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Author Topic: A Disturbing Vision revealed to me by a Holy Elder  (Read 8012 times) Average Rating: 0
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Salpy
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« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2011, 06:15:26 PM »

With regard to the Church of the East and the title "Mother of God," this is taken from chapter 10 of their catechism:

Quote
35)   In what sense can we recognize or acknowledge certain theological terminology used by our beloved sister apostolic churches who will address The Ever Virgin Mary as “The Mother of God”??

The Orthodox position will declare this: The Blessed Mother did not give birth to His Godhead, which is from eternal; but rather she had given birth to His manhood, at the end of time, still it is right to be called “the Mother of God,” why?  Because He who is born of her is at once God and Man.  By way of example: The mother of the President of the United States did not give birth to his presidency, she gave birth to the man; and indeed we call her the mother of the President; and again, the Catholicos Patriarch of the East received his office from The Church, and not from his mother who bore him, and we do call her the mother of the Patriarch.

http://www.acoeyouth.org/Learn/catechism/cat.html

So we see that they allow the title "Mother of God" as long as it is qualified.  I think even Nestorius himself was willing to accept that phrase as long as it was qualified.  It is clear from the above explanation, though, that they see a distinction between Christ's humanity and divinity that is different from what the OO's and EO's are comfortable with.  In other words, according to the Assyrians, Christ's divinity is to Him what the presidency is to Obama.  Both OO's and EO's believe in a more perfect union between the divinity and humanity.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 06:17:49 PM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2011, 06:48:59 PM »

Even the most serious sin may be forgiven after death and there is salvation from Hell. The scriptural foundation for this is 2 Maccabees 12: 39-45 where prayer and almsgiving by the living obtained the remission of hell-meriting (mortal) sin for the dead.

Then we may look at the words of one of Russia's contemporary respected theologians Metropolitan Hilarion...  I would infer from his words that all of the OO Churches pray for those in hell, with the exception of the Coptic Church which has, only recently, decided against such prayers.

Here is the text of the prayers for the dead in the Armenian Church:

http://armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Armenian_Church_Requiem_Service

We pray for God's mercy and pity upon the departed, and that He forgive them and number them among the righteous.  I don't think this precludes the hope that those in hell can be saved, but it doesn't specifically state that that is what is being sought.  I don't know.  I've always been taught that it is a mystery as to how the prayers for the departed work and how far they can go in helping a person after death.
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« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2011, 06:52:26 PM »

With regard to the Church of the East and the title "Mother of God," this is taken from chapter 10 of their catechism:

Quote
35)   In what sense can we recognize or acknowledge certain theological terminology used by our beloved sister apostolic churches who will address The Ever Virgin Mary as “The Mother of God”??

The Orthodox position will declare this: The Blessed Mother did not give birth to His Godhead, which is from eternal; but rather she had given birth to His manhood, at the end of time, still it is right to be called “the Mother of God,” why?  Because He who is born of her is at once God and Man.  By way of example: The mother of the President of the United States did not give birth to his presidency, she gave birth to the man; and indeed we call her the mother of the President; and again, the Catholicos Patriarch of the East received his office from The Church, and not from his mother who bore him, and we do call her the mother of the Patriarch.

http://www.acoeyouth.org/Learn/catechism/cat.html

So we see that they allow the title "Mother of God" as long as it is qualified.  I think even Nestorius himself was willing to accept that phrase as long as it was qualified.  It is clear from the above explanation, though, that they see a distinction between Christ's humanity and divinity that is different from what the OO's and EO's are comfortable with.  In other words, according to the Assyrians, Christ's divinity is to Him what the presidency is to Obama.  Both OO's and EO's believe in a more perfect union between the divinity and humanity.

Indeed, that is semi-Adoptionist, if not implied Adoptionist, a blasphemous analogy.  That's like saying she is the Mother of the One who became God, not is God from the very moment of conception.
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« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2011, 06:58:30 PM »

I consider heretical the idea that prayers can help a departed and damned soul escape perdition. However, I will admit that such prayers may have an effect since God exists outside time and thus heard such prayers long before the soul would be damned, helping to prevent that fate. How this might work is a mystery.

Since God happily does not reveal the damned to the living, we should pray for everybody who has died.

But when a man is judged at death, this judgment stands. Consider Jesus's recounting of the rich man and Lazarus.
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« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2011, 07:13:27 PM »

Indeed, that is semi-Adoptionist, if not implied Adoptionist, a blasphemous analogy.  That's like saying she is the Mother of the One who became God, not is God from the very moment of conception.

I get the feeling Theodorean Christology is very similar to Adoptionism, with the main difference being when they believe the Word of God assumed Christ.  I think the Adoptionists believed the Word of God assumed Christ at the time of Christ's baptism.  I think the Theodoreans, on the other hand, believe the union took place either at the time of Christ's birth, or perhaps in the womb.  However, the nature of the union between humanity and divinity seems to be the same in both systems.  In other words, it's the Word of God assuming the man Christ, as opposed to the Word of God assuming our humanity.

Someone who knows this stuff better than I can correct me if I am wrong.
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« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2011, 07:23:40 PM »


I consider heretical the idea that prayers can help a departed and damned soul escape perdition...


There was a time when the Church of Rome believed that souls could be liberated from hell, during the first millennium when it was united in one body with the Universal Church.


"In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell. Thus some argued from a false interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 sq., that Christ freed several damned souls on the occasion of His descent into hell. Others were misled by untrustworthy stories into the belief that the prayers of Gregory the Great rescued the Emperor Trajan from hell. But now theologians are unanimous in teaching that such exceptions never take place and never have taken place, a teaching which should be accepted.

" If this be true, how can the Church pray in the Offertory of the Mass for the dead: "Libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu" etc.? Many think the Church uses these words to designate purgatory. They can be explained more readily, however, if we take into consideration the peculiar spirit of the Church's liturgy; sometimes she refers her prayers not to the time at which they are said, but to the time for which they are said. Thus the offertory in question is referred to the moment when the soul is about to leave the body, although it is actually said some time after that moment; and as if he were actually at the death-beds of the faithful, the priest implores God to preserve their souls from hell. But whichever explanation be preferred, this much remains certain, that in saying that offertory the Church intends to implore only those graces which the soul is still capable of receiving, namely, the grace of a happy death or the release from purgatory."

Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

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« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2011, 08:11:09 PM »

Good question.  I always assumed that all ancient churches had prayers for the dead.  It would be nice if Rafa could tell us if his Church has them.

Even the most serious sin may be forgiven after death and there is salvation from Hell. The scriptural foundation for this is 2 Maccabees 12: 39-45 where prayer and almsgiving by the living obtained the remission of hell-meriting (mortal) sin for the dead.

Then we may look at the words of one of Russia's contemporary respected theologians Metropolitan Hilarion...  I would infer from his words that all of the OO Churches pray for those in hell, with the exception of the Coptic Church which has, only recently, decided against such prayers.

Praying for those in hell...

I was reading an article recently by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev called "Orthodox Worship as a School of Theology", and I came across the following:-

Bishop Hilarion: "Several years ago I came across a short article in a journal of the Coptic Church where it stated that this Church had decided to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books, since these prayers “contradict Orthodox teaching”. Puzzled by this article, I decided to ask a representative of the Coptic Church about the reasons for this move. Recently I had the possibility to do so, and a Coptic Metropolitan replied that the decision was made by his Synod because, according their official doctrine, no prayers can help those in hell.

