OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 11:48:53 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: A Disturbing Vision revealed to me by a Holy Elder  (Read 8253 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Rafa999
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 1,600


« on: January 01, 2011, 11:50:59 PM »

Greetings Brothers, Peace and Blessings to you all.


Now, of late I have not wanted to post much here. I feel that I must continue doing my duties in the Church and chatting though nice is too time consuming and I am many times not qualified to discuss certain matters. However, I have been given a great Truth by a Holy Priest of the Assyrian Church of the East, and after thinking about whether to share this with others or not, and hearing the sad line of Cain "Am I my Brother's keeper" sound in my heart and not wishing to repeat that line to myself, I knew that I needed to share this with you all.

Recently, I and my Elder friend and mentor in the ACOE, a wise Rabi Qasha were discussing about the danger of certain false ideas concerning the afterlife in certain churches, a certain church. Rabi Qasha has for me the Wisdom and Kindness of the entire Assyrian Church of the East- the illumination of Mar Ephrem, of Mar Isaac of Nineveh, of Mar Narsai and all the other pearls of the ACOE. A Master of prayer as well. Now here is what happened:

The Elder I am friends with since a long time has wished to confirm what the Assyrian Church of the East teaches concerning the afterlife. He received an answer. The Elder met the Holy Virgin dressed in White and Blue, and she told to him the final fate of human beings. Now describing visions is very difficult but the Elder told me that when you die...if you were not Christian or a Christian who walked in the crooked path (ie: somebody wicked, who ignored the Church's instruction and sacramants for example, somebody with no fruit  in their life) you were placed in Sheol (Hades). Christians who bore fruit and took their sacraments, prayed, did their duties automatically went to Heaven. I then asked the Elder if there was such a thing as a "purgatory" or a "tollhouse", some sort of purification after death, a way out of Sheol. He said No. I asked if after being stored in Sheol you were sentenced to Hell in the Final judgement. The Elder said that I was correct and that is what was told to him : Death and Sheol were to be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation chapter 20:14).

So I urge you my Christian Brothers NOT to believe in the idea that after you die you will get a second chance. "Purgatory", "Tollhouses" and even the idea that you can pray someone out of Sheol (instead of just a mere memorial/dukhrane which is Orthodox) are terrible falsehoods developed by Satan to give people a false sense of security.

I would also like to share that this Elder believes the office of the papacy is something very dangerous and foreign to the Church and that we should flee it quickly. Also his dissaproval of the doctrine of an ascension of the Virgin after death and her not needing a saviour or never dying since this is not a tradition of the Assyrian Church of the East which had several of Saint Joseph's and the Blessed Virgin's family members presiding as it's Patriarchs and it never recorded such a thing (and saying the Virgin is a "co-redeemer" is a dangerous heresy). These last things were not the subject of his vision but I wanted to say it as well while at this. I have done my duty in sharing this valuable information, we now make our own destinies...


« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 12:16:38 AM by Rafa999 » Logged

I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,734


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2011, 11:58:49 PM »

Also his dissaproval of the doctrine of an ascension of the Virgin after death and her not needing a saviour or never dying

Do you mean ascension in the sense of how Christ ascended?  I don't think too many Orthodox would argue with you that she did not ascend.  But what about her Assumption after her death?  I seem to recall that the Church of the East has a feast day for the Virgin Mary on August 15.  Isn't that for her Assumption, which was her body being taken up after her death?
Logged

Rafa999
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 1,600


« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2011, 12:07:17 AM »

The idea that Mary ascended to Heaven I don't think is taught by the ACOE (will have to check).  The important thing is : Most certainly Mary needed a saviour and since she needed a saviour she must have fallen asleep. This is the Truth.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 12:08:43 AM by Rafa999 » Logged

I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,734


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2011, 12:18:17 AM »

My understanding is that the Assumption happened after her death.  It involved her body being taken up.  How her body was taken up of course is a mystery.  The way I heard the story is that after the Virgin Mary died and was placed in a tomb, one of the Apostles who was out of town when she died wanted to look upon her body one last time.  When the tomb was opened, her body was not there and it was revealed to the Apostles that it had been taken up to heaven.

My understanding was that the belief in the Assumption is pretty ancient and predates the schism that divides our Churches.  Orthodox and Catholics both celebrate this on August 15.  I am pretty sure that your Church has a feast day for the Virgin Mary on August 15, and I always figured it must be for the Assumption.

The Assumption is different from Christ's Ascension.  It does not imply that the Virgin Mary did not need a Savior. 
Logged

Rafa999
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 1,600


« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2011, 12:21:41 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 12:23:49 AM by Rafa999 » Logged

I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,683


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2011, 12:28:42 AM »

Rafa999, please see this post: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,32547.0.html.
Logged
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,734


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2011, 12:32:00 AM »

The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.


It's probably best not to open that debate again.   Smiley

The next time you are able to talk to the Elder, though, it would be nice if you can ask him exactly what is commemorated on August 15 in your Church, and whether your Church believes in the Assumption of the Virgin Mary's body after her death.
Logged

stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2011, 12:37:20 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.


