OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 24, 2014, 06:44:01 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Is the OCA semi-canonical?  (Read 2937 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
erracht
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 313


OC.net


« on: April 18, 2004, 10:55:01 AM »

I remember seeing an e-list of canonical Orthodox churches and it listing one as "semi-canonical". I think it may have been the Orthodox Church in America. Or am I wrong? Is this a canonical church? How exactly was it founded and which older jurisdiction authorized/recognized its autocephalousness?
Logged

NULL
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2004, 11:56:32 AM »

If you mean do they follows the canons?  They are on the new calendar and practice ecumenism......both of which are uncanonical.
Logged
lellimore
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 155


OC.net


« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2004, 12:11:08 PM »

I've never really gotten why all the fuss over the calendar.  It seems to me to be a practical issue, rather than a dogmatic one.  If some churches find it useful, what's the problem?
Logged
David
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of the South)
Posts: 1,952


Retired GM


WWW
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2004, 12:20:59 PM »

I remember seeing an e-list of canonical Orthodox churches and it listing one as "semi-canonical". I think it may have been the Orthodox Church in America. Or am I wrong? Is this a canonical church? How exactly was it founded and which older jurisdiction authorized/recognized its autocephalousness?

Well, depending on who wrote the e-list it could have meant several things.  All of the Orthodox world that is in communion with the patriarchates considers the OCA a canonical church in that they are fully Orthodox.  The Russian Orthodox Church granted the OCA Autocephaly in 1970.  The OCA has been operating as an autocephalous Church prior to this as it was cut off from the Russian church in 1917.  Here is an informative series of questions and answers on this process.  

That said, there are several extremist groups out there that consider none of the churches to be canonical except for themselves and sometimes other like minded extremist groups.  They refer to the rest of the church as "World Orthodoxy" and see themselves as the last carriers of true Orthodoxy.  They would say that the OCA is not canonical, along with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, The Ecumenical Patriarch, and nearly everyone else in the World aside from one or two bishops and a monastery somewhere.  

To sum up, while many members of the Orthodox world(including Constantinople, Greece, etc) do not recognize the OCA as autocephalous(they view it still as a dependant to the Russian Church), they fully accept the OCA's Orthodoxy.
Logged

"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."
-Yazid Ibrahim
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,238


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2004, 02:50:01 PM »

The only time I ever saw an EO church listed as "semi-canonical" was on a list that said that "canonical churches" were those in full communion with the EP.  Hence, ROCOR was listed as "semi-canonical" because they were not in full communion with the EP, but supposedly were in full communion with the Serbs and the Greek Patriarchate in Jerusalem.  Every list of fully canonical EO churches I've seen has included the OCA, whether or not the list in question regards them as autocephalous in addition to "canonical".
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2004, 02:50:56 PM »

The Calendar itself is not an issue. The way it was implemented is, and the way it destroys the typikon is.  However, if the world's Orthodox Church together in council decided to change the calendar, that would be canonical.

anastasios
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2004, 03:07:15 PM »

As a clarification to the above I believe the OCA is Orthodox and has grace filled mysteries as I am a member of GOA....but even being in the midst of modernism I have no qualms at pointing out it is WRONG.  Somebody has to notice the patriarch's new vestments...
Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2004, 04:02:50 PM »

As a clarification to the above I believe the OCA is Orthodox and has grace filled mysteries as I am a member of GOA....but even being in the midst of modernism I have no qualms at pointing out it is WRONG.  Somebody has to notice the patriarch's new vestments...

Somebody has to pay for them too!

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2004, 04:53:16 PM »

Quote
Somebody has to pay for them too!

And vestments of any sort are NOT cheap!
Logged
countrymouse
cyberklutz
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 115

OC.net


« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2004, 04:56:40 PM »

The Patriarch's new vestments?  Since I'm new and clueless, would somebody please translate?
Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2004, 05:06:16 PM »

I was just "shifting" the old tale of the emperor's new clothes to the Patriach's new vestments.
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2004, 06:06:38 PM »

The only time I ever saw an EO church listed as "semi-canonical" was on a list that said that "canonical churches" were those in full communion with the EP.  Hence, ROCOR was listed as "semi-canonical" because they were not in full communion with the EP, but supposedly were in full communion with the Serbs and the Greek Patriarchate in Jerusalem.  Every list of fully canonical EO churches I've seen has included the OCA, whether or not the list in question regards them as autocephalous in addition to "canonical".  

Probably Al Green's website (on our portal page I think). He might better have used "partial communion" rather than "semi-canonical" for ROCOR. I have never seen the OCA listed as semi-canonical anywhere.

Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2004, 07:03:02 PM »

If you mean do they follows the canons?  They are on the new calendar and practice ecumenism......both of which are uncanonical.
Nektarios,

XA!

Notwithstanding the follow-up to this post, the GOA follows the New Calendar as does the EP (after all the EP was the first in the Orthodox world to use it) and how does the OCA "practice ecumenism" any differently than the GOA/EP?

Tony
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2004, 07:14:04 PM »

+æ++++++-Ä-é +æ+++¡-â-ä++!

Quote
Notwithstanding the follow-up to this post, the GOA follows the New Calendar as does the EP (after all the EP was the first in the Orthodox world to use it) and how does the OCA "practice ecumenism" any differently than the GOA/EP?

