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Author Topic: Kinks in the Chain:Weak Links in the Succession of Supreme Pontiffs  (Read 7722 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: January 09, 2011, 01:07:42 AM »

If he doesn't claim to replace God, then why did a top RCC catechist once go to me and say that only God's opinion was above the pope's, and also how do you explain the blasphemous title of "Vicar of Christ" ? Latin Vicarius means "instead of" therefore your pope is instead of Christ on Earth which is a blasphemy since Christ is alive and presiding as our High Priest in heaven.
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« Reply #91 on: January 09, 2011, 01:27:09 AM »

There are about 1,437 passages in St. Ignatius that go something like this...

"For, since you are subject to the bishop as to Jesus Christ, you appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order, by believing in His death, you may escape from death. It is therefore necessary that, as you indeed do, so without the bishop you should do nothing, but should also be subject to the presbytery, as to the apostle of Jesus Christ, who is our hope, in whom, if we live, we shall [at last] be found." - Epistle to the Trallians, 2
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 01:27:27 AM by Asteriktos » Logged

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« Reply #92 on: January 09, 2011, 01:57:10 AM »

You said "there are not two heads" and that the office is merely episcopal.
I have showed you clearly that you are wrong, as Vatican I recognizes not only Christ as head, but also that the Bishop of Rome as vicar of the "first head" is a second "head of the whole church."  His office is defined not only as episcopal but as an "immediate...supreme shepherd."  It is both defined as episcopal and as supra-episcopal.  
Shepherd of one type or another is still a shepherd of a flock.
So, say, a German shepherd of one type or another

is still a shepherd of a flock.

A priest is the elder of a church, but replaced God?
If he arrogates to himself the power to transfer other priests to and from any parish at will, and dictate to any and all parishioners what is true, subject to no one's judgement nor question-yeah, pretty much.

A bishop is the head of a local church, but replaced God?
If he arrogates to himself the power to depose bishops and create and abolish dioceses wherever and whenever at will, and script the bishops teaching, subject to no one's judgement nor question-yeah, pretty much.

What about higher administrative bishops... Metropolitans? Patriarchs? ...the Pope?
You have already gotten the answer to the latter.

Jurisdiction size doesn't equate replacement of God.

When it claims universal jurisdiction, not only this world, but beyond (who holds the key to the "treasury of merits"?), subject to no oversight, yeah, pretty much it does for all practical purposes.

This particular argument is flawed and weak,
This particular defense of what can be plainly read in Pastor Aeternus is flawed and weak.

relying on distaste for the position as it's root. Unfortunately, distaste isn't a proof of falsehood.

Sorry, don't like the taste of your kool-aid. No sale.

So while you are busy telling us how we're all equal in the dictatorship of the proletariat, I'm paying more attention to the fact that Comrade Stalin has a tad more say about what goes on in the workers' paradise.

You have been shown here to be unambiguously wrong in your view of the papacy by vatican standard, so just admit it.  
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« Reply #93 on: January 09, 2011, 09:37:37 AM »

If he doesn't claim to replace God, then why did a top RCC catechist once go to me and say that only God's opinion was above the pope's,

That's not quite right. If the "Church" is THE Church, then it's teachings are true. The only thing that can speak about God better then, is God Himself.

If the Pope is leader (CEO, Final authority) of His Church on Earth, He could speak for the Church, exercising the whole Church's "Truth", as leader and final word". That's Papal infalliability.

Other than in that way, his opinions are only opinions. Still those of "the earthly leader/head-bishop, but not infallible.

and also how do you explain the blasphemous title of "Vicar of Christ" ? Latin Vicarius means "instead of" therefore your pope is instead of Christ on Earth which is a blasphemy since Christ is alive and presiding as our High Priest in heaven.

Technically, all priests are vicars of Christ, especially during the Eucharist. The stand in His physical place, not "replacing" Him, but physically standing for Him, so the He may act through them a leader of flocks of the faithful.

In the same way, the Pope would not replace Jesus, but stand for Him, so as to be a physical voice and leader for the Church.
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« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2011, 10:50:35 AM »

If he doesn't claim to replace God, then why did a top RCC catechist once go to me and say that only God's opinion was above the pope's,

That's not quite right. If the "Church" is THE Church, then it's teachings are true. The only thing that can speak about God better then, is God Himself.

If the Pope is leader (CEO, Final authority) of His Church on Earth, He could speak for the Church, exercising the whole Church's "Truth", as leader and final word". That's Papal infalliability.
No, the CEO is responsible to the Board, must present facts with substantiation from the yearly reports, etc.

The General Secretary of the Party, dictating the results of the latest 5 year plan (which have no relationship to reality) to Party Congress, whose members lives depend on the favor of the GS, and so rubber stamp whatever the GS puts in front of them, THAT's "Papal Infalliability."

Other than in that way, his opinions are only opinions. Still those of "the earthly leader/head-bishop, but not infallible.

and also how do you explain the blasphemous title of "Vicar of Christ" ? Latin Vicarius means "instead of" therefore your pope is instead of Christ on Earth which is a blasphemy since Christ is alive and presiding as our High Priest in heaven.

Technically, all priests are vicars of Christ, especially during the Eucharist.[/quote]

Actually, no, they are not. That's another inovation of the Vatican to think that they are.

The stand in His physical place, not "replacing" Him, but physically standing for Him, so the He may act through them a leader of flocks of the faithful.
He also acts through the flocks of the Faithful.  Hence why an Orthodox priest does not celebrate DL by himself, and hence why, should he go into schism or heresy, he does not take the charism "to confect the eucharist" with him.

In the same way, the Pope would not replace Jesus, but stand for Him, so as to be a physical voice and leader for the Church.
You may have noticed the distinction, that is, between "a physical voice and leader" and "the physical voice and leader".
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« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2011, 02:46:13 PM »

If he doesn't claim to replace God, then why did a top RCC catechist once go to me and say that only God's opinion was above the pope's,

That's not quite right. If the "Church" is THE Church, then it's teachings are true. The only thing that can speak about God better then, is God Himself.

