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Author Topic: I have been taking communion in your churches  (Read 19518 times) Average Rating: 0
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romanbyzantium
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« on: April 25, 2004, 01:25:02 PM »

As you know, I have orthodox family members( great bunch, even with their faults) and on occasion I do go to Divine Liturgy with them and most times I commune with them.  They tell me that I am not supposed to commune since I am not in union with the church. Which I know but, then I start to think . . . that is Jesus there and he commands me to partake. So I partake.

I brought this issue to my priest ( traditionalist Tridentine) and he told me that I am allowed  to commune in orthodox churches but that I need to get the permission of their Bishop first, something that won’t happen, except in some parishes that I have heard of, by word of mouth and this Greek lady that I work with. She has even invited me to her church.

My question to him was: Would I be sinning, if I commune when I didn’t get this permission or is it ok when my conscience tells me to commune? I told him that when I am in a church that is celebrating the mass ( catholic, orthodox, oriental) I feel compelled to commune and I believe that this is because of the Holy Spirit, so I usually commune even above the objections of the bishops and priests. As the Holy spirit is above any human man and his laws.

After talking for about almost one hour it came down to respecting your church laws. Well, this part I didn’t like because it meant disobeying the pull of the Holy Spirit. He also talked about bringing  scandal to you guys plus other things that I won’t get in to.

What do you think?  Should I listen to my priest or listen to the holy spirit?
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2004, 01:30:20 PM »

romanbyzantium,

Scandalous or not scandolous, I would have to go with what my priest says.

Your humble friend,
Demetri
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2004, 01:38:06 PM »

romanbyzantium,

Scandalous or not scandolous, I would have to go with what my priest says.

Your humble friend,
Demetri

You don't undertand the pull that I get. It is extremely difficult to resist.
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2004, 01:38:09 PM »

After talking for about almost one hour it came down to respecting your church laws. Well, this part I didn’t like because it meant disobeying the pull of the Holy Spirit. He also talked about bringing  scandal to you guys plus other things that I won’t get in to.

Isn't there something deceptive about all this?  What is "the pull of the Holy Spirit"?  Are we comfortable saying we here can confidently discern what that pull is?  Are we to think that the Holy Spirit pulls people to disobey reasonable ecclesiastical regulations meant to keep us from (however unintentionally) sinning?  I can sympathise with the view RB espouses, but honestly think this is a very prideful attitude that says it's OK to commune in a church with valid sacraments while throwing obedience to legitimate Church authorities out the window.
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2004, 01:39:47 PM »

RB:

Look at the canon law of the Western Catholic Church.  It makes it clear that you can only ask for sacraments from Orthodox if there is necessity.  Added to that the fact that you would be disrespecting your hosts (a sin or rude at least) means you should not do it.  The Holy Spirit will not pull you to do something like this.

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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2004, 01:48:01 PM »

RB:

Look at the canon law of the Western Catholic Church.  It makes it clear that you can only ask for sacraments from Orthodox if there is necessity.  Added to that the fact that you would be disrespecting your hosts (a sin or rude at least) means you should not do it.  The Holy Spirit will not pull you to do something like this.

anastasios

I know what it says and my priest told me too. I just told him that I couldn't resist the pull to commune. This not only happens in orthodox churches but in all apostolic churches. I have been to quite a few of them.  My priest tell me to pray about it.

if the holy spirit is pulling me then it is not a sin.

Are the coptics considered oritental churches?

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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2004, 01:55:54 PM »

1) The Copts (not Coptics) are an Oriental Orthodox Church.  You will not get away with communing in their Church because they will confront you as to whether you belong to their Church if they notice you are not Egyptian.
2) The Holy Spirit does not pull you to do things contrary to the Church.  This sounds like you are mistaking your desires for the Spirit. You need to be obedient to the Church.

anastasios
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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2004, 02:15:15 PM »

[What do you think?  Should I listen to my priest or listen to the holy spirit?]

How do you know it is the Holy Spirit talking to you?

Would the Holy Spirit be telling you to put your own wants and needs above the laws and fasting requirements of a specific  church?  Would the Holy Spirit condone such instant gratification at the expense of going against the beliefs or preparatory requirements of a specific church?  

