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Author Topic: A Disturbing Vision revealed to me by a Holy Elder  (Read 8239 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 01, 2011, 11:50:59 PM »

Greetings Brothers, Peace and Blessings to you all.


Now, of late I have not wanted to post much here. I feel that I must continue doing my duties in the Church and chatting though nice is too time consuming and I am many times not qualified to discuss certain matters. However, I have been given a great Truth by a Holy Priest of the Assyrian Church of the East, and after thinking about whether to share this with others or not, and hearing the sad line of Cain "Am I my Brother's keeper" sound in my heart and not wishing to repeat that line to myself, I knew that I needed to share this with you all.

Recently, I and my Elder friend and mentor in the ACOE, a wise Rabi Qasha were discussing about the danger of certain false ideas concerning the afterlife in certain churches, a certain church. Rabi Qasha has for me the Wisdom and Kindness of the entire Assyrian Church of the East- the illumination of Mar Ephrem, of Mar Isaac of Nineveh, of Mar Narsai and all the other pearls of the ACOE. A Master of prayer as well. Now here is what happened:

The Elder I am friends with since a long time has wished to confirm what the Assyrian Church of the East teaches concerning the afterlife. He received an answer. The Elder met the Holy Virgin dressed in White and Blue, and she told to him the final fate of human beings. Now describing visions is very difficult but the Elder told me that when you die...if you were not Christian or a Christian who walked in the crooked path (ie: somebody wicked, who ignored the Church's instruction and sacramants for example, somebody with no fruit  in their life) you were placed in Sheol (Hades). Christians who bore fruit and took their sacraments, prayed, did their duties automatically went to Heaven. I then asked the Elder if there was such a thing as a "purgatory" or a "tollhouse", some sort of purification after death, a way out of Sheol. He said No. I asked if after being stored in Sheol you were sentenced to Hell in the Final judgement. The Elder said that I was correct and that is what was told to him : Death and Sheol were to be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation chapter 20:14).

So I urge you my Christian Brothers NOT to believe in the idea that after you die you will get a second chance. "Purgatory", "Tollhouses" and even the idea that you can pray someone out of Sheol (instead of just a mere memorial/dukhrane which is Orthodox) are terrible falsehoods developed by Satan to give people a false sense of security.

I would also like to share that this Elder believes the office of the papacy is something very dangerous and foreign to the Church and that we should flee it quickly. Also his dissaproval of the doctrine of an ascension of the Virgin after death and her not needing a saviour or never dying since this is not a tradition of the Assyrian Church of the East which had several of Saint Joseph's and the Blessed Virgin's family members presiding as it's Patriarchs and it never recorded such a thing (and saying the Virgin is a "co-redeemer" is a dangerous heresy). These last things were not the subject of his vision but I wanted to say it as well while at this. I have done my duty in sharing this valuable information, we now make our own destinies...


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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2011, 11:58:49 PM »

Also his dissaproval of the doctrine of an ascension of the Virgin after death and her not needing a saviour or never dying

Do you mean ascension in the sense of how Christ ascended?  I don't think too many Orthodox would argue with you that she did not ascend.  But what about her Assumption after her death?  I seem to recall that the Church of the East has a feast day for the Virgin Mary on August 15.  Isn't that for her Assumption, which was her body being taken up after her death?
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« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2011, 12:07:17 AM »

The idea that Mary ascended to Heaven I don't think is taught by the ACOE (will have to check).  The important thing is : Most certainly Mary needed a saviour and since she needed a saviour she must have fallen asleep. This is the Truth.
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« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2011, 12:18:17 AM »

My understanding is that the Assumption happened after her death.  It involved her body being taken up.  How her body was taken up of course is a mystery.  The way I heard the story is that after the Virgin Mary died and was placed in a tomb, one of the Apostles who was out of town when she died wanted to look upon her body one last time.  When the tomb was opened, her body was not there and it was revealed to the Apostles that it had been taken up to heaven.

My understanding was that the belief in the Assumption is pretty ancient and predates the schism that divides our Churches.  Orthodox and Catholics both celebrate this on August 15.  I am pretty sure that your Church has a feast day for the Virgin Mary on August 15, and I always figured it must be for the Assumption.

The Assumption is different from Christ's Ascension.  It does not imply that the Virgin Mary did not need a Savior. 
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« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2011, 12:21:41 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2011, 12:28:42 AM »

Rafa999, please see this post: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,32547.0.html.
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« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2011, 12:32:00 AM »

The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.


It's probably best not to open that debate again.   Smiley

The next time you are able to talk to the Elder, though, it would be nice if you can ask him exactly what is commemorated on August 15 in your Church, and whether your Church believes in the Assumption of the Virgin Mary's body after her death.
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« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2011, 12:37:20 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.


Question....
Does the  Asyrian Church of the east still  Believe , Holy Mary is the Christotokos , instead of the Theotokos , or did Mary correct the elder in this ......And Now everyone accepts Her as The Theotokos.......Though

Im still skeptical about talking  Apparitions Visions.....
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« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2011, 12:47:22 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.


Question....
Does the  Syrian Church of the east still  Believe,Holy Mary is the Christostokos , instead of the Theotokos , or did Mary correct the elder in this ......And Now everyone accepts Her as The Theotokos.......Though

Im still skeptical about talking  Apparitions.....

The subject of the Elder's vision was what happens after you die. There was no second chance (ie: purgatory, tollhouses, and praying people out of Sheol or Hell are creations of the devil)- you died and either were stored in Sheol to await your judgement for not having been Christian or having been a false/bad Christian, and then at the final judgement you were sentenced to Hell. I asked the Rabi Qasha whether the word "Alam" (Assyrian word used in Aramaic New Testament) which could supposedly mean a very long time or eternity was proof his vision was wrong and that hell was only for a long time, I cited a famous patristic book. He answered me with something that chilled me: the book which I claimed that said Alam was not eternity was not canonized by the Church precisely for saying that and some other things- Alam means eternity! You spend eternity in Hell.
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« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2011, 12:51:38 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.


Question....
Does the  Syrian Church of the east still  Believe,Holy Mary is the Christostokos , instead of the Theotokos , or did Mary correct the elder in this ......And Now everyone accepts Her as The Theotokos.......Though

Im still skeptical about talking  Apparitions.....

The subject of the Elder's vision was what happens after you die. There was no second chance (ie: purgatory, tollhouses, and praying people out of Hell are creations of the devil)- you died and either were stored in Sheol to await your judgement for not having been Christian or having been a bad Christian, and then at the final judgement you were sentenced to Hell. I asked the Rabi Qasha whether the word "Alam" (Assyrian word used in Aramaic New Testament) which could supposedly mean a very long time or eternity was proof his vision was wrong and that hell was only for a long time, I cited a famous patristic book. He answered me with something that chilled me: the book which I claimed that said Alam was not eternity was not canonized by the Church precisely for saying that and some other things- Alam means eternity! You spend eternity in Hell.

Okay, I have another question.  Your Elder said he accepts that the Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but she can't be called the "God-bearer"?
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« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2011, 12:54:22 AM »

Good you popped by Minas! This was not the subject of the Elder's Vision, but he also condemned evolution (everybody in the ACOE who is of correct doctrine does). Evolution is of satanic origin since it claims God created death, when in fact he created Adam perfect. the disposition of Adam as a creation and his fall introduced death in the world, therefore evolution is heretical for claiming God created Adam mortal. This is in accordance with the canons of the Seventh ecumenical council of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2011, 01:05:13 AM »

When you see Him Again ...Can You Ask Him.....Please!

Sorry read his post wrong.... Grin
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« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2011, 01:06:58 AM »

I think he is using the word Sheol, as a distinct place from hell.   
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« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2011, 01:10:27 AM »

When you see Him Again ...Can You Ask Him.....Please!

Doesn't Eastern Orthodox say, no One is In Hell at the Moment ,,What He is saying  sound very much
Like what those Catholic Apparitions say about people being in hell at this moment.....
Has he been reading Catholic Publications about there Apparitions....
Or Has the Vatican Rome Influence Your Religious somehow.... Huh


Hopefully will see him soon.

The ACOE has never been influenced by any Western Churches. I was surpised he had a vision with the Blessed Virgin in fact, I hear God seeks those who do his will and who donot try to have such visions, his case most probably. The Syriac Orthodox seperated a very long time ago and adopted the doctrine of Cyril, and the "Chaldeans" are Assyrians who broke off in schism to Rome in 1552. Rabi Qasha does not read those things you mentioned.

Sheol is where evil "christians" or non-Christians stay prior to being sentenced to Hell. There is no way out. This has been the teaching of the Church and Rabi Qasha just had a vision which confirmed this. The Rich man (read Luke 16) was in Sheol, notice how nothing could remove him, how there was a barrier between where he was and where Lazarus and his brothers were.
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« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2011, 01:14:05 AM »

Good you popped by Minas! This was not the subject of the Elder's Vision, but he also condemned evolution (everybody in the ACOE who is of correct doctrine does). Evolution is of satanic origin since it claims God created death, when in fact he created Adam perfect. the disposition of Adam as a creation and his fall introduced death in the world, therefore evolution is heretical for claiming God created Adam mortal. This is in accordance with the canons of the Seventh ecumenical council of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Then Lord have mercy on my soul.  I hope the Lord finds room in his heart to see why I am unable to believe you say is true.  But you didn't answer my previous question Rafa.
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« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2011, 01:19:40 AM »

Sheol sounds like Hell itself if one can't be prayed out ..or the churches  Prayers  avails  not.....



When you see Him Again ...Can You Ask Him.....Please!

Doesn't Eastern Orthodox say, no One is In Hell at the Moment ,,What He is saying  sound very much
Like what those Catholic Apparitions say about people being in hell at this moment.....
Has he been reading Catholic Publications about there Apparitions....
Or Has the Vatican Rome Influence Your Religious somehow.... Huh


Hopefully will see him soon.

The ACOE has never been influenced by any Western Churches. I was surpised he had a vision with the Blessed Virgin in fact, I hear God seeks those who do his will and who donot try to have such visions, his case most probably. The Syriac Orthodox seperated a very long time ago and adopted the doctrine of Cyril, and the "Chaldeans" are Assyrians who broke off in schism to Rome in 1552. Rabi Qasha does not read those things you mentioned.

Sheol is where evil "christians" or non-Christians stay prior to being sentenced to Hell. There is no way out. This has been the teaching of the Church and Rabi Qasha just had a vision which confirmed this. The Rich man was in Sheol, notice how nothing coould remove him, how there was a barrier between where he was and where Lazarus and his brothers were.
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« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2011, 01:24:52 AM »

I wonder The person that was in sheol, maybe he had to wait till Christ died and descended,,The Lord could of preached to him as well.and he repented and became one of the saved.....Just Thinking out loud... Grin
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« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2011, 01:25:53 AM »

Sheol sounds like Hell itself if one can't be prayed out ..or the churches  Prayers  avails  not.....



When you see Him Again ...Can You Ask Him.....Please!

Doesn't Eastern Orthodox say, no One is In Hell at the Moment ,,What He is saying  sound very much
Like what those Catholic Apparitions say about people being in hell at this moment.....
Has he been reading Catholic Publications about there Apparitions....
Or Has the Vatican Rome Influence Your Religious somehow.... Huh


Hopefully will see him soon.

The ACOE has never been influenced by any Western Churches. I was surpised he had a vision with the Blessed Virgin in fact, I hear God seeks those who do his will and who donot try to have such visions, his case most probably. The Syriac Orthodox seperated a very long time ago and adopted the doctrine of Cyril, and the "Chaldeans" are Assyrians who broke off in schism to Rome in 1552. Rabi Qasha does not read those things you mentioned.

Sheol is where evil "christians" or non-Christians stay prior to being sentenced to Hell. There is no way out. This has been the teaching of the Church and Rabi Qasha just had a vision which confirmed this. The Rich man was in Sheol, notice how nothing coould remove him, how there was a barrier between where he was and where Lazarus and his brothers were.

Sheol  is the exact same place it has always been throughout the Bible- God didn't "take it away", and this is part of Rabi Qasha's intended message I believe. People are being deceived by the idea of a "second chance" when in fact you can only go to Heaven or Sheol (and from Sheol to Hell) and there is nothing in between. In the parable of the Rich man he is in Sheol, Lazarus in "Abraham's bosom"- two seperate places with a gulf in between. The Aramaic does not use the word Hades for the dwelling place of the Rich man, but "Sheol" like in the old testament (removes confusion if Sheol or not). The Lord Jesus was probably freeing people like Lazarus, not people who died unrepentant like the rich man.
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« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2011, 01:45:14 AM »


It's given for man Once to live  ..Then the Judgment....Maybe the Judgment for the bad ones ,what ever that may be Could be recarnate and try to do better...till one gets it right....The things going on ,on this earth is close to hell on earth...Again thinking out loud...Not saying i believe it though in reincarnation that is... Grin



Sheol sounds like Hell itself if one can't be prayed out ..or the churches  Prayers  avails  not.....



When you see Him Again ...Can You Ask Him.....Please!

Doesn't Eastern Orthodox say, no One is In Hell at the Moment ,,What He is saying  sound very much
Like what those Catholic Apparitions say about people being in hell at this moment.....
Has he been reading Catholic Publications about there Apparitions....
Or Has the Vatican Rome Influence Your Religious somehow.... Huh


Hopefully will see him soon.

The ACOE has never been influenced by any Western Churches. I was surpised he had a vision with the Blessed Virgin in fact, I hear God seeks those who do his will and who donot try to have such visions, his case most probably. The Syriac Orthodox seperated a very long time ago and adopted the doctrine of Cyril, and the "Chaldeans" are Assyrians who broke off in schism to Rome in 1552. Rabi Qasha does not read those things you mentioned.

Sheol is where evil "christians" or non-Christians stay prior to being sentenced to Hell. There is no way out. This has been the teaching of the Church and Rabi Qasha just had a vision which confirmed this. The Rich man was in Sheol, notice how nothing coould remove him, how there was a barrier between where he was and where Lazarus and his brothers were.

Sheol  is the exact same place it has always been throughout the Bible- God didn't "take it away", and this is part of Rabi Qasha's intended message I believe. People are being deceived by the idea of a "second chance" when in fact you can only go to Heaven or Sheol (and from Sheol to Hell) and there is nothing in between. In the parable of the Rich man he is in Sheol, Lazarus in "Abraham's bosom"- two seperate places with a gulf in between. The Aramaic does not use the word Hades for the dwelling place of the Rich man, but "Sheol" like in the old testament (removes confusion if Sheol or not). The Lord Jesus was probably freeing people like Lazarus, not people who died unrepentant like the rich man.
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« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2011, 02:10:52 AM »

The Elder I am friends with since a long time has wished to confirm what the Assyrian Church of the East teaches concerning the afterlife. He received an answer. The Elder met the Holy Virgin dressed in White and Blue,

In my humble opinion this was not Mary the Mother of God but it was the woman who pops up all over the world appearing to the Roman Catholics.  There are, I have read, 300 reported apparitions of this women in the last century!!   She always wears BLUE and WHITE.

You will note at once that this is not how the Most Blessed Mother of our Saviour is shown in Orthodox icons.   The blue and white woman is well known in Roman Catholicism.  The colours are cold and and used to emphasize her virginity and not her motherhood.

Flee the woman in blue and white.
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« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2011, 02:34:54 AM »

Are there no prayers for those in Hell in the ACOE?
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« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2011, 02:40:26 AM »

The Elder I am friends with since a long time has wished to confirm what the Assyrian Church of the East teaches concerning the afterlife. He received an answer. The Elder met the Holy Virgin dressed in White and Blue,

In my humble opinion this was not Mary the Mother of God but it was the woman who pops up all over the world appearing to the Roman Catholics.  There are, I have read, 300 reported apparitions of this women in the last century!!   She always wears BLUE and WHITE.

You will note at once that this is not how the Most Blessed Mother of our Saviour is shown in Orthodox icons.   The blue and white woman is well known in Roman Catholicism.  The colours are cold and and used to emphasize her virginity and not her motherhood.

Flee the woman in blue and white.

Well, if that's what "blue and white" means, it seems to suit the Assyrian tradition, since to them, she's not really a mother of the One she bore.
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« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2011, 02:54:35 AM »

From what I understand, the Assyrian tradition holds her to be the Mother of Christ, so she is a mother in their tradition, just not the Mother of God. 

They don't have a strong iconic tradition, so the colors of the Virgin Mary's robes may not be of significance to them.
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« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2011, 03:10:56 AM »

Good you popped by Minas! This was not the subject of the Elder's Vision, but he also condemned evolution (everybody in the ACOE who is of correct doctrine does). Evolution is of satanic origin since it claims God created death, when in fact he created Adam perfect. the disposition of Adam as a creation and his fall introduced death in the world, therefore evolution is heretical for claiming God created Adam mortal. This is in accordance with the canons of the Seventh ecumenical council of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Amen! The heresy and deception of Darwinian evolution must be thoroughly denounced. You have hit the nail on the head with why this demonic deception is completely incompatible with Orthodoxy. Evolution indeed makes God the author of death, and in order for Orthodox Christians to try and rationalize this fact away they must violently pervert the Scriptures.