Question....
Does the  Asyrian Church of the east still  Believe , Holy Mary is the Christotokos , instead of the Theotokos , or did Mary correct the elder in this ......And Now everyone accepts Her as The Theotokos.......Though

Im still skeptical about talking  Apparitions Visions.....
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 12:56:05 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Rafa999
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 1,600


« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2011, 12:47:22 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.


Question....
Does the  Syrian Church of the east still  Believe,Holy Mary is the Christostokos , instead of the Theotokos , or did Mary correct the elder in this ......And Now everyone accepts Her as The Theotokos.......Though

Im still skeptical about talking  Apparitions.....

The subject of the Elder's vision was what happens after you die. There was no second chance (ie: purgatory, tollhouses, and praying people out of Sheol or Hell are creations of the devil)- you died and either were stored in Sheol to await your judgement for not having been Christian or having been a false/bad Christian, and then at the final judgement you were sentenced to Hell. I asked the Rabi Qasha whether the word "Alam" (Assyrian word used in Aramaic New Testament) which could supposedly mean a very long time or eternity was proof his vision was wrong and that hell was only for a long time, I cited a famous patristic book. He answered me with something that chilled me: the book which I claimed that said Alam was not eternity was not canonized by the Church precisely for saying that and some other things- Alam means eternity! You spend eternity in Hell.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 12:51:09 AM by Rafa999 » Logged

I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,170


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2011, 12:51:38 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.


Question....
Does the  Syrian Church of the east still  Believe,Holy Mary is the Christostokos , instead of the Theotokos , or did Mary correct the elder in this ......And Now everyone accepts Her as The Theotokos.......Though

Im still skeptical about talking  Apparitions.....

The subject of the Elder's vision was what happens after you die. There was no second chance (ie: purgatory, tollhouses, and praying people out of Hell are creations of the devil)- you died and either were stored in Sheol to await your judgement for not having been Christian or having been a bad Christian, and then at the final judgement you were sentenced to Hell. I asked the Rabi Qasha whether the word "Alam" (Assyrian word used in Aramaic New Testament) which could supposedly mean a very long time or eternity was proof his vision was wrong and that hell was only for a long time, I cited a famous patristic book. He answered me with something that chilled me: the book which I claimed that said Alam was not eternity was not canonized by the Church precisely for saying that and some other things- Alam means eternity! You spend eternity in Hell.

Okay, I have another question.  Your Elder said he accepts that the Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but she can't be called the "God-bearer"?
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Rafa999
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 1,600


« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2011, 12:54:22 AM »

Good you popped by Minas! This was not the subject of the Elder's Vision, but he also condemned evolution (everybody in the ACOE who is of correct doctrine does). Evolution is of satanic origin since it claims God created death, when in fact he created Adam perfect. the disposition of Adam as a creation and his fall introduced death in the world, therefore evolution is heretical for claiming God created Adam mortal. This is in accordance with the canons of the Seventh ecumenical council of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 12:59:34 AM by Rafa999 » Logged

I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2011, 01:05:13 AM »

When you see Him Again ...Can You Ask Him.....Please!

Sorry read his post wrong.... Grin
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 01:14:57 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,734


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2011, 01:06:58 AM »

I think he is using the word Sheol, as a distinct place from hell.   
Logged

Rafa999
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 1,600


« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2011, 01:10:27 AM »

When you see Him Again ...Can You Ask Him.....Please!

Doesn't Eastern Orthodox say, no One is In Hell at the Moment ,,What He is saying  sound very much
Like what those Catholic Apparitions say about people being in hell at this moment.....
Has he been reading Catholic Publications about there Apparitions....
Or Has the Vatican Rome Influence Your Religious somehow.... Huh


Hopefully will see him soon.

The ACOE has never been influenced by any Western Churches. I was surpised he had a vision with the Blessed Virgin in fact, I hear God seeks those who do his will and who donot try to have such visions, his case most probably. The Syriac Orthodox seperated a very long time ago and adopted the doctrine of Cyril, and the "Chaldeans" are Assyrians who broke off in schism to Rome in 1552. Rabi Qasha does not read those things you mentioned.

Sheol is where evil "christians" or non-Christians stay prior to being sentenced to Hell. There is no way out. This has been the teaching of the Church and Rabi Qasha just had a vision which confirmed this. The Rich man (read Luke 16) was in Sheol, notice how nothing could remove him, how there was a barrier between where he was and where Lazarus and his brothers were.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 01:17:09 AM by Rafa999 » Logged

I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,170


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2011, 01:14:05 AM »

Good you popped by Minas! This was not the subject of the Elder's Vision, but he also condemned evolution (everybody in the ACOE who is of correct doctrine does). Evolution is of satanic origin since it claims God created death, when in fact he created Adam perfect. the disposition of Adam as a creation and his fall introduced death in the world, therefore evolution is heretical for claiming God created Adam mortal. This is in accordance with the canons of the Seventh ecumenical council of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Then Lord have mercy on my soul.  I hope the Lord finds room in his heart to see why I am unable to believe you say is true.  But you didn't answer my previous question Rafa.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 01:14:23 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2011, 01:19:40 AM »

Sheol sounds like Hell itself if one can't be prayed out ..or the churches  Prayers  avails  not.....



When you see Him Again ...Can You Ask Him.....Please!

