2004, 10:00:29 AM »

I have never been to an F.S.S.P. chapel, but I have met four F.S.S.P. seminarians.

The F.S.S.P. is in a difficult position.  They were founded by former S.S.P.X members who wanted to remain in unambiguous communion with the Roman Church while still celebrating the traditional Roman Mass.

They are assaulted by almost everyone.  The S.S.P.X adherents attack them for compromising with "modernist Rome".  They are also attacked from the left for not supporting the "wonderful" liturgical developments forced on us after Vatican II.  The bishops are not very supportive of them.  In the U.S., they have not been allowed to set up a chapel in any of the major Sees.  Most of their chapels are in smaller dioceses.

They have had some internal conflicts, but I everything I've heard from those who attend their chapels has almost universally been positive.  They love the Church, and they love the Church's traditional liturgy.

Also, from what I've heard, ALL of the sacraments are celebrated using the traditional liturgical books, not just the Mass.  Their priests are ordained using the traditional rite.  Their confirmations and baptisms are done using the traditional Roman Ritual.  I know that they celebrate the Divine Office using the 1960 Roman Breviary (they have re-published it).

Jason
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Ben
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2004, 07:15:34 PM »


Quote
The F.S.S.P. is in a difficult position.  They were founded by former S.S.P.X members who wanted to remain in unambiguous communion with the Roman Church while still celebrating the traditional Roman Mass.

I hadn't heard it was set up by former SSPX priests, but even if it was it makes there situation no less difficult. They are in totaly union with Rome, and have Rome's blessing and approval. The way I see FSSP in a difficult position is for the reasons it was founded.

Quote
The S.S.P.X adherents attack them for compromising with "modernist Rome".
 

So very true. Those who attend SSPX chapels are told by their priests never to attend a FSSP church, for they have compromised holy tradition in their acceptance of the Novus Ordo Mass, and in their total accpetance of the Vatican II and Post-Vatican II reforms.

Quote
They are also attacked from the left for not supporting the "wonderful" liturgical developments forced on us after Vatican II.
 

This is interesting. This han't been my expirence, but I am sure Novus Ordo loving ecumenists who despise groups like SSPX, don't like the idea of Catholic tradition being preserved too well.

Quote
The bishops are not very supportive of them.  In the U.S., they have not been allowed to set up a chapel in any of the major Sees.  Most of their chapels are in smaller dioceses.

I have found the majority of FSSP parishes to be in cities or towns that have SSPX chapels, or other traditionalist groups with a strong pressence. This should give us some idea of what exactly the purpose of FSSP is.


Quote
Also, from what I've heard, ALL of the sacraments are celebrated using the traditional liturgical books, not just the Mass.  Their priests are ordained using the traditional rite.  Their confirmations and baptisms are done using the traditional Roman Ritual.  I know that they celebrate the Divine Office using the 1960 Roman Breviary (they have re-published it).

I know that the priests are ordained in the Traditional rite, and the Eucharist is of course celebrated according to the Misal of 1962, but from what I have heard Confession and Confirmation are not celebrated in the traditional rite.
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« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2004, 11:42:00 PM »

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I have found the majority of FSSP parishes to be in cities or towns that have SSPX chapels, or other traditionalist groups with a strong pressence. This should give us some idea of what exactly the purpose of FSSP is.

In your opinion, are they there to snipe those Catholics who are attached to the traditional rites of the church?

Or, perhaps it could be that the FSSP sets up a parishes in places with traditionalist chapels (independant, SSPX, etc) because they know that there are obviously people in those places who attend those chapels because they prefer to worship using the traditional form, but the people who fill the pews in the independant, SSPX, etc. chapels have not previously been able to worship using said forms while being 100% united to the Holy See  and because the FSSP comes to town, they now have the option to, which they previously did not have....

Maybe, or maybe not....

But it does make sense to set up a parish that uses the traditional rites of the Catholic Church where people obviously desire it, no?

Sorry, I had to play devil's advocate.  :cwm30:

Please don't take this post as my being anti-SSPX, because that is not the case. I have always been fond of their plight and I sympathize with their cause and I both respect and admire Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. After all, if there was no SSPX, there never would be a FSSP.

In Christ,
Aaron

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Ben
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« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2004, 12:28:48 AM »

Quote
Or, perhaps it could be that the FSSP sets up a parishes in places with traditionalist chapels (independant, SSPX, etc) because they know that there are obviously people in those places who attend those chapels because they prefer to worship using the traditional form, but the people who fill the pews in the independant, SSPX, etc. chapels have not previously been able to worship using said forms while being 100% united to the Holy See  and because the FSSP comes to town, they now have the option to, which they previously did not have...

Oh this could be a possibilty, and probably is part of the reasons FSSP churches are in such areas. But I still think it is much more than that. I still think the purpose of FSSP is to get people away from SSPX, while at the same time pleasing Catholics who love the old Mass. FSSP isn't all bad, in many ways they have helped the Chruch greatly, and provided me with a good holy Mass when I could't get to my parish. But I really queston the motives of the Vatican, and the way that they are using FSSP.