Selam
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« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2011, 03:15:29 AM »

Good you popped by Minas! This was not the subject of the Elder's Vision, but he also condemned evolution (everybody in the ACOE who is of correct doctrine does). Evolution is of satanic origin since it claims God created death, when in fact he created Adam perfect. the disposition of Adam as a creation and his fall introduced death in the world, therefore evolution is heretical for claiming God created Adam mortal. This is in accordance with the canons of the Seventh ecumenical council of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Amen! The heresy and deception of Darwinian evolution must be thoroughly denounced. You have hit the nail on the head with why this demonic deception is completely incompatible with Orthodoxy. Evolution indeed makes God the author of death, and in order for Orthodox Christians to try and rationalize this fact away they must violently pervert the Scriptures.


Selam

Gebre, it's amazing you like to agree to a vision where it suits you, while it clearly is self-contradictory in its ideas about the Theotokos.

And in the discussions I had with you, you clearly like to say you don't think less of me, but nevertheless, I am a heretic and unOrthodox and a violent perverter of Scriptures.

I misunderstood you.  Perhaps, you don't think less of me as a person.  But certainly not as a brother in Christ to you.

Just a side note Gebre, you also are at odds with many Coptic bishops, probably even the Pope of Alexandria himself, who although I suspect they may personally reject evolution for their own reasons, they don't find anything wrong with the notion that animal death existed before Adam and Eve existed.  For this, I am certainly glad to be part of the Coptic tradition that does not throw away science and put it at odds with faith.
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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2011, 03:49:21 AM »

There are clearly two ladies, or maybe one lady with a bipolar disorder.

We have the tough lady of the ACOE elder and the Assyrians

We have the compassionate lady of the Russians, the lady of the Azure-Blue Ladder


THE AZURE-BLUE LADDER

When the holy Apostle Peter's earthly life had terminated, and he was
called up to Heaven, the Lord gave him the heavenly keys to the gates of
Paradise.

With earnest, priestly devotion, the holy Apostle went about his exalted
business, unlocking the gates of Paradise to the souls of those who had
earned heavenly blessedness in their earthly life, by the decision of the
Most-High and Righteous Judge.  And so he continued for many years, in a
steady and habitual manner.  But, one day, the Apostle Peter came before
the Lord God in a very troubled state, kissed the sleeve of His luminous
robe, and said:

"O Lord, may Thy wrath not come upon me!  I must bring my troubles before
Thee.  Lo! for many days now I have been seeing people whom I have not
allowed in through the gates of Paradise, in this, Thy most illustrious
garden.  I cannot explain how they come to be here.  Their faces do not in
any way resemble the faces of the righteous.  I fear that this may be a
trick of the evil one.  He and his servants are capable of every kind of
craftiness and deceit.  Knowing that the keys are always in my possession
and that there is no other entrance, I am greatly perplexed, even
saddened."

The Lord responded: "It is thy duty and responsibility.  Watch closely
those who enter paradise, and there shall be no unwanted guests."

A few more days passed, and the apostle appeared again before the Lord of
Sabaoth:

"O great and merciful God, every day more and more strangers steal up to
paradise, I know not how, over the heavenly fence.  I address Thy wisdom
and power.  I myself have no power, and my wisdom is insignificant.  Thou
alone art All-knowing."

Then God said: "Come with Me, Saint Peter.  Let us visit together all the
regions of Paradise and let us see for ourselves what is the cause of these
occurrences, that have provoked such justified and praiseworthy unrest in
thee.  Let us go!"

And off they went.  The Lord in front, the Apostle following.  They walked
for a long time, and even got tired.  At last they reached an orchard of
oranges and through the branches glimpsed an azure robe.  Quietly they
approached, and what did they see?  At the foot of the hill, on a green,
daisy-strewn clearing, stood the Most-Holy Virgin, looking down from the
edge of the deep abyss, whence the earth and all the people on it could be
seen.  And in the hands of the Most-Pure One, barely visible, was the most
delicate of ladders, woven from the finest of azure-blue silks.

Passionate cries arose from the abyss.  Fiery supplications from sufferers
could be heard.  And, lo! suddenly the All-Pure One let down the feathery
ladder.  It unrolled; and, one by one, the wretched, tormented, tired,
forgotten people -- men and women -- climbed it, poured into the clearing,
and timidly disappeared into the flowered paths and forests of the gardens
of Paradise.

And as each saved one passed, the Most Holy Mother of God raised up Her
divinely beautiful hands and said with tenderness:

"My Lord and My God, Thou seest, hearest and knowest all.  By Thy
unfathomable mercy, forgive Me for disturbing the order Thou hast
established in Thine holy Paradise.  But I, too, have lived on the earth;
and I, as well, am a mother.  Can I refuse a mother who prays for her
son?  Am I not the Mother of the entirety of weak and suffering
mankind?  Forgive Me My sin."

Then the Lord lay His mighty hand on the Apostle Peter's shoulder and said:
"Let us depart quietly hence.  We have no business here."

 -- Nikolai Leskov


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« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2011, 04:33:29 AM »

Good you popped by Minas! This was not the subject of the Elder's Vision, but he also condemned evolution (everybody in the ACOE who is of correct doctrine does). Evolution is of satanic origin since it claims God created death, when in fact he created Adam perfect. the disposition of Adam as a creation and his fall introduced death in the world, therefore evolution is heretical for claiming God created Adam mortal. This is in accordance with the canons of the Seventh ecumenical council of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Amen! The heresy and deception of Darwinian evolution must be thoroughly denounced. You have hit the nail on the head with why this demonic deception is completely incompatible with Orthodoxy. Evolution indeed makes God the author of death, and in order for Orthodox Christians to try and rationalize this fact away they must violently pervert the Scriptures.


Selam

Gebre, it's amazing you like to agree to a vision where it suits you, while it clearly is self-contradictory in its ideas about the Theotokos.

And in the discussions I had with you, you clearly like to say you don't think less of me, but nevertheless, I am a heretic and unOrthodox and a violent perverter of Scriptures.

I misunderstood you.  Perhaps, you don't think less of me as a person.  But certainly not as a brother in Christ to you.

Just a side note Gebre, you also are at odds with many Coptic bishops, probably even the Pope of Alexandria himself, who although I suspect they may personally reject evolution for their own reasons, they don't find anything wrong with the notion that animal death existed before Adam and Eve existed.  For this, I am certainly glad to be part of the Coptic tradition that does not throw away science and put it at odds with faith.

Dear Mina,

I thought that we could disagree as brothers in Christ without being disagreeable. Nothing you state here has anything to do with my comments to Rafa. I will continue to believe that evolution is a demonic deception, and I will not temper my view on the matter simply because many of my Orthodox brothers believe in it.

I commented on one particular aspect of the “vision” in question with which I happen to agree. That in no way means that I affirm or deny the entire vision in and of itself. I cannot judge such a thing. All I can do is affirm and attest to the truth wherever it may be found, and reject falsehood whenever I recognize it.

Disagreeing with you does not mean that I think less of you as a person or as a brother in Christ. However, I do think it’s fair to say that we both view the other as being sorely deficient in the grasp of the philosophy of natural science, and I doubt if that will change. If I am wrong, then I pray for the wisdom to recognize my error. I hope you will ask God for the same.

Selam
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« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2011, 04:35:35 AM »

Good you popped by Minas! This was not the subject of the Elder's Vision, but he also condemned evolution (everybody in the ACOE who is of correct doctrine does). Evolution is of satanic origin since it claims God created death, when in fact he created Adam perfect. the disposition of Adam as a creation and his fall introduced death in the world, therefore evolution is heretical for claiming God created Adam mortal. This is in accordance with the canons of the Seventh ecumenical council of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Amen! The heresy and deception of Darwinian evolution must be thoroughly denounced. You have hit the nail on the head with why this demonic deception is completely incompatible with Orthodoxy. Evolution indeed makes God the author of death, and in order for Orthodox Christians to try and rationalize this fact away they must violently pervert the Scriptures.


Selam

Gebre, it's amazing you like to agree to a vision where it suits you, while it clearly is self-contradictory in its ideas about the Theotokos.
Yes, one would think a demonic deception regarding the Theotokos much more detrimental to the foundation of our faith than the "demonic" deception of evolution.
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« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2011, 04:45:38 AM »

Quote
Disagreeing with you does not mean that I think less of you as a person or as a brother in Christ. However, I do think it’s fair to say that we both view the other as being sorely deficient in the grasp of the philosophy of natural science, and I doubt if that will change. If I am wrong, then I pray for the wisdom to recognize my error. I hope you will ask God for the same.

You're right Gebre, and I agree with you here.  If you feel it's a demonic deception, I can't hold that against you.  But I simply find it hard that you call me a "brother in Christ" except that one thing I hold that's heretical.  It's like saying to someone, "I believe you're an Orthodox Christian, but the beliefs you hold aren't Orthodox."  It's much more consistent to just tell me I'm not an Orthodox Christian, and I'd respect you more for that.

I call your rejection of evolution not a demonic deception, but rather misinformed or misunderstood, and indeed "sorely deficient" in the real understanding of scientific methodology.  If that was the criticism to me, then I'd have no personal problem with it because you neither defaced me as a person or as an Orthodox Christian.
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« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2011, 05:07:04 AM »


Quote
Disagreeing with you does not mean that I think less of you as a person or as a brother in Christ. However, I do think it’s fair to say that we both view the other as being sorely deficient in the grasp of the philosophy of natural science, and I doubt if that will change. If I am wrong, then I pray for the wisdom to recognize my error. I hope you will ask God for the same.

You're right Gebre, and I agree with you here.  If you feel it's a demonic deception, I can't hold that against you.  But I simply find it hard that you call me a "brother in Christ" except that one thing I hold that's heretical.  It's like saying to someone, "I believe you're an Orthodox Christian, but the beliefs you hold aren't Orthodox."  It's much more consistent to just tell me I'm not an Orthodox Christian, and I'd respect you more for that.

I call your rejection of evolution not a demonic deception, but rather misinformed or misunderstood, and indeed "sorely deficient" in the real understanding of scientific methodology.  If that was the criticism to me, then I'd have no personal problem with it because you neither defaced me as a person or as an Orthodox Christian.

I understand why you are offended, and I would love nothing more than to say it's merely a difference of scientific opinion. However, I think evolution violently attacks the meaning of Scripture, and thus it does indeed become a matter of theology. But in calling it heretical, I do not mean to condemn to hell professing Christians who believe in this theory. I have many Protestant and Catholic friends who I believe hold to some heretical teachings (and BTW, I'm sure they feel the same about me), but I also think that many of them are much better Christians than I am. The fact that you believe in evolution does not in any way make you a bad person; but in my opinion it does reveal some profound scientific, philosophical, and theological errors on your part. But please belive me when I say that I too probably hold to some profound scientific, philosophical, and theological errors myself. That is why I trust what my Church teaches, for my own arrogant understanding has never gotten me very far. Thus I do my best to proclaim the Teachings and Traditions of my Church, regardless of whether or not they are offensive to those who believe something contrary.

Selam
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« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2011, 05:18:14 AM »

...Thus I do my best to proclaim the Teachings and Traditions of my Church, regardless of whether or not they are offensive to those who believe something contrary.

Honest question...

Has the Ethiopian Orthodox Church officially rejected the theory of evolution?  Can you link to something attesting to that?

Thanks!
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« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2011, 06:13:16 AM »

So doesn't ACOE pray for the dead or was this just some kind of pastoral answer in order to urge the faithful for proper Christian life?
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« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2011, 11:01:44 AM »

mispost
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« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2011, 12:21:19 PM »

...Thus I do my best to proclaim the Teachings and Traditions of my Church, regardless of whether or not they are offensive to those who believe something contrary.

Honest question...

Has the Ethiopian Orthodox Church officially rejected the theory of evolution?  Can you link to something attesting to that?

Thanks!

Evolution in the Oriental Orthodox Churches is discussed in another thread.  In that thread there is a post explaining how one of the books in the Ethiopian canon seems to preclude a belief in evolution:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23347.msg356877.html#msg356877
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« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2011, 12:25:02 PM »

So doesn't ACOE pray for the dead or was this just some kind of pastoral answer in order to urge the faithful for proper Christian life?

Good question.  I always assumed that all ancient churches had prayers for the dead.  It would be nice if Rafa could tell us if his Church has them.

However, just because a Church has prayers for the dead, that doesn't mean they teach you can pray someone out of hell.  My Church has prayers for the dead, but my impression has always been that the Church teaches they are helpful, but in what way is a mystery to us.  I know the OO Churches are more reluctant than most to "over-explain" how things work, and it could be the Assyrian Church is the same way.
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« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2011, 02:19:59 PM »

So doesn't ACOE pray for the dead or was this just some kind of pastoral answer in order to urge the faithful for proper Christian life?

Good question.  I always assumed that all ancient churches had prayers for the dead.  It would be nice if Rafa could tell us if his Church has them.

However, just because a Church has prayers for the dead, that doesn't mean they teach you can pray someone out of hell.  My Church has prayers for the dead, but my impression has always been that the Church teaches they are helpful, but in what way is a mystery to us.  I know the OO Churches are more reluctant than most to "over-explain" how things work, and it could be the Assyrian Church is the same way.


Of course the ACOE prays for the dead, how these help is a mystery though just like you say.

 As for the issue of whether the Virgin should be addressed as "Theotokos" you have two choices : believe her relatives (namely the Patriarchs of the Assyrian Church of the East who never taught this tradition and presided over the Church) or believe a few people who argued for this in the fifth century in a council the Eastern Church did not even attend. This title of "Mother of God" is never taught in the tradition of the East. If the Holy Trinity had a Mother, the Lord Jesus Christ would have said such an important thing to Abgar Malka when he wrote to him in the beginnings of the ACOE's evangelisation by Mar Addai and Mar Keefa. The argument of bearing God in her precious womb falls flat since the third Bishop of Antioch was called God bearer yet is not called "Theotokos", nobody is "Theotokos" for being a Christian bearing the Holy Spirit, and further calling the Virgin bearer of God would be an incomplete title since Christ is Perfect man as well as Perfect God and such a title would deny his humanity. If people have to re-evaluate their faith due to this is not my fault. Also Father Ambrose you are incorrect...my fried addressed the Blessed Virgin as "Mother Mary" (to emphasize her Motherhood over all believers) to me when speaking of the Vision.

The Vision of my friend and Spiritual mentor was not on this issue. I also ask people to consider the words of Christ on blasphemy against the Holy Spirit before commenting since this is a serious issue.
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« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2011, 02:43:29 PM »

Sometime came to my mind with this vision.  How does this vision hold with the famous Nestorian saint, Isaac of Nineveh?
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« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2011, 03:00:34 PM »

So doesn't ACOE pray for the dead or was this just some kind of pastoral answer in order to urge the faithful for proper Christian life?

Good question.  I always assumed that all ancient churches had prayers for the dead.  It would be nice if Rafa could tell us if his Church has them.

However, just because a Church has prayers for the dead, that doesn't mean they teach you can pray someone out of hell.  My Church has prayers for the dead, but my impression has always been that the Church teaches they are helpful, but in what way is a mystery to us.  I know the OO Churches are more reluctant than most to "over-explain" how things work, and it could be the Assyrian Church is the same way.


Of course the ACOE prays for the dead, how these help is a mystery though just like you say.

 As for the issue of whether the Virgin should be addressed as "Theotokos" you have two choices : believe her relatives (namely the Patriarchs of the Assyrian Church of the East who never taught this tradition and presided over the Church) or believe a few people who argued for this in the fifth century in a council the Eastern Church did not even attend. This title of "Mother of God" is never taught in the tradition of the East. If the Holy Trinity had a Mother, the Lord Jesus Christ would have said such an important thing to Abgar Malka when he wrote to him in the beginnings of the ACOE's evangelisation by Mar Addai and Mar Keefa. The argument of bearing God in her precious womb falls flat since the third Bishop of Antioch was called God bearer yet is not called "Theotokos", nobody is "Theotokos" for being a Christian bearing the Holy Spirit, and further calling the Virgin bearer of God would be an incomplete title since Christ is Perfect man as well as Perfect God and such a title would deny his humanity.

Didn't the Latin Catholics and the ACoE agree recently that "Theotokos" was a valid expression of the faith?

COMMON CHRISTOLOGICAL DECLARATION
BETWEEN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
AND THE ASSYRIAN CHURCH OF THE EAST


Given at Saint Peter's, on 11 November 1994

K. MARDINKHA

IOANNES PAULUS PP. II

"The humanity to which the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth always was that of the Son of God himself. That is the reason why the Assyrian Church of the East is praying the Virgin Mary as "the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour". In the light of this same faith the Catholic tradition addresses the Virgin Mary as "the Mother of God" and also as "the Mother of Christ". We both recognize the legitimacy and rightness of these expressions of the same faith and we both respect the preference of each Church in her liturgical life and piety."
....
Living by this faith and these sacraments, it follows as a consequence that the particular Catholic churches and the particular Assyrian churches can recognize each other as sister Churches. To be full and entire, communion presupposes the unanimity concerning the content of the faith, the sacraments and the constitution of the Church. Since this unanimity for which we aim has not yet been attained, we cannot unfortunately celebrate together the Eucharist which is the sign of the ecclesial communion already fully restored.




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« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2011, 04:00:50 PM »

The argument of bearing God in her precious womb falls flat since the third Bishop of Antioch was called God bearer yet is not called "Theotokos", nobody is "Theotokos" for being a Christian bearing the Holy Spirit, and further calling the Virgin bearer of God would be an incomplete title since Christ is Perfect man as well as Perfect God and such a title would deny his humanity.