Doesn't Eastern Orthodox say, no One is In Hell at the Moment ,,What He is saying  sound very much
Like what those Catholic Apparitions say about people being in hell at this moment.....
Has he been reading Catholic Publications about there Apparitions....
Or Has the Vatican Rome Influence Your Religious somehow.... Huh


Hopefully will see him soon.

The ACOE has never been influenced by any Western Churches. I was surpised he had a vision with the Blessed Virgin in fact, I hear God seeks those who do his will and who donot try to have such visions, his case most probably. The Syriac Orthodox seperated a very long time ago and adopted the doctrine of Cyril, and the "Chaldeans" are Assyrians who broke off in schism to Rome in 1552. Rabi Qasha does not read those things you mentioned.

Sheol is where evil "christians" or non-Christians stay prior to being sentenced to Hell. There is no way out. This has been the teaching of the Church and Rabi Qasha just had a vision which confirmed this. The Rich man was in Sheol, notice how nothing coould remove him, how there was a barrier between where he was and where Lazarus and his brothers were.
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2011, 01:24:52 AM »

I wonder The person that was in sheol, maybe he had to wait till Christ died and descended,,The Lord could of preached to him as well.and he repented and became one of the saved.....Just Thinking out loud... Grin
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 01:25:53 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Rafa999
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 1,600


« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2011, 01:25:53 AM »

Sheol sounds like Hell itself if one can't be prayed out ..or the churches  Prayers  avails  not.....



When you see Him Again ...Can You Ask Him.....Please!

Doesn't Eastern Orthodox say, no One is In Hell at the Moment ,,What He is saying  sound very much
Like what those Catholic Apparitions say about people being in hell at this moment.....
Has he been reading Catholic Publications about there Apparitions....
Or Has the Vatican Rome Influence Your Religious somehow.... Huh


Hopefully will see him soon.

The ACOE has never been influenced by any Western Churches. I was surpised he had a vision with the Blessed Virgin in fact, I hear God seeks those who do his will and who donot try to have such visions, his case most probably. The Syriac Orthodox seperated a very long time ago and adopted the doctrine of Cyril, and the "Chaldeans" are Assyrians who broke off in schism to Rome in 1552. Rabi Qasha does not read those things you mentioned.

Sheol is where evil "christians" or non-Christians stay prior to being sentenced to Hell. There is no way out. This has been the teaching of the Church and Rabi Qasha just had a vision which confirmed this. The Rich man was in Sheol, notice how nothing coould remove him, how there was a barrier between where he was and where Lazarus and his brothers were.

Sheol  is the exact same place it has always been throughout the Bible- God didn't "take it away", and this is part of Rabi Qasha's intended message I believe. People are being deceived by the idea of a "second chance" when in fact you can only go to Heaven or Sheol (and from Sheol to Hell) and there is nothing in between. In the parable of the Rich man he is in Sheol, Lazarus in "Abraham's bosom"- two seperate places with a gulf in between. The Aramaic does not use the word Hades for the dwelling place of the Rich man, but "Sheol" like in the old testament (removes confusion if Sheol or not). The Lord Jesus was probably freeing people like Lazarus, not people who died unrepentant like the rich man.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 01:27:40 AM by Rafa999 » Logged

I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2011, 01:45:14 AM »


It's given for man Once to live  ..Then the Judgment....Maybe the Judgment for the bad ones ,what ever that may be Could be recarnate and try to do better...till one gets it right....The things going on ,on this earth is close to hell on earth...Again thinking out loud...Not saying i believe it though in reincarnation that is... Grin



Sheol sounds like Hell itself if one can't be prayed out ..or the churches  Prayers  avails  not.....



When you see Him Again ...Can You Ask Him.....Please!

Doesn't Eastern Orthodox say, no One is In Hell at the Moment ,,What He is saying  sound very much
Like what those Catholic Apparitions say about people being in hell at this moment.....
Has he been reading Catholic Publications about there Apparitions....
Or Has the Vatican Rome Influence Your Religious somehow.... Huh


Hopefully will see him soon.

The ACOE has never been influenced by any Western Churches. I was surpised he had a vision with the Blessed Virgin in fact, I hear God seeks those who do his will and who donot try to have such visions, his case most probably. The Syriac Orthodox seperated a very long time ago and adopted the doctrine of Cyril, and the "Chaldeans" are Assyrians who broke off in schism to Rome in 1552. Rabi Qasha does not read those things you mentioned.

Sheol is where evil "christians" or non-Christians stay prior to being sentenced to Hell. There is no way out. This has been the teaching of the Church and Rabi Qasha just had a vision which confirmed this. The Rich man was in Sheol, notice how nothing coould remove him, how there was a barrier between where he was and where Lazarus and his brothers were.

Sheol  is the exact same place it has always been throughout the Bible- God didn't "take it away", and this is part of Rabi Qasha's intended message I believe. People are being deceived by the idea of a "second chance" when in fact you can only go to Heaven or Sheol (and from Sheol to Hell) and there is nothing in between. In the parable of the Rich man he is in Sheol, Lazarus in "Abraham's bosom"- two seperate places with a gulf in between. The Aramaic does not use the word Hades for the dwelling place of the Rich man, but "Sheol" like in the old testament (removes confusion if Sheol or not). The Lord Jesus was probably freeing people like Lazarus, not people who died unrepentant like the rich man.
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2011, 02:10:52 AM »

The Elder I am friends with since a long time has wished to confirm what the Assyrian Church of the East teaches concerning the afterlife. He received an answer. The Elder met the Holy Virgin dressed in White and Blue,

In my humble opinion this was not Mary the Mother of God but it was the woman who pops up all over the world appearing to the Roman Catholics.  There are, I have read, 300 reported apparitions of this women in the last century!!   She always wears BLUE and WHITE.