Quote
But it does make sense to set up a parish that uses the traditional rites of the Catholic Church where people obviously desire it, no?

Of course it makes sense. But it also makes sense for FSSP to set up chapels where there is a strong pressence of SSPX.

 
Quote
After all, if there was no SSPX, there never would be a FSSP.

Isn't that the truth!
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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2004, 12:50:36 AM »

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But I still think it is much more than that. I still think the purpose of FSSP is to get people away from SSPX, while at the same time pleasing Catholics who love the old Mass.

No doubt!

I believe that is the case because no matter what any SSPX apologist or canonist may say, according to the Holy Father (who according to Catholic beliefs has the last and FINAL word) the SSPX is in schism and it would make sense for Holy Mother the Church to keep her children near to her protective bosom and out of schism.

That being said, many canonists and apologists do make an excellent case for the SSPX itself, but the fact remains that the Pope has the final word and what he says goes.

Please take note that I am not talking about the layfolk who attend the SSPX's chapels, because the Church has already spoken in that the laity may attend the chapels, so long as they do not adhere to a schismatic mindset, in which case they too would be in schism and outside the Church.

That is how I understand the situation, so please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.

In Christ,
Aaron
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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2004, 01:05:37 AM »



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I believe that is the case because no matter what any SSPX apologist or canonist may say, according to the Holy Father (who according to Catholic beliefs has the last and FINAL word) the SSPX is in schism and it would make sense for Holy Mother the Church to keep her children near to her protective bosom and out of schism.

That being said, many canonists and apologists do make an excellent case for the SSPX itself, but the fact remains that the Pope has the final word and what he says goes.

As you said many canonists do make an excellent case for the SSPX. But don't emphasize "what the Pope says, goes" too much, remember the Pope is not infallible in his personal opinions.  And remember that the Pope never formally excommunicated Archbishop Lefebvre or SSPX, he simply said an excommunication had occured ipso facto, which was false because Archbishop Lefebvre acted in a case of a case of necessity, which according to Canon Law absolved him of any penalties foreseen by the law (Can. 1323, 1983 Code).

I encourage you to read what I have written on this topic on my MSN group:

http://groups.msn.com/CATHOLIC101/sspx.msnw

http://groups.msn.com/CATHOLIC101/sspxschismaticornot.msnw

I also suggest, if you haven't already, read the Consencration Sermon of Archbishop Lefebvre, June 30th, 1988:

http://www.romancatholicism.org/lef-cons-sermon.html
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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2004, 01:50:56 AM »

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As you said many canonists do make an excellent case for the SSPX. But don't emphasize "what the Pope says, goes" too much, remember the Pope is not infallible in his personal opinions.  And remember that the Pope never formally excommunicated Archbishop Lefebvre or SSPX, he simply said an excommunication had occured ipso facto, which was false because Archbishop Lefebvre acted in a case of a case of necessity, which according to Canon Law absolved him of any penalties foreseen by the law (Can. 1323, 1983 Code).

I understand what you are saying, but if the schism of the SSPX is merely the Holy Father's opinion, then why all the fuss?

We could truly get into the excommunication having been based upon fale presumptions, but I am sure that we wouldn't be treading any new ground on the issue and merely repeating what others have said.

I do wish that there was a single voice coming out of Rome in regards to the status of SSPX, but unfortunately I do not foresee that happening any time soon because then someone would have to admit that they may have made a mistake and were wrong and we all know how hard that is.

Please let me re-state that I do sympathize with the SSPX and I understand where they are coming from and I only wish that this whole unfortunate mess could have been avoided in the first place. Which it could have, if only Rome would have let faithful Catholics have access to the traditional rites, but they didn't and the SSPX filled the void that many felt and they provided the traditional sacraments and Holy Mass produced many a saint and that many Catholics were and still are attached to.

I myself have attended the Tridentine Mass on many occasions at a local independant chapel and I can say that I can and do appreciate the traditional Mass and I shall for the rest of my life.

My grandmother's uncle was a Roman Catholic priest and I often think that he said the exact same Mass for all of his years of service to the Church and that is yet another reason I am fond of the Holy Tridentine Mass.

In Christ,
Aaron
« Last Edit: April 28, 2004, 01:51:51 AM by Arystarcus » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2004, 12:55:24 PM »

While I sympathize with what the FSSP clergy are trying to do, I do not believe their establishment by the RC establishment (Pope included) was done out of some great love for old fashioned Roman Catholicism.   It was done, as others have pointed out, to syphon support away from the SSPX.  In the end it didn't work too well, and this seems to be part of the reason why it (FSSP) has begun to suffer more and more under the RC heirarchy.   I feel sorry for these people, but have no illusions about why they were created.

I sympathize for RC "traditionalists" in general.  Unfortunately, they're barking up the wrong tree, in so far as they're convinced that the phenomenon of Popes as "change agents" began with Vatican II - the truth is this process has been on going, in varying degrees of intensity, for the last 1000 years.  The SSPX, FSSP, etc. are all against "modernism" - unfortunately, Papism itself is the original modernism, humanism, etc.

Seraphim
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