Christ is one divine person with two natures divine and human.  He receives only his human nature from the Virgin but since he is one person who is both God and Man it is appropriate to call Mary Theotokos/Birthgiver of God.  I was not aware the Assyrians had a problem with Mater Theou/Mother of God.  Theophoros is God bearer.
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« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2011, 04:16:21 PM »

The idea that Mary ascended to Heaven I don't think is taught by the ACOE (will have to check).  The important thing is : Most certainly Mary needed a saviour and since she needed a saviour she must have fallen asleep. This is the Truth.

Boy, that Elijah must have been a swell guy to not need a Savior!
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« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2011, 04:21:15 PM »


The subject of the Elder's vision was what happens after you die. There was no second chance (ie: purgatory, tollhouses, and praying people out of Sheol or Hell are creations of the devil)-

Purgatory is most certainly not a second chance. When you die, you face Judgment. There are no second chances.

Perhaps your Elder friend could profit from clearing up some of his apparent ignorance.
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« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2011, 05:40:50 PM »

The ACOE venerates Nestorius.  They are heretical.  Therefore we shouldn't take anything their priests say seriously.  This priest supposedly said that there are no second chances, citing purgatory and tollhouses, yet believes souls can be saved after death by the prayer of the Church.  Huh?  Not to mention that the apparitional "Virgin Mary" who is often seen by RC mystics is talking to him now.  I don't know, all sounds fishy to me.
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« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2011, 05:54:19 PM »

I must say, this has been a very ecumenical thread now. 

EOs: Blue and white Mary is a farce;
OOs/EOs/RCs:  Mary is Theotokos;
OO:  Assumption does not imply Mary doesn't need a savior;
OO/another OO:  Evolution is evil; no it's not;
RC:  Assumption does not imply Elijah doesn't need a savior;
RC/ACE:  Mother of God is acceptable terminology, since ACE says "Mother of Christ our God and Savior"
RC:  Purgatory is not a second chance
ACE:  She is not the mother of the One who is God in her precious womb

Congratulations, we have successfully brought all four Apostolic traditions together in a crazy dialogue; I think this thread does live up to its name, because it clearly disturbed everyone, and we're simply pushing Rafa's buttons as well.  It would be really really interesting if this actually can happen between church heirarchs in one big room.
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« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2011, 06:01:36 PM »

Good question.  I always assumed that all ancient churches had prayers for the dead.  It would be nice if Rafa could tell us if his Church has them.

Even the most serious sin may be forgiven after death and there is salvation from Hell. The scriptural foundation for this is 2 Maccabees 12: 39-45 where prayer and almsgiving by the living obtained the remission of hell-meriting (mortal) sin for the dead.

Then we may look at the words of one of Russia's contemporary respected theologians Metropolitan Hilarion...  I would infer from his words that all of the OO Churches pray for those in hell, with the exception of the Coptic Church which has, only recently, decided against such prayers.

Praying for those in hell...

I was reading an article recently by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev called "Orthodox Worship as a School of Theology", and I came across the following:-

Bishop Hilarion: "Several years ago I came across a short article in a journal of the Coptic Church where it stated that this Church had decided to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books, since these prayers “contradict Orthodox teaching”. Puzzled by this article, I decided to ask a representative of the Coptic Church about the reasons for this move. Recently I had the possibility to do so, and a Coptic Metropolitan replied that the decision was made by his Synod because, according their official doctrine, no prayers can help those in hell.

"I told the metropolitan that in the liturgical practice of the Russian Orthodox Church and other local Orthodox Churches there are prayers for those held in hell, and that we believe in their saving power. This surprised the Metropolitan, and he promised to study this question in more detail."

This Orthodox teaching is contrary to the Roman Catholic.

Here is the original article ...

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx


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« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2011, 06:02:56 PM »

The ACOE venerates Nestorius.  They are heretical.  Therefore we shouldn't take anything their priests say seriously.  This priest supposedly said that there are no second chances, citing purgatory and tollhouses, yet believes souls can be saved after death by the prayer of the Church.  Huh?  Not to mention that the apparitional "Virgin Mary" who is often seen by RC mystics is talking to him now.  I don't know, all sounds fishy to me.


The pope wants them, He see's  nothing wrong with them just a different expression in what we all believe he say's ,so he wouldn't mind  being there  supreme leader and they being under him ,that is if they would have him..... Grin
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« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2011, 06:15:26 PM »

With regard to the Church of the East and the title "Mother of God," this is taken from chapter 10 of their catechism:

Quote
35)   In what sense can we recognize or acknowledge certain theological terminology used by our beloved sister apostolic churches who will address The Ever Virgin Mary as “The Mother of God”??

The Orthodox position will declare this: The Blessed Mother did not give birth to His Godhead, which is from eternal; but rather she had given birth to His manhood, at the end of time, still it is right to be called “the Mother of God,” why?  Because He who is born of her is at once God and Man.  By way of example: The mother of the President of the United States did not give birth to his presidency, she gave birth to the man; and indeed we call her the mother of the President; and again, the Catholicos Patriarch of the East received his office from The Church, and not from his mother who bore him, and we do call her the mother of the Patriarch.

http://www.acoeyouth.org/Learn/catechism/cat.html

So we see that they allow the title "Mother of God" as long as it is qualified.  I think even Nestorius himself was willing to accept that phrase as long as it was qualified.  It is clear from the above explanation, though, that they see a distinction between Christ's humanity and divinity that is different from what the OO's and EO's are comfortable with.  In other words, according to the Assyrians, Christ's divinity is to Him what the presidency is to Obama.  Both OO's and EO's believe in a more perfect union between the divinity and humanity.
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« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2011, 06:48:59 PM »

Even the most serious sin may be forgiven after death and there is salvation from Hell. The scriptural foundation for this is 2 Maccabees 12: 39-45 where prayer and almsgiving by the living obtained the remission of hell-meriting (mortal) sin for the dead.

Then we may look at the words of one of Russia's contemporary respected theologians Metropolitan Hilarion...  I would infer from his words that all of the OO Churches pray for those in hell, with the exception of the Coptic Church which has, only recently, decided against such prayers.

Here is the text of the prayers for the dead in the Armenian Church:

http://armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Armenian_Church_Requiem_Service

We pray for God's mercy and pity upon the departed, and that He forgive them and number them among the righteous.  I don't think this precludes the hope that those in hell can be saved, but it doesn't specifically state that that is what is being sought.  I don't know.  I've always been taught that it is a mystery as to how the prayers for the departed work and how far they can go in helping a person after death.
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« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2011, 06:52:26 PM »

With regard to the Church of the East and the title "Mother of God," this is taken from chapter 10 of their catechism:

Quote
35)   In what sense can we recognize or acknowledge certain theological terminology used by our beloved sister apostolic churches who will address The Ever Virgin Mary as “The Mother of God”??

The Orthodox position will declare this: The Blessed Mother did not give birth to His Godhead, which is from eternal; but rather she had given birth to His manhood, at the end of time, still it is right to be called “the Mother of God,” why?  Because He who is born of her is at once God and Man.  By way of example: The mother of the President of the United States did not give birth to his presidency, she gave birth to the man; and indeed we call her the mother of the President; and again, the Catholicos Patriarch of the East received his office from The Church, and not from his mother who bore him, and we do call her the mother of the Patriarch.

http://www.acoeyouth.org/Learn/catechism/cat.html

So we see that they allow the title "Mother of God" as long as it is qualified.  I think even Nestorius himself was willing to accept that phrase as long as it was qualified.  It is clear from the above explanation, though, that they see a distinction between Christ's humanity and divinity that is different from what the OO's and EO's are comfortable with.  In other words, according to the Assyrians, Christ's divinity is to Him what the presidency is to Obama.  Both OO's and EO's believe in a more perfect union between the divinity and humanity.

Indeed, that is semi-Adoptionist, if not implied Adoptionist, a blasphemous analogy.  That's like saying she is the Mother of the One who became God, not is God from the very moment of conception.
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« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2011, 06:58:30 PM »

I consider heretical the idea that prayers can help a departed and damned soul escape perdition. However, I will admit that such prayers may have an effect since God exists outside time and thus heard such prayers long before the soul would be damned, helping to prevent that fate. How this might work is a mystery.

Since God happily does not reveal the damned to the living, we should pray for everybody who has died.

But when a man is judged at death, this judgment stands. Consider Jesus's recounting of the rich man and Lazarus.
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« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2011, 07:13:27 PM »

Indeed, that is semi-Adoptionist, if not implied Adoptionist, a blasphemous analogy.  That's like saying she is the Mother of the One who became God, not is God from the very moment of conception.

I get the feeling Theodorean Christology is very similar to Adoptionism, with the main difference being when they believe the Word of God assumed Christ.  I think the Adoptionists believed the Word of God assumed Christ at the time of Christ's baptism.  I think the Theodoreans, on the other hand, believe the union took place either at the time of Christ's birth, or perhaps in the womb.  However, the nature of the union between humanity and divinity seems to be the same in both systems.  In other words, it's the Word of God assuming the man Christ, as opposed to the Word of God assuming our humanity.

Someone who knows this stuff better than I can correct me if I am wrong.
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« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2011, 07:23:40 PM »


I consider heretical the idea that prayers can help a departed and damned soul escape perdition...


There was a time when the Church of Rome believed that souls could be liberated from hell, during the first millennium when it was united in one body with the Universal Church.


"In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell. Thus some argued from a false interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 sq., that Christ freed several damned souls on the occasion of His descent into hell. Others were misled by untrustworthy stories into the belief that the prayers of Gregory the Great rescued the Emperor Trajan from hell. But now theologians are unanimous in teaching that such exceptions never take place and never have taken place, a teaching which should be accepted.

" If this be true, how can the Church pray in the Offertory of the Mass for the dead: "Libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu" etc.? Many think the Church uses these words to designate purgatory. They can be explained more readily, however, if we take into consideration the peculiar spirit of the Church's liturgy; sometimes she refers her prayers not to the time at which they are said, but to the time for which they are said. Thus the offertory in question is referred to the moment when the soul is about to leave the body, although it is actually said some time after that moment; and as if he were actually at the death-beds of the faithful, the priest implores God to preserve their souls from hell. But whichever explanation be preferred, this much remains certain, that in saying that offertory the Church intends to implore only those graces which the soul is still capable of receiving, namely, the grace of a happy death or the release from purgatory."

Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

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« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2011, 08:11:09 PM »

Good question.  I always assumed that all ancient churches had prayers for the dead.  It would be nice if Rafa could tell us if his Church has them.

Even the most serious sin may be forgiven after death and there is salvation from Hell. The scriptural foundation for this is 2 Maccabees 12: 39-45 where prayer and almsgiving by the living obtained the remission of hell-meriting (mortal) sin for the dead.

Then we may look at the words of one of Russia's contemporary respected theologians Metropolitan Hilarion...  I would infer from his words that all of the OO Churches pray for those in hell, with the exception of the Coptic Church which has, only recently, decided against such prayers.

Praying for those in hell...

I was reading an article recently by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev called "Orthodox Worship as a School of Theology", and I came across the following:-

Bishop Hilarion: "Several years ago I came across a short article in a journal of the Coptic Church where it stated that this Church had decided to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books, since these prayers “contradict Orthodox teaching”. Puzzled by this article, I decided to ask a representative of the Coptic Church about the reasons for this move. Recently I had the possibility to do so, and a Coptic Metropolitan replied that the decision was made by his Synod because, according their official doctrine, no prayers can help those in hell.

"I told the metropolitan that in the liturgical practice of the Russian Orthodox Church and other local Orthodox Churches there are prayers for those held in hell, and that we believe in their saving power. This surprised the Metropolitan, and he promised to study this question in more detail."

This Orthodox teaching is contrary to the Roman Catholic.

Here is the original article ...

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx




2 Maccabees was never canonized by the Eastern Church or the Jews. The ACOE also has the most reliable Old Testament in existence, the Peshitta Tanakh used by Babylonian Jewry which the ACOE ancestors finished standardizing around the first century when Christians if I am correct. It knows perfectly well what goes into the canon and what does not because it compiled the books. The deuterocanonical books were written by Hellinistic Jews considered heretical. Saint Athanasius warned that they should not be put in the canon under any means and only be given to Catachumens for reading because these books were stuffed with heresy. Jerome gave the same warning and he translated the vulgate of Roman Catholics.These books were canonized only as a reaction to protestants . However, in the East they were never canonized and the Orthodox opinion of the Apostles expressed by the Western St.Athanasius (and every single Eastern Holy Expositor of the scriptures) was the one which prevailed.


As for the business of "praying people out of Hell" by celebrating liturgies, well that's a sugar coated purgatory.  In the Anaphora of Mar Addai and Mar Mari which is the oldest liturgy in the world and written by a disciple of Christ (Mar Addai and his succesor Mar Mari) there is no mention whatsoever of people being removed from Sheol, being saved post-mortem. It would be abominable to say that the Apostles discipled people in the East and West differently. Therefore someone changed the Liturgy relatively recently. I know this never happened in the East and Scholars already said it is the oldest liturgy so the conclusion Father Ambrose is that somebody introduced this thing of praying people out of Sheol and post-mortem salvation, etc. in the West.

Salpy, there is nothing "adoptionistic" about Saint  Theodore. He was taught by Diodorus of Tarsus who was of the school of the Cappadocian Fathers. In fact Saint Theodore and Saint John Chrysostom were most excellent friends and study buddies. Is Saint John Chrysostom a heretic?  But anyways, this is of no concern for the ACOE since Mar Theodore was a Westerner. He was given an honorary title of "Interpreter" for defending the correct Apostolic Christology of two natures in Christ (perfect man and perfect God) but he was one of your own not part of the ACOE ecclesiastical structure in any way. I recognize he did mistakes though (he taught universalism for example and questioned the Book of Job's part in the canon, which are errors) but his Christology was correct and vindicated in the West itself. The Church in the West believes in 2 natures completely seperated and with no mixture just like he taught.


Lastly,it should said that much of the theology people he are taking as "ecumenical" and the truth which fell from the sky was never agreed to, or never under consultation with the Eastern Church, the actual Church whose Jesus's relatives served as Patriarchs, which spoke his language, did the scribal work for the New Testament preserving it, gave the world the Old testament in it's most secure form, in short the Church where Salvation first appeared to (and that's a fact since the ACOE was the only Church Christ personally spoke to...via Abgar Malka who converted Edessa). Please keep that in mind, it is not my fault that the existence of the ACOE rattles the "original Church model" many here suscribe to.
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« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2011, 08:19:09 PM »

Rafa999, what is purgatory according to you?
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« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2011, 08:21:52 PM »

Rafa999, what is purgatory according to you?

A Horrible lie invented by Satan which teaches you can pay yourself out of Sheol/Hades after you die if you have enough liturgies/masses, prayers, money, or a decree by the pope/patriarch. It perverts God's Justice and scripture where the Rich man was condemned no matter what he said or did (those to the Left) while Lazarus awaited paradise (those to the Right hand of God)
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« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2011, 08:23:01 PM »


2 Maccabees was never canonized by the Eastern Church or the Jews. The ACOE also has the most reliable Old Testament in existence, the Peshitta Tanakh used by Babylonian Jewry which the ACOE ancestors finished standardizing around the first century when Christians if I am correct.

Rafa,

I always wondered about the Old Testament canon of the ACOE.  Is it the same as the Protestants?  Is there a website that lists the Old Testament canon of your Church?
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« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2011, 08:31:36 PM »


2 Maccabees was never canonized by the Eastern Church or the Jews. The ACOE also has the most reliable Old Testament in existence, the Peshitta Tanakh used by Babylonian Jewry which the ACOE ancestors finished standardizing around the first century when Christians if I am correct.

Rafa,

I always wondered about the Old Testament canon of the ACOE.  Is it the same as the Protestants?  Is there a website that lists the Old Testament canon of your Church?

The canon is in the catechism :

9)   How do the Church Fathers of the early Church enumerate The Books of the Old Testament?

1, The Book of Genesis;

    2, The Book of Exodus;

3, The Book of Leviticus;

4, The Book of Numbers;

5, The Book of Deuteronomy;

6, The Book of Joshua, son of Nun;

       7, The Book of Judges, and with it as an appendix

              The Book of Ruth;

8, The I & II Books of Kings, as two parts of one         book;

9, The III and IV Books of Kings;

10, The I and II Paralipomenon (I & II Chronicles);

11, The I Book of Esdras, and the II or, as it is

      Named in Nehemiah;

12, The Book of Esther;

13, The Book of Job;

14, The Psalms;

15, The Proverbs of Solomon;

16, The Ecclesiastes, also by Solomon;

17, The Song of Songs, also by Solomon;

18, The Book of the Prophet Isaiah;

19, The Book of Jeremiah;

20, The Book of the Prophet Ezekiel;

21, The Book of the Prophet Daniel;

22, The Book of the Twelve Prophets.

 

10)  We have other Old Testament Books, but they are not noted here, such as The Wisdom of the son of Sirach, and of others, why?

These books do not exist in the Hebrew language, but they are in the Greek texts.

 

11) How does the Church of the East regard these other books which are not included in the original Hebrew?

St Athanasis, as a Church Father, had declared that these books were included in the reading requirements of the proselytes who are preparing for admission into the Holy Church through Holy Baptism.
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« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2011, 08:40:45 PM »

Rafa999, what is purgatory according to you?