You will note at once that this is not how the Most Blessed Mother of our Saviour is shown in Orthodox icons.   The blue and white woman is well known in Roman Catholicism.  The colours are cold and and used to emphasize her virginity and not her motherhood.

Flee the woman in blue and white.
Logged
GregoryLA
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Moving toward Eastern Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: Western Japan
Posts: 377



« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2011, 02:34:54 AM »

Are there no prayers for those in Hell in the ACOE?
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,170


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2011, 02:40:26 AM »

The Elder I am friends with since a long time has wished to confirm what the Assyrian Church of the East teaches concerning the afterlife. He received an answer. The Elder met the Holy Virgin dressed in White and Blue,

In my humble opinion this was not Mary the Mother of God but it was the woman who pops up all over the world appearing to the Roman Catholics.  There are, I have read, 300 reported apparitions of this women in the last century!!   She always wears BLUE and WHITE.

You will note at once that this is not how the Most Blessed Mother of our Saviour is shown in Orthodox icons.   The blue and white woman is well known in Roman Catholicism.  The colours are cold and and used to emphasize her virginity and not her motherhood.

Flee the woman in blue and white.

Well, if that's what "blue and white" means, it seems to suit the Assyrian tradition, since to them, she's not really a mother of the One she bore.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,734


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2011, 02:54:35 AM »

From what I understand, the Assyrian tradition holds her to be the Mother of Christ, so she is a mother in their tradition, just not the Mother of God. 

They don't have a strong iconic tradition, so the colors of the Virgin Mary's robes may not be of significance to them.
Logged

Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,354

"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2011, 03:10:56 AM »

Good you popped by Minas! This was not the subject of the Elder's Vision, but he also condemned evolution (everybody in the ACOE who is of correct doctrine does). Evolution is of satanic origin since it claims God created death, when in fact he created Adam perfect. the disposition of Adam as a creation and his fall introduced death in the world, therefore evolution is heretical for claiming God created Adam mortal. This is in accordance with the canons of the Seventh ecumenical council of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Amen! The heresy and deception of Darwinian evolution must be thoroughly denounced. You have hit the nail on the head with why this demonic deception is completely incompatible with Orthodoxy. Evolution indeed makes God the author of death, and in order for Orthodox Christians to try and rationalize this fact away they must violently pervert the Scriptures.


Selam
Logged

"Beauty is truth, and Orthodoxy is beautiful." +GMK+
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,170


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2011, 03:15:29 AM »

Good you popped by Minas! This was not the subject of the Elder's Vision, but he also condemned evolution (everybody in the ACOE who is of correct doctrine does). Evolution is of satanic origin since it claims God created death, when in fact he created Adam perfect. the disposition of Adam as a creation and his fall introduced death in the world, therefore evolution is heretical for claiming God created Adam mortal. This is in accordance with the canons of the Seventh ecumenical council of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Amen! The heresy and deception of Darwinian evolution must be thoroughly denounced. You have hit the nail on the head with why this demonic deception is completely incompatible with Orthodoxy. Evolution indeed makes God the author of death, and in order for Orthodox Christians to try and rationalize this fact away they must violently pervert the Scriptures.


Selam

Gebre, it's amazing you like to agree to a vision where it suits you, while it clearly is self-contradictory in its ideas about the Theotokos.

And in the discussions I had with you, you clearly like to say you don't think less of me, but nevertheless, I am a heretic and unOrthodox and a violent perverter of Scriptures.

I misunderstood you.  Perhaps, you don't think less of me as a person.  But certainly not as a brother in Christ to you.

Just a side note Gebre, you also are at odds with many Coptic bishops, probably even the Pope of Alexandria himself, who although I suspect they may personally reject evolution for their own reasons, they don't find anything wrong with the notion that animal death existed before Adam and Eve existed.  For this, I am certainly glad to be part of the Coptic tradition that does not throw away science and put it at odds with faith.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 03:38:56 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2011, 03:49:21 AM »

There are clearly two ladies, or maybe one lady with a bipolar disorder.

We have the tough lady of the ACOE elder and the Assyrians

We have the compassionate lady of the Russians, the lady of the Azure-Blue Ladder


THE AZURE-BLUE LADDER

When the holy Apostle Peter's earthly life had terminated, and he was
called up to Heaven, the Lord gave him the heavenly keys to the gates of
Paradise.