"I told the metropolitan that in the liturgical practice of the Russian Orthodox Church and other local Orthodox Churches there are prayers for those held in hell, and that we believe in their saving power. This surprised the Metropolitan, and he promised to study this question in more detail."

This Orthodox teaching is contrary to the Roman Catholic.

Here is the original article ...

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx




2 Maccabees was never canonized by the Eastern Church or the Jews. The ACOE also has the most reliable Old Testament in existence, the Peshitta Tanakh used by Babylonian Jewry which the ACOE ancestors finished standardizing around the first century when Christians if I am correct. It knows perfectly well what goes into the canon and what does not because it compiled the books. The deuterocanonical books were written by Hellinistic Jews considered heretical. Saint Athanasius warned that they should not be put in the canon under any means and only be given to Catachumens for reading because these books were stuffed with heresy. Jerome gave the same warning and he translated the vulgate of Roman Catholics.These books were canonized only as a reaction to protestants . However, in the East they were never canonized and the Orthodox opinion of the Apostles expressed by the Western St.Athanasius (and every single Eastern Holy Expositor of the scriptures) was the one which prevailed.


As for the business of "praying people out of Hell" by celebrating liturgies, well that's a sugar coated purgatory.  In the Anaphora of Mar Addai and Mar Mari which is the oldest liturgy in the world and written by a disciple of Christ (Mar Addai and his succesor Mar Mari) there is no mention whatsoever of people being removed from Sheol, being saved post-mortem. It would be abominable to say that the Apostles discipled people in the East and West differently. Therefore someone changed the Liturgy relatively recently. I know this never happened in the East and Scholars already said it is the oldest liturgy so the conclusion Father Ambrose is that somebody introduced this thing of praying people out of Sheol and post-mortem salvation, etc. in the West.

Salpy, there is nothing "adoptionistic" about Saint  Theodore. He was taught by Diodorus of Tarsus who was of the school of the Cappadocian Fathers. In fact Saint Theodore and Saint John Chrysostom were most excellent friends and study buddies. Is Saint John Chrysostom a heretic?  But anyways, this is of no concern for the ACOE since Mar Theodore was a Westerner. He was given an honorary title of "Interpreter" for defending the correct Apostolic Christology of two natures in Christ (perfect man and perfect God) but he was one of your own not part of the ACOE ecclesiastical structure in any way. I recognize he did mistakes though (he taught universalism for example and questioned the Book of Job's part in the canon, which are errors) but his Christology was correct and vindicated in the West itself. The Church in the West believes in 2 natures completely seperated and with no mixture just like he taught.


Lastly,it should said that much of the theology people he are taking as "ecumenical" and the truth which fell from the sky was never agreed to, or never under consultation with the Eastern Church, the actual Church whose Jesus's relatives served as Patriarchs, which spoke his language, did the scribal work for the New Testament preserving it, gave the world the Old testament in it's most secure form, in short the Church where Salvation first appeared to (and that's a fact since the ACOE was the only Church Christ personally spoke to...via Abgar Malka who converted Edessa). Please keep that in mind, it is not my fault that the existence of the ACOE rattles the "original Church model" many here suscribe to.
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« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2011, 08:19:09 PM »

Rafa999, what is purgatory according to you?
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« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2011, 08:21:52 PM »

Rafa999, what is purgatory according to you?

A Horrible lie invented by Satan which teaches you can pay yourself out of Sheol/Hades after you die if you have enough liturgies/masses, prayers, money, or a decree by the pope/patriarch. It perverts God's Justice and scripture where the Rich man was condemned no matter what he said or did (those to the Left) while Lazarus awaited paradise (those to the Right hand of God)
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« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2011, 08:23:01 PM »


2 Maccabees was never canonized by the Eastern Church or the Jews. The ACOE also has the most reliable Old Testament in existence, the Peshitta Tanakh used by Babylonian Jewry which the ACOE ancestors finished standardizing around the first century when Christians if I am correct.

Rafa,

I always wondered about the Old Testament canon of the ACOE.  Is it the same as the Protestants?  Is there a website that lists the Old Testament canon of your Church?
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« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2011, 08:31:36 PM »


2 Maccabees was never canonized by the Eastern Church or the Jews. The ACOE also has the most reliable Old Testament in existence, the Peshitta Tanakh used by Babylonian Jewry which the ACOE ancestors finished standardizing around the first century when Christians if I am correct.

Rafa,

I always wondered about the Old Testament canon of the ACOE.  Is it the same as the Protestants?  Is there a website that lists the Old Testament canon of your Church?

The canon is in the catechism :

9)   How do the Church Fathers of the early Church enumerate The Books of the Old Testament?

1, The Book of Genesis;

    2, The Book of Exodus;

3, The Book of Leviticus;

4, The Book of Numbers;

5, The Book of Deuteronomy;

6, The Book of Joshua, son of Nun;

       7, The Book of Judges, and with it as an appendix

              The Book of Ruth;

8, The I & II Books of Kings, as two parts of one         book;

9, The III and IV Books of Kings;

10, The I and II Paralipomenon (I & II Chronicles);

11, The I Book of Esdras, and the II or, as it is

      Named in Nehemiah;

12, The Book of Esther;

13, The Book of Job;

14, The Psalms;

15, The Proverbs of Solomon;

16, The Ecclesiastes, also by Solomon;

17, The Song of Songs, also by Solomon;

18, The Book of the Prophet Isaiah;

19, The Book of Jeremiah;

20, The Book of the Prophet Ezekiel;

21, The Book of the Prophet Daniel;

22, The Book of the Twelve Prophets.

 

10)  We have other Old Testament Books, but they are not noted here, such as The Wisdom of the son of Sirach, and of others, why?

These books do not exist in the Hebrew language, but they are in the Greek texts.

 

11) How does the Church of the East regard these other books which are not included in the original Hebrew?

St Athanasis, as a Church Father, had declared that these books were included in the reading requirements of the proselytes who are preparing for admission into the Holy Church through Holy Baptism.
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« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2011, 08:40:45 PM »

Rafa999, what is purgatory according to you?

A Horrible lie invented by Satan which teaches you can pay yourself out of Sheol/Hades after you die if you have enough liturgies/masses, prayers, money, or a decree by the pope/patriarch. It perverts God's Justice and scripture where the Rich man was condemned no matter what he said or did (those to the Left) while Lazarus awaited paradise (those to the Right hand of God)
You are mistaken. One lie doesn't justify another. I suggest you do a little research from a RC source if you are truly interested in hearing it straight from the horse's mouth.
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« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2011, 08:43:14 PM »

Good question.  I always assumed that all ancient churches had prayers for the dead.  It would be nice if Rafa could tell us if his Church has them.

Even the most serious sin may be forgiven after death and there is salvation from Hell. The scriptural foundation for this is 2 Maccabees 12: 39-45 where prayer and almsgiving by the living obtained the remission of hell-meriting (mortal) sin for the dead.

Then we may look at the words of one of Russia's contemporary respected theologians Metropolitan Hilarion...  I would infer from his words that all of the OO Churches pray for those in hell, with the exception of the Coptic Church which has, only recently, decided against such prayers.

Praying for those in hell...

