OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 26, 2014, 08:27:21 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Church of Christ Denomanation Inquirer  (Read 1928 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
mozartboy02
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Seeking
Posts: 12


« on: January 03, 2011, 02:52:31 AM »

Hi!  Allow me to introduce myself.

     I grew up in the denomination called the churches of Christ, but have been researching Orthodoxy these past couple of years, and have become convinced of the Truth of it.  However, I'm still attending a COC because every time I try to "make the break" so to speak, I end up wimping out.
Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2011, 04:27:10 AM »

Hi!  Allow me to introduce myself.

     I grew up in the denomination called the churches of Christ, but have been researching Orthodoxy these past couple of years, and have become convinced of the Truth of it.  However, I'm still attending a COC because every time I try to "make the break" so to speak, I end up wimping out.


I could be wrong, but I think he is former COC:
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/stevethebuilder (Steve the builder)
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2011, 05:04:27 AM »

Hi!  Allow me to introduce myself.

     I grew up in the denomination called the churches of Christ, but have been researching Orthodoxy these past couple of years, and have become convinced of the Truth of it.  However, I'm still attending a COC because every time I try to "make the break" so to speak, I end up wimping out.

Welcome to the forum! Smiley Have you had a chance to visit an Orthodox church yet? Also, I couldn't help noticing your username. Are you a classical piano fan by chance? If so, we have a thread dedicated to it here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30885.0.html





« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 05:06:11 AM by Ortho_cat » Logged
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,449



« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2011, 01:20:53 PM »

Hi!  Allow me to introduce myself.

     I grew up in the denomination called the churches of Christ, but have been researching Orthodoxy these past couple of years, and have become convinced of the Truth of it.  However, I'm still attending a COC because every time I try to "make the break" so to speak, I end up wimping out.

It's a journey. Give it time. Have you been to an Orthodox church or a Divine Liturgy? Why not start with simply attending an Orthodox church?
(Believe me, I understand the difficulty. I was Lutheran born and bred, and I never thought I would be anything else. It took me almost a year of attending an Orthodox Church before I was chrismated.)
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Tikhon.of.Colorado
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,363



« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2011, 01:46:50 PM »

Hi!  Allow me to introduce myself.

     I grew up in the denomination called the churches of Christ, but have been researching Orthodoxy these past couple of years, and have become convinced of the Truth of it.  However, I'm still attending a COC because every time I try to "make the break" so to speak, I end up wimping out.

It's a journey. Give it time. Have you been to an Orthodox church or a Divine Liturgy? Why not start with simply attending an Orthodox church?
(Believe me, I understand the difficulty. I was Lutheran born and bred, and I never thought I would be anything else. It took me almost a year of attending an Orthodox Church before I was chrismated.)
I totally agree with KatherineofDixie,and would just like to add that you could alwayse attend a service that's not at the same time as your COC services, that way, it's not like your "cheating" on your Church.
Logged

"It is true that I am not always faithful, but I never lose courage, I leave myself in the Arms of Our Lord." - St. Thérèse of Lisieux
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2011, 01:48:47 PM »

Welcome!

I was never a member of the Chuch of Christ denomination, but I did spend some time in a Disciples of Christ parish, and still maintain contact with the pastor there (who is also a relative of mine). They're both denominations that grew out of the Restorationist movement.


As was said here, it's a journey. I've been attending an Orthodox parish for over a year, and yet I have only committed thus far to the catechumenate. I still have a few months before I will be baptized. I've also spoken with people who make that timeframe look like a sprint into Orthodoxy, as they've taken many years to decide to convert.

I would encourage you to attend a Divine Liturgy, if you have not yet, and speak with a priest. I would also ask you, since you say you keep "wimping out." What do you think the root of your "wimping out" is? Perhaps those of us here can assist you in getting over the issue.  Wink
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
St. Christopher
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 101


« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2011, 07:23:55 PM »

Hi Mozartboy!
Logged
quietmorning
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,378


St. Photini


WWW
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2011, 10:08:45 PM »

Hi!  Allow me to introduce myself.

     I grew up in the denomination called the churches of Christ, but have been researching Orthodoxy these past couple of years, and have become convinced of the Truth of it.  However, I'm still attending a COC because every time I try to "make the break" so to speak, I end up wimping out.