If the Pope is leader (CEO, Final authority) of His Church on Earth, He could speak for the Church, exercising the whole Church's "Truth", as leader and final word". That's Papal infalliability.
No, the CEO is responsible to the Board, must present facts with substantiation from the yearly reports, etc.

The General Secretary of the Party, dictating the results of the latest 5 year plan (which have no relationship to reality) to Party Congress, whose members lives depend on the favor of the GS, and so rubber stamp whatever the GS puts in front of them, THAT's "Papal Infalliability."

Other than in that way, his opinions are only opinions. Still those of "the earthly leader/head-bishop, but not infallible.

and also how do you explain the blasphemous title of "Vicar of Christ" ? Latin Vicarius means "instead of" therefore your pope is instead of Christ on Earth which is a blasphemy since Christ is alive and presiding as our High Priest in heaven.

Technically, all priests are vicars of Christ, especially during the Eucharist.

Actually, no, they are not. That's another inovation of the Vatican to think that they are.

So you don't think that when the priest reenacts the last supper during the Eucharistic prayers, he is not speaking Jesus' word's for him?

I don't find this problematic.

The stand in His physical place, not "replacing" Him, but physically standing for Him, so the He may act through them a leader of flocks of the faithful.
He also acts through the flocks of the Faithful.  Hence why an Orthodox priest does not celebrate DL by himself, and hence why, should he go into schism or heresy, he does not take the charism "to confect the eucharist" with him.

The Orthodox's popular stance may be to view ordination as authority granted by the Church only, but the Roman Catholics view ordination as a Grace given (similar to Baptism, Chrismation, etc) that once given, is not retractable. You cannot be unbaptised, nor can you be unordained. You can removed yourself from the Church, but the grace has been given.

In the same way, the Pope would not replace Jesus, but stand for Him, so as to be a physical voice and leader for the Church.
You may have noticed the distinction, that is, between "a physical voice and leader" and "the physical voice and leader".
Cheesy

Yeah, I did. Of course, I would counter "a" is for every priest, while "the" is for the Primate.
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« Reply #96 on: January 09, 2011, 04:13:01 PM »

If he doesn't claim to replace God, then why did a top RCC catechist once go to me and say that only God's opinion was above the pope's,

That's not quite right. If the "Church" is THE Church, then it's teachings are true. The only thing that can speak about God better then, is God Himself.

If the Pope is leader (CEO, Final authority) of His Church on Earth, He could speak for the Church, exercising the whole Church's "Truth", as leader and final word". That's Papal infalliability.
No, the CEO is responsible to the Board, must present facts with substantiation from the yearly reports, etc.

The General Secretary of the Party, dictating the results of the latest 5 year plan (which have no relationship to reality) to Party Congress, whose members lives depend on the favor of the GS, and so rubber stamp whatever the GS puts in front of them, THAT's "Papal Infalliability."

Other than in that way, his opinions are only opinions. Still those of "the earthly leader/head-bishop, but not infallible.

and also how do you explain the blasphemous title of "Vicar of Christ" ? Latin Vicarius means "instead of" therefore your pope is instead of Christ on Earth which is a blasphemy since Christ is alive and presiding as our High Priest in heaven.

Technically, all priests are vicars of Christ, especially during the Eucharist.

Actually, no, they are not. That's another inovation of the Vatican to think that they are.
So you don't think that when the priest reenacts the last supper

the priest doesn't reenact the last supper. He enters into the Mystical Supper.

during the Eucharistic prayers, he is not speaking Jesus' word's for him?

Not relevant, as his reading of the Words of Institution do not make the Eucharist, but his speaking the prayer of the Epiclesis for the Church.

I don't find this problematic.
What is "this"?

The stand in His physical place, not "replacing" Him, but physically standing for Him, so the He may act through them a leader of flocks of the faithful.
He also acts through the flocks of the Faithful.  Hence why an Orthodox priest does not celebrate DL by himself, and hence why, should he go into schism or heresy, he does not take the charism "to confect the eucharist" with him.
The Orthodox's popular
, hierarchical and Apostolic
Quote
stance may be to view ordination as authority granted by the Church only, but the Roman Catholics view ordination as a Grace given (similar to Baptism, Chrismation, etc) that once given, is not retractable.
I am aware of the Vatican's misunderstanding on the matter.

We Orthodox have only one High Priest

Quote
You cannot be unbaptised, nor can you be unordained. You can removed yourself from the Church, but the grace has been given.
One can participate in the priesthood of the one High Priest only in His Church.

In the same way, the Pope would not replace Jesus, but stand for Him, so as to be a physical voice and leader for the Church.
You may have noticed the distinction, that is, between "a physical voice and leader" and "the physical voice and leader".
Cheesy
Yeah, I did. Of course, I would counter "a" is for every priest, while "the" is for the Primate.
"a" is for no priest, and "the" is for every primate, indeed every bishop.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 04:13:55 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #97 on: January 09, 2011, 04:30:30 PM »


The Orthodox's popular stance may be to view ordination as authority granted by the Church only, but the Roman Catholics view ordination as a Grace given (similar to Baptism, Chrismation, etc) that once given, is not retractable. You cannot be unbaptised, nor can you be unordained. You can removed yourself from the Church, but the grace has been given.


Dear Azurestone,

The idea of an indelible mark of the Priesthood is a fairly recent Roman Catholic thing.


No Indelible Mark of the Priesthood in Patristic Teaching

"....no evidence concerning the indelible mark theory can be found in
Patristic teaching. On the contrary, the canonical data leave no doubt that
a defrocked priest or bishop, after the decision of the Church to take back
his priesthood, returns to the rank of the laity. The anathematized or the
defrocked are in no way considered to maintain their priesthood."

___________________________________________

"Christian Priesthood and Ecclesial Unity: Some Theological and Canonical
Considerations"


By Professor Constantine Scouteris
School of Theology of the University of Athens

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/canon_law/scouteris_priesthood_unity.htm

Please see message at
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« Reply #98 on: January 09, 2011, 04:35:03 PM »

In the same way, the Pope would not replace Jesus, but stand for Him, so as to be a physical voice and leader for the Church.