A Horrible lie invented by Satan which teaches you can pay yourself out of Sheol/Hades after you die if you have enough liturgies/masses, prayers, money, or a decree by the pope/patriarch. It perverts God's Justice and scripture where the Rich man was condemned no matter what he said or did (those to the Left) while Lazarus awaited paradise (those to the Right hand of God)
You are mistaken. One lie doesn't justify another. I suggest you do a little research from a RC source if you are truly interested in hearing it straight from the horse's mouth.
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« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2011, 08:43:14 PM »

Good question.  I always assumed that all ancient churches had prayers for the dead.  It would be nice if Rafa could tell us if his Church has them.

Even the most serious sin may be forgiven after death and there is salvation from Hell. The scriptural foundation for this is 2 Maccabees 12: 39-45 where prayer and almsgiving by the living obtained the remission of hell-meriting (mortal) sin for the dead.

Then we may look at the words of one of Russia's contemporary respected theologians Metropolitan Hilarion...  I would infer from his words that all of the OO Churches pray for those in hell, with the exception of the Coptic Church which has, only recently, decided against such prayers.

Praying for those in hell...

I was reading an article recently by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev called "Orthodox Worship as a School of Theology", and I came across the following:-

Bishop Hilarion: "Several years ago I came across a short article in a journal of the Coptic Church where it stated that this Church had decided to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books, since these prayers “contradict Orthodox teaching”. Puzzled by this article, I decided to ask a representative of the Coptic Church about the reasons for this move. Recently I had the possibility to do so, and a Coptic Metropolitan replied that the decision was made by his Synod because, according their official doctrine, no prayers can help those in hell.

"I told the metropolitan that in the liturgical practice of the Russian Orthodox Church and other local Orthodox Churches there are prayers for those held in hell, and that we believe in their saving power. This surprised the Metropolitan, and he promised to study this question in more detail."

This Orthodox teaching is contrary to the Roman Catholic.

Here is the original article ...

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx




30,000 Ethiopians were delivered from hell through the prayers and asceticism of St. Gebre Menfes Kidus:

And our Lord said unto him, “Be strong and fear not in seeing Me, for I have given thee a bold heart, that thou mayest look at Me Myself, even as Abukalamsis (i.e. John of the Apocalypse) looked upon Me.  What dost thou wish for, and what dost thou ask of Me?  I have come to thee that thou mightest see Me; what thou wishest I will do for thee, My beloved one, whom I chose before thou hadst being, and I have made thee pure, My chosen one.  Thou hast dwelt in the desert seventy or eighty years at a time, thou hast wandered through the deserts doubting nothing, thou hast not feared to dwell with lions, and thou hast endured, and been of good cheer even unto death.  And now, verily, I will not refuse what thou shalt ask of Me; whatsoever thou desirest I will perform for thee.”  

When our father heard God utter this great mystery, he rejoiced and said, “My Lord and my God, I am not worthy that Thou shouldst do for me as Thou hast done for others like me.  Now, grant me ten mercies.  Have mercy for my sake upon the men of the land of Gabota, who are sinners, for Thou didst not come into the world to call the righteous, who have no need to repent, but to turn sinners to repentance.  Remember, O Lord, those in the Judgment, whose tears flow like the waters of winter, and who gnash their teeth, and who acted as they did in ignorance, Satan having led them into error.  Have mercy upon them, O Lord, and shew compassion unto them.”

And our Lord said unto our father Gabra Manfas Kedus, “They say hard things.  It hath been head that I do not do unto them as unto the others, who are righteous peoples, and are pure, and have borne toil upon earth.  And as to that which thou askest Me; I do not destroy a monk for the sake of one sin.  If his wickednesses are many, and his sins are many, after he hath entered the fire he becometh subject for judgment.  When he beseecheth Me with great labour I make the soul of that man to go forth from him, and I scatter it among the winds, and not a trace of it is ever found; at the resurrection of the dead it is not in the abode of the righteous, or in the abode of sinners.  In thy case it is not thus; according to My mercy I will have mercy upon thee, for I have given thee a promise that I will do whatsoever thou askest Me.”  

When our father heard this, he rejoiced and bowed his face.  And all the heavenly beings rejoiced and said, “Redemption is with our God.  Amen.”  And our father also said unto God, “How great is Thy mercy, my Lord?”  And God said, “To each of thy years according to the length of thy days I will add two years”; and forthwith the days of our father were made to be three hundred years.  And our Lord said unto the archangels, “Go ye and bring souls forth from judgment, and release them and give them to the blessed Gabra Manfas Kedus.”  And the seven angels went down to the Gahanam of fire, the place of sinners.  At that moment came ‘Abd Almakos, the angel of Gahanam, who hath power over the tortures of sinners, and brought out there from the men of the land of Gabota.  And the number of the souls who went forth from judgment was thirty thousand, and the seven angels led them on their way, and guided them- namely Michael and Gabriel, each with his pilgrims, Saku’el and Ramu’el, each with his great ones - and Fanu’el blew a trumpet before them.  And the other angels were uttering cries of joy, until they came before the throne of God in the heavens, and saying, “Glory to God in the heavens, and peace upon earth, His good will to men.”

                                   [from the Ethiopian Synaxarium]

Selam
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« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2011, 08:47:37 PM »

I consider heretical the idea that prayers can help a departed and damned soul escape perdition. However, I will admit that such prayers may have an effect since God exists outside time and thus heard such prayers long before the soul would be damned, helping to prevent that fate. How this might work is a mystery.

Since God happily does not reveal the damned to the living, we should pray for everybody who has died.

But when a man is judged at death, this judgment stands. Consider Jesus's recounting of the rich man and Lazarus.


Amen.
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« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2011, 10:06:34 PM »


2 Maccabees was never canonized by the Eastern Church or the Jews. The ACOE also has the most reliable Old Testament in existence, the Peshitta Tanakh used by Babylonian Jewry which the ACOE ancestors finished standardizing around the first century when Christians if I am correct.

Rafa,

I always wondered about the Old Testament canon of the ACOE.  Is it the same as the Protestants?  Is there a website that lists the Old Testament canon of your Church?

The canon is in the catechism :

9)   How do the Church Fathers of the early Church enumerate The Books of the Old Testament?

1, The Book of Genesis;

    2, The Book of Exodus;

3, The Book of Leviticus;

4, The Book of Numbers;

5, The Book of Deuteronomy;

6, The Book of Joshua, son of Nun;

       7, The Book of Judges, and with it as an appendix

              The Book of Ruth;

8, The I & II Books of Kings, as two parts of one         book;

9, The III and IV Books of Kings;

10, The I and II Paralipomenon (I & II Chronicles);

11, The I Book of Esdras, and the II or, as it is

      Named in Nehemiah;

12, The Book of Esther;

13, The Book of Job;

14, The Psalms;

15, The Proverbs of Solomon;

16, The Ecclesiastes, also by Solomon;

17, The Song of Songs, also by Solomon;

18, The Book of the Prophet Isaiah;

19, The Book of Jeremiah;

20, The Book of the Prophet Ezekiel;

21, The Book of the Prophet Daniel;

22, The Book of the Twelve Prophets.

 

10)  We have other Old Testament Books, but they are not noted here, such as The Wisdom of the son of Sirach, and of others, why?

These books do not exist in the Hebrew language, but they are in the Greek texts.

 

11) How does the Church of the East regard these other books which are not included in the original Hebrew?

St Athanasis, as a Church Father, had declared that these books were included in the reading requirements of the proselytes who are preparing for admission into the Holy Church through Holy Baptism.


Thank you for this.  I'm still trying to determine if this is the same as the Masoretic used by the Protestants, or if it has fewer books than they have.  It seems to have one or two books less, but I'm not sure.  Maybe someone who is better at this than I am can look at this and tell.

The last one, the Book of the 12 Prophets, is the 12 books of the Minor Prophets, right?  It think they are the following:

Hosea
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Joel
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

(I got this from Wikipedia.   Smiley )

I don't see Lamentations.  Does the Assyrian Church have Lamentations?  Also, are the two books known as first and second Samuel included in the four books of Kings?  I think that is how it is in the Orthodox canon.

I just find this interesting.  
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« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2011, 10:23:38 PM »

It is the Jewish Jerusalem reckoning of the canon inherited from Babylonian Jewry (ancestors of ACOE):

8 )  Why do we need to assent to the Jewish Jerusalem reckoning of these books?

We refer you to the writings of St Paul the Treasurer of the Church, where he states in the Epistle to the Roman Church, “ . . much every way: chiefly, because that, unto them was committed the oracles of God.” (3:2), which is by interpretation, meaning simply, that The Holy Writings of the Old Testament had been received from the Hebrew Church (in Jerusalem) by the Christian Church of the New Testament of Jerusalem



By the way, it is also the conclusion adopted up until the 9th century by Eastern Orthodoxy too (to not canonize books of dubious origin with false doctrine):

Quote
The Stichometery of Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople (806-815 A.D.)

    And the (writings) of the Old Testament which are gainsaid and are not recognized in the Church [canonized] are the following:

    1. 3 Books of the Maccabees 7300 lines
    2. The Wisdom of Solomon 1100 lines
    3. The Wisdom of Jesus Sirach 2800 lines
    4. The Psalms and Odes of Solomon 2100 lines
    5. Esther 350 lines*
    6. Judith 1700 lines
    7. Susanna 500 lines
    8. Tobith, also (called) Tobias 700 lines

*of course Esther is canonical
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« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2011, 10:45:52 PM »

For a number of centuries the canon varied from place to place.  Among the Oriental Orthodox, there is still diversity in the Old Testament canon.

I think St. Athanasius, whom the Protestants and your Church cite in support of your canon, also did not like Esther.  That book barely made it in.  Esther is also not found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, but Enoch is. 

As of the mid-400's the Armenians had the Maccabean books, since they were read on the eve of the battle of Avarayr.
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« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2011, 10:49:23 PM »

For a number of centuries the canon varied from place to place.  Among the Oriental Orthodox, there is still diversity in the Old Testament canon.

I think St. Athanasius, whom the Protestants and your Church cite in support of your canon, also did not like Esther.  That book barely made it in.  Esther is also not found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, but Enoch is. 

As of the mid-400's the Armenians had the Maccabean books, since they were read on the eve of the battle of Avarayr.

Esther is part of the canon minus the additions.
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« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2011, 11:29:54 PM »

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.xxv.iii.iii.xxv.html

Quote from: St. Athanasius' 39th Festal Letter
But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read; nor is there in any place a mention of apocryphal writings. But they are an invention of heretics, who write them when they choose, bestowing upon them their approbation, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as ancient writings, they may find occasion to lead astray the simple.
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« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2011, 11:33:00 PM »

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.xxv.iii.iii.xxv.html

Quote from: St. Athanasius' 39th Festal Letter
But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read; nor is there in any place a mention of apocryphal writings. But they are an invention of heretics, who write them when they choose, bestowing upon them their approbation, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as ancient writings, they may find occasion to lead astray the simple.

Yes, they are not in the Canon, and they should be read by the catachumens. No conflict except for St.Athanasius believing Esther should not be in the canon which of course it should be (minus the additions).
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« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2011, 11:38:19 PM »

St. Athanasius also lists Lamentations and Baruch. 

Maybe Lamentations in the Assyrian Bible is included in Jeremiah?

I don't think Baruch is in either the Protestant or Assyrian canons.

From what I understand you don't see an early Church Father listing a canon that looks exactly like any of the ones we have today.
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« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2011, 11:47:57 PM »

I think lamentations is in the canon, I am not sure though. Baruch is not part of the canon.
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« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2011, 10:04:20 AM »

There are clearly two ladies, or maybe one lady with a bipolar disorder.

We have the tough lady of the ACOE elder and the Assyrians

We have the compassionate lady of the Russians, the lady of the Azure-Blue Ladder


THE AZURE-BLUE LADDER

When the holy Apostle Peter's earthly life had terminated, and he was
called up to Heaven, the Lord gave him the heavenly keys to the gates of
Paradise.

With earnest, priestly devotion, the holy Apostle went about his exalted
business, unlocking the gates of Paradise to the souls of those who had
earned heavenly blessedness in their earthly life, by the decision of the
Most-High and Righteous Judge.  And so he continued for many years, in a
steady and habitual manner.  But, one day, the Apostle Peter came before
the Lord God in a very troubled state, kissed the sleeve of His luminous
robe, and said:

"O Lord, may Thy wrath not come upon me!  I must bring my troubles before
Thee.  Lo! for many days now I have been seeing people whom I have not
allowed in through the gates of Paradise, in this, Thy most illustrious
garden.  I cannot explain how they come to be here.  Their faces do not in
any way resemble the faces of the righteous.  I fear that this may be a
trick of the evil one.  He and his servants are capable of every kind of
craftiness and deceit.  Knowing that the keys are always in my possession
and that there is no other entrance, I am greatly perplexed, even
saddened."

The Lord responded: "It is thy duty and responsibility.  Watch closely
those who enter paradise, and there shall be no unwanted guests."

A few more days passed, and the apostle appeared again before the Lord of
Sabaoth:

"O great and merciful God, every day more and more strangers steal up to
paradise, I know not how, over the heavenly fence.  I address Thy wisdom
and power.  I myself have no power, and my wisdom is insignificant.  Thou
alone art All-knowing."

Then God said: "Come with Me, Saint Peter.  Let us visit together all the
regions of Paradise and let us see for ourselves what is the cause of these
occurrences, that have provoked such justified and praiseworthy unrest in
thee.  Let us go!"

And off they went.  The Lord in front, the Apostle following.  They walked
for a long time, and even got tired.  At last they reached an orchard of
oranges and through the branches glimpsed an azure robe.  Quietly they
approached, and what did they see?  At the foot of the hill, on a green,
daisy-strewn clearing, stood the Most-Holy Virgin, looking down from the
edge of the deep abyss, whence the earth and all the people on it could be
seen.  And in the hands of the Most-Pure One, barely visible, was the most
delicate of ladders, woven from the finest of azure-blue silks.

Passionate cries arose from the abyss.  Fiery supplications from sufferers
could be heard.  And, lo! suddenly the All-Pure One let down the feathery
ladder.  It unrolled; and, one by one, the wretched, tormented, tired,
forgotten people -- men and women -- climbed it, poured into the clearing,
and timidly disappeared into the flowered paths and forests of the gardens
of Paradise.

And as each saved one passed, the Most Holy Mother of God raised up Her
divinely beautiful hands and said with tenderness:

"My Lord and My God, Thou seest, hearest and knowest all.  By Thy
unfathomable mercy, forgive Me for disturbing the order Thou hast
established in Thine holy Paradise.  But I, too, have lived on the earth;
and I, as well, am a mother.  Can I refuse a mother who prays for her
son?  Am I not the Mother of the entirety of weak and suffering
mankind?  Forgive Me My sin."

Then the Lord lay His mighty hand on the Apostle Peter's shoulder and said:
"Let us depart quietly hence.  We have no business here."

 -- Nikolai Leskov




Thank you Father for this post.
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« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2011, 11:21:31 AM »

The idea that Mary ascended to Heaven I don't think is taught by the ACOE (will have to check).  The important thing is : Most certainly Mary needed a saviour and since she needed a saviour she must have fallen asleep. This is the Truth.

Boy, that Elijah must have been a swell guy to not need a Savior!

What gives you that idea?  Elijah and Enoch will die, too.  They are just taking their time about it.  Heck, it will probably be the Pope that will kill them.
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« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2011, 11:57:38 AM »


2 Maccabees was never canonized by the Eastern Church or the Jews. The ACOE also has the most reliable Old Testament in existence, the Peshitta Tanakh used by Babylonian Jewry which the ACOE ancestors finished standardizing around the first century when Christians if I am correct.

Rafa,

I always wondered about the Old Testament canon of the ACOE.  Is it the same as the Protestants?  Is there a website that lists the Old Testament canon of your Church?

The canon is in the catechism :

9)   How do the Church Fathers of the early Church enumerate The Books of the Old Testament?

1, The Book of Genesis;

    2, The Book of Exodus;

3, The Book of Leviticus;

4, The Book of Numbers;

5, The Book of Deuteronomy;

6, The Book of Joshua, son of Nun;

       7, The Book of Judges, and with it as an appendix

              The Book of Ruth;

8, The I & II Books of Kings, as two parts of one         book;

9, The III and IV Books of Kings;

10, The I and II Paralipomenon (I & II Chronicles);

11, The I Book of Esdras, and the II or, as it is

      Named in Nehemiah;

12, The Book of Esther;

13, The Book of Job;

14, The Psalms;

15, The Proverbs of Solomon;

16, The Ecclesiastes, also by Solomon;

17, The Song of Songs, also by Solomon;

18, The Book of the Prophet Isaiah;

19, The Book of Jeremiah;

20, The Book of the Prophet Ezekiel;

21, The Book of the Prophet Daniel;

22, The Book of the Twelve Prophets.

 

10)  We have other Old Testament Books, but they are not noted here, such as The Wisdom of the son of Sirach, and of others, why?

These books do not exist in the Hebrew language, but they are in the Greek texts.

 

11) How does the Church of the East regard these other books which are not included in the original Hebrew?

St Athanasis, as a Church Father, had declared that these books were included in the reading requirements of the proselytes who are preparing for admission into the Holy Church through Holy Baptism.


