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TryingtoConvert
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« Reply #225 on: January 11, 2011, 08:54:57 PM »

Here's the Reader's Digest version of the past three pages of the thread:

TtC: Because I can show that the story of Gilgamesh and Noah have similarities, the Bible's not 100% historically accurate.

Orthodox Christians: Even were that true, we never claimed the Bible was 100% historically accurate.

TtC: Yes, but you're wrong, because there are similarities between Zeus and the Titans and David and Goliath.

Orthodox Christians: We still haven't claimed the Bible was 100% historically accurate.

TtC:  Yes, but you're wrong because Samson is pretty much Heracles.

I'm reminded of one of those battery-operated walking robot toys when it gets to a wall.

So you're just going to pick and choose what is historically accurate just to fit into that pile of fantasy you call the Bible? Ok then.
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« Reply #226 on: January 11, 2011, 09:04:59 PM »

Here's the Reader's Digest version of the past three pages of the thread:

TtC: Because I can show that the story of Gilgamesh and Noah have similarities, the Bible's not 100% historically accurate.

Orthodox Christians: Even were that true, we never claimed the Bible was 100% historically accurate.

TtC: Yes, but you're wrong, because there are similarities between Zeus and the Titans and David and Goliath.

Orthodox Christians: We still haven't claimed the Bible was 100% historically accurate.

TtC:  Yes, but you're wrong because Samson is pretty much Heracles.

I'm reminded of one of those battery-operated walking robot toys when it gets to a wall.

So you're just going to pick and choose what is historically accurate just to fit into that pile of fantasy you call the Bible? Ok then.

No, I'm going to recognize that this thing we call the "Bible" is made up of (in the neighborhood of) 77 different books of various literary genres, some of which relates historical details.
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« Reply #227 on: January 11, 2011, 09:08:14 PM »

Confucius say: When a person analyzes religion from the outside without immersing oneself within the rituals, it is as useful as trying to see through a brick wall.
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« Reply #228 on: January 11, 2011, 09:08:58 PM »

Here's the Reader's Digest version of the past three pages of the thread:

TtC: Because I can show that the story of Gilgamesh and Noah have similarities, the Bible's not 100% historically accurate.

Orthodox Christians: Even were that true, we never claimed the Bible was 100% historically accurate.

TtC: Yes, but you're wrong, because there are similarities between Zeus and the Titans and David and Goliath.

Orthodox Christians: We still haven't claimed the Bible was 100% historically accurate.

TtC:  Yes, but you're wrong because Samson is pretty much Heracles.

I'm reminded of one of those battery-operated walking robot toys when it gets to a wall.

So you're just going to pick and choose what is historically accurate just to fit into that pile of fantasy you call the Bible? Ok then.

No, I'm going to recognize that this thing we call the "Bible" is made up of (in the neighborhood of) 77 different books of various literary genres, some of which relates historical details.

And what about the GOD in the OT? Hmm? Does that God just not exist, always alluding HIS very people (the Jews)?
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« Reply #229 on: January 11, 2011, 09:09:47 PM »

Confucius say: When a person analyzes religion from the outside without immersing oneself within the rituals, it is as useful as trying to see through a brick wall.
You act like I never was a Christian. Guess what I was, and it's the biggest bambazoole concoted by a bunch of charltans the world has ever seen.
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« Reply #230 on: January 11, 2011, 09:11:43 PM »

BTW your Church was made by MEN, all the traditions are formed by MEN. All the rituals are done by MEN. What Jesus said "Oh you gotta walk down this aisle just like that, make sure you make an altar of myself when I die, also make sure you give a cup of my blood and body to everyone here"

Come on.
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« Reply #231 on: January 11, 2011, 09:27:18 PM »

Who's "they"?  Orthodox theologians that you've obviously never read?  Anyway, this actually proves my point, they don't really "care" because they don't have to.  Nothing is hingeing on the Bible's authenticity for Orthodoxy.
It does. For one the Ark story is completely taken from Gilgamesh. Jesus Story is hardly original (take the time to actually study it, and his rivals). You really seem unable to deal with how fabricated the bible really is. The bible's authenticity is only authentic to where you can establish that it was written by man. It's Authenticity stops there son. The Orthodoxy does not explain the bible's origins in detail, and makes quite a bit of assumptions.

Let's just explore the problems with calling the bible a "historical document of truth". Let's start with inconsistency in Genesis alone, and why it's all fabricated nonsense by some moron that didn't know anything about the real world or how it really came to be.

To save myself time, I am going to quote from another source even though I had written my own articles here on Genesis:

---
In the first chapter of Genesis, there is a legendary account of the creation. These legends contradict each other at every point. In the first, the earth is represented as coming into existence completely enveloped in water. In the second, it is represented as being originally a dry plain, lacking even moisture. 1 (Gen. 1:2, 9; 2:6) According to the first account, all the fowls of the air were created out of water-
Quote
-"and God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth"
...
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and the waters brought forth "every winged fowl after his kind." But according to the second account, the fowls were created out of the ground "
And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air." 2 (Gen. 1:20, 21; 2:19) The first story has it that the trees were made on the third day, and that man was formed three days later. The second story declares that man was made before the trees. 3 (Gen.1:12,13, 26-31; 2:7,9.)