And why do we need this?

A glorified Press Secretary for Jesus?
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« Reply #99 on: January 09, 2011, 07:38:36 PM »

In the same way, the Pope would not replace Jesus, but stand for Him, so as to be a physical voice and leader for the Church.

And why do we need this?

A glorified Press Secretary for Jesus?

One would probably argue for the same reasons we need bishops, and also, perhaps for a similar reason as the Sacrament of Confession, to hear physical words of guidance.

St. Jerome
Letter to Evangelus
Quote
When subsequently one presbyter was chosen to preside over the rest, this was done to remedy schism and to prevent each individual from rending the church of Christ by drawing it to himself. For even at Alexandria from the time of Mark the Evangelist until the episcopates of Heraclas and Dionysius the presbyters always named as bishop one of their own number chosen by themselves and set in a more exalted position, just as an army elects a general, or as deacons appoint one of themselves whom they know to be diligent and call him archdeacon. For what function, excepting ordination, belongs to a bishop that does not also belong to a presbyter? It is not the case that there is one church at Rome and another in all the world beside.
http://www1000.newadvent.org/fathers/3001146.htm

"In other words, presbyters (including the bishops) are "priests" (hiereus) in the sense that only they can offer the bloodless sacrifice on behalf of the people. Yet, a particular presbyter is set aside as visible and permanent sign of unity, as Peter was set aside among the Twelve." Laurent Cleenewerck, His Broken Body, p. 72

As has been also noted by Cleenewerck, (in short) a contribution to this is what one understands the words "whole catholic Church" to mean. To a Roman Catholic, this would likely mean all the faithful who are in communion with one another in unity. To an Eastern Orthodox, however, this would likely be everything from a local church in the country to all the right believing faithful who commune in the Eucharist. In other words, "unity through physical communion" verses "unity in the Eucharist". While not a black and white line between the traditions, it does propose a conversational barrier.

Therefore, a pope, under the Orthodox definition means little. However, to a Latin, the organizational structure as a whole needs a head, and therefore, the concept of the Church's primate comes up, with the same definition of the bishop for it's basis.
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« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2011, 08:16:36 PM »


The Orthodox's popular stance may be to view ordination as authority granted by the Church only, but the Roman Catholics view ordination as a Grace given (similar to Baptism, Chrismation, etc) that once given, is not retractable. You cannot be unbaptised, nor can you be unordained. You can removed yourself from the Church, but the grace has been given.


Dear Azurestone,

The idea of an indelible mark of the Priesthood is a fairly recent Roman Catholic thing.

I prefer the following Orthodox understanding of the priesthood.  It is much more Catholic in its description of Holy Orders.  Also it seems to me that what you speak of as defrocking is what the Catholic Church speaks of as laicization.  However as the following description notes, Holy Orders establishes a relationship between the man and Christ that is ontological and I would imagine that those of this world cannot really touch that once it is done...so it seems to me from the article below.

http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/priesthood_symeon_thessalonica.htm

Quote
On the Priesthood

by St Symeon Archbishop of Thessalonica


What a Priest Is.

A priest, he says, has been deemed worthy to be a “minister” (διάκονος) of Christ and a “liturgist” (Λειτουργός), a “guardian” (παραστάτης) and a “beholder” (θεωρός) of the Mysteries, who draws near and communicates in them, and also a “preacher” (κήρυξ) of the Gospel. There are no veils any more interfering in this way, says St. Symeon, because a priest can behold the divine Light directly without any obstacle. He is no longer in need of a Seraph in order to receive the Mysteries, because he takes them with the tongs (λαβίς). Indeed, he himself is now the Seraph, by virtue of his consecration to the priesthood. He is the one that calls others to draw near to God, because he now holds in his hands the divine Mysteries and addresses the faithful, admonishing them to be attentive and offers them to Christ, and is actually the way and the guide of others towards the Light. Indeed, a priest is both a "Cherub," because he can see fully through the Mysteries the One, who sees all things, and a fire bearing "Seraph," because he holds the living Coal. Furthermore, a priest is a "throne," because through the Liturgy and the Communion, he has the One, who is present everywhere resting on himself; and he is also an angel, as God's servant and liturgist.

A priest is all the above, says St. Symeon, not in an imaginary way, but really and truly, because he does not serve the divine Mysteries "in a merely iconic or merely typical (symbolic) way," but truly serves the very Master, who is escorted in the heavens above by the immaterial powers. "Indeed, a priest does on earth what the immaterial powers do in heaven, because this is what the Designer of all was pleased with and wanted to establish, namely, that one and the same Liturgy should be observed both above and below."

Clearly, this description has two basic characteristics, both of which are tied to the Lord Jesus Christ. The first one is strictly connected with Christ's person, inasmuch as a priest belongs entirely to Christ through receiving his priestly identity from him, being constantly connected with him and having his reference always to him. The second characteristic is that a priest's service has a direct link and reference to Christ's work, which was accomplished for all creation, the realities above and the realities below. This close link of the priesthood with Christ's person and work is spelled out in the next paragraph, which explains how the priest's service truly reveals who Christ is and what he has done for the entire, created world in general and mankind in particular.

Christ's Work Extended Through the Priesthood.

The priest's service, says St. Symeon, reveals what Christ himself did for us when he appeared to the world as a man like us. This work can be described as follows:

Having procured his union with us, i.e. having willingly put on matter, Christ, who alone is immaterial, united himself with human beings, who are endowed with material senses. It is crucial here that He, who is by nature uncreated and without beginning, in his desire to be united with creation, was not united with the immaterial and creaturely nature of the angels — for angels were created out of nothing, immaterial and immortal by grace and participants of his Glory according to the measure of grace that was allotted to each of them. Rather, Christ put on our creaturely body and was united personally (ύποστατικώς) with us, without being separated from the Godhead and without being confused with the human nature, to which he transmitted the glories and benefits of the Godhead — "for in him," he says, "dwells the entire fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9).