Thank you for this.  I'm still trying to determine if this is the same as the Masoretic used by the Protestants, or if it has fewer books than they have.  It seems to have one or two books less, but I'm not sure.  Maybe someone who is better at this than I am can look at this and tell.

The last one, the Book of the 12 Prophets, is the 12 books of the Minor Prophets, right?  It think they are the following:

Hosea
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Joel
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

(I got this from Wikipedia.   Smiley )

I don't see Lamentations.  Does the Assyrian Church have Lamentations?  Also, are the two books known as first and second Samuel included in the four books of Kings?  I think that is how it is in the Orthodox canon.

I just find this interesting.  

They could of been influenced by protestants......just like we all were to some degree. So it might be good to check and see what their books were before 1517A.D.
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« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2011, 01:15:12 PM »

Jnorm, protestants only appeared to the ACOE very very late- the mountains were innacessible to them. By then the reading cycle was set and it did not contain references to these books being canonical. Don't worry, these books were not accepted in the West for the most part (St. Nicephorus the Patriarch of Constantinople called them "gainsay" and not accepted by the Church in the 9th Century !) up until the protestants caused the Western Church to canonize them (RCC in Trent and Orthodox while writing the RCC influenced Long and short catechisms of the 1692 EO council of Jerusalem...)


Quote
Thank you Father for this post.

I looked up who this Nikolai Leskov who wrote that fiction was. He was a friend of Leo Tolstoy who is excommunicated by the ROC. Also from wikipedia :

Quote
Leskov served on the Scholarly Committee of the Ministry of Education from 1874. He was dismissed in 1883 due to his too liberal views. After a religious crisis in the mid-1870s he published several stories which questioned Orthodox Christianity.

So you see...Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If it is convenient for him for Christians to believe the damned will be fished out of Sheol (the resting place for the damned) instead of facing their terrible final judgement, just use an enemy of the Church to write a convenient fable...
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« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2011, 01:20:37 PM »

The idea that Mary ascended to Heaven I don't think is taught by the ACOE (will have to check).  The important thing is : Most certainly Mary needed a saviour and since she needed a saviour she must have fallen asleep. This is the Truth.

Boy, that Elijah must have been a swell guy to not need a Savior!

What gives you that idea?  Elijah and Enoch will die, too.  They are just taking their time about it.  Heck, it will probably be the Pope that will kill them.

Come on, that was unnecessary...besides, the Rafa's priest's vision didn't tell us anything about who will kill Elijah and Enoch, but I await a sequel  Tongue
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« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2011, 01:24:45 PM »

The idea that Mary ascended to Heaven I don't think is taught by the ACOE (will have to check).  The important thing is : Most certainly Mary needed a saviour and since she needed a saviour she must have fallen asleep. This is the Truth.

Boy, that Elijah must have been a swell guy to not need a Savior!

What gives you that idea?  Elijah and Enoch will die, too.  They are just taking their time about it.  Heck, it will probably be the Pope that will kill them.

Come on, that was unnecessary...besides, the Rafa's priest's vision didn't tell us anything about who will kill Elijah and Enoch, but I await a sequel  Tongue


Maybe he caught a "glimpse" of who that person might be...I asked him who was in Hell for the most part, he said he could not see that deeply, he could not even see Sheol. He did catching some fleeting glimpses of Paradise though and he said it was a very "Calm" and "Peaceful" place. There was something concerning Jesus and the entrance of paradise which the Virgin said, I will ask in more detail if my friend and Spiritual Superior is disposed to answer.


I do warn that my friend said that the pope kissing the Quran and preaching evolution was apostasy and he gave me this verse :

Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.

-Revelation 2:5
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« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2011, 03:27:48 PM »

Jnorm, protestants only appeared to the ACOE very very late- the mountains were innacessible to them. By then the reading cycle was set and it did not contain references to these books being canonical. Don't worry, these books were not accepted in the West for the most part (St. Nicephorus the Patriarch of Constantinople called them "gainsay" and not accepted by the Church in the 9th Century !) up until the protestants caused the Western Church to canonize them (RCC in Trent and Orthodox while writing the RCC influenced Long and short catechisms of the 1692 EO council of Jerusalem...)


Quote
Thank you Father for this post.

I looked up who this Nikolai Leskov who wrote that fiction was. He was a friend of Leo Tolstoy who is excommunicated by the ROC. Also from wikipedia :

Quote
Leskov served on the Scholarly Committee of the Ministry of Education from 1874. He was dismissed in 1883 due to his too liberal views. After a religious crisis in the mid-1870s he published several stories which questioned Orthodox Christianity.

So you see...Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If it is convenient for him for Christians to believe the damned will be fished out of Sheol (the resting place for the damned) instead of facing their terrible final judgement, just use an enemy of the Church to write a convenient fable...
How do we know that this vision your friend had is not Satan masquerading as an angel of light? Just because YOU attribute the vision to the Holy Spirit doesn't mean it IS so. So how are we to know outside of your testimony?
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« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2011, 04:10:42 PM »

With regard to the Church of the East and the title "Mother of God," this is taken from chapter 10 of their catechism:

Quote
35)   In what sense can we recognize or acknowledge certain theological terminology used by our beloved sister apostolic churches who will address The Ever Virgin Mary as “The Mother of God”??

The Orthodox position will declare this: The Blessed Mother did not give birth to His Godhead, which is from eternal; but rather she had given birth to His manhood, at the end of time, still it is right to be called “the Mother of God,” why?  Because He who is born of her is at once God and Man.  By way of example: The mother of the President of the United States did not give birth to his presidency, she gave birth to the man; and indeed we call her the mother of the President; and again, the Catholicos Patriarch of the East received his office from The Church, and not from his mother who bore him, and we do call her the mother of the Patriarch.

http://www.acoeyouth.org/Learn/catechism/cat.html

So we see that they allow the title "Mother of God" as long as it is qualified.  I think even Nestorius himself was willing to accept that phrase as long as it was qualified.

In the Bazaar, written later in life, Nestorius says he always allowed for a qualified use of "Theotokos," and, in fact, had now reconciled himself to the title.
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« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2011, 06:32:55 PM »

Jnorm, protestants only appeared to the ACOE very very late- the mountains were innacessible to them. By then the reading cycle was set and it did not contain references to these books being canonical. Don't worry, these books were not accepted in the West for the most part (St. Nicephorus the Patriarch of Constantinople called them "gainsay" and not accepted by the Church in the 9th Century !) up until the protestants caused the Western Church to canonize them (RCC in Trent and Orthodox while writing the RCC influenced Long and short catechisms of the 1692 EO council of Jerusalem...)


Quote
Thank you Father for this post.

I looked up who this Nikolai Leskov who wrote that fiction was. He was a friend of Leo Tolstoy who is excommunicated by the ROC. Also from wikipedia :

Quote
Leskov served on the Scholarly Committee of the Ministry of Education from 1874. He was dismissed in 1883 due to his too liberal views. After a religious crisis in the mid-1870s he published several stories which questioned Orthodox Christianity.

So you see...Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If it is convenient for him for Christians to believe the damned will be fished out of Sheol (the resting place for the damned) instead of facing their terrible final judgement, just use an enemy of the Church to write a convenient fable...
How do we know that this vision your friend had is not Satan masquerading as an angel of light? Just because YOU attribute the vision to the Holy Spirit doesn't mean it IS so. So how are we to know outside of your testimony?

Because everything in the vision is confirmed by the Assyrian Church of the East and it's tradition which is the oldest Christian tradition in existence (being the Church Jesus Christ wrote to in Edessa). Death and Sheol are thrown into the Lake of fire which is what the vision said (Revelation 20:14). There is nothing in the Assyrian Patristic tradition to suggest otherwise. Read Mar Ephrem's "Concerning the Last Judgement"...no tollhouses, purgatory, praying people out of Hell (like that ridiculous story of the pagan roman emperor Trajan being rescued from Hell) or other fables only what my friend saw. We should pray for the dead but like Salpy and Lubeltri said how this works is a mystery. These are some of the oldest and most reliable accounts of what the Last Judgement will be according to the Eastern Orthodox Church itself, they were confirmed in the Vision. Further, there was something Concerning Christ and the Gate of Heaven- this destroys another heresy some propose that Mar Keefa (St.Peter) or the Virgin guard the gate of Heaven, again a fable, the Virgin said Jesus Christ was that Gate or guarding it which is confirmed by scripture :

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
- Matthew 7:13

I'd like to ask people here what bells signify in scripture since there was something concerning this and the Lord Jesus Christ and the Gate of Heaven too. The Elder said the Virgin said to him that her son awaits people to come to paradise I think by the way.
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« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2011, 06:52:04 PM »

Jnorm, protestants only appeared to the ACOE very very late- the mountains were innacessible to them. By then the reading cycle was set and it did not contain references to these books being canonical. Don't worry, these books were not accepted in the West for the most part (St. Nicephorus the Patriarch of Constantinople called them "gainsay" and not accepted by the Church in the 9th Century !) up until the protestants caused the Western Church to canonize them (RCC in Trent and Orthodox while writing the RCC influenced Long and short catechisms of the 1692 EO council of Jerusalem...)


Quote
Thank you Father for this post.

I looked up who this Nikolai Leskov who wrote that fiction was. He was a friend of Leo Tolstoy who is excommunicated by the ROC. Also from wikipedia :

Quote
Leskov served on the Scholarly Committee of the Ministry of Education from 1874. He was dismissed in 1883 due to his too liberal views. After a religious crisis in the mid-1870s he published several stories which questioned Orthodox Christianity.

So you see...Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If it is convenient for him for Christians to believe the damned will be fished out of Sheol (the resting place for the damned) instead of facing their terrible final judgement, just use an enemy of the Church to write a convenient fable...
How do we know that this vision your friend had is not Satan masquerading as an angel of light? Just because YOU attribute the vision to the Holy Spirit doesn't mean it IS so. So how are we to know outside of your testimony?

Because everything in the vision is confirmed by the Assyrian Church of the East and it's tradition which is the oldest Christian tradition in existence (being the Church Jesus Christ wrote to in Edessa).
So you keep saying as though repeating this mantra will make it true. You haven't proven yet, to my knowledge, that the ACOE IS the oldest church in existence today. Even if you have, you haven't proven how the age of your church means she has faithfully preserved the full truth of the Christian faith to this day. Therefore, we have no reason to believe that what your friend says is of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2011, 07:04:53 PM »

Jnorm, protestants only appeared to the ACOE very very late- the mountains were innacessible to them. By then the reading cycle was set and it did not contain references to these books being canonical. Don't worry, these books were not accepted in the West for the most part (St. Nicephorus the Patriarch of Constantinople called them "gainsay" and not accepted by the Church in the 9th Century !) up until the protestants caused the Western Church to canonize them (RCC in Trent and Orthodox while writing the RCC influenced Long and short catechisms of the 1692 EO council of Jerusalem...)


Quote
Thank you Father for this post.

I looked up who this Nikolai Leskov who wrote that fiction was. He was a friend of Leo Tolstoy who is excommunicated by the ROC. Also from wikipedia :

Quote
Leskov served on the Scholarly Committee of the Ministry of Education from 1874. He was dismissed in 1883 due to his too liberal views. After a religious crisis in the mid-1870s he published several stories which questioned Orthodox Christianity.

So you see...Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If it is convenient for him for Christians to believe the damned will be fished out of Sheol (the resting place for the damned) instead of facing their terrible final judgement, just use an enemy of the Church to write a convenient fable...
How do we know that this vision your friend had is not Satan masquerading as an angel of light? Just because YOU attribute the vision to the Holy Spirit doesn't mean it IS so. So how are we to know outside of your testimony?

Because everything in the vision is confirmed by the Assyrian Church of the East and it's tradition which is the oldest Christian tradition in existence (being the Church Jesus Christ wrote to in Edessa).
So you keep saying as though repeating this mantra will make it true. You haven't proven yet, to my knowledge, that the ACOE IS the oldest church in existence today. Even if you have, you haven't proven how the age of your church means she has faithfully preserved the full truth of the Christian faith to this day. Therefore, we have no reason to believe that what your friend says is of the Holy Spirit.


Actually I have proven it : the Liturgy of Mar Addai and Mar Mari is the oldest continuing liturgy, and you can read the Letter of Jesus Christ to Abgar malka as well as Abgar writing to his relative Narses Sovereign of Persia that Mar Keefa was going to Babylon (Seleukia-Ctseiphon) to pay him a visit. Both of these are preserved in the Great Armenian Historian Moses of Chorene's History of  Armenia. Eusebius has preserved the correspondence of the Lord Jesus Christ with King Abgar as well. If somebody says all of this is not true, they will have to explain why something from the Doctrine of Addai history (a certain relic which was used to cleanse Abgar of his leprosy and given by Mar Addai) is still preserved today. Namely this:




The Church (Edtha) is to be distinguished from the building of the church (the Umra). The actual Church started in the garden of Eden- God, Adam, Eve, and Adam and Eve who then had children. VERY important distinction. We are the Church not some building like a basilica or Hagia sophia.
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« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2011, 07:40:19 PM »

Jnorm, protestants only appeared to the ACOE very very late- the mountains were innacessible to them. By then the reading cycle was set and it did not contain references to these books being canonical. Don't worry, these books were not accepted in the West for the most part (St. Nicephorus the Patriarch of Constantinople called them "gainsay" and not accepted by the Church in the 9th Century !) up until the protestants caused the Western Church to canonize them (RCC in Trent and Orthodox while writing the RCC influenced Long and short catechisms of the 1692 EO council of Jerusalem...)


Quote
Thank you Father for this post.

I looked up who this Nikolai Leskov who wrote that fiction was. He was a friend of Leo Tolstoy who is excommunicated by the ROC. Also from wikipedia :

Quote
Leskov served on the Scholarly Committee of the Ministry of Education from 1874. He was dismissed in 1883 due to his too liberal views. After a religious crisis in the mid-1870s he published several stories which questioned Orthodox Christianity.

So you see...Satan masquerades as an angel of light. If it is convenient for him for Christians to believe the damned will be fished out of Sheol (the resting place for the damned) instead of facing their terrible final judgement, just use an enemy of the Church to write a convenient fable...
How do we know that this vision your friend had is not Satan masquerading as an angel of light? Just because YOU attribute the vision to the Holy Spirit doesn't mean it IS so. So how are we to know outside of your testimony?

Because everything in the vision is confirmed by the Assyrian Church of the East and it's tradition which is the oldest Christian tradition in existence (being the Church Jesus Christ wrote to in Edessa).
So you keep saying as though repeating this mantra will make it true. You haven't proven yet, to my knowledge, that the ACOE IS the oldest church in existence today. Even if you have, you haven't proven how the age of your church means she has faithfully preserved the full truth of the Christian faith to this day. Therefore, we have no reason to believe that what your friend says is of the Holy Spirit.


Actually I have proven it :
Actually, Rafa, the proof is in your ability to convince US that what you say is true. Looking at that as your goal, you have failed. You have also failed to prove a connection between the age of a church and its faithfulness to Apostolic doctrine. You can have the oldest church on earth, but if she has deviated from the teachings of the Apostles, her age doesn't mean squat.
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« Reply #79 on: January 03, 2011, 08:14:04 PM »

Is there a copy of the letter Jesus wrote, online?
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« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2011, 08:25:11 PM »

Well Pta, here is an exposition of the Mysteries by Mar Narsai, Harp of the Holy Spirit and who established the School of Nisibis (world's first university):

An Exposition of The Mysteries

He was laid in a manger and wrapped in swaddling clothes, as Man;
and the watchers extolled  Him with their praises, as God.
He offered sacrifices according to the Law,  as Man;
and He received worship from the Persians, as God.
Simeon bore Him  upon his arms, as Man;
and he named Him 'the Mercy' who showth mercy to all,  as God.
He kept the Law completely, as Man;
and He gave His own new Law, as God.

He was baptized in Jordan by John, as Man;
and the heaven was opened in honour of His baptism, as God.
He went in to the marriage-feast of the city of Canna, as Man;
and He changed the water that it became wine, as God.
He fasted in the wilderness forty days, as Man;
and watchers descended to minister unto  Him, as God.
He slept in the boat with His disciples, as Man;
and He rebuked the wind and calmed the sea, as God.

He set out and departed to a desert place, as  Man;
and He multiplied the bread and satisfied thousands, as God.
He ate and drank and walked and was weary, as Man;
and He put devils to flight by the word of His mouth, as God.
He prayed and watched and gave thanks and  worshipped, as Man;
and He forgave debts and pardoned sins, as God.
He asked water of the Samaritan woman, as Man;
and He revealed and declared her secrets, as God.

He sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, as Man;
and He forgave the sinful woman her  sins, as God.
He went up into the mountain of Tabor with His disciples, as Man;
and He revealed His glory in their sight, as God.
He shed tears and  wept over Lazarus, as Man;
and He called him that he came forth by His mighty power, as God.
He rode upon a colt and entered Jerusalem, as Man;
and the  boys applauded Him with their Hosannas, as God.