You sound like the person who constantly sins and then says...'But the devil made me do it!'

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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2004, 02:22:27 PM »

[What do you think?  Should I listen to my priest or listen to the holy spirit?]

How do you know it is the Holy Spirit talking to you?

Would the Holy Spirit be telling you to put your own wants and needs above the laws and fasting requirements of a specific  church?  Would the Holy Spirit condone such instant gratification at the expense of going against the beliefs or preparatory requirements of a specific church?  

You sound like the person who constantly sins and then says...'But the devil made me do it!'

Orthodoc

Orthodoc,

That last statement of your was not nice. :'(

It is the Holy spirit that compels me. I don't get that pull when I have been to protestant churches with friends that have invited me.

why would the holy spirit compel me? sometime human laws gets in the way of god's desires. see the split within the chritsian world.
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« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2004, 02:32:37 PM »

RB,

How do you know it is the Holy Spirit? That is the question we all want to know.

anastasios
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« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2004, 02:37:55 PM »

Dear RB:

This is an Orthodox forum.  I invited you here due to seeing your positive comments about Palestinian Christians (both Eastern and Western) on another forum.  You seem to be more interested in discussing Orthodox vs. Catholic on this forum, which is fine.  However, when Orthodox tell you what the Orthodox Church teaches and you continue to argue with them that their Church is wrong, etc., then it starts to get old and your welcome gets worn out so to speak.  This thread is the culmination of your posting style which constantly questions the Orthodox Church's decisions.  The Orthodox Church does what the Orthodox Church does and if you have questions about why, then ask them.  Minor questions along the lines of "are you sure this is the best proceedure" are also fine.  But arguing "the Holy Spirit pushed me in a way that directly contradicts what you believe" is not ok.  You are really pushing it this time.

One can only wonder your motives for posting this.  You know Orthodox get upset when others commune in their churches. Yet you keep pushing the idea that God is making you do this.  Even if he were, you should not be shoving it in people's faces which is scandalous!  IT IS AGAINST THE ORTHODOX CHURCH'S POLICY FOR YOU TO COMMUNE IN IT AND IF YOU KEEP POSTING THAT IT IS OK FOR YOU TO IGNORE THE TEACHINGS OF ORTHODOXY THEN ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION HERE MAY HAVE TO BE TAKEN AGAINST YOU.

anastasios
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« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2004, 02:45:34 PM »

sometime human laws gets in the way of god's desires.  

rb, I usually stay away from the O/C discussions, but this statement led me to wonder.  Do you think that the laws of your own church are merely human laws also?
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« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2004, 02:52:45 PM »

Forgive me for posting twice in a row.  

rb, something occurs to me.  I, too, feel drawn to the Eucharist (but don't go up because I am not yet chrismated), but I interpret that as the Holy Spirit's witness to me that the Orthodox Eucharist is truly His body and blood, and that this is the church where He wants me to be.  Eventually, I will get to participate.  

Perhaps the tug you experience is from the Holy Spirit, but you have misunderstood what it means?
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« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2004, 03:01:16 PM »

[sometime human laws gets in the way of god's desires. see the split within the chritsian world. ]

Gods desires or your desires RB?  

Sounds like we have a Charismatice Roman Catholic in our midst!

You want us to believe that the same Holy Spirit who was present at, and instrumental in, formulating the Canons and laws of the undivided church is personally telling you to turn your back on these laws he helped formulate in favor of instant gratification for yourself?


If you are being Communed in Orthodox Churches by Orthodox priests then they are as much at fault as you are.  Every Orthodox priest is to protect the Chalice.  You wouldn't get away with it in my parish believe me.  Any stranger who comes forward is questioned by the priest and is turned away if they are not Orthodox or if they are Orthodox and have not prepared themselves properly by Confession, Absolution, and fasting.  I have seen my priest turn Orthodox away from the Chalice because they have cigarette breath or Alcohol on their breath.  And I greatly admire him for it.  It is his job to protect the Chalice and its precious contents.