I was reading an article recently by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev called "Orthodox Worship as a School of Theology", and I came across the following:-

Bishop Hilarion: "Several years ago I came across a short article in a journal of the Coptic Church where it stated that this Church had decided to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books, since these prayers “contradict Orthodox teaching”. Puzzled by this article, I decided to ask a representative of the Coptic Church about the reasons for this move. Recently I had the possibility to do so, and a Coptic Metropolitan replied that the decision was made by his Synod because, according their official doctrine, no prayers can help those in hell.

"I told the metropolitan that in the liturgical practice of the Russian Orthodox Church and other local Orthodox Churches there are prayers for those held in hell, and that we believe in their saving power. This surprised the Metropolitan, and he promised to study this question in more detail."

This Orthodox teaching is contrary to the Roman Catholic.

Here is the original article ...

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx




30,000 Ethiopians were delivered from hell through the prayers and asceticism of St. Gebre Menfes Kidus:

And our Lord said unto him, “Be strong and fear not in seeing Me, for I have given thee a bold heart, that thou mayest look at Me Myself, even as Abukalamsis (i.e. John of the Apocalypse) looked upon Me.  What dost thou wish for, and what dost thou ask of Me?  I have come to thee that thou mightest see Me; what thou wishest I will do for thee, My beloved one, whom I chose before thou hadst being, and I have made thee pure, My chosen one.  Thou hast dwelt in the desert seventy or eighty years at a time, thou hast wandered through the deserts doubting nothing, thou hast not feared to dwell with lions, and thou hast endured, and been of good cheer even unto death.  And now, verily, I will not refuse what thou shalt ask of Me; whatsoever thou desirest I will perform for thee.”  

When our father heard God utter this great mystery, he rejoiced and said, “My Lord and my God, I am not worthy that Thou shouldst do for me as Thou hast done for others like me.  Now, grant me ten mercies.  Have mercy for my sake upon the men of the land of Gabota, who are sinners, for Thou didst not come into the world to call the righteous, who have no need to repent, but to turn sinners to repentance.  Remember, O Lord, those in the Judgment, whose tears flow like the waters of winter, and who gnash their teeth, and who acted as they did in ignorance, Satan having led them into error.  Have mercy upon them, O Lord, and shew compassion unto them.”

And our Lord said unto our father Gabra Manfas Kedus, “They say hard things.  It hath been head that I do not do unto them as unto the others, who are righteous peoples, and are pure, and have borne toil upon earth.  And as to that which thou askest Me; I do not destroy a monk for the sake of one sin.  If his wickednesses are many, and his sins are many, after he hath entered the fire he becometh subject for judgment.  When he beseecheth Me with great labour I make the soul of that man to go forth from him, and I scatter it among the winds, and not a trace of it is ever found; at the resurrection of the dead it is not in the abode of the righteous, or in the abode of sinners.  In thy case it is not thus; according to My mercy I will have mercy upon thee, for I have given thee a promise that I will do whatsoever thou askest Me.”  

When our father heard this, he rejoiced and bowed his face.  And all the heavenly beings rejoiced and said, “Redemption is with our God.  Amen.”  And our father also said unto God, “How great is Thy mercy, my Lord?”  And God said, “To each of thy years according to the length of thy days I will add two years”; and forthwith the days of our father were made to be three hundred years.  And our Lord said unto the archangels, “Go ye and bring souls forth from judgment, and release them and give them to the blessed Gabra Manfas Kedus.”  And the seven angels went down to the Gahanam of fire, the place of sinners.  At that moment came ‘Abd Almakos, the angel of Gahanam, who hath power over the tortures of sinners, and brought out there from the men of the land of Gabota.  And the number of the souls who went forth from judgment was thirty thousand, and the seven angels led them on their way, and guided them- namely Michael and Gabriel, each with his pilgrims, Saku’el and Ramu’el, each with his great ones - and Fanu’el blew a trumpet before them.  And the other angels were uttering cries of joy, until they came before the throne of God in the heavens, and saying, “Glory to God in the heavens, and peace upon earth, His good will to men.”

                                   [from the Ethiopian Synaxarium]

Selam
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« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2011, 08:47:37 PM »

I consider heretical the idea that prayers can help a departed and damned soul escape perdition. However, I will admit that such prayers may have an effect since God exists outside time and thus heard such prayers long before the soul would be damned, helping to prevent that fate. How this might work is a mystery.

Since God happily does not reveal the damned to the living, we should pray for everybody who has died.

But when a man is judged at death, this judgment stands. Consider Jesus's recounting of the rich man and Lazarus.


Amen.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 08:48:00 PM by Rafa999 » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2011, 10:06:34 PM »


2 Maccabees was never canonized by the Eastern Church or the Jews. The ACOE also has the most reliable Old Testament in existence, the Peshitta Tanakh used by Babylonian Jewry which the ACOE ancestors finished standardizing around the first century when Christians if I am correct.

Rafa,

I always wondered about the Old Testament canon of the ACOE.  Is it the same as the Protestants?  Is there a website that lists the Old Testament canon of your Church?

The canon is in the catechism :

9)   How do the Church Fathers of the early Church enumerate The Books of the Old Testament?

1, The Book of Genesis;

    2, The Book of Exodus;

3, The Book of Leviticus;

4, The Book of Numbers;

5, The Book of Deuteronomy;

6, The Book of Joshua, son of Nun;

       7, The Book of Judges, and with it as an appendix

              The Book of Ruth;

8, The I & II Books of Kings, as two parts of one         book;

9, The III and IV Books of Kings;

10, The I and II Paralipomenon (I & II Chronicles);

11, The I Book of Esdras, and the II or, as it is

      Named in Nehemiah;

12, The Book of Esther;

13, The Book of Job;

14, The Psalms;

15, The Proverbs of Solomon;

16, The Ecclesiastes, also by Solomon;

17, The Song of Songs, also by Solomon;

18, The Book of the Prophet Isaiah;

19, The Book of Jeremiah;

20, The Book of the Prophet Ezekiel;

21, The Book of the Prophet Daniel;

22, The Book of the Twelve Prophets.

 

10)  We have other Old Testament Books, but they are not noted here, such as The Wisdom of the son of Sirach, and of others, why?

These books do not exist in the Hebrew language, but they are in the Greek texts.

 

11) How does the Church of the East regard these other books which are not included in the original Hebrew?

St Athanasis, as a Church Father, had declared that these books were included in the reading requirements of the proselytes who are preparing for admission into the Holy Church through Holy Baptism.


Thank you for this.  I'm still trying to determine if this is the same as the Masoretic used by the Protestants, or if it has fewer books than they have.  It seems to have one or two books less, but I'm not sure.  Maybe someone who is better at this than I am can look at this and tell.

The last one, the Book of the 12 Prophets, is the 12 books of the Minor Prophets, right?  It think they are the following:

Hosea
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Joel
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

(I got this from Wikipedia.   Smiley )

I don't see Lamentations.  Does the Assyrian Church have Lamentations?  Also, are the two books known as first and second Samuel included in the four books of Kings?  I think that is how it is in the Orthodox canon.

I just find this interesting.  
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« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2011, 10:23:38 PM »

It is the Jewish Jerusalem reckoning of the canon inherited from Babylonian Jewry (ancestors of ACOE):

8 )  Why do we need to assent to the Jewish Jerusalem reckoning of these books?