He drew nigh to the fig-tree and shewed  that He was hungered, as Man;
and His mighty power caused it to wither on a  sudden, as God.
He washed the feet of His twelve, as Man;
and He called  Himself Lord and Master, as God.
He ate the legal passover, as Man;
and He exposed the treachery of Iscariot, as God.
He prayed and sweated at the time  of His passion, as Man;
and He scared and terrified them that took Him, as God.

the  attendants seized Him and bound His hands, as Man;
and He healed the ear that Simon cut off, as God.
He stood in the place of judgement and bore insult, as Man;
and He declared that He is about to come in glory, as God.
He bore  His Cross upon His shoulder, as Man;
and He revealed and announced the  destruction of Zion, as God.
He was hanged upon the wood and endured the  passion, as Man;
and He shook the earth and darkened the sun, as God.

Nails were driven into His body, as Man;
and He opened the graves and quickened the dead, as  God.
He cried out upon the Cross 'My God, My God,' as Man;
and promised Paradise to the thief, as God.
His side was pierced with a spear, as  Man;
and His nod rent the temple veil, as God.
They embalmed His body and He was buried in the earth, as Man;
and He raised up His temple by His mighty  power, as God.

He remained in the tomb three days, as Man;
and the watchers glorified Him with  their praises, as God.
He said that He had received all authority, as Man;
and He promised to be with us for ever, as God.
He commanded Thomas  to feel His side, as Man;
and He gave them the Spirit for an earnest, as God.
He ate and drank after His resurrection, as Man;
and He ascended to the height and sent the Spirit, as God.



and here is the famous Hymn of Mar Babai :

Quote
The Theology of the Church of the East has been stated briefly and clearly in the following “Hymn of Praise (TESHBOKHTA)”  Composed by Mar Babai the Great in the sixth century A.D.,
a noted theologian of the Church

One is Christ the Son of God,
Worshiped by all in two natures;
In His Godhead begotten of the Father,
Without beginning before all time;
In His humanity born of Mary,
In the fullness of time, in a body united;
Neither His Godhead is of the nature of the mother,
Nor His humanity of the nature of the Father;
The natures are preserved in their Qnumas*,
In one person of one Sonship.
And as the Godhead is three substances in one nature,
Likewise the Sonship of the Son is in two natures, one person.
So the Holy Church has taught.
   
   

* Qnuma, is an Aramaic word. The nearest equivalent is the Greek “hypostasis”, in Latin “substantia” and in English “substance”.


Surely this is Orthodox no ?


Here's a copy of the Letter of Jesus Jetavan (also I mispelled the Persian Sovereign, who was Abgar's son, which St.Peter visited as "Narses" when he is called Nerseh , sorry for mistake) :

Quote
ABGAR'S LETTER TO THE SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST.

"Abgar, son of Archam, prince of the land, to Jesus, Saviour and Benefactor of men, who has appeared in the country of Jerusalem, greeting:--

"I have heard of Thee, and of the cures wrought by Thy hands, without remedies, without herbs: for, as it is said, Thou makest the blind to see, the lame to walk, the lepers to be healed; Thou drivest out unclean spirits, Thou curest unhappy beings afflicted with prolonged and inveterate diseases; Thou dost even raise the dead. As I have heard of all these wonders wrought by Thee, I have concluded from them either that Thou art God, come down from heaven to do such great things, or that Thou art the Son of God, working as Thou dost these miracles. Therefore have I written to Thee, praying Thee to condescend to come to me and cure me of the complaints with which I am afflicted. I have heard also that the Jews murmur against Thee and wish to deliver Thee up to torments: I have a city small but pleasant, it would be sufficient for us both."

The messengers, the bearers of this letter, met Jesus at Jerusalem, a fact confirmed by these words of the Gospel: "Some from amongst the heathen came to find Jesus, but those who heard them, not daring to tell Jesus what they had heard, told it to Philip and Andrew, who repeated it all to their Master."

The Saviour did not then accept the invitation given to Him, but He thought fit to honour Abgar with an answer in these words:--

VII.[2] ANSWER TO ABGAR'S LETTER, WHICH THE APOSTLE THOMAS WROTE TO THIS PRINCE BY COMMAND OF THE SAVIOUR.

"Blessed is he who believes in me without having seen me! For it is written of me: ' Those who see me will not believe in me, and those who do not see me will believe and live.'

As to what thou hast written asking me to come to thee, I must accomplish here all that for which I have been sent; and, when I shall have accomplished it all, I shall ascend to Him who sent me; and when I shall go away I will send one of my disciples, who will cure thy diseases, and give life to thee and to all those who are with thee."
Anan, Abgar's courier, brought him this letter, as well as the portrait of the Saviour, a picture which is still to be found at this day in the city of Edessa.



http://www.synaxis.org/cf/volume08/ECF00080.htm
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« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2011, 10:28:38 PM »

Saint King Abgar ("Apkar" in Western Armenian) is really cool.

He's the saint after whom this new church was named:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,32465.0.html


He's also on Armenian money:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abgar_V_of_Edessa


The Assyrian Church is indeed ancient, with its roots going back to the first century and the Liturgy of Addai and Mari is one of the oldest liturgies still in use, if not the oldest still in use.

However, other Apostolic Churches are also ancient and have first century roots.  The ancientness of a Church does not necessarily mean all of its teachings are the unchanged teachings of the Apostles.  St. Thaddeus, for example, after visiting St. Apkar, went to Armenia and started the Church there.  And yet the Armenians and Assyrians have different Christologies.  St. Mark started the Coptic Church in the first century, and the School of Alexandria is the most ancient Christian seminary.  Yet they, like the Armenians, have a different Christology from the Assyrians.  The Church in Rome goes back to the first century, and yet both you and I will disagree with some of their beliefs.

What I am trying to say is that few will argue with you about the ancientness of your Church.  However, that alone does not mean that everything your Church teaches is the unchanged teaching of the Apostles.  I think that is what Peter was saying, and I think he has a point.
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« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2011, 10:56:13 PM »

BUT the difference is the ACOE was isolated from everybody, it was 100% outside the Roman-Byzantine ecclesiastical structure. The RCC wants desperately to absorb the ACOE because it proves the "throne of Peter" business as a heresy.
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« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2011, 11:01:17 PM »

I think they want to absorb everybody.   Smiley
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« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2011, 11:04:29 PM »

I think they want to absorb everybody.   Smiley

The first U-Bodies were ACOE interestingly...
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« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2011, 12:16:57 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.

You are so deeply confused. Theotokos means that Mary gave birth to the Logos who had taken flesh from her as His own. Nothing about us can be likened to that.
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« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2011, 12:18:55 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.


Question....
Does the  Syrian Church of the east still  Believe,Holy Mary is the Christostokos , instead of the Theotokos , or did Mary correct the elder in this ......And Now everyone accepts Her as The Theotokos.......Though

Im still skeptical about talking  Apparitions.....

The subject of the Elder's vision was what happens after you die. There was no second chance (ie: purgatory, tollhouses, and praying people out of Hell are creations of the devil)- you died and either were stored in Sheol to await your judgement for not having been Christian or having been a bad Christian, and then at the final judgement you were sentenced to Hell. I asked the Rabi Qasha whether the word "Alam" (Assyrian word used in Aramaic New Testament) which could supposedly mean a very long time or eternity was proof his vision was wrong and that hell was only for a long time, I cited a famous patristic book. He answered me with something that chilled me: the book which I claimed that said Alam was not eternity was not canonized by the Church precisely for saying that and some other things- Alam means eternity! You spend eternity in Hell.

Okay, I have another question.  Your Elder said he accepts that the Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but she can't be called the "God-bearer"?

Theophoros and Theotokos are different.
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« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2011, 12:22:17 AM »

The ACOE has never been influenced by any Western Churches.

This is a silly statement. The East Syrian tradition began because of the efforts of West Syrian and Hebraic Christians, both of which are "Western churches" in the context of the ACE. Further, there was a West Syrian Bishop at the 410 Council of Seleucia to confirm its autocephaly, for some reason.
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« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2011, 12:24:24 AM »

Look the argument that somebody is the Mother of God because they bore God is wrong or else the Bishop of Antioch who bore God in his heart should have been called the Virgin Mary according to Cyril who made this false analogy.

Quote
You are so deeply confused. Theotokos means that Mary gave birth to the Logos who had taken flesh from her as His own. Nothing about us can be likened to that.

No confusion...there is absolutely no way the Logos can be given birth to. The Humanity it assumed seperately yes, it the Logos no since it is beyond birth, pain, suffering, hunger, neccesity, death, or anything else which we creatures of dust are subject to.

Quote
This is a silly statement. The East Syrian tradition began because of the efforts of West Syrian and Hebraic Christians, both of which are "Western churches" in the context of the ACE. Further, there was a West Syrian Bishop at the 410 Council of Seleucia to confirm its autocephaly, for some reason.

The SOC broke away from the ACOE not the other way round. The fables of the ACOE being a suffragan of a western SOC  and so forth are from the middle ages. The ACOE has always been independent and shall continue to be so until the return of Christ.
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« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2011, 12:38:59 AM »

If the Holy Trinity had a Mother,

Theotokos does not mean that the Holy Trinity was given birth to, but rather just the Logos, and at that with respect to the humanity He united to Himself.

The argument of bearing God in her precious womb falls flat since the third Bishop of Antioch was called God bearer yet is not called "Theotokos",

Theotokos refers to giving birth to God. The only person this could possibly be ascribed to is Mary. Anyone else could only be a Theophoros (the actual word for God-bearer as you are using it) at best.

and further calling the Virgin bearer of God would be an incomplete title since Christ is Perfect man as well as Perfect God and such a title would deny his humanity.

No. Jesus is Christ. Jesus is God. Jesus is a man. As such, Christotokos, Theotokos, and Anthropotokos are all potentially correct, given the right explanation. The problem here, rather, is that your tradition denies Theotokos. Our tradition does not deny Christotokos (absolutely, that is).
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« Reply #90 on: January 04, 2011, 01:01:31 AM »

But when a man is judged at death, this judgment stands. Consider Jesus's recounting of the rich man and Lazarus.

This is only significant if you assume that the judgment at death is for eternal fate, which might not be a reasonable assumption.
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« Reply #91 on: January 04, 2011, 01:05:54 AM »

The Church in the West believes in 2 natures completely seperated and with no mixture just like he taught.

That is provably false.
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« Reply #92 on: January 04, 2011, 01:13:36 AM »

Quote
This is only significant if you assume that the judgment at death is for eternal fate

It is like when the police catch someone for a crime. They know they are guilty, they are just waiting for the Final sentence in jail.


The Church in the West believes in 2 natures completely seperated and with no mixture just like he taught.

That is provably false.

If it is false why is the Oriental Orthodox Church not in communion with the EO which rejects the term "one nature" for Christ as blasphemy ?
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« Reply #93 on: January 04, 2011, 01:20:37 AM »

Look the argument that somebody is the Mother of God because they bore God is wrong or else the Bishop of Antioch who bore God in his heart should have been called the Virgin Mary according to Cyril who made this false analogy.

No, actually, what was and is said is that Mary is the Mother of God because she gave birth to God.

No confusion...there is absolutely no way the Logos can be given birth to.

Yes there is, that is if He takes an instance of humanity as His own.

The Humanity it assumed seperately yes,

You are speaking nonsense. Assumption and separation are contradictory realities. Even Nestorian Christology necessitates inseparability.

it the Logos no since it is beyond birth, pain, suffering, hunger, neccesity, death, or anything else which we creatures of dust are subject to.

According to His eternal divine subsistence given to Him by the Father, yes. According to the humanity that He took from the Holy Virgin as His own, no.

The SOC broke away from the ACOE not the other way round.

This is a whole 'nother argument.

The Seleucia synod of 424 constitutes a declaration of total independence from the rest of the Church, to the point that the Catholicos could only be judged by God. This is not the ancient Collegial belief of the Church. The Church teaches that Catholicoi and Patriarchs can be judged in collective synods. Otherwise their effectively become numerous heads in the Body of Christ. The 424 synod was effectively schismatic in spirit.

Beyond that, we can argue about the nature of the faith, of which I believe you separated from the Nicene Christological faith, which taught that the Lord Jesus was eternally begotten of the Father, of one essence with Him, and became human. This is not reconcilable with Nestorian Christology which teaches that the eternal Logos did not become human.

The fables of the ACOE being a suffragan of a western SOC  and so forth are from the middle ages. The ACOE has always been independent and shall continue to be so until the return of Christ.

I never stated a belief that the East Syrian church was a ever a dependent jurisdiction of Antioch. As far as I can tell, I recognize what you say as to this not being true. However, that is very different from the matter of influence. Saying that the West Syrian church never influenced the East Syrian church just seems ridiculous.
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« Reply #94 on: January 04, 2011, 01:25:08 AM »

Quote
This is only significant if you assume that the judgment at death is for eternal fate

It is like when the police catch someone for a crime. They know they are guilty, they are just waiting for the Final sentence in jail.


The Church in the West believes in 2 natures completely seperated and with no mixture just like he taught.

That is provably false.

If it is false why is the Oriental Orthodox Church not in communion with the EO which rejects the term "one nature" for Christ as blasphemy ?

Because of our disagreement regarding the distinction of the natures.

Their inseparability we agree on. And I can easily verify that. It's in the Chalcedonian Creed.
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« Reply #95 on: January 04, 2011, 01:27:55 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.


Question....
Does the  Syrian Church of the east still  Believe,Holy Mary is the Christostokos , instead of the Theotokos , or did Mary correct the elder in this ......And Now everyone accepts Her as The Theotokos.......Though

Im still skeptical about talking  Apparitions.....

The subject of the Elder's vision was what happens after you die. There was no second chance (ie: purgatory, tollhouses, and praying people out of Hell are creations of the devil)- you died and either were stored in Sheol to await your judgement for not having been Christian or having been a bad Christian, and then at the final judgement you were sentenced to Hell. I asked the Rabi Qasha whether the word "Alam" (Assyrian word used in Aramaic New Testament) which could supposedly mean a very long time or eternity was proof his vision was wrong and that hell was only for a long time, I cited a famous patristic book. He answered me with something that chilled me: the book which I claimed that said Alam was not eternity was not canonized by the Church precisely for saying that and some other things- Alam means eternity! You spend eternity in Hell.

Okay, I have another question.  Your Elder said he accepts that the Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but she can't be called the "God-bearer"?

Theophoros and Theotokos are different.

That wasn't the point.  Yes, I understand that.  The point is that the "Seer" that Rafa is friends with (from now on I'm calling him the Assyrian Seer) says that the one that was in the Virgin's precious womb is truly God.  But he comes to this twisted and idiotic logic that she's not the Birthgiver of Our Lord and God and Savior.  Why is that an idiotic logic?  Because in her womb, He is called God, but the One that came out of her womb is not God!  Ridiculous!
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« Reply #96 on: January 04, 2011, 01:30:58 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.


Question....
Does the  Syrian Church of the east still  Believe,Holy Mary is the Christostokos , instead of the Theotokos , or did Mary correct the elder in this ......And Now everyone accepts Her as The Theotokos.......Though

Im still skeptical about talking  Apparitions.....

The subject of the Elder's vision was what happens after you die. There was no second chance (ie: purgatory, tollhouses, and praying people out of Hell are creations of the devil)- you died and either were stored in Sheol to await your judgement for not having been Christian or having been a bad Christian, and then at the final judgement you were sentenced to Hell. I asked the Rabi Qasha whether the word "Alam" (Assyrian word used in Aramaic New Testament) which could supposedly mean a very long time or eternity was proof his vision was wrong and that hell was only for a long time, I cited a famous patristic book. He answered me with something that chilled me: the book which I claimed that said Alam was not eternity was not canonized by the Church precisely for saying that and some other things- Alam means eternity! You spend eternity in Hell.

Okay, I have another question.  Your Elder said he accepts that the Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but she can't be called the "God-bearer"?

Theophoros and Theotokos are different.

That wasn't the point.  Yes, I understand that.  The point is that the "Seer" that Rafa is friends with (from now on I'm calling him the Assyrian Seer) says that the one that was in the Virgin's precious womb is truly God.  But he comes to this twisted and idiotic logic that she's not the Birthgiver of Our Lord and God and Savior.  Why is that an idiotic logic?  Because in her womb, He is called God, but the One that came out of her womb is not God!  Ridiculous!

For sure.
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« Reply #97 on: January 04, 2011, 02:05:56 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.


Question....
Does the  Syrian Church of the east still  Believe,Holy Mary is the Christostokos , instead of the Theotokos , or did Mary correct the elder in this ......And Now everyone accepts Her as The Theotokos.......Though

Im still skeptical about talking  Apparitions.....

The subject of the Elder's vision was what happens after you die. There was no second chance (ie: purgatory, tollhouses, and praying people out of Hell are creations of the devil)- you died and either were stored in Sheol to await your judgement for not having been Christian or having been a bad Christian, and then at the final judgement you were sentenced to Hell. I asked the Rabi Qasha whether the word "Alam" (Assyrian word used in Aramaic New Testament) which could supposedly mean a very long time or eternity was proof his vision was wrong and that hell was only for a long time, I cited a famous patristic book. He answered me with something that chilled me: the book which I claimed that said Alam was not eternity was not canonized by the Church precisely for saying that and some other things- Alam means eternity! You spend eternity in Hell.

Okay, I have another question.  Your Elder said he accepts that the Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but she can't be called the "God-bearer"?

Theophoros and Theotokos are different.

That wasn't the point.  Yes, I understand that.  The point is that the "Seer" that Rafa is friends with (from now on I'm calling him the Assyrian Seer) says that the one that was in the Virgin's precious womb is truly God.  But he comes to this twisted and idiotic logic that she's not the Birthgiver of Our Lord and God and Savior.  Why is that an idiotic logic?  Because in her womb, He is called God, but the One that came out of her womb is not God!  Ridiculous!