With earnest, priestly devotion, the holy Apostle went about his exalted
business, unlocking the gates of Paradise to the souls of those who had
earned heavenly blessedness in their earthly life, by the decision of the
Most-High and Righteous Judge.  And so he continued for many years, in a
steady and habitual manner.  But, one day, the Apostle Peter came before
the Lord God in a very troubled state, kissed the sleeve of His luminous
robe, and said:

"O Lord, may Thy wrath not come upon me!  I must bring my troubles before
Thee.  Lo! for many days now I have been seeing people whom I have not
allowed in through the gates of Paradise, in this, Thy most illustrious
garden.  I cannot explain how they come to be here.  Their faces do not in
any way resemble the faces of the righteous.  I fear that this may be a
trick of the evil one.  He and his servants are capable of every kind of
craftiness and deceit.  Knowing that the keys are always in my possession
and that there is no other entrance, I am greatly perplexed, even
saddened."

The Lord responded: "It is thy duty and responsibility.  Watch closely
those who enter paradise, and there shall be no unwanted guests."

A few more days passed, and the apostle appeared again before the Lord of
Sabaoth:

"O great and merciful God, every day more and more strangers steal up to
paradise, I know not how, over the heavenly fence.  I address Thy wisdom
and power.  I myself have no power, and my wisdom is insignificant.  Thou
alone art All-knowing."

Then God said: "Come with Me, Saint Peter.  Let us visit together all the
regions of Paradise and let us see for ourselves what is the cause of these
occurrences, that have provoked such justified and praiseworthy unrest in
thee.  Let us go!"

And off they went.  The Lord in front, the Apostle following.  They walked
for a long time, and even got tired.  At last they reached an orchard of
oranges and through the branches glimpsed an azure robe.  Quietly they
approached, and what did they see?  At the foot of the hill, on a green,
daisy-strewn clearing, stood the Most-Holy Virgin, looking down from the
edge of the deep abyss, whence the earth and all the people on it could be
seen.  And in the hands of the Most-Pure One, barely visible, was the most
delicate of ladders, woven from the finest of azure-blue silks.

Passionate cries arose from the abyss.  Fiery supplications from sufferers
could be heard.  And, lo! suddenly the All-Pure One let down the feathery
ladder.  It unrolled; and, one by one, the wretched, tormented, tired,
forgotten people -- men and women -- climbed it, poured into the clearing,
and timidly disappeared into the flowered paths and forests of the gardens
of Paradise.

And as each saved one passed, the Most Holy Mother of God raised up Her
divinely beautiful hands and said with tenderness:

"My Lord and My God, Thou seest, hearest and knowest all.  By Thy
unfathomable mercy, forgive Me for disturbing the order Thou hast
established in Thine holy Paradise.  But I, too, have lived on the earth;
and I, as well, am a mother.  Can I refuse a mother who prays for her
son?  Am I not the Mother of the entirety of weak and suffering
mankind?  Forgive Me My sin."

Then the Lord lay His mighty hand on the Apostle Peter's shoulder and said:
"Let us depart quietly hence.  We have no business here."

 -- Nikolai Leskov


Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,354

"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2011, 04:33:29 AM »

Good you popped by Minas! This was not the subject of the Elder's Vision, but he also condemned evolution (everybody in the ACOE who is of correct doctrine does). Evolution is of satanic origin since it claims God created death, when in fact he created Adam perfect. the disposition of Adam as a creation and his fall introduced death in the world, therefore evolution is heretical for claiming God created Adam mortal. This is in accordance with the canons of the Seventh ecumenical council of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Amen! The heresy and deception of Darwinian evolution must be thoroughly denounced. You have hit the nail on the head with why this demonic deception is completely incompatible with Orthodoxy. Evolution indeed makes God the author of death, and in order for Orthodox Christians to try and rationalize this fact away they must violently pervert the Scriptures.


Selam

Gebre, it's amazing you like to agree to a vision where it suits you, while it clearly is self-contradictory in its ideas about the Theotokos.

And in the discussions I had with you, you clearly like to say you don't think less of me, but nevertheless, I am a heretic and unOrthodox and a violent perverter of Scriptures.

I misunderstood you.  Perhaps, you don't think less of me as a person.  But certainly not as a brother in Christ to you.

Just a side note Gebre, you also are at odds with many Coptic bishops, probably even the Pope of Alexandria himself, who although I suspect they may personally reject evolution for their own reasons, they don't find anything wrong with the notion that animal death existed before Adam and Eve existed.  For this, I am certainly glad to be part of the Coptic tradition that does not throw away science and put it at odds with faith.

Dear Mina,

I thought that we could disagree as brothers in Christ without being disagreeable. Nothing you state here has anything to do with my comments to Rafa. I will continue to believe that evolution is a demonic deception, and I will not temper my view on the matter simply because many of my Orthodox brothers believe in it.

I commented on one particular aspect of the “vision” in question with which I happen to agree. That in no way means that I affirm or deny the entire vision in and of itself. I cannot judge such a thing. All I can do is affirm and attest to the truth wherever it may be found, and reject falsehood whenever I recognize it.

Disagreeing with you does not mean that I think less of you as a person or as a brother in Christ. However, I do think it’s fair to say that we both view the other as being sorely deficient in the grasp of the philosophy of natural science, and I doubt if that will change. If I am wrong, then I pray for the wisdom to recognize my error. I hope you will ask God for the same.