We refer you to the writings of St Paul the Treasurer of the Church, where he states in the Epistle to the Roman Church, “ . . much every way: chiefly, because that, unto them was committed the oracles of God.” (3:2), which is by interpretation, meaning simply, that The Holy Writings of the Old Testament had been received from the Hebrew Church (in Jerusalem) by the Christian Church of the New Testament of Jerusalem



By the way, it is also the conclusion adopted up until the 9th century by Eastern Orthodoxy too (to not canonize books of dubious origin with false doctrine):

Quote
The Stichometery of Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople (806-815 A.D.)

    And the (writings) of the Old Testament which are gainsaid and are not recognized in the Church [canonized] are the following:

    1. 3 Books of the Maccabees 7300 lines
    2. The Wisdom of Solomon 1100 lines
    3. The Wisdom of Jesus Sirach 2800 lines
    4. The Psalms and Odes of Solomon 2100 lines
    5. Esther 350 lines*
    6. Judith 1700 lines
    7. Susanna 500 lines
    8. Tobith, also (called) Tobias 700 lines

*of course Esther is canonical
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« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2011, 10:45:52 PM »

For a number of centuries the canon varied from place to place.  Among the Oriental Orthodox, there is still diversity in the Old Testament canon.

I think St. Athanasius, whom the Protestants and your Church cite in support of your canon, also did not like Esther.  That book barely made it in.  Esther is also not found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, but Enoch is. 

As of the mid-400's the Armenians had the Maccabean books, since they were read on the eve of the battle of Avarayr.
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« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2011, 10:49:23 PM »

For a number of centuries the canon varied from place to place.  Among the Oriental Orthodox, there is still diversity in the Old Testament canon.

I think St. Athanasius, whom the Protestants and your Church cite in support of your canon, also did not like Esther.  That book barely made it in.  Esther is also not found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, but Enoch is. 

As of the mid-400's the Armenians had the Maccabean books, since they were read on the eve of the battle of Avarayr.

Esther is part of the canon minus the additions.
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« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2011, 11:29:54 PM »

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.xxv.iii.iii.xxv.html

Quote from: St. Athanasius' 39th Festal Letter
But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read; nor is there in any place a mention of apocryphal writings. But they are an invention of heretics, who write them when they choose, bestowing upon them their approbation, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as ancient writings, they may find occasion to lead astray the simple.
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« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2011, 11:33:00 PM »

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.xxv.iii.iii.xxv.html

Quote from: St. Athanasius' 39th Festal Letter
But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read; nor is there in any place a mention of apocryphal writings. But they are an invention of heretics, who write them when they choose, bestowing upon them their approbation, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as ancient writings, they may find occasion to lead astray the simple.

Yes, they are not in the Canon, and they should be read by the catachumens. No conflict except for St.Athanasius believing Esther should not be in the canon which of course it should be (minus the additions).
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« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2011, 11:38:19 PM »

St. Athanasius also lists Lamentations and Baruch. 

Maybe Lamentations in the Assyrian Bible is included in Jeremiah?

I don't think Baruch is in either the Protestant or Assyrian canons.

From what I understand you don't see an early Church Father listing a canon that looks exactly like any of the ones we have today.
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« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2011, 11:47:57 PM »

I think lamentations is in the canon, I am not sure though. Baruch is not part of the canon.
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« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2011, 10:04:20 AM »

There are clearly two ladies, or maybe one lady with a bipolar disorder.

We have the tough lady of the ACOE elder and the Assyrians

We have the compassionate lady of the Russians, the lady of the Azure-Blue Ladder


THE AZURE-BLUE LADDER

When the holy Apostle Peter's earthly life had terminated, and he was
called up to Heaven, the Lord gave him the heavenly keys to the gates of
Paradise.

With earnest, priestly devotion, the holy Apostle went about his exalted
business, unlocking the gates of Paradise to the souls of those who had
earned heavenly blessedness in their earthly life, by the decision of the
Most-High and Righteous Judge.  And so he continued for many years, in a
steady and habitual manner.  But, one day, the Apostle Peter came before
the Lord God in a very troubled state, kissed the sleeve of His luminous
robe, and said:

"O Lord, may Thy wrath not come upon me!  I must bring my troubles before
Thee.  Lo! for many days now I have been seeing people whom I have not
allowed in through the gates of Paradise, in this, Thy most illustrious
garden.  I cannot explain how they come to be here.  Their faces do not in
any way resemble the faces of the righteous.  I fear that this may be a
trick of the evil one.  He and his servants are capable of every kind of
craftiness and deceit.  Knowing that the keys are always in my possession
and that there is no other entrance, I am greatly perplexed, even
saddened."

The Lord responded: "It is thy duty and responsibility.  Watch closely
those who enter paradise, and there shall be no unwanted guests."

A few more days passed, and the apostle appeared again before the Lord of
Sabaoth:

"O great and merciful God, every day more and more strangers steal up to
paradise, I know not how, over the heavenly fence.  I address Thy wisdom
and power.  I myself have no power, and my wisdom is insignificant.  Thou
alone art All-knowing."

Then God said: "Come with Me, Saint Peter.  Let us visit together all the
regions of Paradise and let us see for ourselves what is the cause of these
occurrences, that have provoked such justified and praiseworthy unrest in
thee.  Let us go!"

And off they went.  The Lord in front, the Apostle following.  They walked
for a long time, and even got tired.  At last they reached an orchard of
oranges and through the branches glimpsed an azure robe.  Quietly they
approached, and what did they see?  At the foot of the hill, on a green,
daisy-strewn clearing, stood the Most-Holy Virgin, looking down from the
edge of the deep abyss, whence the earth and all the people on it could be
seen.  And in the hands of the Most-Pure One, barely visible, was the most
delicate of ladders, woven from the finest of azure-blue silks.

Passionate cries arose from the abyss.  Fiery supplications from sufferers
could be heard.  And, lo! suddenly the All-Pure One let down the feathery
ladder.  It unrolled; and, one by one, the wretched, tormented, tired,
forgotten people -- men and women -- climbed it, poured into the clearing,
and timidly disappeared into the flowered paths and forests of the gardens
of Paradise.

And as each saved one passed, the Most Holy Mother of God raised up Her
divinely beautiful hands and said with tenderness:

"My Lord and My God, Thou seest, hearest and knowest all.  By Thy
unfathomable mercy, forgive Me for disturbing the order Thou hast
established in Thine holy Paradise.  But I, too, have lived on the earth;
and I, as well, am a mother.  Can I refuse a mother who prays for her
son?  Am I not the Mother of the entirety of weak and suffering
mankind?  Forgive Me My sin."

Then the Lord lay His mighty hand on the Apostle Peter's shoulder and said:
"Let us depart quietly hence.  We have no business here."

 -- Nikolai Leskov




Thank you Father for this post.
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« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2011, 11:21:31 AM »

The idea that Mary ascended to Heaven I don't think is taught by the ACOE (will have to check).  The important thing is : Most certainly Mary needed a saviour and since she needed a saviour she must have fallen asleep. This is the Truth.

Boy, that Elijah must have been a swell guy to not need a Savior!