Seems to me like you've already displayed quite a bit of courage just in doing research! Smiley   He who is faithful will make a way for you, don't worry.  You're on His path and in His time - it's all up to Him.  When it's time, you may find you have no other choice but to go the way He is leading you.  He's good like that.  Or He may have something completely different up His sleeve and it may happen in another way, who knows.  Keep seeking His Kingdom and His righteousness and everything else will fall completely and beautifully into place.  Any bumps and bruises along the way, just keep in mind that you share in the sufferings of Christ - and count it a blessing.

I'll be praying for you - as I'm sure all these other wonderful people will be.

Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
Clancy Boy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 113


« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2011, 05:18:34 AM »

Hi!  Allow me to introduce myself.

     I grew up in the denomination called the churches of Christ, but have been researching Orthodoxy these past couple of years, and have become convinced of the Truth of it.  However, I'm still attending a COC because every time I try to "make the break" so to speak, I end up wimping out.

Sounds like your conversion is inevitable.  Just go for it.
Logged
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,449



« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2011, 12:35:31 PM »

I've also spoken with people who make that timeframe look like a sprint into Orthodoxy, as they've taken many years to decide to convert.


True. I know a guy who attended an Orthodox Church for ten or so years before converting. He was referred to (affectionately) as the "Oldest Living Catechemen."
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Clancy Boy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 113


« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2011, 10:41:46 AM »

I've also spoken with people who make that timeframe look like a sprint into Orthodoxy, as they've taken many years to decide to convert.


True. I know a guy who attended an Orthodox Church for ten or so years before converting. He was referred to (affectionately) as the "Oldest Living Catechemen."

I think Emperor Constantine has him beat, but that's a long time.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,221


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2011, 10:42:48 AM »

Welcome to the forum, mozartboy02 Smiley
Logged
mozartboy02
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Seeking
Posts: 12


« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2011, 07:35:52 PM »

Well, I'm an elder's son, so I couldn't "just stop going."  The COC is very big into "disfellowshipping" (sort of like excommunication), I'm just not quite sure how exactly to proceed.  Plus I can't drive.  I'm actually off at vocational school right now, but now I'm even further from a chuch (but there is one a little over an hour away I'm gonna try to contact).  I just hate feeling like I lead some kind of "double life."
Logged
mozartboy02
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Seeking
Posts: 12


« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2011, 07:38:17 PM »

Hi!  Allow me to introduce myself.

     I grew up in the denomination called the churches of Christ, but have been researching Orthodoxy these past couple of years, and have become convinced of the Truth of it.  However, I'm still attending a COC because every time I try to "make the break" so to speak, I end up wimping out.

Welcome to the forum! Smiley Have you had a chance to visit an Orthodox church yet? Also, I couldn't help noticing your username. Are you a classical piano fan by chance? If so, we have a thread dedicated to it here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30885.0.html







Not really a specific fan of piano, but I do enjoy classical music in general.  Then again, I'm pretty open in my music tastes.  Pretty much, I just thought it sounded good.
Logged
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2011, 01:28:07 AM »

Well, I'm an elder's son, so I couldn't "just stop going."  The COC is very big into "disfellowshipping" (sort of like excommunication), I'm just not quite sure how exactly to proceed.  Plus I can't drive.  I'm actually off at vocational school right now, but now I'm even further from a chuch (but there is one a little over an hour away I'm gonna try to contact).  I just hate feeling like I lead some kind of "double life."

I was raised CofC, father is an elder and part-time evangelist, grandfather was a missionary and preacher his whole life, I'm also an alumni of ACU and have been Orthodox now for almost 19 years. My godson is a former CofC youth minister who took something like 15 years to make his way to Orthodoxy.

I don't actively participate here much anymore, but if I can help with any questions or just to be a sounding board, feel free to contact me.