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« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2004, 04:40:39 PM »

RB,

To respect the Holy Spirit is to respect the laws of his Church even if you personally disagree with them.  It is absolutely wrong and sinful to disregard the canons of our brothers and receiven when you know they do not allow this.  Unless an Orthodox bishop has given you explicit permission to approach the Chalice you should not and I cannot imagine an Orthodox bishop doing so under normal circumstances.  In any case bragging about breaking Orthodox canons on an Orthodox board is hardly appropriate.  Put yourself in their shoes, how would you feel if a Protestant came on bragging about receiving in a Catholic Church in spite of our general disallowance of such and then claiming the Holy Spirit told them to do it?

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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2004, 04:59:53 PM »

I must say, Rb, I was outraged and shocked when I read your post. It seems that in all of our posts, heavily flavored with ecumenist lies and false hopes, you just wanna get everyone mad.

Firstly, from my point of view either the Orthoox Church or the Catholic Church is the true Church, I don't know yet, but when I know, I'lll let you know. Anyway, the laws of both churches do not condone what you are doing, therefore the Holy Ghost would never compell you to do something that was against the laws of the true Church.

Sin is hard to resisit, and the temptations and thrusts of hell are powerful. You have no idea if this is God or not, you just assume on your own authority that the Holy Ghost is compelling you to do something against the will and intentions of the Christ's Church.

I remember when I first became Catholic, I would always complain to my Spiritual Father, that the temptations were too great, I was compelled to do so, I couldn't resist. He told me to grow up, for God never sends us anything we can't handle.

And I might add you as a Catholic are communing at Churches that reject dogmas that should be very dear to you! In the other thread, on fundamental differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, you said the Catholic Church teaches the Orthodox Churches to be in Schism, therfore, you would then have no problem with recieving communion in a SSPX parish. Some in Rome consider the SSPX to be schismatic, but that shouldn't be a problem, should it?

How can you as a Catholic recieve communion in Chruches that reject dogmas of your Church? Communion is about sharing in the Body and Blood of Christ in one faith, the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are not united in faith. How can you be so bold, so proud?

RB, I will pray for you!
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« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2004, 05:05:00 PM »

Communion= Co-Munio which translates as "With Union."  Nuff said.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2004, 05:06:56 PM »

 :)Amen, Joe!
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« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2004, 05:08:13 PM »

Dear RB:

This is an Orthodox forum.  I invited you here due to seeing your positive comments about Palestinian Christians (both Eastern and Western) on another forum.  You seem to be more interested in discussing Orthodox vs. Catholic on this forum, which is fine.  However, when Orthodox tell you what the Orthodox Church teaches and you continue to argue with them that their Church is wrong, etc., then it starts to get old and your welcome gets worn out so to speak.  This thread is the culmination of your posting style which constantly questions the Orthodox Church's decisions.  The Orthodox Church does what the Orthodox Church does and if you have questions about why, then ask them.  Minor questions along the lines of "are you sure this is the best proceedure" are also fine.  But arguing "the Holy Spirit pushed me in a way that directly contradicts what you believe" is not ok.  You are really pushing it this time.

One can only wonder your motives for posting this.  You know Orthodox get upset when others commune in their churches. Yet you keep pushing the idea that God is making you do this.  Even if he were, you should not be shoving it in people's faces which is scandalous!  IT IS AGAINST THE ORTHODOX CHURCH'S POLICY FOR YOU TO COMMUNE IN IT AND IF YOU KEEP POSTING THAT IT IS OK FOR YOU TO IGNORE THE TEACHINGS OF ORTHODOXY THEN ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION HERE MAY HAVE TO BE TAKEN AGAINST YOU.

anastasios

anastasio,

I am not pushing in people's faces that I commune in your churches. I said that I have communed in your churches because I felt compel to. I have also said that I spoke to my priest about it and he told me that I needed their bishop's permission first. HE also said that I needed to respect your laws.

I never said that the orthodox church is wrong I just disagree with it. Is it ok to disagree with the orthodox church?
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« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2004, 05:11:30 PM »

So ,RB, it is ok to disagree with the Orthodox Church dogmatically and on Church regulations and laws, but it doesn't matter if you recieve communion in their churches?! Hogwash!
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« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2004, 05:15:12 PM »

So ,RB, it is ok to disagree with the Orthodox Church dogmatically and on Church regulations and laws, but it doesn't matter if you recieve communion in their churches?! Hogwash!