Selam
Logged

"Beauty is truth, and Orthodoxy is beautiful." +GMK+
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,683


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2011, 04:35:35 AM »

Good you popped by Minas! This was not the subject of the Elder's Vision, but he also condemned evolution (everybody in the ACOE who is of correct doctrine does). Evolution is of satanic origin since it claims God created death, when in fact he created Adam perfect. the disposition of Adam as a creation and his fall introduced death in the world, therefore evolution is heretical for claiming God created Adam mortal. This is in accordance with the canons of the Seventh ecumenical council of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Amen! The heresy and deception of Darwinian evolution must be thoroughly denounced. You have hit the nail on the head with why this demonic deception is completely incompatible with Orthodoxy. Evolution indeed makes God the author of death, and in order for Orthodox Christians to try and rationalize this fact away they must violently pervert the Scriptures.


Selam

Gebre, it's amazing you like to agree to a vision where it suits you, while it clearly is self-contradictory in its ideas about the Theotokos.
Yes, one would think a demonic deception regarding the Theotokos much more detrimental to the foundation of our faith than the "demonic" deception of evolution.
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,170


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2011, 04:45:38 AM »

Quote
Disagreeing with you does not mean that I think less of you as a person or as a brother in Christ. However, I do think it’s fair to say that we both view the other as being sorely deficient in the grasp of the philosophy of natural science, and I doubt if that will change. If I am wrong, then I pray for the wisdom to recognize my error. I hope you will ask God for the same.

You're right Gebre, and I agree with you here.  If you feel it's a demonic deception, I can't hold that against you.  But I simply find it hard that you call me a "brother in Christ" except that one thing I hold that's heretical.  It's like saying to someone, "I believe you're an Orthodox Christian, but the beliefs you hold aren't Orthodox."  It's much more consistent to just tell me I'm not an Orthodox Christian, and I'd respect you more for that.

I call your rejection of evolution not a demonic deception, but rather misinformed or misunderstood, and indeed "sorely deficient" in the real understanding of scientific methodology.  If that was the criticism to me, then I'd have no personal problem with it because you neither defaced me as a person or as an Orthodox Christian.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,354

"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2011, 05:07:04 AM »


Quote
Disagreeing with you does not mean that I think less of you as a person or as a brother in Christ. However, I do think it’s fair to say that we both view the other as being sorely deficient in the grasp of the philosophy of natural science, and I doubt if that will change. If I am wrong, then I pray for the wisdom to recognize my error. I hope you will ask God for the same.

You're right Gebre, and I agree with you here.  If you feel it's a demonic deception, I can't hold that against you.  But I simply find it hard that you call me a "brother in Christ" except that one thing I hold that's heretical.  It's like saying to someone, "I believe you're an Orthodox Christian, but the beliefs you hold aren't Orthodox."  It's much more consistent to just tell me I'm not an Orthodox Christian, and I'd respect you more for that.

I call your rejection of evolution not a demonic deception, but rather misinformed or misunderstood, and indeed "sorely deficient" in the real understanding of scientific methodology.  If that was the criticism to me, then I'd have no personal problem with it because you neither defaced me as a person or as an Orthodox Christian.

I understand why you are offended, and I would love nothing more than to say it's merely a difference of scientific opinion. However, I think evolution violently attacks the meaning of Scripture, and thus it does indeed become a matter of theology. But in calling it heretical, I do not mean to condemn to hell professing Christians who believe in this theory. I have many Protestant and Catholic friends who I believe hold to some heretical teachings (and BTW, I'm sure they feel the same about me), but I also think that many of them are much better Christians than I am. The fact that you believe in evolution does not in any way make you a bad person; but in my opinion it does reveal some profound scientific, philosophical, and theological errors on your part. But please belive me when I say that I too probably hold to some profound scientific, philosophical, and theological errors myself. That is why I trust what my Church teaches, for my own arrogant understanding has never gotten me very far. Thus I do my best to proclaim the Teachings and Traditions of my Church, regardless of whether or not they are offensive to those who believe something contrary.

Selam
Logged

"Beauty is truth, and Orthodoxy is beautiful." +GMK+
GregoryLA
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Moving toward Eastern Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: Western Japan
Posts: 377



« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2011, 05:18:14 AM »

...Thus I do my best to proclaim the Teachings and Traditions of my Church, regardless of whether or not they are offensive to those who believe something contrary.

Honest question...

Has the Ethiopian Orthodox Church officially rejected the theory of evolution?  Can you link to something attesting to that?

Thanks!
Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,862



« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2011, 06:13:16 AM »

So doesn't ACOE pray for the dead or was this just some kind of pastoral answer in order to urge the faithful for proper Christian life?
Logged

stavros_388
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: +
Posts: 1,254



« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2011, 11:01:44 AM »

mispost
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 11:04:19 AM by stavros_388 » Logged

"The kingdom of heaven is virtuous life, just as the torment of hell is passionate habits." - St. Gregory of Sinai

"Our idea of God tells us more about ourselves than about Him." - Thomas Merton
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,734


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2011, 12:21:19 PM »

...Thus I do my best to proclaim the Teachings and Traditions of my Church, regardless of whether or not they are offensive to those who believe something contrary.

Honest question...

Has the Ethiopian Orthodox Church officially rejected the theory of evolution?  Can you link to something attesting to that?

Thanks!