The one thing I can tell you definitely is that the transition is hard--but it is worth it.
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
Sakeneko
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 146



« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2011, 02:01:54 AM »

Hey, Mozartboy.  I hang out here occasionally too.  (This is Catherine Jefferson from Coc to Orthodoxy board.)  I know of a number of other former CofC people who are Orthodox as well.  Bet some others are here. Wink
Logged
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,653


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2011, 05:59:30 PM »

hi, brother,
i used to have a friend from that church many years ago (she joined a baptist church), so i understand it is not easy to leave.
i suggest u look for a church that has services that are not on sunday, maybe one that is not far from a shopping center.
then you can tell them you are going shopping (be sure to actually do this after the service, it is not good to lie).

there is nothing wrong with hiding a part of the truth when you are not free. imagine you are actually in prison.
would you tell the prison guard, 'excuse me while i dig an escape tunnel?'
many Christians in many parts of the world have to hide part of their faith activities in order to avoid death, there is nothing wrong with this.

i suggest you look on the internet for church contacts near you, maybe you will find someone you can talk to on the 'phone for advice.
in many places where there is no orthodox church, there are smaller groups which meet for prayer.
keep searching, and above all, pray. read the Bible without the study guides produced by your church, and trust God Himself, who loves you dearly, to show you the way.
seek and you WILL find.
Logged
myrrhbear
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 194


Trust in God


« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2011, 07:33:05 PM »

It may take time, but keep digging! I, too, was raised in the C of C, and my largest hurdle was overcoming an anti-Catholic bias. I stepped back, gave myself "permission" to question everything I was taught and tried to look at things as the first disciples must have. The way became clear, but it took time to absorb it. It's a life-time journey and wonderful!
Logged

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.
KBN1
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: EO
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 888



« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2011, 07:56:43 PM »

Welcome Mozartboy02!

I too was raised in a Church of Christ.  Are you instrumental or non-instrumental?  Not that it matters much, just curious.  What do you think is at the root of your "wimping out"?  Interestingly enough, when former pastors found out that I was converting to Orthodoxy their main objection was that the Orthodox church puts too much importance on the doctrine of the trinity.
Logged
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,299



« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2011, 08:04:26 PM »

Welcome Mozartboy02!

I too was raised in a Church of Christ.  Are you instrumental or non-instrumental?  Not that it matters much, just curious.  What do you think is at the root of your "wimping out"?  Interestingly enough, when former pastors found out that I was converting to Orthodoxy their main objection was that the Orthodox church puts too much importance on the doctrine of the trinity.
Really? That's surprising. I thought they would have had bigger objections than that. My cousin and her husband belong to one (he's some sort of elder or some such thing) and they have four white walls with pews.

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
KBN1
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: EO
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 888



« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2011, 08:10:58 PM »

Welcome Mozartboy02!

I too was raised in a Church of Christ.  Are you instrumental or non-instrumental?  Not that it matters much, just curious.  What do you think is at the root of your "wimping out"?  Interestingly enough, when former pastors found out that I was converting to Orthodoxy their main objection was that the Orthodox church puts too much importance on the doctrine of the trinity.
Really? That's surprising. I thought they would have had bigger objections than that. My cousin and her husband belong to one (he's some sort of elder or some such thing) and they have four white walls with pews.

In Christ,
Andrew

haha.  Oh, they had the usual "idolatry" objections, but I think they were smarter than to start with that one because their churches had big crosses above the stage and banners with images of doves. 
Logged
mozartboy02
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Seeking
Posts: 12


« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2011, 08:41:18 PM »

Welcome Mozartboy02!

I too was raised in a Church of Christ.  Are you instrumental or non-instrumental?  Not that it matters much, just curious.  What do you think is at the root of your "wimping out"?  Interestingly enough, when former pastors found out that I was converting to Orthodoxy their main objection was that the Orthodox church puts too much importance on the doctrine of the trinity.
Really? That's surprising. I thought they would have had bigger objections than that. My cousin and her husband belong to one (he's some sort of elder or some such thing) and they have four white walls with pews.

In Christ,
Andrew


They see it as a "minor" doctrine - they prefer things they can send the Baptists to hell for Smiley (really, how can the very basics of the nature of God be "minor?").  Plus, some (usually older and more traditional cocers reject the term "Trinity" itself, in favor of "Godhead," because they claim it's not found in the Bible - word games are something else they like.

