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Author Topic: Kinks in the Chain:Weak Links in the Succession of Supreme Pontiffs  (Read 8341 times) Average Rating: 0
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Aindriú
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« Reply #135 on: January 10, 2011, 12:06:30 AM »

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« Reply #136 on: January 10, 2011, 12:10:51 AM »

Rafa, perhaps you can explain how those apply. Because I'm not seeing something that you are.

Why does the RCC allow excommunicated clergy from the Eastern orthodox church, Oriental orthodox church, and ACOE, to be received and deliver invalid sacraments to Roman Catholics in U-branches of the RCC ?

Because the RCC doesn't recognize the EO, OO, or ACOE to be part of the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church". The RCC believes the these churches hold most/all of the necessities of the faith and have valid apostolic succession (thus valid sacraments), but they are still in schism to the RCC.

The canons were to keep (think pre-schism) presbyters from hopping from one church that is in the communion (say Antioch) that excommunicates them, to another church (say Constantinople). If a RCC example, it would be like an excommunicated Melkite trying to join the Roman Church. The priest would need to be received back into the Church.

Therefore, being excommunicated from the ACOE is not an actual excommunication (in the eyes of the RCC).


The Assyrian Church of the East is NOT in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. An Assyrian defrocked cleric cannot give out valid sacraments in any church once he was been defrocked. No vagante bishops.  PERIOD.

the RCC defines "communion" as subjection to the pope. This is impossible for the Assyrian Church of the East. Of course all Roman catholics are invited to the Eucharist in the Assyrian Church of the East (as are Orthodox including the miaphysite churches such as Copts, Armenians, Ethiopans,etc.). Validly baptized Protestants are too.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 12:12:56 AM by Rafa999 » Logged

I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts
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« Reply #137 on: January 10, 2011, 12:13:02 AM »

Thank you! It needed to be said and you said it far better than I could have.

There was a time when I felt drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy but threads like this (and a number of others) make me wonder why I was once so enamored.

I do still believe Eastern Orthodoxy is a beautiful thing, but the types of "arguments" being used on this thread only serve to bring out the ugly. It really upsets me.

What happened to the reasoned, loving, intelligent debates?



Just to break in for a moment-- how long is this going to go on? Do you have any other shtick?

We get it. You don't accept the claims to legitimacy of the present conception of the RCC papacy. I don't think you need a lot more pages to show that. Even in high school on the debate team, they didn't let you repeat your point over and over.

Do you think doing things like putting pictures of the Pope next to Hitler and calling them "German shepherds of one type or another" is really going to help you convince people of your ideas, or drive them away?

Is that sort of thing allowed on this board? The Hitler picture thing? At the very least, in terms of Internet debate, you just "Godwinned" the argument, i.e., made it so overdone that you lost. (And not to mention very insulting to someone whose Catholic grandfather's brothers fought in Normandy. But I'm sure you'll say that is 'beside the point.'  Roll Eyes )

To someone who grew up Catholic, this just looks like a waste of time, because you're not going to un-convince the Catholics of issues they themselves think were settled hundreds of years ago.

What is the purpose of this thread? It isn't going to clear up anything, it only repeats claims the Catholics do not accept from the Orthodox, and vice versa; and it surely hasn't increased anybody's good will. Is this really in the Christian spirit?

I guess if you accept the idea that the Catholics don't have a Pope because there were times when there were false claimants to the rank, and the actual office holder had to live in a different city for a while, you may believe the United States has no current capital-- because it was at Philadelphia for some years, and now it's D.C., so D.C. can't possibly be the "real" capital. I guess nothing has changed since then...  Roll Eyes

Do you think you'll eventually make a rule that Catholics either shouldn't join this board, or should have to get used to deliberately being 'called out'? Adult Catholics are usually familiar with the Orthodox counters to their points of view. There is no need to rub their faces in them.

It's really a good thing that the people in my parish, the priest and the people in the congregation, are well-disposed toward me and treat me in a friendly way. Lately, I get the impression that if all I knew were this board, I wouldn't try to have any church home at all.
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« Reply #138 on: January 10, 2011, 12:15:07 AM »

Rafa, perhaps you can explain how those apply. Because I'm not seeing something that you are.