Now, all this is related to the Priesthood, because just as Christ originally appeared to the world, according to his good pleasure, so now, he reveals himself through the sacred Mysteries (Sacraments) to the priests and through them to the world! Christ's amazing, divine work, which escapes the grasp of human reason, has been entrusted to the priest, who serves the Liturgy and initiates others to it. What a priest does is to reveal Christ again, i.e. to present him truly and fully to the world of his time through the sacred Mysteries, which he handles according to the divine ordinance. In other words, a priest represents Christ's perpetual and saving grace granted to the world through the celebration of Christ's mysteries.

Herein lies, according to St. Symeon, the great dignity of the priesthood, which is greater than that given to the angels. The Mysteries, which priests handle, have to do with the fact that the Master, who contains all things and is himself incomprehensible, becomes for us localized. Though he cannot be touched, human hands uphold him. Though he is invisible, he submits to the senses and become visible. Though he is inconceivable by the human mind, he is received by human beings through our humble and fallen nature, by means of the priesthood, which has been instituted by him. This is the miracle of miracles, that Christ appears through the Mysteries; that he is given, carried, communicated; that he indwells in us and brings us peace, expiation and sustenance.

This is, says St. Symeon, the most novel of all happenings, the greatest gift to humanity, the highest power, authority and grace. By this, the priests, who are human beings, made of soil and clay and resembling worms of the earth, appear as heavenly Authorities and Powers (Angels). Indeed, the power of the priesthood makes human beings greater than these heavenly hosts. Priests are partakers of a mightier creation through the administration of holy Baptism and the other Mysteries. They become fathers of sons of God, or fathers of those, who become gods by grace. They act in a way that cancels out the effects of sin and, thus, deliver the souls, unlock the gates of paradise, dissolve eternal bonds. Priests are empowered to perform divine acts, as God's collaborators for the salvation of human beings.

This being the case, it is obvious that priests have been granted the greatest charismas and gifts and, as such, are the greatest debtors to God. And it could not be otherwise, for they are compared to the heavenly Powers. These many-eyed orders of Angels behold God's glory all the time. They tremble and shudder at this sight, and yet, they are in greater awe when they observe the manifold Wisdom of God, which they come to know through the Church, as St. Paul says. These angelic orders are in awe, because of their creaturely nature and immeasurable goodness of God, but they are also amazed and fearful at the awesome, divine Mysteries performed by the priesthood.
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« Reply #101 on: January 09, 2011, 10:14:12 PM »

Just to break in for a moment-- how long is this going to go on? Do you have any other shtick?

We get it. You don't accept the claims to legitimacy of the present conception of the RCC papacy. I don't think you need a lot more pages to show that. Even in high school on the debate team, they didn't let you repeat your point over and over.

Do you think doing things like putting pictures of the Pope next to Hitler and calling them "German shepherds of one type or another" is really going to help you convince people of your ideas, or drive them away?

Is that sort of thing allowed on this board? The Hitler picture thing? At the very least, in terms of Internet debate, you just "Godwinned" the argument, i.e., made it so overdone that you lost. (And not to mention very insulting to someone whose Catholic grandfather's brothers fought in Normandy. But I'm sure you'll say that is 'beside the point.'  Roll Eyes )

To someone who grew up Catholic, this just looks like a waste of time, because you're not going to un-convince the Catholics of issues they themselves think were settled hundreds of years ago.

What is the purpose of this thread? It isn't going to clear up anything, it only repeats claims the Catholics do not accept from the Orthodox, and vice versa; and it surely hasn't increased anybody's good will. Is this really in the Christian spirit?

I guess if you accept the idea that the Catholics don't have a Pope because there were times when there were false claimants to the rank, and the actual office holder had to live in a different city for a while, you may believe the United States has no current capital-- because it was at Philadelphia for some years, and now it's D.C., so D.C. can't possibly be the "real" capital. I guess nothing has changed since then...  Roll Eyes

Do you think you'll eventually make a rule that Catholics either shouldn't join this board, or should have to get used to deliberately being 'called out'? Adult Catholics are usually familiar with the Orthodox counters to their points of view. There is no need to rub their faces in them.

It's really a good thing that the people in my parish, the priest and the people in the congregation, are well-disposed toward me and treat me in a friendly way. Lately, I get the impression that if all I knew were this board, I wouldn't try to have any church home at all.
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« Reply #102 on: January 09, 2011, 10:20:29 PM »


The Orthodox's popular stance may be to view ordination as authority granted by the Church only, but the Roman Catholics view ordination as a Grace given (similar to Baptism, Chrismation, etc) that once given, is not retractable. You cannot be unbaptised, nor can you be unordained. You can removed yourself from the Church, but the grace has been given.


Dear Azurestone,

The idea of an indelible mark of the Priesthood is a fairly recent Roman Catholic thing.


No Indelible Mark of the Priesthood in Patristic Teaching

"....no evidence concerning the indelible mark theory can be found in
Patristic teaching. On the contrary, the canonical data leave no doubt that
a defrocked priest or bishop, after the decision of the Church to take back
his priesthood, returns to the rank of the laity. The anathematized or the
defrocked are in no way considered to maintain their priesthood."