Ben,

No! I just need to follow my priest's advice.  But disagreements will always be there.
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« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2004, 05:17:26 PM »

If your priest tells you to do anything against the laws of Church, find a new priest!
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« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2004, 05:17:33 PM »

Communion= Co-Munio which translates as "With Union."  Nuff said.

Joe Zollars

Well, Rome allows you to commune and we are not in full communion.  We are in union that jesus is present in the eucharist.
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« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2004, 05:20:17 PM »

If your priest tells you to do anything against the laws of Church, find a new priest!

he is not telling me to do anything against canon law. he is a very holy and traditional priest. He told me not to if i didn't get their Bishop's permission, which would be nill.

I just felt that I was being compel by the HS to commune which has never happened in protestant churches, and look how people here reacted.  It was a reaction as if the world was ending.
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« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2004, 05:21:14 PM »

Well, Rome allows you to commune and we are not in full communion.  We are in union that jesus is present in the eucharist.

The fruits of Vatican II.

Lord have mercy!

We partake of the Body and Blood of Christ as one, one in faith. The Orthodox and Catholic Churches do not share the same faith, this is exactly why my local OCA, GOA, or ROCOR priest would throw me out of the church before giving me communion.

Thank God, my priest and parish still uphold the traditional and true teachings of the Catholic Church!
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« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2004, 05:24:23 PM »

It was a reaction as if the world was ending.

When I asked my local OCA and GOA priest why I couldn't recieve communion in their churches, they made it clear because we do not share the same faith, and for me to recieve communion in their churches would be a sacralige against the holy eucharist.....any sacralige against the Blessed Sacrament is a hell of a lot worse than the world ending.
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« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2004, 05:28:21 PM »

When I asked my local OCA and GOA priest why I couldn't recieve communion in their churches, they made it clear because we do not share the same faith, and for me to recieve communion in their churches would be a sacralige against the holy eucharist.....any sacralige against the Blessed Sacrament is a hell of a lot worse than the world ending.

so you are a traditionalist!!
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« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2004, 05:36:30 PM »

I do not see how the quote from my post you provided shows that I am a traditionalist Catholic, but hey, maybe you read it off of my profile.

Anyway, I guess I am a traditionalist if that means I adhere to offical Catholic teaching, and have a passion and a love for the Trdidentine Mass. But didn't you say your priest, you know the one you asked about recieveing communion in Orthodox churches, was a traditional Tridentine priest? So that would mean you are a traditionalist too....welcome to the club Wink Grin
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« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2004, 05:37:15 PM »

Quote
so you are a traditionalist!!

Is that bad?
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« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2004, 05:38:25 PM »

Is that bad?

no, that is very good.
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« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2004, 05:39:51 PM »

Is that bad?

To Vatican II loving ecumenists devoted to the Novus Ordo Mass.....YEP.
Not that RB, is any of the above Wink
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« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2004, 05:46:27 PM »

To Vatican II loving ecumenists devoted to the Novus Ordo Mass.....YEP.

The false ecumenist. Not the true ecumenist.
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« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2004, 05:50:18 PM »

Well of course, cause the true ecumenist, doesn't care, all is good with him, we're all one..little dogmatic differences like Papal Infallibilty don't matter, or which litrugy we use, as long as we all hold hands and love Jesus << Lips Sealed :'( Lips Sealed :'( Lips Sealed :'( Lips Sealed :'( Lips Sealed :'( Lips Sealed :'( Lips Sealed :'( Lips Sealed :'( Lips Sealed :'( Lips Sealed :'( Lips Sealed :'( Lips Sealed :'( Lips Sealed :'( Lips Sealed :'( Lips Sealed
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« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2004, 05:52:56 PM »

Well of course, cause the true ecumenist, doesn't care, all is good with him, we're all one..little dogmatic differences like Papal Infallibilty don't matter, or which litrugy we use, as long as we all hold hands and love Jesus << Lips Sealed

what you have described is the false ecumenist, not the true ecumenist.
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« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2004, 05:54:10 PM »

lol...ok well since you are so learned in the ways of ecumenism (big surprise Wink) what is the "true ecumenist"...cause you sure seem like the "false" one.
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« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2004, 05:59:37 PM »

lol...ok well since you are so learned in the ways of ecumenism (big surprise ) what is the "true ecumenist"...cause you sure seem like the "false" one.