EDIT:

I was raised non-instrumental, BTW.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 08:42:06 PM by mozartboy02 » Logged
KBN1
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: EO
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 888



« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2011, 08:51:06 PM »

Welcome Mozartboy02!

I too was raised in a Church of Christ.  Are you instrumental or non-instrumental?  Not that it matters much, just curious.  What do you think is at the root of your "wimping out"?  Interestingly enough, when former pastors found out that I was converting to Orthodoxy their main objection was that the Orthodox church puts too much importance on the doctrine of the trinity.
Really? That's surprising. I thought they would have had bigger objections than that. My cousin and her husband belong to one (he's some sort of elder or some such thing) and they have four white walls with pews.

In Christ,
Andrew


They see it as a "minor" doctrine - they prefer things they can send the Baptists to hell for Smiley (really, how can the very basics of the nature of God be "minor?").  Plus, some (usually older and more traditional cocers reject the term "Trinity" itself, in favor of "Godhead," because they claim it's not found in the Bible - word games are something else they like.

EDIT:

I was raised non-instrumental, BTW.

I was raised instrumental.  We left the baptists alone, but had plenty to say about the Methodists and Presbyterians.  Smiley
Logged
Saint Iaint
This Poster Has Ignored Multiple Requests to Behave Better
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Once Delivered
Posts: 625


The Truth Shall Be Reviled


WWW
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2011, 08:53:25 PM »

Hey Mozartboy,

I have a friend who belongs to the so-called 'churches of Christ' that I have discussions (argue) with from time to time...

His biggest objections are:

1. The celibacy of Bishops (Bible clearly says that a Bishop "must be the husband of one wife")

2. Infant Baptism (Only conscious believers can be Baptized)

3. The need for Apostolic succession (For obvious reasons)

May I ask how you've managed to find your way around these obstacles? Perhaps I can use your response to help to convince my friend of the truth...

Thanks (and welcome),

†IC XC†
†NI KA†


Logged

Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute...

Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.
mozartboy02
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Seeking
Posts: 12


« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2011, 10:12:01 PM »

Hey Mozartboy,

I have a friend who belongs to the so-called 'churches of Christ' that I have discussions (argue) with from time to time...

His biggest objections are:

1. The celibacy of Bishops (Bible clearly says that a Bishop "must be the husband of one wife")

I don't know, that was never really an issue for me, but basically, I realized the objection was based on prooftexting one verse (I Tim 4:3), and taking it waaaaaaaaaaay out of context just to have an argument against the "Kath-liks."  There were actual heresies that would have actually been contemporary to St. Timothy, and actually forbade their members from marrying or eating meat, because they saw them as an inherent evil, not as a discipline like the RC and  EO.

Quote from: Saint Iaint


2. Infant Baptism (Only conscious believers can be Baptized)

This was a hard one, but as I realized that adult-only baptism meant that you had to "dangle over the fire" so to speak, not knowing if you were old enough to be baptized, and a lot of worrying if you were "really baptized" later in life.


That was a hard one, but I began to realize that
Quote from: Saint Iaint


3. The need for Apostolic succession (For obvious reasons)

May I ask how you've managed to find your way around these obstacles? Perhaps I can use your response to help to convince my friend of the truth...

Thanks (and welcome),

†IC XC†
†NI KA†





Once "Bible Alone" came apart, the need for Apostolic Succession was obvious to me.  I never really considered the Protestant churches.
Logged
Greywalk
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 20



« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2011, 07:40:37 AM »

I would encourage you as others have, to attend the Liturgy, my journey was 14 years from my protestant roots to my home in the Orthodox Church.  For me, the key was "What is the Church?"  I was raised in a  congregational based polity.  This did not make sense as time worn on.  Once you have tasted the fruits of the Liturgy it is difficult to not make the choice final.  I enjoy the rich heritage I was deprived of through the well meaning efforts of "good men."  My thoughts go with you in your journey and my prayers also.
Logged

Just a poor wayfaring stranger passing through (from an old American Folk song)
St. Christopher
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 101


« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2011, 06:44:29 PM »

Hi, Catherine.
Awesome!  I didn't know how many ex-CofC people are on here.  I'm the St. Christopher from the CofC to EOC Board.
Logged
coC2O
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Self-ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of N. America
Jurisdiction: Wichita and Mid-America
Posts: 8


« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2011, 01:41:01 AM »

Hi!  Allow me to introduce myself.