Minas it's not idiotic it only shows how there is truly a difference between a miaphysite world view and that of a strict Diophysite. You cannot give birth to God because he is not a person, he does not have personhood, the limitations of creatures of dust are not upon him. You can talk of something such as birth (or eating, drinking, suffering,etc.) for a human being...but not God! The concept of a suffering dying God, one who hungers and suffers, a God who can be truely tempted like a fake by Satan are not Orthodox. We can certainly observe things within God's Nature, certain aspects of His Being that are understandable: God lives, God is and God is knowable. God loves. God creates. God heals. God speaks. God saves.

I do not think of God as a "person" though or as "three persons", but if I were forced to assign a label in English I would utilize a word like Being - that is the essence of the name of God YHWH in Hebrew.

So we say that it is Orthodox for Christ's humanity to be born, but not God.
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« Reply #98 on: January 04, 2011, 02:08:25 AM »

Well, the important thing is that the Virgin fell asleep and needed a saviour. I also asked the Elder whether he changed his mind concerning "Theotokos". He said NO. He did not. The Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but this does not make her the Mother of the Immortal. If it did you would be a Theotokos since you carry the Holy Spirit.


Question....
Does the  Syrian Church of the east still  Believe,Holy Mary is the Christostokos , instead of the Theotokos , or did Mary correct the elder in this ......And Now everyone accepts Her as The Theotokos.......Though

Im still skeptical about talking  Apparitions.....

The subject of the Elder's vision was what happens after you die. There was no second chance (ie: purgatory, tollhouses, and praying people out of Hell are creations of the devil)- you died and either were stored in Sheol to await your judgement for not having been Christian or having been a bad Christian, and then at the final judgement you were sentenced to Hell. I asked the Rabi Qasha whether the word "Alam" (Assyrian word used in Aramaic New Testament) which could supposedly mean a very long time or eternity was proof his vision was wrong and that hell was only for a long time, I cited a famous patristic book. He answered me with something that chilled me: the book which I claimed that said Alam was not eternity was not canonized by the Church precisely for saying that and some other things- Alam means eternity! You spend eternity in Hell.

Okay, I have another question.  Your Elder said he accepts that the Virgin bore God in her precious womb, but she can't be called the "God-bearer"?

Theophoros and Theotokos are different.

That wasn't the point.  Yes, I understand that.  The point is that the "Seer" that Rafa is friends with (from now on I'm calling him the Assyrian Seer) says that the one that was in the Virgin's precious womb is truly God.  But he comes to this twisted and idiotic logic that she's not the Birthgiver of Our Lord and God and Savior.  Why is that an idiotic logic?  Because in her womb, He is called God, but the One that came out of her womb is not God!  Ridiculous!


Minas it's not idiotic it only shows how there is truly a difference between a miaphysite world view and that of a strict Diophysite. You cannot give birth to God because he is not a person, he does not have personhood, the limitations of creatures of dust are not upon him. You can talk of something such as birth (or eating, drinking, suffering,etc.) for a human being...but not God! The concept of a suffering dying God, one who hungers and suffers, a God who can be truely tempted like a fake by Satan are not Orthodox. We can certainly observe things within God's Nature, certain aspects of His Being that are understandable: God lives, God is and God is knowable. God loves. God creates. God heals. God speaks. God saves.

I do not think of God as a "person" though or as "three persons", but if I were forced to assign a label in English I would utilize a word like Being - that is the essence of the name of God YHWH in Hebrew.

A strict and consistent diophysite worldview would NOT say that what was in her womb was God.  But according to the Assyrian Seer, you can have God in a womb, but you can't give birth to God.  That's idiotic and probably a window to understanding that this vision is demonic.
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« Reply #99 on: January 04, 2011, 02:10:19 AM »

Minas it's not idiotic it only shows how there is truly a difference between a miaphysite world view and that of a strict Diophysite. You cannot give birth to God because he is not a person, he does not have personhood, the limitations of creatures of dust are not upon him. You can talk of something such as birth (or eating, drinking, suffering,etc.) for a human being...but not God! The concept of a suffering dying God, one who hungers and suffers, a God who can be truely tempted like a fake by Satan are not Orthodox. We can certainly observe things within God's Nature, certain aspects of His Being that are understandable: God lives, God is and God is knowable. God loves. God creates. God heals. God speaks. God saves.

I do not think of God as a "person" though or as "three persons", but if I were forced to assign a label in English I would utilize a word like Being - that is the essence of the name of God YHWH in Hebrew.

IMO, this thread was created as a straw man and a vehicle for expressing Rafa's views of the ACOE, presuming that he knows them in the first place.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #100 on: January 04, 2011, 02:11:47 AM »

Minas it's not idiotic it only shows how there is truly a difference between a miaphysite world view and that of a strict Diophysite. You cannot give birth to God because he is not a person, he does not have personhood, the limitations of creatures of dust are not upon him. You can talk of something such as birth (or eating, drinking, suffering,etc.) for a human being...but not God! The concept of a suffering dying God, one who hungers and suffers, a God who can be truely tempted like a fake by Satan are not Orthodox. We can certainly observe things within God's Nature, certain aspects of His Being that are understandable: God lives, God is and God is knowable. God loves. God creates. God heals. God speaks. God saves.

I do not think of God as a "person" though or as "three persons", but if I were forced to assign a label in English I would utilize a word like Being - that is the essence of the name of God YHWH in Hebrew.

IMO, this thread was created as a straw man and a vehicle for expressing Rafa's views of the ACOE, presuming that he knows them in the first place.   Roll Eyes

I'm glad he did, because it shows exactly that the Assyrian Seer is a self-contradictory fellow who does not discern intelligence in his vision.
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« Reply #101 on: January 04, 2011, 02:14:02 AM »

The Virgin gave birth to Christ's humanity. Did you even read what I placed above by Mar Narsai Huh

Here again :

An Exposition of The Mysteries

He was laid in a manger and wrapped in swaddling clothes, as Man;
and the watchers extolled  Him with their praises, as God.
He offered sacrifices according to the Law,  as Man;
and He received worship from the Persians, as God.
Simeon bore Him  upon his arms, as Man;
and he named Him 'the Mercy' who showth mercy to all,  as God.
He kept the Law completely, as Man;
and He gave His own new Law, as God.

He was baptized in Jordan by John, as Man;
and the heaven was opened in honour of His baptism, as God.
He went in to the marriage-feast of the city of Canna, as Man;
and He changed the water that it became wine, as God.
He fasted in the wilderness forty days, as Man;
and watchers descended to minister unto  Him, as God.
He slept in the boat with His disciples, as Man;
and He rebuked the wind and calmed the sea, as God.

He set out and departed to a desert place, as  Man;
and He multiplied the bread and satisfied thousands, as God.
He ate and drank and walked and was weary, as Man;
and He put devils to flight by the word of His mouth, as God.
He prayed and watched and gave thanks and  worshipped, as Man;
and He forgave debts and pardoned sins, as God.
He asked water of the Samaritan woman, as Man;
and He revealed and declared her secrets, as God.

He sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, as Man;
and He forgave the sinful woman her  sins, as God.
He went up into the mountain of Tabor with His disciples, as Man;
and He revealed His glory in their sight, as God.
He shed tears and  wept over Lazarus, as Man;
and He called him that he came forth by His mighty power, as God.
He rode upon a colt and entered Jerusalem, as Man;
and the  boys applauded Him with their Hosannas, as God.

He drew nigh to the fig-tree and shewed  that He was hungered, as Man;
and His mighty power caused it to wither on a  sudden, as God.
He washed the feet of His twelve, as Man;
and He called  Himself Lord and Master, as God.
He ate the legal passover, as Man;
and He exposed the treachery of Iscariot, as God.
He prayed and sweated at the time  of His passion, as Man;
and He scared and terrified them that took Him, as God.

the  attendants seized Him and bound His hands, as Man;
and He healed the ear that Simon cut off, as God.
He stood in the place of judgement and bore insult, as Man;
and He declared that He is about to come in glory, as God.
He bore  His Cross upon His shoulder, as Man;
and He revealed and announced the  destruction of Zion, as God.
He was hanged upon the wood and endured the  passion, as Man;
and He shook the earth and darkened the sun, as God.

Nails were driven into His body, as Man;
and He opened the graves and quickened the dead, as  God.
He cried out upon the Cross 'My God, My God,' as Man;
and promised Paradise to the thief, as God.
His side was pierced with a spear, as  Man;
and His nod rent the temple veil, as God.
They embalmed His body and He was buried in the earth, as Man;
and He raised up His temple by His mighty  power, as God.

He remained in the tomb three days, as Man;
and the watchers glorified Him with  their praises, as God.
He said that He had received all authority, as Man;
and He promised to be with us for ever, as God.
He commanded Thomas  to feel His side, as Man;
and He gave them the Spirit for an earnest, as God.
He ate and drank after His resurrection, as Man;
and He ascended to the height and sent the Spirit, as God.
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« Reply #102 on: January 04, 2011, 02:25:28 AM »

I think  it's important to remind everybody that the vision was primarily about what happens to the deceased. Rabi Qasha DID say that he did not change his mind on the "Theotokos" issue, and that the Humanity of Christ was made by the Holy Spirit which resided in her precious womb, and that bearing God does not make one the "mother of God" or else we would all be Theotokos. And this is of course True.
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« Reply #103 on: January 04, 2011, 02:26:07 AM »

The Virgin gave birth to Christ's humanity.  

Christ received his human nature from the Virgin, but natures are not born persons are.  The Virgin gave birth to the person Jesus, who was God and Man, thus Mary is the Birthgiver of God the Son.  This does not mean or imply he received His divine nature from her.
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« Reply #104 on: January 04, 2011, 02:29:38 AM »

Minas it's not idiotic it only shows how there is truly a difference between a miaphysite world view and that of a strict Diophysite. You cannot give birth to God because he is not a person, he does not have personhood, the limitations of creatures of dust are not upon him. You can talk of something such as birth (or eating, drinking, suffering,etc.) for a human being...but not God! The concept of a suffering dying God, one who hungers and suffers, a God who can be truely tempted like a fake by Satan are not Orthodox. We can certainly observe things within God's Nature, certain aspects of His Being that are understandable: God lives, God is and God is knowable. God loves. God creates. God heals. God speaks. God saves.

I do not think of God as a "person" though or as "three persons", but if I were forced to assign a label in English I would utilize a word like Being - that is the essence of the name of God YHWH in Hebrew.

IMO, this thread was created as a straw man and a vehicle for expressing Rafa's views of the ACOE, presuming that he knows them in the first place.   Roll Eyes

I'm glad he did, because it shows exactly that the Assyrian Seer is a self-contradictory fellow who does not discern intelligence in his vision.

Illustrating the error of following those who teach and preach falsehood via "visions."  That was my point but thank you for clarifying it and I hope I didn't offend anyone in the process.    angel Smiley  angel
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« Reply #105 on: January 04, 2011, 02:30:55 AM »

The Virgin gave birth to Christ's humanity.  

Christ received his human nature from the Virgin, but natures are not born persons are.  The Virgin gave birth to the person Jesus, who was God and Man, thus Mary is the Birthgiver of God the Son.  This does not mean or imply he received His divine nature from her.

The question is whether Divinity receives "birth". It is akin to saying it can suffer, be tempted, it can die, it can eat...in short it is not what somebody of a monotheistic Hebrew culture would say.
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« Reply #106 on: January 04, 2011, 02:35:09 AM »

I think  it's important to remind everybody that the vision was primarily about what happens to the deceased. Rabi Qasha DID say that he did not change his mind on the "Theotokos" issue, and that the Humanity of Christ was made by the Holy Spirit which resided in her precious womb, and that bearing God does not make one the "mother of God" or else we would all be Theotokos. And this is of course True.

Rabi Qasha said God was in her womb.  Enough said.
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« Reply #107 on: January 04, 2011, 02:36:06 AM »

I think  it's important to remind everybody that the vision was primarily about what happens to the deceased. Rabi Qasha DID say that he did not change his mind on the "Theotokos" issue, and that the Humanity of Christ was made by the Holy Spirit which resided in her precious womb, and that bearing God does not make one the "mother of God" or else we would all be Theotokos. And this is of course True.

Rabi Qasha said God was in her womb.  Enough said.


This is never denied by anybody in the ACOE...
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« Reply #108 on: January 04, 2011, 02:39:03 AM »

I think  it's important to remind everybody that the vision was primarily about what happens to the deceased. Rabi Qasha DID say that he did not change his mind on the "Theotokos" issue, and that the Humanity of Christ was made by the Holy Spirit which resided in her precious womb, and that bearing God does not make one the "mother of God" or else we would all be Theotokos. And this is of course True.

Rabi Qasha said God was in her womb.  Enough said.


This is never denied by anybody in the ACOE...

So God can be in a womb, but cannot go through a birth canal?
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« Reply #109 on: January 04, 2011, 03:08:14 AM »

The Virgin gave birth to Christ's humanity. Did you even read what I placed above by Mar Narsai Huh

Here again :

An Exposition of The Mysteries

He was laid in a manger and wrapped in swaddling clothes, as Man;
and the watchers extolled  Him with their praises, as God.
He offered sacrifices according to the Law,  as Man;
and He received worship from the Persians, as God.
Simeon bore Him  upon his arms, as Man;
and he named Him 'the Mercy' who showth mercy to all,  as God.
He kept the Law completely, as Man;
and He gave His own new Law, as God.

He was baptized in Jordan by John, as Man;
and the heaven was opened in honour of His baptism, as God.
He went in to the marriage-feast of the city of Canna, as Man;
and He changed the water that it became wine, as God.
He fasted in the wilderness forty days, as Man;
and watchers descended to minister unto  Him, as God.
He slept in the boat with His disciples, as Man;
and He rebuked the wind and calmed the sea, as God.

He set out and departed to a desert place, as  Man;
and He multiplied the bread and satisfied thousands, as God.
He ate and drank and walked and was weary, as Man;
and He put devils to flight by the word of His mouth, as God.
He prayed and watched and gave thanks and  worshipped, as Man;
and He forgave debts and pardoned sins, as God.
He asked water of the Samaritan woman, as Man;
and He revealed and declared her secrets, as God.

He sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, as Man;
and He forgave the sinful woman her  sins, as God.
He went up into the mountain of Tabor with His disciples, as Man;
and He revealed His glory in their sight, as God.
He shed tears and  wept over Lazarus, as Man;
and He called him that he came forth by His mighty power, as God.
He rode upon a colt and entered Jerusalem, as Man;
and the  boys applauded Him with their Hosannas, as God.

He drew nigh to the fig-tree and shewed  that He was hungered, as Man;
and His mighty power caused it to wither on a  sudden, as God.
He washed the feet of His twelve, as Man;
and He called  Himself Lord and Master, as God.
He ate the legal passover, as Man;
and He exposed the treachery of Iscariot, as God.
He prayed and sweated at the time  of His passion, as Man;
and He scared and terrified them that took Him, as God.

the  attendants seized Him and bound His hands, as Man;
and He healed the ear that Simon cut off, as God.
He stood in the place of judgement and bore insult, as Man;
and He declared that He is about to come in glory, as God.
He bore  His Cross upon His shoulder, as Man;
and He revealed and announced the  destruction of Zion, as God.
He was hanged upon the wood and endured the  passion, as Man;
and He shook the earth and darkened the sun, as God.

Nails were driven into His body, as Man;
and He opened the graves and quickened the dead, as  God.
He cried out upon the Cross 'My God, My God,' as Man;
and promised Paradise to the thief, as God.
His side was pierced with a spear, as  Man;
and His nod rent the temple veil, as God.
They embalmed His body and He was buried in the earth, as Man;
and He raised up His temple by His mighty  power, as God.

He remained in the tomb three days, as Man;
and the watchers glorified Him with  their praises, as God.
He said that He had received all authority, as Man;
and He promised to be with us for ever, as God.
He commanded Thomas  to feel His side, as Man;
and He gave them the Spirit for an earnest, as God.
He ate and drank after His resurrection, as Man;
and He ascended to the height and sent the Spirit, as God.


The EO's have a hymn with the same sort of language, which they use for the feast of the Raising of Lazarus:

Quote
As mortal man You asked where Lazarus was buried; as Maker, You raised him from the dead by Your royal command. Hell was afraid of him when he cried out to You: “Praise the Lord and exalt Him above all for ever.”

As a mortal, You search for Lazarus; as God, You raise him by Your word, though he was four days dead. Therefore we sing Your praises forever.

As man You pray to the Father, as God You raise Lazarus. Therefore, O Christ, we sing Your praises forever.

You walk and weep and speak, my Saviour, showing the action of Your human nature; and, revealing Your divine nature, You raise Lazarus.

In ways beyond words, my Master and Saviour, You have brought about my salvation by the free will exercised in each of Your two natures.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28594.msg451026.html#msg451026

And yet the EO's are able to say that St. Mary is the Mother of God, and that she gave birth to God Incarnate, not just a human nature (as observed by Deacon Lance above, a woman doesn't give birth to a nature, but to a person.)

The EO's also are able to say that One of the Trinity suffered in the flesh.  