Why does the RCC allow excommunicated clergy from the Eastern orthodox church, Oriental orthodox church, and ACOE, to be received and deliver invalid sacraments to Roman Catholics in U-branches of the RCC ?

Because the RCC doesn't recognize the EO, OO, or ACOE to be part of the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church". The RCC believes the these churches hold most/all of the necessities of the faith and have valid apostolic succession (thus valid sacraments), but they are still in schism to the RCC.

The canons were to keep (think pre-schism) presbyters from hopping from one church that is in the communion (say Antioch) that excommunicates them, to another church (say Constantinople). If a RCC example, it would be like an excommunicated Melkite trying to join the Roman Church. The priest would need to be received back into the Church.

Therefore, being excommunicated from the ACOE is not an actual excommunication (in the eyes of the RCC).


The Assyrian Church of the East is NOT in communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

Um, yep. I said as much.

An Assyrian defrocked cleric cannot give out valid sacraments in any church once he was been defrocked. No vagante bishops.  PERIOD.

High five.

EDIT... this isn't even relevant. It's not even a valid comparison. A RCC laicized priest can't give sacraments in any other church either...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 12:27:47 AM by Azurestone » Logged


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« Reply #139 on: January 10, 2011, 12:20:24 AM »

Militantsparrow: thank you.
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« Reply #140 on: January 10, 2011, 12:37:33 AM »


So your basing your conversion or not ,upon what is being discussed on a religious forum Interesting.....shouldn't you be reading Orthodox Books ,and talking to a priest..... Grin




Thank you! It needed to be said and you said it far better than I could have.

There was a time when I felt drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy but threads like this (and a number of others) make me wonder why I was once so enamored.

I do still believe Eastern Orthodoxy is a beautiful thing, but the types of "arguments" being used on this thread only serve to bring out the ugly. It really upsets me.

What happened to the reasoned, loving, intelligent debates?



Just to break in for a moment-- how long is this going to go on? Do you have any other shtick?

We get it. You don't accept the claims to legitimacy of the present conception of the RCC papacy. I don't think you need a lot more pages to show that. Even in high school on the debate team, they didn't let you repeat your point over and over.

Do you think doing things like putting pictures of the Pope next to Hitler and calling them "German shepherds of one type or another" is really going to help you convince people of your ideas, or drive them away?

Is that sort of thing allowed on this board? The Hitler picture thing? At the very least, in terms of Internet debate, you just "Godwinned" the argument, i.e., made it so overdone that you lost. (And not to mention very insulting to someone whose Catholic grandfather's brothers fought in Normandy. But I'm sure you'll say that is 'beside the point.'  Roll Eyes )

To someone who grew up Catholic, this just looks like a waste of time, because you're not going to un-convince the Catholics of issues they themselves think were settled hundreds of years ago.

What is the purpose of this thread? It isn't going to clear up anything, it only repeats claims the Catholics do not accept from the Orthodox, and vice versa; and it surely hasn't increased anybody's good will. Is this really in the Christian spirit?

I guess if you accept the idea that the Catholics don't have a Pope because there were times when there were false claimants to the rank, and the actual office holder had to live in a different city for a while, you may believe the United States has no current capital-- because it was at Philadelphia for some years, and now it's D.C., so D.C. can't possibly be the "real" capital. I guess nothing has changed since then...  Roll Eyes

Do you think you'll eventually make a rule that Catholics either shouldn't join this board, or should have to get used to deliberately being 'called out'? Adult Catholics are usually familiar with the Orthodox counters to their points of view. There is no need to rub their faces in them.

It's really a good thing that the people in my parish, the priest and the people in the congregation, are well-disposed toward me and treat me in a friendly way. Lately, I get the impression that if all I knew were this board, I wouldn't try to have any church home at all.
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« Reply #141 on: January 10, 2011, 01:16:51 AM »

.....shouldn't you be reading Orthodox Books ,and talking to a priest..... Grin

I could say the same about you.




« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 01:17:25 AM by biro » Logged

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« Reply #142 on: January 10, 2011, 07:52:37 AM »


So your basing your conversion or not ,upon what is being discussed on a religious forum Interesting.....shouldn't you be reading Orthodox Books ,and talking to a priest..... Grin

You actually are the coolest guy in the room. Well done.
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« Reply #143 on: January 10, 2011, 12:28:33 PM »

Could someone please address this Orthodox teaching with respect to the assertions made under this topic heading for priests moving from one confession to another and broken or unbroken lines of succession?

M.


The Orthodox's popular stance may be to view ordination as authority granted by the Church only, but the Roman Catholics view ordination as a Grace given (similar to Baptism, Chrismation, etc) that once given, is not retractable. You cannot be unbaptised, nor can you be unordained. You can removed yourself from the Church, but the grace has been given.


Dear Azurestone,

The idea of an indelible mark of the Priesthood is a fairly recent Roman Catholic thing.

I prefer the following Orthodox understanding of the priesthood.  It is much more Catholic in its description of Holy Orders.  Also it seems to me that what you speak of as defrocking is what the Catholic Church speaks of as laicization.  However as the following description notes, Holy Orders establishes a relationship between the man and Christ that is ontological and I would imagine that those of this world cannot really touch that once it is done...so it seems to me from the article below.

http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/priesthood_symeon_thessalonica.htm

Quote
On the Priesthood

by St Symeon Archbishop of Thessalonica


What a Priest Is.

A priest, he says, has been deemed worthy to be a “minister” (διάκονος) of Christ and a “liturgist” (Λειτουργός), a “guardian” (παραστάτης) and a “beholder” (θεωρός) of the Mysteries, who draws near and communicates in them, and also a “preacher” (κήρυξ) of the Gospel. There are no veils any more interfering in this way, says St. Symeon, because a priest can behold the divine Light directly without any obstacle. He is no longer in need of a Seraph in order to receive the Mysteries, because he takes them with the tongs (λαβίς). Indeed, he himself is now the Seraph, by virtue of his consecration to the priesthood. He is the one that calls others to draw near to God, because he now holds in his hands the divine Mysteries and addresses the faithful, admonishing them to be attentive and offers them to Christ, and is actually the way and the guide of others towards the Light. Indeed, a priest is both a "Cherub," because he can see fully through the Mysteries the One, who sees all things, and a fire bearing "Seraph," because he holds the living Coal. Furthermore, a priest is a "throne," because through the Liturgy and the Communion, he has the One, who is present everywhere resting on himself; and he is also an angel, as God's servant and liturgist.

A priest is all the above, says St. Symeon, not in an imaginary way, but really and truly, because he does not serve the divine Mysteries "in a merely iconic or merely typical (symbolic) way," but truly serves the very Master, who is escorted in the heavens above by the immaterial powers. "Indeed, a priest does on earth what the immaterial powers do in heaven, because this is what the Designer of all was pleased with and wanted to establish, namely, that one and the same Liturgy should be observed both above and below."

Clearly, this description has two basic characteristics, both of which are tied to the Lord Jesus Christ. The first one is strictly connected with Christ's person, inasmuch as a priest belongs entirely to Christ through receiving his priestly identity from him, being constantly connected with him and having his reference always to him. The second characteristic is that a priest's service has a direct link and reference to Christ's work, which was accomplished for all creation, the realities above and the realities below. This close link of the priesthood with Christ's person and work is spelled out in the next paragraph, which explains how the priest's service truly reveals who Christ is and what he has done for the entire, created world in general and mankind in particular.

Christ's Work Extended Through the Priesthood.