What gives you that idea?  Elijah and Enoch will die, too.  They are just taking their time about it.  Heck, it will probably be the Pope that will kill them.
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« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2011, 11:57:38 AM »


2 Maccabees was never canonized by the Eastern Church or the Jews. The ACOE also has the most reliable Old Testament in existence, the Peshitta Tanakh used by Babylonian Jewry which the ACOE ancestors finished standardizing around the first century when Christians if I am correct.

Rafa,

I always wondered about the Old Testament canon of the ACOE.  Is it the same as the Protestants?  Is there a website that lists the Old Testament canon of your Church?

The canon is in the catechism :

9)   How do the Church Fathers of the early Church enumerate The Books of the Old Testament?

1, The Book of Genesis;

    2, The Book of Exodus;

3, The Book of Leviticus;

4, The Book of Numbers;

5, The Book of Deuteronomy;

6, The Book of Joshua, son of Nun;

       7, The Book of Judges, and with it as an appendix

              The Book of Ruth;

8, The I & II Books of Kings, as two parts of one         book;

9, The III and IV Books of Kings;

10, The I and II Paralipomenon (I & II Chronicles);

11, The I Book of Esdras, and the II or, as it is

      Named in Nehemiah;

12, The Book of Esther;

13, The Book of Job;

14, The Psalms;

15, The Proverbs of Solomon;

16, The Ecclesiastes, also by Solomon;

17, The Song of Songs, also by Solomon;

18, The Book of the Prophet Isaiah;

19, The Book of Jeremiah;

20, The Book of the Prophet Ezekiel;

21, The Book of the Prophet Daniel;

22, The Book of the Twelve Prophets.

 

10)  We have other Old Testament Books, but they are not noted here, such as The Wisdom of the son of Sirach, and of others, why?

These books do not exist in the Hebrew language, but they are in the Greek texts.

 

11) How does the Church of the East regard these other books which are not included in the original Hebrew?

St Athanasis, as a Church Father, had declared that these books were included in the reading requirements of the proselytes who are preparing for admission into the Holy Church through Holy Baptism.


Thank you for this.  I'm still trying to determine if this is the same as the Masoretic used by the Protestants, or if it has fewer books than they have.  It seems to have one or two books less, but I'm not sure.  Maybe someone who is better at this than I am can look at this and tell.

The last one, the Book of the 12 Prophets, is the 12 books of the Minor Prophets, right?  It think they are the following:

Hosea
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Joel
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

(I got this from Wikipedia.   Smiley )

I don't see Lamentations.  Does the Assyrian Church have Lamentations?  Also, are the two books known as first and second Samuel included in the four books of Kings?  I think that is how it is in the Orthodox canon.

I just find this interesting.  

They could of been influenced by protestants......just like we all were to some degree. So it might be good to check and see what their books were before 1517A.D.
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« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2011, 01:15:12 PM »

Jnorm, protestants only appeared to the ACOE very very late- the mountains were innacessible to them. By then the reading cycle was set and it did not contain references to these books being canonical. Don't worry, these books were not accepted in the West for the most part (St. Nicephorus the Patriarch of Constantinople called them "gainsay" and not accepted by the Church in the 9th Century !) up until the protestants caused the Western Church to canonize them (RCC in Trent and Orthodox while writing the RCC influenced Long and short catechisms of the 1692 EO council of Jerusalem...)


Quote
Thank you Father for this post.

I looked up who this Nikolai Leskov who wrote that fiction was. He was a friend of Leo Tolstoy who is excommunicated by the ROC. Also from wikipedia :

Quote
Leskov served on the Scholarly Committee of the Ministry of Education from 1874. He was dismissed in 1883 due to his too liberal views. After a religious crisis in the mid-1870s he published several stories which questioned Orthodox Christianity.

So you see...Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If it is convenient for him for Christians to believe the damned will be fished out of Sheol (the resting place for the damned) instead of facing their terrible final judgement, just use an enemy of the Church to write a convenient fable...
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« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2011, 01:20:37 PM »

The idea that Mary ascended to Heaven I don't think is taught by the ACOE (will have to check).  The important thing is : Most certainly Mary needed a saviour and since she needed a saviour she must have fallen asleep. This is the Truth.

Boy, that Elijah must have been a swell guy to not need a Savior!

What gives you that idea?  Elijah and Enoch will die, too.  They are just taking their time about it.  Heck, it will probably be the Pope that will kill them.

Come on, that was unnecessary...besides, the Rafa's priest's vision didn't tell us anything about who will kill Elijah and Enoch, but I await a sequel  Tongue
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« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2011, 01:24:45 PM »

The idea that Mary ascended to Heaven I don't think is taught by the ACOE (will have to check).  The important thing is : Most certainly Mary needed a saviour and since she needed a saviour she must have fallen asleep. This is the Truth.

Boy, that Elijah must have been a swell guy to not need a Savior!

What gives you that idea?  Elijah and Enoch will die, too.  They are just taking their time about it.  Heck, it will probably be the Pope that will kill them.

Come on, that was unnecessary...besides, the Rafa's priest's vision didn't tell us anything about who will kill Elijah and Enoch, but I await a sequel  Tongue


Maybe he caught a "glimpse" of who that person might be...I asked him who was in Hell for the most part, he said he could not see that deeply, he could not even see Sheol. He did catching some fleeting glimpses of Paradise though and he said it was a very "Calm" and "Peaceful" place. There was something concerning Jesus and the entrance of paradise which the Virgin said, I will ask in more detail if my friend and Spiritual Superior is disposed to answer.


I do warn that my friend said that the pope kissing the Quran and preaching evolution was apostasy and he gave me this verse :

Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.

-Revelation 2:5
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« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2011, 03:27:48 PM »

Jnorm, protestants only appeared to the ACOE very very late- the mountains were innacessible to them. By then the reading cycle was set and it did not contain references to these books being canonical. Don't worry, these books were not accepted in the West for the most part (St. Nicephorus the Patriarch of Constantinople called them "gainsay" and not accepted by the Church in the 9th Century !) up until the protestants caused the Western Church to canonize them (RCC in Trent and Orthodox while writing the RCC influenced Long and short catechisms of the 1692 EO council of Jerusalem...)


Quote
Thank you Father for this post.

I looked up who this Nikolai Leskov who wrote that fiction was. He was a friend of Leo Tolstoy who is excommunicated by the ROC. Also from wikipedia :

Quote
Leskov served on the Scholarly Committee of the Ministry of Education from 1874. He was dismissed in 1883 due to his too liberal views. After a religious crisis in the mid-1870s he published several stories which questioned Orthodox Christianity.

So you see...Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If it is convenient for him for Christians to believe the damned will be fished out of Sheol (the resting place for the damned) instead of facing their terrible final judgement, just use an enemy of the Church to write a convenient fable...
How do we know that this vision your friend had is not Satan masquerading as an angel of light? Just because YOU attribute the vision to the Holy Spirit doesn't mean it IS so. So how are we to know outside of your testimony?
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« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2011, 04:10:42 PM »

With regard to the Church of the East and the title "Mother of God," this is taken from chapter 10 of their catechism:

Quote
35)   In what sense can we recognize or acknowledge certain theological terminology used by our beloved sister apostolic churches who will address The Ever Virgin Mary as “The Mother of God”??