___________________________________________

"Christian Priesthood and Ecclesial Unity: Some Theological and Canonical
Considerations"


By Professor Constantine Scouteris
School of Theology of the University of Athens

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/canon_law/scouteris_priesthood_unity.htm

Please see message at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20180.msg300372.html#msg300372



The indelible mark theory is a fabulous lie invented by scholastics. A recent statement of the Assyrian Church of the East re-affirmed this, because Roman Catholics are trying to re-ordain a disgraced cleric who was scamming money off the ACOE who went to them :

http://www.assyriatimes.com/engine/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3443


Roman Catholics takings "sacraments" from deposed clerics of other churches are risking going to hell since the canons of Nicea FORBID wandering bishops. This is a monstrous thing to allow people to take sacraments from so called priests who were excommunicated in other churches. The "indelible mark" is a fiction as the article clearly shows.
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« Reply #103 on: January 09, 2011, 10:25:29 PM »

An interesting point, from a Catholic missal I used to have: members of the Church of the East are permitted to receive Holy Communion in RCC churches.  Smiley
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« Reply #104 on: January 09, 2011, 10:27:55 PM »

An interesting point, from a Catholic missal I used to have: members of the Church of the East are permitted to receive Holy Communion in RCC churches.  Smiley

You are invited to the Qurbana Qadisha (Holy Eucharist) in the ACOE (all Christians baptized validly in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are). I don't know if somebody in the ACOE is allowed to partake of communion in the RCC. The ACOE does not accept the indelible mark theory though, in fact somebody taking "sacraments" from a priest defrocked in another Church is in grave danger, is not taking valid sacraments. This is accordance with the canons of Nicea.
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« Reply #105 on: January 09, 2011, 10:33:23 PM »


The Orthodox's popular stance may be to view ordination as authority granted by the Church only, but the Roman Catholics view ordination as a Grace given (similar to Baptism, Chrismation, etc) that once given, is not retractable. You cannot be unbaptised, nor can you be unordained. You can removed yourself from the Church, but the grace has been given.


Dear Azurestone,

The idea of an indelible mark of the Priesthood is a fairly recent Roman Catholic thing.


No Indelible Mark of the Priesthood in Patristic Teaching

"....no evidence concerning the indelible mark theory can be found in
Patristic teaching. On the contrary, the canonical data leave no doubt that
a defrocked priest or bishop, after the decision of the Church to take back
his priesthood, returns to the rank of the laity. The anathematized or the
defrocked are in no way considered to maintain their priesthood."

___________________________________________

"Christian Priesthood and Ecclesial Unity: Some Theological and Canonical
Considerations"


By Professor Constantine Scouteris
School of Theology of the University of Athens

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/canon_law/scouteris_priesthood_unity.htm

Please see message at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20180.msg300372.html#msg300372



The indelible mark theory is a fabulous lie invented by scholastics. A recent statement of the Assyrian Church of the East re-affirmed this, because Roman Catholics are trying to re-ordain a disgraced cleric who was scamming money off the ACOE who went to them :

http://www.assyriatimes.com/engine/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3443


Roman Catholics takings "sacraments" from deposed clerics of other churches are risking going to hell since the canons of Nicea FORBID wandering bishops. This is a monstrous thing to allow people to take sacraments from so called priests who were excommunicated in other churches. The "indelible mark" is a fiction as the article clearly shows.

Aside from a using a news article as authoritive, the ACOE is not another church as the canon states. The ACOE is OUTSIDE the Catholic Church, therefore the priest would be returning to the Church, not leaving one local church for another.
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« Reply #106 on: January 09, 2011, 10:36:41 PM »

Please stop hijacking the term "catholic", to be "Catholic" is not to be under the pope but to be part of the Universal Church...

It's not a news article only, it's a news article quoting an official document from the ACOE released on this issue. This document also shows how the position is in accordance with the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox just like Father Ambrose argued for.

To take "sacraments" from a priest deposed in another Church is to take fake invalid sacraments, this is a life or death issue, people might be going to Hell over this.
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« Reply #107 on: January 09, 2011, 10:39:29 PM »

Is that sort of thing allowed on this board?
AFAIK, yes it is. Isa's reductio ad Hitlerum argument certainly is a ridiculous comparison to make in this case, and I'm sure many will find it extremely offensive, but I'm not aware that such an argument is forbidden by the rules of our forum. However, since I'm only speaking for my own understanding of the rules and not representing a mod team consensus, don't hold me to be the authority on this question.
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« Reply #108 on: January 09, 2011, 10:46:17 PM »

Please stop hijacking the term "catholic", to be "Catholic" is not to be under the pope but to be part of the Universal Church...

Looks like you just tried to 'hijack' it, then. I'm sure you're going to do a good job convincing the RCCs, who have a billion people in their church, that they have no right to the word. The Orthodox number 250 million, so who, literally, has more people, and by definition reaches more of the population? I see...

They've been using it for a long time. Whether you like this or don't, is a different issue. I really doubt they are going to drop the term. What else are they going to call themselves? They're not going to drop their name for themselves because other people don't like it. We have to have some colloquial term for them; everyone knows what you mean when you say "Roman Catholic," so I'm sorry, they're called that in the dictionary and I did not 'hijack' anything.

For a church that doesn't like to have a Pope, because there's too much danger he'd 'tell people what to do,' some folks sure like to, uh, tell other people what to do.
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« Reply #109 on: January 09, 2011, 10:52:14 PM »

Isa's posted Picture Pope/Hitler , was right on the Mark......I liked it alot,Plus you won't get any complains from me......  Didn't the pope serve Hitler in his youth..... Grin
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« Reply #110 on: January 09, 2011, 10:54:06 PM »

Please stop hijacking the term "catholic", to be "Catholic" is not to be under the pope but to be part of the Universal Church...

Oh great, another claimant to the name.

I will often attempt to tack Roman or R. to the front of Catholic when referring to the Roman Catholic Church, but I'm not going to apologize to everyone who get's upset about stepping on their right's to the title. It's common usage, in that format. You'll figure it out.

Not going there again.

It's not a news article only, it's a news article quoting an official document from the ACOE released on this issue. This document also shows how the position is in accordance with the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox just like Father Ambrose argued for.


Since I find pretty much every "Church's" modern contrary statements speculative, you'll need to back up the statement with patristics. I'm not going to take a modern ACOE clergy as a definitive answer.

To take "sacraments" from a priest deposed in another Church is to take fake invalid sacraments, this is a life or death issue, people might be going to Hell over this.

Again... The ACOE is outside the Catholic Church. Therefore, it's rulings aren't binding or authoritative. A returning priest is of no consequence.
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« Reply #111 on: January 09, 2011, 10:56:05 PM »

The patristics are in the article- the CANONS OF NICEA, the canons of the Eastern Orthodox churches, the canons contained in the  synodicon orientale (canons of the ACOE)...

Quote
Again... The ACOE is outside the Catholic Church.