The priest's service, says St. Symeon, reveals what Christ himself did for us when he appeared to the world as a man like us. This work can be described as follows:

Having procured his union with us, i.e. having willingly put on matter, Christ, who alone is immaterial, united himself with human beings, who are endowed with material senses. It is crucial here that He, who is by nature uncreated and without beginning, in his desire to be united with creation, was not united with the immaterial and creaturely nature of the angels — for angels were created out of nothing, immaterial and immortal by grace and participants of his Glory according to the measure of grace that was allotted to each of them. Rather, Christ put on our creaturely body and was united personally (ύποστατικώς) with us, without being separated from the Godhead and without being confused with the human nature, to which he transmitted the glories and benefits of the Godhead — "for in him," he says, "dwells the entire fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9).

Now, all this is related to the Priesthood, because just as Christ originally appeared to the world, according to his good pleasure, so now, he reveals himself through the sacred Mysteries (Sacraments) to the priests and through them to the world! Christ's amazing, divine work, which escapes the grasp of human reason, has been entrusted to the priest, who serves the Liturgy and initiates others to it. What a priest does is to reveal Christ again, i.e. to present him truly and fully to the world of his time through the sacred Mysteries, which he handles according to the divine ordinance. In other words, a priest represents Christ's perpetual and saving grace granted to the world through the celebration of Christ's mysteries.

Herein lies, according to St. Symeon, the great dignity of the priesthood, which is greater than that given to the angels. The Mysteries, which priests handle, have to do with the fact that the Master, who contains all things and is himself incomprehensible, becomes for us localized. Though he cannot be touched, human hands uphold him. Though he is invisible, he submits to the senses and become visible. Though he is inconceivable by the human mind, he is received by human beings through our humble and fallen nature, by means of the priesthood, which has been instituted by him. This is the miracle of miracles, that Christ appears through the Mysteries; that he is given, carried, communicated; that he indwells in us and brings us peace, expiation and sustenance.

This is, says St. Symeon, the most novel of all happenings, the greatest gift to humanity, the highest power, authority and grace. By this, the priests, who are human beings, made of soil and clay and resembling worms of the earth, appear as heavenly Authorities and Powers (Angels). Indeed, the power of the priesthood makes human beings greater than these heavenly hosts. Priests are partakers of a mightier creation through the administration of holy Baptism and the other Mysteries. They become fathers of sons of God, or fathers of those, who become gods by grace. They act in a way that cancels out the effects of sin and, thus, deliver the souls, unlock the gates of paradise, dissolve eternal bonds. Priests are empowered to perform divine acts, as God's collaborators for the salvation of human beings.

This being the case, it is obvious that priests have been granted the greatest charismas and gifts and, as such, are the greatest debtors to God. And it could not be otherwise, for they are compared to the heavenly Powers. These many-eyed orders of Angels behold God's glory all the time. They tremble and shudder at this sight, and yet, they are in greater awe when they observe the manifold Wisdom of God, which they come to know through the Church, as St. Paul says. These angelic orders are in awe, because of their creaturely nature and immeasurable goodness of God, but they are also amazed and fearful at the awesome, divine Mysteries performed by the priesthood.
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« Reply #144 on: January 10, 2011, 12:28:35 PM »


So your basing your conversion or not ,upon what is being discussed on a religious forum Interesting.....shouldn't you be reading Orthodox Books ,and talking to a priest..... Grin

You actually are the coolest guy in the room. Well done.

Trouble is there are Orthodox priests and books who sound just like this Forum...and worse. 

Sooooo.....which Orthodoxy did we fall in love with? 

I know I can't remember any more.

M.
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« Reply #145 on: January 10, 2011, 12:28:35 PM »


So, say, a German shepherd of one type or another

is still a shepherd of a flock.

I think that the instinctive response of some of the participants on this thread, to this particularly and intentionally disturbing yet typical presentation from Isa,  is more accurate that to hide it behind Goodwin's Law. 

In fact the comparison of Pope Benedict to Hitler is antithetical to the purpose of Goodwin's Law since Goodwin propose his analysis of these mimetic devices to encourage people NOT to use Hitler and the third German Reich in inappropriate comparisons, so as not to degrade the horror that was that man and that government.
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« Reply #146 on: January 10, 2011, 12:30:12 PM »

And now that his has degenerated into posts of a personal nature not even tangential to the OP, I'm locking this.  

« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 12:30:45 PM by Schultz » Logged

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