Evolution in the Oriental Orthodox Churches is discussed in another thread.  In that thread there is a post explaining how one of the books in the Ethiopian canon seems to preclude a belief in evolution:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23347.msg356877.html#msg356877
Logged

Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,734


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2011, 12:25:02 PM »

So doesn't ACOE pray for the dead or was this just some kind of pastoral answer in order to urge the faithful for proper Christian life?

Good question.  I always assumed that all ancient churches had prayers for the dead.  It would be nice if Rafa could tell us if his Church has them.

However, just because a Church has prayers for the dead, that doesn't mean they teach you can pray someone out of hell.  My Church has prayers for the dead, but my impression has always been that the Church teaches they are helpful, but in what way is a mystery to us.  I know the OO Churches are more reluctant than most to "over-explain" how things work, and it could be the Assyrian Church is the same way.
Logged

Rafa999
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 1,600


« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2011, 02:19:59 PM »

So doesn't ACOE pray for the dead or was this just some kind of pastoral answer in order to urge the faithful for proper Christian life?

Good question.  I always assumed that all ancient churches had prayers for the dead.  It would be nice if Rafa could tell us if his Church has them.

However, just because a Church has prayers for the dead, that doesn't mean they teach you can pray someone out of hell.  My Church has prayers for the dead, but my impression has always been that the Church teaches they are helpful, but in what way is a mystery to us.  I know the OO Churches are more reluctant than most to "over-explain" how things work, and it could be the Assyrian Church is the same way.


Of course the ACOE prays for the dead, how these help is a mystery though just like you say.

 As for the issue of whether the Virgin should be addressed as "Theotokos" you have two choices : believe her relatives (namely the Patriarchs of the Assyrian Church of the East who never taught this tradition and presided over the Church) or believe a few people who argued for this in the fifth century in a council the Eastern Church did not even attend. This title of "Mother of God" is never taught in the tradition of the East. If the Holy Trinity had a Mother, the Lord Jesus Christ would have said such an important thing to Abgar Malka when he wrote to him in the beginnings of the ACOE's evangelisation by Mar Addai and Mar Keefa. The argument of bearing God in her precious womb falls flat since the third Bishop of Antioch was called God bearer yet is not called "Theotokos", nobody is "Theotokos" for being a Christian bearing the Holy Spirit, and further calling the Virgin bearer of God would be an incomplete title since Christ is Perfect man as well as Perfect God and such a title would deny his humanity. If people have to re-evaluate their faith due to this is not my fault. Also Father Ambrose you are incorrect...my fried addressed the Blessed Virgin as "Mother Mary" (to emphasize her Motherhood over all believers) to me when speaking of the Vision.

The Vision of my friend and Spiritual mentor was not on this issue. I also ask people to consider the words of Christ on blasphemy against the Holy Spirit before commenting since this is a serious issue.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 02:28:38 PM by Rafa999 » Logged

I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,170


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2011, 02:43:29 PM »

Sometime came to my mind with this vision.  How does this vision hold with the famous Nestorian saint, Isaac of Nineveh?
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2011, 03:00:34 PM »

So doesn't ACOE pray for the dead or was this just some kind of pastoral answer in order to urge the faithful for proper Christian life?

Good question.  I always assumed that all ancient churches had prayers for the dead.  It would be nice if Rafa could tell us if his Church has them.

However, just because a Church has prayers for the dead, that doesn't mean they teach you can pray someone out of hell.  My Church has prayers for the dead, but my impression has always been that the Church teaches they are helpful, but in what way is a mystery to us.  I know the OO Churches are more reluctant than most to "over-explain" how things work, and it could be the Assyrian Church is the same way.


Of course the ACOE prays for the dead, how these help is a mystery though just like you say.

 As for the issue of whether the Virgin should be addressed as "Theotokos" you have two choices : believe her relatives (namely the Patriarchs of the Assyrian Church of the East who never taught this tradition and presided over the Church) or believe a few people who argued for this in the fifth century in a council the Eastern Church did not even attend. This title of "Mother of God" is never taught in the tradition of the East. If the Holy Trinity had a Mother, the Lord Jesus Christ would have said such an important thing to Abgar Malka when he wrote to him in the beginnings of the ACOE's evangelisation by Mar Addai and Mar Keefa. The argument of bearing God in her precious womb falls flat since the third Bishop of Antioch was called God bearer yet is not called "Theotokos", nobody is "Theotokos" for being a Christian bearing the Holy Spirit, and further calling the Virgin bearer of God would be an incomplete title since Christ is Perfect man as well as Perfect God and such a title would deny his humanity.

Didn't the Latin Catholics and the ACoE agree recently that "Theotokos" was a valid expression of the faith?

COMMON CHRISTOLOGICAL DECLARATION
BETWEEN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
AND THE ASSYRIAN CHURCH OF THE EAST


Given at Saint Peter's, on 11 November 1994

K. MARDINKHA

IOANNES PAULUS PP. II

"The humanity to which the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth always was that of the Son of God himself. That is the reason why the Assyrian Church of the East is praying the Virgin Mary as "the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour". In the light of this same faith the Catholic tradition addresses the Virgin Mary as "the Mother of God" and also as "the Mother of Christ". We both recognize the legitimacy and rightness of these expressions of the same faith and we both respect the preference of each Church in her liturgical life and piety."
....
Living by this faith and these sacraments, it follows as a consequence that the particular Catholic churches and the particular Assyrian churches can recognize each other as sister Churches. To be full and entire, communion presupposes the unanimity concerning the content of the faith, the sacraments and the constitution of the Church. Since this unanimity for which we aim has not yet been attained, we cannot unfortunately celebrate together the Eucharist which is the sign of the ecclesial communion already fully restored.




Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,955


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2011, 04:00:50 PM »

The argument of bearing God in her precious womb falls flat since the third Bishop of Antioch was called God bearer yet is not called "Theotokos", nobody is "Theotokos" for being a Christian bearing the Holy Spirit, and further calling the Virgin bearer of God would be an incomplete title since Christ is Perfect man as well as Perfect God and such a title would deny his humanity.

Christ is one divine person with two natures divine and human.  He receives only his human nature from the Virgin but since he is one person who is both God and Man it is appropriate to call Mary Theotokos/Birthgiver of God.  I was not aware the Assyrians had a problem with Mater Theou/Mother of God.  Theophoros is God bearer.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2011, 04:16:21 PM »

The idea that Mary ascended to Heaven I don't think is taught by the ACOE (will have to check).  The important thing is : Most certainly Mary needed a saviour and since she needed a saviour she must have fallen asleep. This is the Truth.

Boy, that Elijah must have been a swell guy to not need a Savior!
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2011, 04:21:15 PM »


The subject of the Elder's vision was what happens after you die. There was no second chance (ie: purgatory, tollhouses, and praying people out of Sheol or Hell are creations of the devil)-

Purgatory is most certainly not a second chance. When you die, you face Judgment. There are no second chances.

Perhaps your Elder friend could profit from clearing up some of his apparent ignorance.
Logged
Ionnis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,071



« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2011, 05:40:50 PM »

The ACOE venerates Nestorius.  They are heretical.  Therefore we shouldn't take anything their priests say seriously.  This priest supposedly said that there are no second chances, citing purgatory and tollhouses, yet believes souls can be saved after death by the prayer of the Church.  Huh?  Not to mention that the apparitional "Virgin Mary" who is often seen by RC mystics is talking to him now.  I don't know, all sounds fishy to me.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 05:41:52 PM by Ionnis » Logged

"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,170


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2011, 05:54:19 PM »

I must say, this has been a very ecumenical thread now. 

EOs: Blue and white Mary is a farce;
OOs/EOs/RCs:  Mary is Theotokos;
OO:  Assumption does not imply Mary doesn't need a savior;
OO/another OO:  Evolution is evil; no it's not;
RC:  Assumption does not imply Elijah doesn't need a savior;
RC/ACE:  Mother of God is acceptable terminology, since ACE says "Mother of Christ our God and Savior"
RC:  Purgatory is not a second chance
ACE:  She is not the mother of the One who is God in her precious womb

Congratulations, we have successfully brought all four Apostolic traditions together in a crazy dialogue; I think this thread does live up to its name, because it clearly disturbed everyone, and we're simply pushing Rafa's buttons as well.  It would be really really interesting if this actually can happen between church heirarchs in one big room.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 05:57:13 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2011, 06:01:36 PM »

Good question.  I always assumed that all ancient churches had prayers for the dead.  It would be nice if Rafa could tell us if his Church has them.

Even the most serious sin may be forgiven after death and there is salvation from Hell. The scriptural foundation for this is 2 Maccabees 12: 39-45 where prayer and almsgiving by the living obtained the remission of hell-meriting (mortal) sin for the dead.

Then we may look at the words of one of Russia's contemporary respected theologians Metropolitan Hilarion...  I would infer from his words that all of the OO Churches pray for those in hell, with the exception of the Coptic Church which has, only recently, decided against such prayers.

Praying for those in hell...

I was reading an article recently by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev called "Orthodox Worship as a School of Theology", and I came across the following:-

Bishop Hilarion: "Several years ago I came across a short article in a journal of the Coptic Church where it stated that this Church had decided to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books, since these prayers “contradict Orthodox teaching”. Puzzled by this article, I decided to ask a representative of the Coptic Church about the reasons for this move. Recently I had the possibility to do so, and a Coptic Metropolitan replied that the decision was made by his Synod because, according their official doctrine, no prayers can help those in hell.

"I told the metropolitan that in the liturgical practice of the Russian Orthodox Church and other local Orthodox Churches there are prayers for those held in hell, and that we believe in their saving power. This surprised the Metropolitan, and he promised to study this question in more detail."

This Orthodox teaching is contrary to the Roman Catholic.

Here is the original article ...

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx


Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2011, 06:02:56 PM »

The ACOE venerates Nestorius.  They are heretical.  Therefore we shouldn't take anything their priests say seriously.  This priest supposedly said that there are no second chances, citing purgatory and tollhouses, yet believes souls can be saved after death by the prayer of the Church.  Huh?  Not to mention that the apparitional "Virgin Mary" who is often seen by RC mystics is talking to him now.  I don't know, all sounds fishy to me.


The pope wants them, He see's  nothing wrong with them just a different expression in what we all believe he say's ,so he wouldn't mind  being there  supreme leader and they being under him ,that is if they would have him..... Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Tags: Canon of scriptures Church of the East Assyrian evolution prayers for the dead apparitions 
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.16 seconds with 72 queries.