The ACOE is part of the UNIVERSAL (Catholic) Church. It is not under the pope if that is what you mean. *Phew* thank God  Grin
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« Reply #112 on: January 09, 2011, 10:57:07 PM »

The then-Joseph Ratzinger was inducted not by choice but by a German law which also inducted everyone in his age group. They were declared members by fiat. He has always said this, and has repeatedly said how much he regretted it. Don't let the facts get in the way of your story, though.

If somebody repents, which he has, the Christian thing to do is forgive them. I guess the present fact doesn't enter into your concept of time and space, though.
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« Reply #113 on: January 09, 2011, 10:58:09 PM »

The patristics are in the article- the CANONS OF NICEA, the canons of the Eastern Orthodox churches, the canons contained in the  synodicon orientale (canons of the ACOE)...

I've said it twice.
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« Reply #114 on: January 09, 2011, 11:00:39 PM »

The patristics are in the article- the CANONS OF NICEA, the canons of the Eastern Orthodox churches, the canons contained in the  synodicon orientale (canons of the ACOE)...

Again, look in the Daily Roman Missal, published by the Midwest Theological Forum.

Do you choose to disagree with your own church, if they are allowed to take Communion in a RCC church? Your disagreement seems to have been obviated. Whether or not you like something, does not make it any less a fact.
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« Reply #115 on: January 09, 2011, 11:04:41 PM »

Isa's posted Picture Pope/Hitler , was right on the Mark......I liked it alot,Plus you won't get any complains from me......  Didn't the pope serve Hitler in his youth..... Grin
Drafted to serve in the Hitler Youth during WWII, but many German young men were at that time. I hardly see how that can be used as justification for your attempts to disparage the pope today, especially since the young Joseph Ratzinger was drafted against his will and really didn't want to be there. Then again, you look for any and all reasons to condemn the current pope, be they truthful or not, so why should I be surprised by this, your latest show of inanity?
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« Reply #116 on: January 09, 2011, 11:11:59 PM »

The patristics are in the article- the CANONS OF NICEA, the canons of the Eastern Orthodox churches, the canons contained in the  synodicon orientale (canons of the ACOE)...

I've said it twice.

Ok, I'll just copy it from the article:

Your own Canon law :
Quote
First, let us look at what the code of canon law which governs all of the Eastern Catholic Churches has to say in regards to a cleric losing his clerical status in the Catholic Church. Let me list these canons for your dear cor-bishop:

    1. Canon 394, par. 2: “A cleric, however, loses the clerical state…by the legitimate infliction of the penalty of dismissal…” [7]

    2. Canon 395: “A cleric loses the clerical state according to the norms of the law, loses with it the rights proper to the clerical state nor is he further bound by the obligations of the clerical state without prejudice, however, to cann. 396 (he may not be dispensed from celibacy); he is forbidden to exercise the power of order without prejudice to cann. 725 [the possibility to absolve sinners] and 735, par. 2 [the possibility to hear confessions]; he is by the law itself deprived of all offices, ministries, functions and any delegated power. ” [8]

    3. Canon 1433, par. 2: “A cleric deposed from the clerical state is deprived of all offices, ministries or other functions, ecclesiastical pensions and any delegated power; he becomes disqualified for them; he is forbidden to exercise the power of orders; he cannot be promoted to higher holy orders, and is equivalent to lay persons in respect to canonical affairs…” [9]

Second, let us take a look at what the canons of the Eastern Catholic Churches say in regards to excommunication:

    1. Canon 1434, par. 1: “In addition to all things mentioned in can. 1431, par. 1, a major excommunication forbids one to receive other sacraments, to administer sacraments and sacramentals, to exercise any offices, ministries and functions, to place acts of governance, which if they are nonetheless placed, are null by law itself.” [10]

    2. Canon 1434, par. 2: “One punished with a major excommunication is to be turned away from participating in the Divine Liturgy and in other public celebrations of divine worship.” [11]

    3. Canon 1434, par. 3: “One punished with a major excommunication is forbidden to make use of privileges previously granted. He cannot validly obtain dignities, offices, ministries, or any other function in the Church or a pension, and he cannot acquire the revenues attached to them…” [12]

Quote
Again, in the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, the canon against insubordination states:

    1. Canon 1437: “One who refuses subjection to the supreme authority of the Church, or who is subject to it refuses communion with the Christian faithful, though legitimately admonished does not obey, is to be punished as a schismatic with a major excommunication.” [13]

    2. Canon 1466: “One who disobeys his own hierarch when the latter legitimately issues orders or prohibitions, and who after a warning persists in such disobedience, is to be punished as delinquent with an appropriate penalty.” [14]

    3 Canon 1447, par. 1: “One who incites sedition and hatred toward any hierarch whatsoever or provokes his subjects to disobedience, is to be punished with an appropriate penalty, not excluding major excommunication, especially if the offense was committed against a patriarch (or indeed against the Roman Pontiff).” [15]

Now for the ACOE Canon law for the decree of excommunication and deposition from the priesthood (Qatharasis) :

Quote
The canon laws of the Assyrian Church of the East regarding Qatharasis are very clear; to name but a few:

    1. “Qatharais is the deposition from the clerical state, [as] one who is dead who does not receive life, and is only to be decreed concerning priests and the head of priests (i.e. bishops), and the one who is given Qatharasis, he shall not be clad with the dignity of which he formerly had, even after his repentance, at all” (Collection of Synodical Canons of Mar Abdisho of Nisibis: Part II, Memra I, Chapter 22).