As far as I know the EP tends to be worse in teh ecumenical movement than the OCA.  But I have no qualms to point out that I think such activity is un-Orthodox.  One of the great things about Orthodoxy is that you do no have to justify or argee with your bishops 100% of the time since as individuals that are not infalliable.
Logged
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2004, 12:41:09 AM »

+æ++++++-Ä-é +æ+++¡-â-ä++!As far as I know the EP tends to be worse in teh ecumenical movement than the OCA.  But I have no qualms to point out that I think such activity is un-Orthodox.  One of the great things about Orthodoxy is that you do no have to justify or argee with your bishops 100% of the time since as individuals that are not infalliable.  

Nektarios,

XA!

Well humans are humans indeed.  But, the calendar change does not and did not seem to depend on any individual bishops.  And the ecumenical movement takes place at a higher level as well.  So, neither of these examples seem to have anything to do with bishops as individuals but rather with bishops acting as Church, in synod and synod-like fashion.

Tony
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2004, 01:33:33 AM »

Truly He is Risen!

Synod-like fashion?  The vast majority of Orthrodox Christians are on the Church calendar, not Meletios' calendar.  And in places where it was implemented in the 1920s such as Greece and Romania dissent led to awful persecuation (FWIW bishops ordering violence to be carried out is agaisnt the canons) that lead to the martyrdom of many pious souls.  Even still there was resistance to the changes occuring within the Church in this time period at the episcopal level in Russia (even though the calendar wasn't the issue precisely there).  But even a majority of (Orthrodox) bishops acting in certain manor doesn't make their action canonical - Otherwise Saint Mark of Ephesos or Saint Maximos the confessor would have been wrong.
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,368



« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2004, 07:49:30 AM »

I have yet to see any evidence that the canons give a basis for choosing between any of the proposed calendars. "Canonical" seems to be, unfortunately, a club to beat over the head of anyone who dares to suggest that some practice that has arisen during the history of the Eastern churches ought to be forsaken or changed. Delving into the actual canons seems often enough to fail to justify traditionalist assertions, and from time to time refutes them.

It's quite striking that the English were able to resolve their calendar issue with a simple council.  The greatest saints of the age gave up their old practices and went home. Why do the Eastern churches have such a problem with this?

A lot of the argument I hear justifying Eastern traditions echoes the arguments given to me by Orthodox Jews concerning the Mosaic rules and their continued observance. Or worse-- they try to claim that there are prudential arguments that dictate the observance of those practices and no others.

It takes little research to see that the situation of the OCA is going to be irregular. Nearly everything about the Russian churches is distorted by the history of communist Russia. And yet when push comes to canonical shove, the Russians were here first. It hardly seems reasonable-- or canonical-- that the GReek church gets a veto over everything the Russian churches do here. And meanwhile the Antiochians continue to pick up converts, and many of those converts bring Russian practices with them because Russian chant is congenial to the ex-Anglican tongue.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2004, 07:50:03 AM by Keble » Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2004, 09:07:11 AM »

Wow!
This is twice in the past year that I've agreed with a Keble post in all points. I must be getting soft  Roll Eyes

Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
TonyS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 705


« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2004, 12:12:03 PM »

Dear Nektarios,

I am aware of the oftentimes sad history, I've been in more than one Church history class.  I don't think that the new calendar represents any of the doctrinal matters that were fought against by the personages you mention.

Actually as for "ut even a majority of (Orthrodox) bishops acting in certain manor doesn't make their action canonical" is right on target.  The historical precedent is merely to change the canons.  

ISTM that the calendar issue is more of a disciplinar/practical matter than a dogmatic one.  

I guess what I don't understand is how people who have such strong feelings as you seem to about this issue stay in a church such as the GOA.  

TonyS
Logged

Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2004, 08:00:49 PM »

Keble,

The situation in America is uncanonical and the Russian chaos fed into that.  If things turned out differently and there was no revolution, there would have been an intersting power struggle between the MP and the EP....


Tony,

The moderate Old Calendarists present many good writtings as to why the calendar change was uncanonical.  

As for remaining in the GOA that about the only Church I can regularly attend because of my situation in life and since to the moderate traditionalist (which I tend to lean towards) the GOA is gracefilled and Orthodox I can attend in good conscience.  
Logged
amnesiac99
Always Hopeful, Yet Discontent
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 93

Create in me a clean heart, O God


WWW
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2004, 02:01:28 AM »

Quote
The moderate Old Calendarists present many good writtings as to why the calendar change was uncanonical.

The way the changes were implemented was, indeed, suspicious and highly questionable, but for something to be uncanonical, it has to violate a canon of the Church. If you can point to a canon in which a.) a calendar was established or b.) a process was determined for changing the calendar then I will agree with your point. The fact remains, however, that no calendar was ever established by any council, so to refer to a canonical calendar is to refer to that which does not exist nor ever has.

Is it fair to say that the way the changes were implemented harmed the Church more than it helped it or the ecumenical movement? Yes, I believe it is. But is it fair to call an autocephalous church that chooses to use the New Calendar uncanonical for doing so? No, it is not -- in my judgment.
Logged

Through the prayers of our Holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy upon and save us. Amen!
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.103 seconds with 49 queries.