Ben,

Would christ approve of your mocking tone? Remember we are in the same club. Tongue

True ecumenist don't want unity for the sake of unity. They don't ignore the differences in order to be united. They dialouge on how these differences can be resolved. They don't pretend that they don't exist.

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Ben
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« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2004, 06:06:19 PM »


Quote
Would christ approve of your mocking tone? Remember we are in the same club. Tongue

Would Christ approve of you breaking the laws of the Church and recieving communion in Orthodox Churches? And from now on I'll be a little niser....this club is a friendly one  Grin

Quote
True ecumenist don't want unity for the sake of unity. They don't ignore the differences in order to be united. They dialouge on how these differences can be resolved. They don't pretend that they don't exist.

Is there such a thing?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2004, 06:07:46 PM by Ben » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2004, 07:14:55 PM »

Ben,

Would christ approve of your mocking tone? Remember we are in the same club. Tongue

True ecumenist don't want unity for the sake of unity. They don't ignore the differences in order to be united. They dialouge on how these differences can be resolved. They don't pretend that they don't exist.



rb,

From your posting style, you don't appear to be a very humble person.  Just because you feel that the Holy Spirit draws you to chalice doesn't make any difference.  You should be approaching the chalice "...with fear and trembling.", just like St. Paul commends you to work out your salvation.  Instead, you appear to be approaching it with pride.

Why don't you try reading some of the prayers of preparation before communion from an Orthodox Prayer book.  All Orthodox Christians are commanded to read their prayers before Communion (and this is NOT just part of going to church.  This is something to do BEFORE church.), and if not, than thier priest isn't doing his job.  Try the Prayer Book put out by Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, NY.  Especially read the Canon and some of the prayers that follow.  In many Orthodox churches (it should be in all), someone announces that no Orthodox Christian should approach unless they are prepared by fasting, prayer (i.e. your prayers) and a recent confession.
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« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2004, 08:00:52 PM »

I guess I don't understsand what Orthodox Church you are talking about, RomanByzantium.   Who?  Where?

I have never been to an Orthodox Church or Monastery where you would be communed, unless you lied to the priest and he didn't verify it.

Either you are trying to stir things up with a fabrication, or the church you are communing in is not really Orthodox.
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« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2004, 08:20:32 PM »

I guess I don't understsand what Orthodox Church you are talking about, RomanByzantium.   Who?  Where?

I have never been to an Orthodox Church or Monastery where you would be communed, unless you lied to the priest and he didn't verify it.

Either you are trying to stir things up with a fabrication, or the church you are communing in is not really Orthodox.

Do you think that you don't have liberal parishes?
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dllwatkins
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« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2004, 08:46:00 PM »

Do you think that you don't have liberal parishes?
Giving Holy Communion to non-Orthodox is not liberal, it is wrong, and it is not Orthodox.
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« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2004, 08:56:27 PM »

If he's not trolling, then he's chumming, BigO boyz n' girls. Stop taking the bait.

Demetri
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« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2004, 09:10:23 PM »

If he's not trolling, then he's chumming, BigO boyz n' girls. Stop taking the bait.

Demetri

What are you talking about now Demetri? Can't I do any right  in your eyes. I am being sincere and you are bad mouthing me. That is not nice. I am not trolling nor chumming ( whatever that means).
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« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2004, 09:12:06 PM »

Giving Holy Communion to non-Orthodox is not liberal, it is wrong, and it is not Orthodox.

We have the same problems within catholicism too. It is the modernism heresy. A lot of our clergy are not following the rules.
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« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2004, 09:13:00 PM »

RB,

Do the right thing when attending an Orthodox Liturgy, and that is to refraim from receiving the cup.  You are only fooling yourself if you think you are pulling a fast one on the priest who may have unknowingly accepted you at Communion time. According to St. Paul, receiving Communion unworthily (inelligibility in your case) can only bring condemnation on yourself.  Communion = Communing in union.  

JoeS   :-";"xx
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