     I grew up in the denomination called the churches of Christ, but have been researching Orthodoxy these past couple of years, and have become convinced of the Truth of it.  However, I'm still attending a COC because every time I try to "make the break" so to speak, I end up wimping out.
Hi, Mozart. (love your nym)

I came out of the cofC and was a full-blown mutt in the denominational world (born RCC, became "nondenominational Christian", baptized into the cofC [hardline], and then studied my way into the EOC [also spoke with a priest in the Greek Church, who eventually agreed that I would do best in the Self-ruled Antiochian Orthodox Church of North America, seeing as they speak English Smiley ].

The turning point for me came after a simple question.. 'Are the Orthodox considered brethren since they also immersion baptize for the remission of sin?' That was the question that caused me to seriously inquire about the EOC. The first thing I saw was a much deeper understanding of scripture, and not ignoring the "tough" passages. Scripture speaks of Christ's real presence in the Eucharist (thanksgiving) - "This is my body.. This is my blood of the new covenant..". Scripture speaks of all generations calling Mary blessed (Lk 1:48). Scripture speaks of incense being offered everywhere in His name (Mal 1:11). Scripture speaks of elders/presbyters (prests > priests) anointing the sick with oil (Jas 5:14). Scripture speaks of our partaking of the divine nature - theosis (2 Pet 1:4). Scripture speaks of bishops (Acts 1:20; Php 1:1; 1 Tim 3:1,2; 2 Tim 4:22; Tit 1:7; 3:15; 1 Pet 2:25), elders/presbyters (Acts 4:5,8,23; 6:12; 11:30; 14:23; 15:2,4,6,22,23; 16:4; 20:17; 21:18; 22:5; 23:14; 24:1; 25:15; Rom 9:12; 1 Tim 4:14; 5:1,2,17,19; Tit 1:5; Heb 11:2; Jas 5:14; 1 Pet 5:1,5; 2 Jn 1:1; 3 Jn 1:1), and deacons (Php 1:1; 1 Tim 3:8,10,12,13). Scripture speaks of following the tradition of the Apostles, and to imitate them (1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you that ye remember me in all things, and hold fast the traditions, even as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which they received of us.

2 Thessalonians 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to imitate us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

2 Thessalonians 3:9 not because we have not the right, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you, that ye should imitate us.

Hebrews 13:7 Remember them that had the rule over you, which spake unto you the word of God; and considering the issue of their life, imitate their faith.

Matthew 18:17-18 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, What things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Acts 15:2, 4, 6, 13-14 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and questioning with them, the brethren appointed that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. ... 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church and the apostles and the elders, and they rehearsed all things that God had done with them. ... 6 And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this matter. ... 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; [correct interpretation of scripture by the Holy Spirit-led church] as it is written, 16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, 18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my judgment is, [note that there had to be agreement with his judgement in the whole church - v22] that we trouble not them which from among the Gentiles turn to God; 20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath. 22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

1 Timothy 3:15 but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how men ought to behave themselves in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Nowhere does scripture call "individual interpretation of scripture alone" the "pillar and ground of the truth", the "sole rule of faith", or anything even close to that. The Bereans searched the scriptures daily to see if these things were so, meaning that nothing could contradict scripture, which it doesn't.

What about 2 Tim 3? Let's take a look..

2 Timothy 3:10-11 But thou didst follow my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, patience, 11 persecutions, sufferings; what things befell me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: and out of them all the Lord delivered me.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings [the OT] which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness: 17 that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.

Once again, we see a repeat of 2 Thess 2:15.. "whether by word, or by epistle of ours", and to that added the sacred scriptures of the Old Testament. The OT and Apostolic tradition (the Holy Tradition of the church, which includes all scripture, canonized or not, and the correct interpretation of that scripture - see Acts 8:30, 31 - for the correct understanding) need to be followed. Scripture alone is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness: 17 that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.)

The passages that speak of theosis (our transformation into Christ / His image) are completely ignored by the entirety of Western Christendom..