The Orthodox position will declare this: The Blessed Mother did not give birth to His Godhead, which is from eternal; but rather she had given birth to His manhood, at the end of time, still it is right to be called “the Mother of God,” why?  Because He who is born of her is at once God and Man.  By way of example: The mother of the President of the United States did not give birth to his presidency, she gave birth to the man; and indeed we call her the mother of the President; and again, the Catholicos Patriarch of the East received his office from The Church, and not from his mother who bore him, and we do call her the mother of the Patriarch.

http://www.acoeyouth.org/Learn/catechism/cat.html

So we see that they allow the title "Mother of God" as long as it is qualified.  I think even Nestorius himself was willing to accept that phrase as long as it was qualified.

In the Bazaar, written later in life, Nestorius says he always allowed for a qualified use of "Theotokos," and, in fact, had now reconciled himself to the title.
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« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2011, 06:32:55 PM »

Jnorm, protestants only appeared to the ACOE very very late- the mountains were innacessible to them. By then the reading cycle was set and it did not contain references to these books being canonical. Don't worry, these books were not accepted in the West for the most part (St. Nicephorus the Patriarch of Constantinople called them "gainsay" and not accepted by the Church in the 9th Century !) up until the protestants caused the Western Church to canonize them (RCC in Trent and Orthodox while writing the RCC influenced Long and short catechisms of the 1692 EO council of Jerusalem...)


Quote
Thank you Father for this post.

I looked up who this Nikolai Leskov who wrote that fiction was. He was a friend of Leo Tolstoy who is excommunicated by the ROC. Also from wikipedia :

Quote
Leskov served on the Scholarly Committee of the Ministry of Education from 1874. He was dismissed in 1883 due to his too liberal views. After a religious crisis in the mid-1870s he published several stories which questioned Orthodox Christianity.

So you see...Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If it is convenient for him for Christians to believe the damned will be fished out of Sheol (the resting place for the damned) instead of facing their terrible final judgement, just use an enemy of the Church to write a convenient fable...
How do we know that this vision your friend had is not Satan masquerading as an angel of light? Just because YOU attribute the vision to the Holy Spirit doesn't mean it IS so. So how are we to know outside of your testimony?

Because everything in the vision is confirmed by the Assyrian Church of the East and it's tradition which is the oldest Christian tradition in existence (being the Church Jesus Christ wrote to in Edessa). Death and Sheol are thrown into the Lake of fire which is what the vision said (Revelation 20:14). There is nothing in the Assyrian Patristic tradition to suggest otherwise. Read Mar Ephrem's "Concerning the Last Judgement"...no tollhouses, purgatory, praying people out of Hell (like that ridiculous story of the pagan roman emperor Trajan being rescued from Hell) or other fables only what my friend saw. We should pray for the dead but like Salpy and Lubeltri said how this works is a mystery. These are some of the oldest and most reliable accounts of what the Last Judgement will be according to the Eastern Orthodox Church itself, they were confirmed in the Vision. Further, there was something Concerning Christ and the Gate of Heaven- this destroys another heresy some propose that Mar Keefa (St.Peter) or the Virgin guard the gate of Heaven, again a fable, the Virgin said Jesus Christ was that Gate or guarding it which is confirmed by scripture :

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
- Matthew 7:13

I'd like to ask people here what bells signify in scripture since there was something concerning this and the Lord Jesus Christ and the Gate of Heaven too. The Elder said the Virgin said to him that her son awaits people to come to paradise I think by the way.
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« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2011, 06:52:04 PM »

Jnorm, protestants only appeared to the ACOE very very late- the mountains were innacessible to them. By then the reading cycle was set and it did not contain references to these books being canonical. Don't worry, these books were not accepted in the West for the most part (St. Nicephorus the Patriarch of Constantinople called them "gainsay" and not accepted by the Church in the 9th Century !) up until the protestants caused the Western Church to canonize them (RCC in Trent and Orthodox while writing the RCC influenced Long and short catechisms of the 1692 EO council of Jerusalem...)


Quote
Thank you Father for this post.

I looked up who this Nikolai Leskov who wrote that fiction was. He was a friend of Leo Tolstoy who is excommunicated by the ROC. Also from wikipedia :

Quote
Leskov served on the Scholarly Committee of the Ministry of Education from 1874. He was dismissed in 1883 due to his too liberal views. After a religious crisis in the mid-1870s he published several stories which questioned Orthodox Christianity.

So you see...Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If it is convenient for him for Christians to believe the damned will be fished out of Sheol (the resting place for the damned) instead of facing their terrible final judgement, just use an enemy of the Church to write a convenient fable...
How do we know that this vision your friend had is not Satan masquerading as an angel of light? Just because YOU attribute the vision to the Holy Spirit doesn't mean it IS so. So how are we to know outside of your testimony?

Because everything in the vision is confirmed by the Assyrian Church of the East and it's tradition which is the oldest Christian tradition in existence (being the Church Jesus Christ wrote to in Edessa).
So you keep saying as though repeating this mantra will make it true. You haven't proven yet, to my knowledge, that the ACOE IS the oldest church in existence today. Even if you have, you haven't proven how the age of your church means she has faithfully preserved the full truth of the Christian faith to this day. Therefore, we have no reason to believe that what your friend says is of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2011, 07:04:53 PM »

Jnorm, protestants only appeared to the ACOE very very late- the mountains were innacessible to them. By then the reading cycle was set and it did not contain references to these books being canonical. Don't worry, these books were not accepted in the West for the most part (St. Nicephorus the Patriarch of Constantinople called them "gainsay" and not accepted by the Church in the 9th Century !) up until the protestants caused the Western Church to canonize them (RCC in Trent and Orthodox while writing the RCC influenced Long and short catechisms of the 1692 EO council of Jerusalem...)


Quote
Thank you Father for this post.

I looked up who this Nikolai Leskov who wrote that fiction was. He was a friend of Leo Tolstoy who is excommunicated by the ROC. Also from wikipedia :

Quote
Leskov served on the Scholarly Committee of the Ministry of Education from 1874. He was dismissed in 1883 due to his too liberal views. After a religious crisis in the mid-1870s he published several stories which questioned Orthodox Christianity.

So you see...Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If it is convenient for him for Christians to believe the damned will be fished out of Sheol (the resting place for the damned) instead of facing their terrible final judgement, just use an enemy of the Church to write a convenient fable...
How do we know that this vision your friend had is not Satan masquerading as an angel of light? Just because YOU attribute the vision to the Holy Spirit doesn't mean it IS so. So how are we to know outside of your testimony?

Because everything in the vision is confirmed by the Assyrian Church of the East and it's tradition which is the oldest Christian tradition in existence (being the Church Jesus Christ wrote to in Edessa).
So you keep saying as though repeating this mantra will make it true. You haven't proven yet, to my knowledge, that the ACOE IS the oldest church in existence today. Even if you have, you haven't proven how the age of your church means she has faithfully preserved the full truth of the Christian faith to this day. Therefore, we have no reason to believe that what your friend says is of the Holy Spirit.