    2. “Concerning those who are anathematized, excommunicated, and utterly dismissed from the ministry of their priesthood, that they may not be received. A bishop, then, or a metropolitan who once has been cut off and cast out by the great Synod, or a presbyter or deacon by their bishop in a council of priests and deacons, as those who have been tried and convicted for their faults, no longer ought to be admitted to the ministry of which they were justly stripped, and there may no longer be mercies for them—nor, indeed, when they go creeping round about and pestering and making helpers for themselves. There may not be helpers for them, and there may not be for them a hope of being accepted, nor may a place for compassion be found for them. The prior confusions which came about through the rebellious and worthless may no longer be, such a brought about the confusion of the divine laws and paternal canons. Those who are excommunicated and dismissed by the sentence which once went out against them from the great synod may not again be admitted in ecclesiastical assemblies by another synod, but all those as well who fellowship with them or help them shall receive the censure and suspension naturally fitting to them, especially (if), after having learned the judgment which went out against them, they still venture to assist them. This edict concerning these things was decreed also in an earlier synod by the blessed fathers” (Synod of Patriarch Mar Isho’yahb I, 587 AD, Canon 18).

Further, we read in the Synodicon Orientale (‘Eastern Synods’), that those clerics (in particular bishops) who have been bound, deposed and utterly laicized, they may continue to receive the Holy Eucharist only if they offer their penance and repent before the whole Church, to the satisfaction of and with a decree by the Holy Synod: “…may he be loosed and void from all the ranks of the priesthood, and may he be bound also from ecclesiastical fellowship until he offers repentance and it is seen to the Synod of Bishops, and he [may be] absolved unto the communion of the Holy Mysteries” (Synod of Patriarch Mar Yosip of 554 AD; Canon 5). [16]

and just read Father Ambrose's link to see that the indelible mark theory is a fable that never existed in the Orthodox Church. So your own church testifies against the "indelible mark", the ACOE which is truly Ancient and Apostolic does, the Eastern Orthodox Church does according to Father Ambrose and he can fill in some more for us, and the Canons of Nicea and Apostolic canons forbid the "indelible mark" satanic theory which is making people take invalid sacraments.


Churches ought not to receive priests, deacons, or other clergy, who without the fear of God and in disregard for church law, recklessly abandon their own churches. Such men should be encouraged by all available means to re-join their own parishes. If they will not return, they must be excommunicated. The ordination will be void if anyone dares to secretly ordain a man who belongs to another church without the consent of his bishop whose jurisdiction the latter has left, even if he had previously been enrolled on the list of clergy.
-Canon 16 of Nicea





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« Reply #117 on: January 09, 2011, 11:14:21 PM »

How do you know The  Pope didn't want to join ,Plus
To fit in with his peers, he probably was Nazi number One
to show his peers he can do better then they can ,Must be a german thing...... Grin

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« Reply #118 on: January 09, 2011, 11:17:09 PM »

How do you know The  Pope didn't want to join ,Plus
To fit in with his peers, he probably was Nazi number One
to show his peers he can do better ,Must be a german thing...... Grin



Anti-Catholic and racist. Stashko strikes again.  Cheesy
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« Reply #119 on: January 09, 2011, 11:18:42 PM »

Rafa, perhaps you can explain how those apply. Because I'm not seeing something that you are.
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« Reply #120 on: January 09, 2011, 11:20:15 PM »

How do you know The  Pope didn't want to join

Because he was inducted by law; because he has repeatedly said so; because there is ample documentation of this fact; and because I can read.
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« Reply #121 on: January 09, 2011, 11:22:51 PM »

And we Orthodox Christians have to take his word on it, because he says so.....
I don't think so...... Grin
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« Reply #122 on: January 09, 2011, 11:23:32 PM »

Rafa, perhaps you can explain how those apply. Because I'm not seeing something that you are.

Why does the RCC allow excommunicated clergy from the Eastern orthodox church, Oriental orthodox church, and ACOE, to be received and deliver invalid sacraments to Roman Catholics in U-branches of the Roman catholic church?
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« Reply #123 on: January 09, 2011, 11:25:10 PM »

How do you know The  Pope didn't want to join ,
Pope Benedict has made public statements, to which others have alluded here, that he regretted ever joining the Hitler Youth. It has been documented that he didn't want to be in the Hitler Youth. It is also documented that his father opposed Nazism as something contrary to the Catholic faith. I think the onus is therefore on you to prove that he did want to join.

Plus
To fit in with his peers, he probably was Nazi number One
to show his peers he can do better ,
Pure conjecture that you're going to have to prove. We don't judge a person by what we think he might have done. We judge a person by what he did do. To speculate like this about someone is nothing short of libel.

Must be a german thing...... Grin
And that is about the most racist thing anything could ever say here. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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« Reply #124 on: January 09, 2011, 11:31:55 PM »

Rafa, perhaps you can explain how those apply. Because I'm not seeing something that you are.

Why does the RCC allow excommunicated clergy from the Eastern orthodox church, Oriental orthodox church, and ACOE, to be received and deliver invalid sacraments to Roman Catholics in U-branches of the Roman catholic church?
How is that even relevant to the OP? Even though stashko's posts over the last few minutes were over the top in their libelous speculations, they were at least relevant to the topic of weak links in the chain of papal succession. I wouldn't grant that praise to your posts on RC-ACOE relations and intercommunion. ISTM that you've derailed this thread with a subject that would be addressed much more effectively on another thread. Can you explain to me how my perception is wrong?
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« Reply #125 on: January 09, 2011, 11:32:20 PM »

Rafa, perhaps you can explain how those apply. Because I'm not seeing something that you are.

Why does the RCC allow excommunicated clergy from the Eastern orthodox church, Oriental orthodox church, and ACOE, to be received and deliver invalid sacraments to Roman Catholics in U-branches of the RCC ?

Because the RCC doesn't recognize the EO, OO, or ACOE to be part of the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church". The RCC believes the these churches hold most/all of the necessities of the faith and have valid apostolic succession (thus valid sacraments), but they are still in schism to the RCC.

The canons were to keep (think pre-schism) presbyters from hopping from one church that is in the communion (say Antioch) that excommunicates them, to another church (say Constantinople). If a RCC example, it would be like an excommunicated Melkite trying to join the Roman Church. The priest would need to be received back into the Church.