2 Peter 1:3-4  As His divine power has granted to us all things pertaining to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,  4  through which have been given to us precious and exceedingly great promises, so that through these we may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Do you believe Jesus partakes in the divine nature? Well...
 
Heb 3:14 for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:
 
1Co 2:13,16 Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words. ... 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
 
1Th 2:13 And for this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when ye received from us the word of the message, even the word of God, ye accepted it not as the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also worketh (energeo) in you that believe.
 
1Pe 4:11 if any man speaketh, speaking as it were oracles of God; if any man ministereth, ministering as of the strength which God supplieth: that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, whose is the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
 
Col 1:15,28 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; ... 28 whom we proclaim, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ;
 
Col 2:9-10 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, 10 and in him ye are made full, who is the head of all principality and power:
 
Col 3:3-4 For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then shall ye also with him be manifested in glory.
 
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
 
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you

Psa 82:6 I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.
 
Joh 10:34-36 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), 36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
 
Exo 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people; and it shall come to pass, that he shall be to thee a mouth, and thou shalt be to him as God.
 
Exo 7:1 And Jehovah said unto Moses, See, I have made thee as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
 
Psa 138:1 A Psalm of David. I will give thee thanks with my whole heart: Before the gods will I sing praises unto thee.
 
1Jn 4:16 And we know and have believed the love which God hath in us. God is love; and he that abideth in love abideth in God, and God abideth in him.
 
Act 17:28-29 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain even of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man.
 
Eph 3:19 and to know the love of Christ which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled unto all the fulness of God.
 
Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
 
Eph 4:15 but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ;
 
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
 
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: (see Gen 1, 5, and 9, below)
 
Rom 12:2 And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
 
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
 
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
 
Col 3:3 For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
 
1Th 5:23 And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly (complete conformity to the image and likeness of God); and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Gen 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
 
Now note the same language...
 
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
 
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
 
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
 
Col 3:10 and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:
 
1Jn 4:17 Herein is love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as he is, even so are we in this world.

Then there' the passages about the Divine Liturgy, and Christ as our High Priest and liturgist..

First, we have to understand the liturgy of the OT (Ex 20:24-26; 23:10-19; 25:1-40; and 26:1 - 30:38 is a good start).

Having read those, read these in the order provided: Hebrews 8:4-5, Isa 6:1-8, Rev 4:1-11 (esp. v8-11), then Heb 7:14-22; 8:1-2 (esp. v2!), 6-7.. see how He's the mediator of a better covenant, our high priest ..a minister of the sanctuary, of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man? Remember what the high priest does? That's similar to what Jesus does from heaven, in the true tabernacle, as our high priest. Moving along...

1 Cor 11:25; Heb 7:23-28 - His blood is the only perfect sacrifice for sin.

Rom 15:16 that I should be a minister of Christ Jesus unto the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be made acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

What is being offered up?

1 Cor 11:23-26 For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; 24 and when he had given thanks [Gr. eucharistesas], he brake it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye proclaim the Lord's death till he come.

In the liturgy, Jesus is both He who offers, and He who is offered.

Luk 22:15-20 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 for I say unto you, I shall not eat it, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17 And he received a cup, and when he had given thanks, he said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 for I say unto you, I shall not drink from henceforth of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave to them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which is poured out for you.

What are we doing? We're believing and obeying Jesus. Note that the EO in no way tries to define the real presence of Christ, nor tries to formulate a point-in-time change (which would lead to the RCC doctrine of 'transubstantiation', or Luther's 'consubstantiation').

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: yea and the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.

1Co 11:29-30 For he that eateth and drinketh, eateth and drinketh judgment unto himself, if he discern not the body. 30 For this cause many among you are weak and sickly, and not a few sleep.

NOTE: 'symbols' don't cause sickness or death

The Eucharist has always been that supreme act of thanksgiving and praise to God in His Church.

Act 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and the prayers.

But the Divine Liturgy goes even deeper by bringing to remembrance and proclaiming many other aspects of Jesus' teaching. For example, the whole of the beatitudes are sung in every liturgy, "Lord have mercy" is the answer to almost every, "Let us pray to the Lord.."