You need to be able to say that in order to really believe in the Incarnation.  Perhaps you need to discuss this more with your fellow Dyophysites, the EO's, and sort this out with them.  Maybe they can explain this better than I can.  Maybe they can explain to you how you can believe that a woman gave birth to God the Word without it meaning that the entire Trinity was born, or whatever you are afraid this will mean.  

I think I and the other OO's here are talking past you.  Maybe the EO's can try to explain this better since their language and yours is so similar.  Regardless, you just have to realize that you can believe that God was born, without it meaning that the entire Trinity was born.
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« Reply #110 on: January 04, 2011, 03:37:55 AM »

I think  it's important to remind everybody that the vision was primarily about what happens to the deceased. Rabi Qasha DID say that he did not change his mind on the "Theotokos" issue, and that the Humanity of Christ was made by the Holy Spirit which resided in her precious womb, and that bearing God does not make one the "mother of God" or else we would all be Theotokos. And this is of course True.
I guess my question to you, then, is quite simple. Why should I trust your friend when I'm not convinced I should even trust you, the only point of contact I have with this friend of yours?
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« Reply #111 on: January 04, 2011, 04:00:26 AM »

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you just have to realize that you can believe that God was born, without it meaning that the entire Trinity was born.

Erm...nope. God IS the Holy Trinity. You cannot seperate the Logos from the Father or the Holy Spirit in that way you describe which slices off the Logos completely from the Trinity. God did not change into literal Flesh since he cannot change (Malachi 3:6), he dwelt amongst us by the humanity he partook from the Virgin. I suggest you read this section of the book of Marganitha by Metropolitan of N’siwin and Armenia Mar Odisho to understand the differences between ACOE and other denominations on this and several other issues:

Quote
CHAPTER IV

On the Different Sects

 When the light of the manifestation of Christ shone forth it scattered the darkness of error from the face of the world by the intermediary of these true preachers; idols became naught, pictures and molten images passed away, and the earth was cleansed from the abomination of sacrifices and unclean rites, and the inhabitants of the world learned goodness, holiness, humility, and gentleness, and the earth was full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. This filled Satan with envy and rage, and he forthwith proceeded to act towards us as he had acted towards Adam; so that after the beatified Apostles, and their disciples and their immediate successors, had slept he provoked Christians rose up against each other, and divisions and controversies sprung up among them, and heresies without number increased in the Church of CHRIST, until they went so far as to compass each other’s destruction, and regarded each other as blasphemers deserving of death. How many false doctrines were rife, and how many impieties and abuses were perpetrated in those days, we learn from the histories of Mar Eusebius. On account of these things, the Ecumenical Council of the 318 was convened, by order of the good and CHRIST-loving and holy Emperor Constantine, .in the year of Alexander 636, and by the power of the SPIRIT, and by proofs adduced from the Holy Scriptures, they decreed, interpreted, enlightened, disclosed, manifested, and confirmed, the orthodox faith; and by strong argument and with words of sound doctrine, they condemned all the heresiarchs, excommunicated and cut them off from the body of CHRIST, as being diseased members not susceptible of cure. And thus the Catholic Church was purified from every stain of vain worship and false doctrine, and all the world, from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, was of one mind and of one Church. About one hundred years after this a dispute arose between Cyril Patriarch of Alexandria, and Mar Nestorius Patriarch of Byzantium, on the subject of incarnation. In the confession of the Trinity all Christians agree, for all accept the Nicene Creed, which creed confesses that the Trinity is co-equal in essence, Lordship, power and will; and all confess of CHRIST that He is perfect GOD and perfect Man, being fully persuaded thereof by the declarations of the Gospels, of Saint Paul, and of the 318 Fathers. The dispute which now arose respected the manner of the Union, and the words used to express it. Cyril maintained that we ought to call the Virgin “Mother of God “, and wrote twelve treatise excommunicating all who should, in any way, draw a distinction between the divinity and the humanity of CHRIST after the union. Nestorius replied to these Sentences, and showed that they were erroneous, and with respect to the appellation “MOTHER OF GOD “, he argued that it did not exist either in the writings of the Prophets or the Apostles. The Prophets prophesied of CHRIST[39] to come, and the Apostles preached of that same CHRIST,[40] predicted by the Prophets as coming into the world, that this was He Who was born of Mary and they showed that He is both God and man. Now, were we to use the expression “Mother of Man” only, we should be like Paul of Samosata, and Phontinus of Galatia, who said of our Lord that He was but a mere man like one of the prophets and on this account they were excom­municated; so if we use the bare expression “Mother of God” we become like’ Simon and Menander, who say that God did not take a body from Mary; but that His dispensation (life and actions) were hallucinatory and not real, and on that account they also were excommunicated. But we call the Virgin “Mother of CHRIST “, the name used by Prophets and Apostles, and which denotes the union generally. Cyril, in the treatise which he drew up, and in which he excommunicated all who shall distinguish between the divinity and humanity of CHRIST, virtually excommunicated the Holy Scriptures, since the Apostles and Prophets do distinguish between the natures of the Person respecting Whom the dispute is, and from these the holy Fathers learnt to confess of CHRIST, that He is perfect GOD and perfect Man, the Likeness of GOD and the likeness of a servant,[41] the Son of David and the Son of the Highest,[42]flesh and Word.[43]

 From this time commenced the division of the Church; some followed Nestorius, whilst others went astray after Cyril, both parties mutually anathematizing each other; thereby causing divisions, slaughter, exile, imprisonment, and persecution of the Fathers, more than ever before, as is fully recorded in the histories of Irenaeus, Bishop of Tyre. After this, tumult and discord went on increasing until the zealous and CHRIST-loving Marcian undertook to convene the great Council of the six hundred and thirty two in the town of Chalcedon, and commanded that both parties should be examined and judged, and that whosoever did not follow the truth and faith as declared by Ecumenical Councils should be expelled from the Church, in order that the Church might be in one accord in all matters of faith. This Council confirmed the confession, that there are two natures in CHRIST each distinct in its attributes, and also two wills, and anathematized all who should speak of mixture, which destroys the two natures. But because in Greek there is no distinction between Qnuma (hypostasis) and person, they confessed but one Qnuma in CHRIST. And when the party of Cyril was not satisfied with the expression “two Natures “, and the party of Nestorius with the expression “one Qnuma” an imperial edict was issued declaring all who did not consent to this doctrine degraded from their orders. Some were made to submit through compulsion; but the remainder maintained their own opinions.

Christianity thus became divided into three confessions; the first confessing One Nature and One Qnuma in CHRIST, which is held by the Copts, Egyptians, and Abyssinians, after the tradition of Cyril their Patriarch; and this is called the Jacobite sect, from a certain Suryaya doctor called Jacob who laboured zealously to spread the doctrines of Cyril among the Suryaye and the Armenians.

 The Second sect are those who confess the doctrine of two Natures and one Qnuma in CHRIST, and these are called “Malkaye” (Royalists) because it was imposed forcibly by the king. This is the doctrine which is received by the Romans called Franks, and by the Constantinopolitans who are Greeks and by all the northern peoples such as the Russians, Alani, Circassians, Assai, Georgians and their neighbours. But the Franks differ from the rest of these in maintaining that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, and in their use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist. These two sects also accepted the appelation “Mother of God”; but the Jacobites have added to the canon; “Holy God”, etc., “who was crucified for us.”

 The Third confession which professes in Christ two Natures, two Qnume, one will one sonship, one authority; is called Nestorian. As to the Easterners, however, because they would not change their true faith, but kept it as they received it from the Apostles, they were unjustly styled “Nestorians”, since Nestorius was not their Patriarch, neither did they understand his language; but when they heard that he taught the doctrine of the two Natures and two Qnume, one will, one Son of God, one CHRIST, and that he confessed the orthodox faith, they bore witness to him, because they themselves held the same faith. Nestorius, then, followed them, and not they him, and that more especially in the matter of the appel­ation “Mother of CHRIST”. Therefore when called upon to excommunicate him, they refused, maintain­ing that their excommunication of Nestorius would be equivalent to their excommunication of the Sacred Scriptures and the holy Apostles, from which they received what they professed, and for which we are censured together with Nestorius, as shall appear in the following chapters.

 

Note:      Qnuma in Greek is called hypostasis, namely, that which underlies the essence, by which the nature is known. And Parsoopa: the Greeks call prosopon: We Easterns, there­fore, profess that M’shikha (Messiah) Our Lord is in two Natures in one person. But the question of the Godhead and humanity is brought into discussion in order so as to distin­guish the natural properties of each Nature, then of necessity we are led to the discussion of Qnuma (the essence or under­lying substance) by which the Nature is distinguished. These facts, therefore, lead us to the indisputable evidence of the existence of two Qnume which are the underlying properties of these (two) Natures, in one person of the Son of God.

 

 For a detailed definition of the “Qnuma”, see the Chapter “On The Distinction Of Nature From Qnuma, Etc.”, by Rabban Yokhanan Bar-Zubi.
http://nestorian.org/book_of_marganitha_part_iii.html#part3chap4

Quote
Why should I trust your friend when I'm not convinced I should even trust you, the only point of contact I have with this friend of yours?

Good question. Pray on it is my best advice.
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« Reply #112 on: January 04, 2011, 04:37:58 AM »

I think  it's important to remind everybody that the vision was primarily about what happens to the deceased. Rabi Qasha DID say that he did not change his mind on the "Theotokos" issue, and that the Humanity of Christ was made by the Holy Spirit which resided in her precious womb, and that bearing God does not make one the "mother of God" or else we would all be Theotokos. And this is of course True.

Rabi Qasha said God was in her womb.  Enough said.


This is never denied by anybody in the ACOE...

So God can be in a womb, but cannot go through a birth canal?
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« Reply #113 on: January 04, 2011, 04:21:02 PM »

I think  it's important to remind everybody that the vision was primarily about what happens to the deceased. Rabi Qasha DID say that he did not change his mind on the "Theotokos" issue, and that the Humanity of Christ was made by the Holy Spirit which resided in her precious womb, and that bearing God does not make one the "mother of God" or else we would all be Theotokos. And this is of course True.

Rabi Qasha said God was in her womb.  Enough said.


This is never denied by anybody in the ACOE...

So God can be in a womb, but cannot go through a birth canal?


Minas, contemplate a little what you just said to see why it is wrong...
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« Reply #114 on: January 04, 2011, 05:24:03 PM »

I think  it's important to remind everybody that the vision was primarily about what happens to the deceased. Rabi Qasha DID say that he did not change his mind on the "Theotokos" issue, and that the Humanity of Christ was made by the Holy Spirit which resided in her precious womb, and that bearing God does not make one the "mother of God" or else we would all be Theotokos. And this is of course True.

Rabi Qasha said God was in her womb.  Enough said.


This is never denied by anybody in the ACOE...

So God can be in a womb, but cannot go through a birth canal?


Minas, contemplate a little what you just said to see why it is wrong...

Which part?
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« Reply #115 on: January 04, 2011, 06:44:21 PM »

I think  it's important to remind everybody that the vision was primarily about what happens to the deceased. Rabi Qasha DID say that he did not change his mind on the "Theotokos" issue, and that the Humanity of Christ was made by the Holy Spirit which resided in her precious womb, and that bearing God does not make one the "mother of God" or else we would all be Theotokos. And this is of course True.

Rabi Qasha said God was in her womb.  Enough said.


This is never denied by anybody in the ACOE...

So God can be in a womb, but cannot go through a birth canal?


Minas, contemplate a little what you just said to see why it is wrong...

Which part?

The part that the Logos (thus the Holy Trinity) must pass through a birth canal like a human (or eat, drink, die, suffer,etc.) just because God crafted a human temple for his Divinity from the Virgin's humanity. Think about what you are saying with your statement.

The humanity did this (pass through a birth canal) and die on the Cross, not the Divinity.
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« Reply #116 on: January 04, 2011, 06:59:45 PM »

I think  it's important to remind everybody that the vision was primarily about what happens to the deceased. Rabi Qasha DID say that he did not change his mind on the "Theotokos" issue, and that the Humanity of Christ was made by the Holy Spirit which resided in her precious womb, and that bearing God does not make one the "mother of God" or else we would all be Theotokos. And this is of course True.

Rabi Qasha said God was in her womb.  Enough said.


This is never denied by anybody in the ACOE...

So God can be in a womb, but cannot go through a birth canal?


Minas, contemplate a little what you just said to see why it is wrong...

Which part?

The part that the Logos (thus the Holy Trinity) must pass through a birth canal like a human (or eat, drink, die, suffer,etc.) just because God crafted a human temple for his Divinity from the Virgin's humanity. Think about what you are saying with your statement.

The humanity did this (pass through a birth canal) and die on the Cross, not the Divinity.

Kinda like God can't be in a womb like a human?
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« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2011, 07:15:05 PM »

I think  it's important to remind everybody that the vision was primarily about what happens to the deceased. Rabi Qasha DID say that he did not change his mind on the "Theotokos" issue, and that the Humanity of Christ was made by the Holy Spirit which resided in her precious womb, and that bearing God does not make one the "mother of God" or else we would all be Theotokos. And this is of course True.

Rabi Qasha said God was in her womb.  Enough said.


This is never denied by anybody in the ACOE...

So God can be in a womb, but cannot go through a birth canal?


Minas, contemplate a little what you just said to see why it is wrong...

Which part?

The part that the Logos (thus the Holy Trinity) must pass through a birth canal like a human (or eat, drink, die, suffer,etc.) just because God crafted a human temple for his Divinity from the Virgin's humanity. Think about what you are saying with your statement.

The humanity did this (pass through a birth canal) and die on the Cross, not the Divinity.

Kinda like God can't be in a womb like a human?

God is omnipresent. A human not.

The moment God decides to change into a "person" and pass through a birth canal or die on the Cross is the moment the universe stops.
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« Reply #118 on: January 04, 2011, 08:15:18 PM »

I think  it's important to remind everybody that the vision was primarily about what happens to the deceased. Rabi Qasha DID say that he did not change his mind on the "Theotokos" issue, and that the Humanity of Christ was made by the Holy Spirit which resided in her precious womb, and that bearing God does not make one the "mother of God" or else we would all be Theotokos. And this is of course True.

Rabi Qasha said God was in her womb.  Enough said.


This is never denied by anybody in the ACOE...

So God can be in a womb, but cannot go through a birth canal?


Minas, contemplate a little what you just said to see why it is wrong...

Which part?

The part that the Logos (thus the Holy Trinity) must pass through a birth canal like a human (or eat, drink, die, suffer,etc.) just because God crafted a human temple for his Divinity from the Virgin's humanity. Think about what you are saying with your statement.

The humanity did this (pass through a birth canal) and die on the Cross, not the Divinity.

Kinda like God can't be in a womb like a human?

God is omnipresent. A human not.

The moment God decides to change into a "person" and pass through a birth canal or die on the Cross is the moment the universe stops.

Pointless to discuss anything with you when you're simply playing games with me.
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« Reply #119 on: January 13, 2011, 05:49:23 AM »

Update from my friend!

First he thought it was "insane" that people find it a worthy motive to question him on this because of the "Theotokos" (Khasli) issue but give evolution a dangerous heresy a pass.

Second, he said the colours of the Virgin were selected in his opinion the way he knows her in order so he wouldn't be mislead. No symbolism probably.

Third, he was exceedingly happy that the ACOE did not canonize books like 2 maccabbees and was dissapointed that false doctrines such as praying people out of hell and purgatory evolved to such heights based on these books. There's a good reason the Assyrian Church of the East does not use these books he reiterated...

Fourth, I am asking some of your questions Minas Smiley


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« Reply #120 on: January 13, 2011, 05:49:24 AM »

Minas, your Church agreed with my Elder and the ACOE...it just removed the prayers for people in Hell saying they were unscriptural and unorthodox (ie: falsehoods) !!!

See the post above by Father Ambrose.

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« Reply #121 on: January 15, 2011, 01:38:21 AM »

The Elder has said the Lord Jesus is reaching out to those with misplaced zeal in other religions just like he did to Saint Paul, so they won't be condemned.
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« Reply #122 on: January 15, 2011, 03:15:48 PM »

The Elder I am friends with since a long time has wished to confirm what the Assyrian Church of the East teaches concerning the afterlife. He received an answer. The Elder met the Holy Virgin dressed in White and Blue,

In my humble opinion this was not Mary the Mother of God but it was the woman who pops up all over the world appearing to the Roman Catholics.  There are, I have read, 300 reported apparitions of this women in the last century!!   She always wears BLUE and WHITE.

You will note at once that this is not how the Most Blessed Mother of our Saviour is shown in Orthodox icons.   The blue and white woman is well known in Roman Catholicism.  The colours are cold and and used to emphasize her virginity and not her motherhood.

Flee the woman in blue and white.

In the early days after the apparitions at Lourdes, St. Bernadette always insisted that she'd never said it was the Holy Virgin. She only took to using that terminology later out of sheer exhaustion at having to make innumerable explanations and corrections. But according to her official testimony (which is reflected in the inscription on the statue at the grotto), the apparition said of herself (in Pyrenean dialect) that she was the Immaculate Conception.
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« Reply #123 on: July 27, 2011, 09:54:50 PM »

I am not sure if I can post in this section, if not so please forgive me.

TWO more miracles have occured with my friend! I will not say anything else because during prayers for me my friend delivered the message "Physician heal thyself" and so I don't want lengthy debates when I need prayer and fasting myself.
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