Therefore, being excommunicated from the ACOE is not an actual excommunication (in the eyes of the RCC).
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« Reply #126 on: January 09, 2011, 11:34:11 PM »

Actually I was born in Germany....
When Germans are at a Bus stop ,there all lined up in neat
soldiers line.. the Frist one there at the bus stop is the first one to
board the bus, it not like here in the U.S. where the First one may end up boarding last......
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« Reply #127 on: January 09, 2011, 11:36:35 PM »

Quote from: Rafa999
Why does the RCC allow excommunicated clergy from the Eastern orthodox church, Oriental orthodox church, and ACOE, to be received and deliver invalid sacraments to Roman Catholics in U-branches of the Roman catholic church?

Once clergy are received into a new communion, they are allowed to do what that church permits. They are not regarded as having two different status at the same time. What about 'received' do you not understand? When someone is received into a communion as a priest, he is permitted to serve in any branch. There is no more 'excommunication' operant.

I guess you think the Midwest Theological Forum made it up?

Again, just because you don't like something, does not make it any less of a fact.
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« Reply #128 on: January 09, 2011, 11:42:52 PM »

Rafa, perhaps you can explain how those apply. Because I'm not seeing something that you are.

Why does the RCC allow excommunicated clergy from the Eastern orthodox church, Oriental orthodox church, and ACOE, to be received and deliver invalid sacraments to Roman Catholics in U-branches of the Roman catholic church?
How is that even relevant to the OP? Even though stashko's posts over the last few minutes were over the top in their libelous speculations, they were at least relevant to the topic of weak links in the chain of papal succession. I wouldn't grant that praise to your posts on RC-ACOE relations and intercommunion. ISTM that you've derailed this thread with a subject that would be addressed much more effectively on another thread. Can you explain to me how my perception is wrong?

Father Ambrose brought the subject up on post 97. It is a serious subject since people in the Roman catholic church are taking invalid (fake) sacraments from clerics who were expelled from other churches. So you might have Orthodox priests who were defrocked who then go to the RCC to get accepted as "Eastern Catholic" priests. Such people cannot under any circumstances give sacraments because they have no such thing as an "indelible mark" or ordination as Father Ambrose noted...nor can they be re-ordained. I just wanted to give some documents re-affirming this truth from an ACOE perspective.
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« Reply #129 on: January 09, 2011, 11:45:04 PM »

The Pope has formally accepted the Assyrian Church of the East as a sister Church.


http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_11111994_assyrian-church_en.html
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« Reply #130 on: January 09, 2011, 11:50:02 PM »


They recognized their Truth of Christological faith. They are, like the EO and OO, in schism with the RCC.


Quote
Living by this faith and these sacraments, it follows as a consequence that the particular Catholic churches and the particular Assyrian churches can recognize each other as sister Churches. To be full and entire, communion presupposes the unanimity concerning the content of the faith, the sacraments and the constitution of the Church. Since this unanimity for which we aim has not yet been attained, we cannot unfortunately celebrate together the Eucharist which is the sign of the ecclesial communion already fully restored.

Nevertheless, the deep spiritual communion in the faith and the mutual trust already existing between our Churches, entitle us from now on to consider witnessing together to the Gospel message and cooperating in particular pastoral situations, including especially the areas of catechesis and the formation of future priests.

In thanking God for having made us rediscover what already unites us in the faith and the sacraments, we pledge ourselves to do everything possible to dispel the obstacles of the past which still prevent the attainment of full communion between our Churches, so that we can better respond to the Lord's call for the unity of his own, a unity which has of course to be expressed visibly. To overcome these obstacles, we now establish a Mixed Committee for theological dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East.

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« Reply #131 on: January 09, 2011, 11:51:34 PM »

Actually I was born in Germany....
When Germans are at a Bus stop ,there all lined up in neat
soldiers line.. the Frist one there at the bus stop is the first one to
board the bus, it not like here in the U.S. where the First one may end up boarding last......
Ohhh-kay... Undecided What does that have to do with the fact that my printer's out of ink?
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« Reply #132 on: January 09, 2011, 11:52:23 PM »

Rafa, perhaps you can explain how those apply. Because I'm not seeing something that you are.

Why does the RCC allow excommunicated clergy from the Eastern orthodox church, Oriental orthodox church, and ACOE, to be received and deliver invalid sacraments to Roman Catholics in U-branches of the Roman catholic church?
How is that even relevant to the OP? Even though stashko's posts over the last few minutes were over the top in their libelous speculations, they were at least relevant to the topic of weak links in the chain of papal succession. I wouldn't grant that praise to your posts on RC-ACOE relations and intercommunion. ISTM that you've derailed this thread with a subject that would be addressed much more effectively on another thread. Can you explain to me how my perception is wrong?

Father Ambrose brought the subject up on post 97. It is a serious subject since people in the Roman catholic church are taking invalid (fake) sacraments from clerics who were expelled from other churches. So you might have Orthodox priests who were defrocked who then go to the RCC to get accepted as "Eastern Catholic" priests. Such people cannot under any circumstances give sacraments because they have no such thing as an "indelible mark" or ordination as Father Ambrose noted...nor can they be re-ordained. I just wanted to give some documents re-affirming this truth from an ACOE perspective.
That's all well and good, but it doesn't have anything to do with the OP and would be better served on another thread. That's really my only complaint about your last few posts on this thread.
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« Reply #133 on: January 09, 2011, 11:55:05 PM »

Isa's posted Picture Pope/Hitler , was right on the Mark......I liked it alot,Plus you won't get any complains from me......  Didn't the pope serve Hitler in his youth..... Grin

Kind of like all those Serbian youth who led innocent Croats and Albanians to concentration camps in the 80s, 90s....and they were all communicants of the Holy Seriban Orthodox Church....which means you have innocent blood on your hands, too,,,, angel


Now that I've got that out my system, I say this with my moderator hat on.

ANY more talk that even toes the line using ethnic prejudice (and for the record, Isa's post did not dabble in this, but rather invoked Godwin's Law) in order to establish some sort of childish argument will earn the poster the strongest possible warning I can give out as a lowly moderator.  

DO NOT TEMPT ME
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« Reply #134 on: January 10, 2011, 12:03:44 AM »

I know what this thread needs: kittens! 



Everyone loves kittens!
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