Luk 18:13-14 But the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote his breast, saying, God, be thou merciful to me a sinner. 14 I say unto you, This man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled; but he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Essentially, we mirror the worship going on in heaven, proclaim His death in remembrance, plea for the mercy of God, hear and reflect on His word, sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, etc.. and not only recognize Jesus throughout as our high priest, but in a sense the liturgy draws us up to the heavenlies so that we're celebrating this with Jesus (by the power of the Holy Spirit - in Western speak) - a communion with God.

Liturgy in the New Testament Scriptural references:

1.Acts 2:42 - continued in THE prayers (in the GreeK), were day by day IN THE TEMPLE…

2.Acts 5:42, The apostles were continually in the Temple praying and teaching, 6:4 they appoint deacons so they can devote themselves to THE prayers (Greek) and ministry of the word

3.Acts 10:2-3 Cornelius prayed continually, 9th hour., 10:9 Peter at the 6th hour went to the roof to pray. These were "liturgical hours of prayer".

4.Acts 13:2 While they were "ministering" to the Lord, literally in liturgy, the Holy Spirit spoke to them. The Spirit works in liturgy
 
5.Acts 15:22, 18:8, 17: "leaders" of synagogue, ie., liturgical worship leaders.

6.Acts 18:7 "Worshipper of God" house next to the synagogue.

7.Acts 16:25 midnight praying and singing hymns of praise to God.

8.Acts 20:6, 16 After the Days of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost is mentioned. Paul says in I Cor. 16:8 that he will stay in Ephesus until Pentecost. The early Church kept a liturgical "church calendar".

9.Hebrews 8:2 High Priest Jesus a "minister" (lit. "liturgist") in the heavenly sanctuary.

Incense/censers - Rev. 5:8 The 24 elders with bowls of incense which are the prayers of the saints. 8:3 Angel with incense before the altar before the throne. The offering of incense was actually commanded by Divine mandate in the OT. It was not an option at that time It was when St. Zacharias was offering incense that the angel appeared to him, and brought him the tidings that he was going to be a father (Luke 1:9-13). St. Athanasius, citing Hosius, mentions the burning of incense as a prerogative of the Church, and not the Emperor (History of the Arians, Part 6:44, NPNF II 4:286). Egeria's Diary makes mention of the prolific use of incense during worship in 4th century Palestine (Diary of a Pilgrimage, Chapter 24, ACW 38:92). . The apostate act of offering a grain of incense to a statue of the emperor was considered worship by the early Church and the pagans. Evening Prayer (Vespers) Psalm: "Lord I have cried unto Thee--hearken unto me; hearken unto me, O Lord! Lord, I have cried unto Thee, hearken unto me; attend to the voice of my supplication when I cry unto Thee: Hearken unto me, O Lord. Let my prayer be set forth as incense before Thee, the lifting up my hands as an evening sacrifice; hearken unto me, O Lord." (Psalm 140:1-2) And Scripture prophesied that the Gentiles everywhere would offer incense to God. "For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same, My Name shall be great among the Gentiles. And in every place incense shall be offered unto My Name, and a pure offering; for My Name shall be great among the heathen,' saith the Lord of hosts." (Malachias 1:11)

Other Liturgical References: Candle stands, candles (1:12, 4:5), Vestments and Robes which were mandated by God for His OT priests (1:13,15:6, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9-13) Prostrations (5:8, 7:11), Golden bowls (5:8, 8:3), Scrolls (5:2, Thrones (where leader sits 11:16, 5:1)), temple (15:5).

Thus the point of all of this is that modern Bible translators have "messed with the Bible" in order to eliminate liturgy from the life of the first Christians. Liturgy and "Spirit filled worship" were not set against each other by the first Christians. The real question for we as modern Christians is not "When did the Church START doing rituals and repetition etc.", but "When did it STOP worshipping like that?" The question then is, how do we in the 21st Century recover the Apostolic and Biblical model of worship? We submit to our listeners that it is not necessary to reinvent the wheel of worship. The Orthodox Church has an unbroken continuity of worship practice and understandings that are rooted in the First Century Church’s practice and Apostolic direction.

May God continue to bless and keep you in your journey.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.138 seconds with 54 queries.