Actually I have proven it : the Liturgy of Mar Addai and Mar Mari is the oldest continuing liturgy, and you can read the Letter of Jesus Christ to Abgar malka as well as Abgar writing to his relative Narses Sovereign of Persia that Mar Keefa was going to Babylon (Seleukia-Ctseiphon) to pay him a visit. Both of these are preserved in the Great Armenian Historian Moses of Chorene's History of  Armenia. Eusebius has preserved the correspondence of the Lord Jesus Christ with King Abgar as well. If somebody says all of this is not true, they will have to explain why something from the Doctrine of Addai history (a certain relic which was used to cleanse Abgar of his leprosy and given by Mar Addai) is still preserved today. Namely this:




The Church (Edtha) is to be distinguished from the building of the church (the Umra). The actual Church started in the garden of Eden- God, Adam, Eve, and Adam and Eve who then had children. VERY important distinction. We are the Church not some building like a basilica or Hagia sophia.
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« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2011, 07:40:19 PM »

Jnorm, protestants only appeared to the ACOE very very late- the mountains were innacessible to them. By then the reading cycle was set and it did not contain references to these books being canonical. Don't worry, these books were not accepted in the West for the most part (St. Nicephorus the Patriarch of Constantinople called them "gainsay" and not accepted by the Church in the 9th Century !) up until the protestants caused the Western Church to canonize them (RCC in Trent and Orthodox while writing the RCC influenced Long and short catechisms of the 1692 EO council of Jerusalem...)


Quote
Thank you Father for this post.

I looked up who this Nikolai Leskov who wrote that fiction was. He was a friend of Leo Tolstoy who is excommunicated by the ROC. Also from wikipedia :

Quote
Leskov served on the Scholarly Committee of the Ministry of Education from 1874. He was dismissed in 1883 due to his too liberal views. After a religious crisis in the mid-1870s he published several stories which questioned Orthodox Christianity.

So you see...Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If it is convenient for him for Christians to believe the damned will be fished out of Sheol (the resting place for the damned) instead of facing their terrible final judgement, just use an enemy of the Church to write a convenient fable...
How do we know that this vision your friend had is not Satan masquerading as an angel of light? Just because YOU attribute the vision to the Holy Spirit doesn't mean it IS so. So how are we to know outside of your testimony?

Because everything in the vision is confirmed by the Assyrian Church of the East and it's tradition which is the oldest Christian tradition in existence (being the Church Jesus Christ wrote to in Edessa).
So you keep saying as though repeating this mantra will make it true. You haven't proven yet, to my knowledge, that the ACOE IS the oldest church in existence today. Even if you have, you haven't proven how the age of your church means she has faithfully preserved the full truth of the Christian faith to this day. Therefore, we have no reason to believe that what your friend says is of the Holy Spirit.


Actually I have proven it :
Actually, Rafa, the proof is in your ability to convince US that what you say is true. Looking at that as your goal, you have failed. You have also failed to prove a connection between the age of a church and its faithfulness to Apostolic doctrine. You can have the oldest church on earth, but if she has deviated from the teachings of the Apostles, her age doesn't mean squat.
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« Reply #79 on: January 03, 2011, 08:14:04 PM »

Is there a copy of the letter Jesus wrote, online?
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« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2011, 08:25:11 PM »

Well Pta, here is an exposition of the Mysteries by Mar Narsai, Harp of the Holy Spirit and who established the School of Nisibis (world's first university):

An Exposition of The Mysteries

He was laid in a manger and wrapped in swaddling clothes, as Man;
and the watchers extolled  Him with their praises, as God.
He offered sacrifices according to the Law,  as Man;
and He received worship from the Persians, as God.
Simeon bore Him  upon his arms, as Man;
and he named Him 'the Mercy' who showth mercy to all,  as God.
He kept the Law completely, as Man;
and He gave His own new Law, as God.

He was baptized in Jordan by John, as Man;
and the heaven was opened in honour of His baptism, as God.
He went in to the marriage-feast of the city of Canna, as Man;
and He changed the water that it became wine, as God.
He fasted in the wilderness forty days, as Man;
and watchers descended to minister unto  Him, as God.
He slept in the boat with His disciples, as Man;
and He rebuked the wind and calmed the sea, as God.

He set out and departed to a desert place, as  Man;
and He multiplied the bread and satisfied thousands, as God.
He ate and drank and walked and was weary, as Man;
and He put devils to flight by the word of His mouth, as God.
He prayed and watched and gave thanks and  worshipped, as Man;
and He forgave debts and pardoned sins, as God.
He asked water of the Samaritan woman, as Man;
and He revealed and declared her secrets, as God.

He sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, as Man;
and He forgave the sinful woman her  sins, as God.
He went up into the mountain of Tabor with His disciples, as Man;
and He revealed His glory in their sight, as God.
He shed tears and  wept over Lazarus, as Man;
and He called him that he came forth by His mighty power, as God.
He rode upon a colt and entered Jerusalem, as Man;
and the  boys applauded Him with their Hosannas, as God.

He drew nigh to the fig-tree and shewed  that He was hungered, as Man;
and His mighty power caused it to wither on a  sudden, as God.
He washed the feet of His twelve, as Man;
and He called  Himself Lord and Master, as God.
He ate the legal passover, as Man;
and He exposed the treachery of Iscariot, as God.
He prayed and sweated at the time  of His passion, as Man;
and He scared and terrified them that took Him, as God.

the  attendants seized Him and bound His hands, as Man;
and He healed the ear that Simon cut off, as God.
He stood in the place of judgement and bore insult, as Man;
and He declared that He is about to come in glory, as God.
He bore  His Cross upon His shoulder, as Man;
and He revealed and announced the  destruction of Zion, as God.
He was hanged upon the wood and endured the  passion, as Man;
and He shook the earth and darkened the sun, as God.

Nails were driven into His body, as Man;
and He opened the graves and quickened the dead, as  God.
He cried out upon the Cross 'My God, My God,' as Man;
and promised Paradise to the thief, as God.
His side was pierced with a spear, as  Man;
and His nod rent the temple veil, as God.
They embalmed His body and He was buried in the earth, as Man;
and He raised up His temple by His mighty  power, as God.

He remained in the tomb three days, as Man;
and the watchers glorified Him with  their praises, as God.
He said that He had received all authority, as Man;
and He promised to be with us for ever, as God.
He commanded Thomas  to feel His side, as Man;
and He gave them the Spirit for an earnest, as God.
He ate and drank after His resurrection, as Man;
and He ascended to the height and sent the Spirit, as God.



and here is the famous Hymn of Mar Babai :

Quote
The Theology of the Church of the East has been stated briefly and clearly in the following “Hymn of Praise (TESHBOKHTA)”  Composed by Mar Babai the Great in the sixth century A.D.,
a noted theologian of the Church

One is Christ the Son of God,
Worshiped by all in two natures;
In His Godhead begotten of the Father,
Without beginning before all time;
In His humanity born of Mary,
In the fullness of time, in a body united;
Neither His Godhead is of the nature of the mother,
Nor His humanity of the nature of the Father;
The natures are preserved in their Qnumas*,
In one person of one Sonship.
And as the Godhead is three substances in one nature,
Likewise the Sonship of the Son is in two natures, one person.
So the Holy Church has taught.
   
   

* Qnuma, is an Aramaic word. The nearest equivalent is the Greek “hypostasis”, in Latin “substantia” and in English “substance”.


Surely this is Orthodox no ?


Here's a copy of the Letter of Jesus Jetavan (also I mispelled the Persian Sovereign, who was Abgar's son, which St.Peter visited as "Narses" when he is called Nerseh , sorry for mistake) :

Quote
ABGAR'S LETTER TO THE SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST.

"Abgar, son of Archam, prince of the land, to Jesus, Saviour and Benefactor of men, who has appeared in the country of Jerusalem, greeting:--

"I have heard of Thee, and of the cures wrought by Thy hands, without remedies, without herbs: for, as it is said, Thou makest the blind to see, the lame to walk, the lepers to be healed; Thou drivest out unclean spirits, Thou curest unhappy beings afflicted with prolonged and inveterate diseases; Thou dost even raise the dead. As I have heard of all these wonders wrought by Thee, I have concluded from them either that Thou art God, come down from heaven to do such great things, or that Thou art the Son of God, working as Thou dost these miracles. Therefore have I written to Thee, praying Thee to condescend to come to me and cure me of the complaints with which I am afflicted. I have heard also that the Jews murmur against Thee and wish to deliver Thee up to torments: I have a city small but pleasant, it would be sufficient for us both."

The messengers, the bearers of this letter, met Jesus at Jerusalem, a fact confirmed by these words of the Gospel: "Some from amongst the heathen came to find Jesus, but those who heard them, not daring to tell Jesus what they had heard, told it to Philip and Andrew, who repeated it all to their Master."

The Saviour did not then accept the invitation given to Him, but He thought fit to honour Abgar with an answer in these words:--

VII.[2] ANSWER TO ABGAR'S LETTER, WHICH THE APOSTLE THOMAS WROTE TO THIS PRINCE BY COMMAND OF THE SAVIOUR.

"Blessed is he who believes in me without having seen me! For it is written of me: ' Those who see me will not believe in me, and those who do not see me will believe and live.'

As to what thou hast written asking me to come to thee, I must accomplish here all that for which I have been sent; and, when I shall have accomplished it all, I shall ascend to Him who sent me; and when I shall go away I will send one of my disciples, who will cure thy diseases, and give life to thee and to all those who are with thee."
Anan, Abgar's courier, brought him this letter, as well as the portrait of the Saviour, a picture which is still to be found at this day in the city of Edessa.



http://www.synaxis.org/cf/volume08/ECF00080.htm
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« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2011, 10:28:38 PM »

Saint King Abgar ("Apkar" in Western Armenian) is really cool.

He's the saint after whom this new church was named:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,32465.0.html


He's also on Armenian money:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abgar_V_of_Edessa


The Assyrian Church is indeed ancient, with its roots going back to the first century and the Liturgy of Addai and Mari is one of the oldest liturgies still in use, if not the oldest still in use.

However, other Apostolic Churches are also ancient and have first century roots.  The ancientness of a Church does not necessarily mean all of its teachings are the unchanged teachings of the Apostles.  St. Thaddeus, for example, after visiting St. Apkar, went to Armenia and started the Church there.  And yet the Armenians and Assyrians have different Christologies.  St. Mark started the Coptic Church in the first century, and the School of Alexandria is the most ancient Christian seminary.  Yet they, like the Armenians, have a different Christology from the Assyrians.  The Church in Rome goes back to the first century, and yet both you and I will disagree with some of their beliefs.

What I am trying to say is that few will argue with you about the ancientness of your Church.  However, that alone does not mean that everything your Church teaches is the unchanged teaching of the Apostles.  I think that is what Peter was saying, and I think he has a point.
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« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2011, 10:56:13 PM »

BUT the difference is the ACOE was isolated from everybody, it was 100% outside the Roman-Byzantine ecclesiastical structure. The RCC wants desperately to absorb the ACOE because it proves the "throne of Peter" business as a heresy.
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« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2011, 11:01:17 PM »

I think they want to absorb everybody.   Smiley
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« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2011, 11:04:29 PM »

I think they want to absorb everybody.   Smiley

The first U-Bodies were ACOE interestingly...
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« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2011, 12:16:57 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.

You are so deeply confused. Theotokos means that Mary gave birth to the Logos who had taken flesh from her as His own. Nothing about us can be likened to that.
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« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2011, 12:18:55 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.


Question....
Does the  Syrian Church of the east still  Believe,Holy Mary is the Christostokos , instead of the Theotokos , or did Mary correct the elder in this ......And Now everyone accepts Her as The Theotokos.......Though

Im still skeptical about talking  Apparitions.....

The subject of the Elder's vision was what happens after you die. There was no second chance (ie: purgatory, tollhouses, and praying people out of Hell are creations of the devil)- you died and either were stored in Sheol to await your judgement for not having been Christian or having been a bad Christian, and then at the final judgement you were sentenced to Hell. I asked the Rabi Qasha whether the word "Alam" (Assyrian word used in Aramaic New Testament) which could supposedly mean a very long time or eternity was proof his vision was wrong and that hell was only for a long time, I cited a famous patristic book. He answered me with something that chilled me: the book which I claimed that said Alam was not eternity was not canonized by the Church precisely for saying that and some other things- Alam means eternity! You spend eternity in Hell.

Okay, I have another question.  Your Elder said he accepts that the Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but she can't be called the "God-bearer"?

Theophoros and Theotokos are different.
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« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2011, 12:22:17 AM »

The ACOE has never been influenced by any Western Churches.

This is a silly statement. The East Syrian tradition began because of the efforts of West Syrian and Hebraic Christians, both of which are "Western churches" in the context of the ACE. Further, there was a West Syrian Bishop at the 410 Council of Seleucia to confirm its autocephaly, for some reason.
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« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2011, 12:24:24 AM »

Look the argument that somebody is the Mother of God because they bore God is wrong or else the Bishop of Antioch who bore God in his heart should have been called the Virgin Mary according to Cyril who made this false analogy.

Quote
You are so deeply confused. Theotokos means that Mary gave birth to the Logos who had taken flesh from her as His own. Nothing about us can be likened to that.

No confusion...there is absolutely no way the Logos can be given birth to. The Humanity it assumed seperately yes, it the Logos no since it is beyond birth, pain, suffering, hunger, neccesity, death, or anything else which we creatures of dust are subject to.

Quote
This is a silly statement. The East Syrian tradition began because of the efforts of West Syrian and Hebraic Christians, both of which are "Western churches" in the context of the ACE. Further, there was a West Syrian Bishop at the 410 Council of Seleucia to confirm its autocephaly, for some reason.

The SOC broke away from the ACOE not the other way round. The fables of the ACOE being a suffragan of a western SOC  and so forth are from the middle ages. The ACOE has always been independent and shall continue to be so until the return of Christ.
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« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2011, 12:38:59 AM »

If the Holy Trinity had a Mother,

Theotokos does not mean that the Holy Trinity was given birth to, but rather just the Logos, and at that with respect to the humanity He united to Himself.

The argument of bearing God in her precious womb falls flat since the third Bishop of Antioch was called God bearer yet is not called "Theotokos",

Theotokos refers to giving birth to God. The only person this could possibly be ascribed to is Mary. Anyone else could only be a Theophoros (the actual word for God-bearer as you are using it) at best.

and further calling the Virgin bearer of God would be an incomplete title since Christ is Perfect man as well as Perfect God and such a title would deny his humanity.

No. Jesus is Christ. Jesus is God. Jesus is a man. As such, Christotokos, Theotokos, and Anthropotokos are all potentially correct, given the right explanation. The problem here, rather, is that your tradition denies Theotokos. Our tradition does not deny Christotokos (absolutely, that is).
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