If the first account is true, the fowls were created before man. If the second is correct, they were created after man. 4 (Gen. 1:21, 27 2:7,19) The first tale distinctly teaches that man was created after all the beasts. The second is as positive in its assurance that man was formed before the beasts. 5 (Gen. 1:25,27; 2:7,19) In the first account, we are told that man and woman were created at the same time, by one act of creation, and after all other things had been made. In the second story, it is explained that the man was made alone; that the woman was not formed until the man had failed to find a wife among the beasts, and that the making of the man, before the beasts, and of the woman, after the beasts, constituted two distinct acts of creation. 6 (Gen. 1:25,27; 2:7, 20-22) According to the first account, the man and the woman were given the freedom of the world, and were told to subdue it. According to the second, they were confined within the narrow limits of a garden.
-----

And that is just a few examples with concerning the Bibles Authenticity.

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Am I trained or am I self-inventing?  Or did I train myself?
You seem to be both.. I know I was when I was a Christian. I don't preach nonsense anymore, nor do I self-invent my own interpretations of the bible and then preach it like you do.

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I'm sorry, did I say this somewhere?  I'm a prime example because, what, I've been appealing to the accuracy of the Bible for something?  Where and when?
So you appeal to the accuracy of the bible without actually questioning and examining it's accuracy correct? You might want to work on that accuracy problem with the bible. And even if those who wrote the bible managed to get it right, it still wouldn't give the bible authenticity!

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Which source from "The Orthodoxy" are you referring to?
To many, the origin of the Bible can be summed-up as follows: "A mere translation of a translation of an interpretation of an oral tradition" This is essentially true. Translations such as the King James Version are derived from existing copies of ancient manuscripts such as the Hebrew Masoretic Text, or the Textus Receptus , and are not translations of texts translated from other interpretations.

The other problem you have is this:

The Bible is God's letter to humanity collected into 66 books written by 40 divinely inspired writers over a period of over 1,600 years.[/u][/i] So it's pretty dang funny when you read the bible. The bible itself is a assumed as GOD's Word! Please feel free to authenticate that![/U][/I] .. What's worse, religious people try to authenticate it through vague prophecies. Talk about gullible! It get's worse when many of the prophecies fail to come to be (such as many prophecies surrounding Jesus's own birth), or when they proclaim the obvious like the end of the world!.

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Surely you don't have documents younger than the Bible in mind?  If you have more ancient sources that have parallels with the Bible, I'd love to read them.
Go read up on other religions far more ancient than Christianity son! Hello! Even the nativity scenes are similar to that of Egyptian nativity scenes (as a small example).

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I'm not sure how it works but I assure you, my conversion from atheism wasn't because I somehow got brainwashed as an adult.  If anyone comes across as a rabid, fundamentalist with hints of having been brainwashed, I think it's you my friend.
Then you won't be afraid to read some books on the mechanics of brainwashing and subliminal programming and then actually re-read the bible or observe how religion operates on a daily basis. If you really are so sure about your position you won't have much to worry about.

You're attributing to my position beliefs which I have never claimed to hold.  Surely you know that you're doing this, and it really makes me wonder which one of is so unsure of their position!

TryingtoConvert, I'm going to use the plainest language I can muster, ok?  I'll say it slowly too:  Nothing. In. Orthodoxy. Hinges. On. The. Reliability. Of. The. Bible.

The authenticity of the Bible is not what Orthodox appeal to for their tradition.  Since you enjoy accusing me of making things up, I'll quote perhaps the most popular Orthodox theologian of our time, Fr. Thomas Hopko:

"At this point, allow me to reiterate that Orthodoxy is in no way based on the Bible. Nor is it based or derived from a set of oral teachings running parallel to the Bible."

I'm genuinely sorry you spent so much time typing out a vendetta against the Bible only to be met with mild amusement, but that's all you're going to find here.  Attack it all you want, it in no way weakens our position.
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« Reply #232 on: January 11, 2011, 09:29:01 PM »

Confucius say: When a person analyzes religion from the outside without immersing oneself within the rituals, it is as useful as trying to see through a brick wall.
You act like I never was a Christian. Guess what I was, and it's the biggest bambazoole concoted by a bunch of charltans the world has ever seen.

It's a bummer that this is the best atheism has to offer.
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« Reply #233 on: January 11, 2011, 09:32:55 PM »

Confucius say: When a person analyzes religion from the outside without immersing oneself within the rituals, it is as useful as trying to see through a brick wall.
You act like I never was a Christian. Guess what I was, and it's the biggest bambazoole concoted by a bunch of charltans the world has ever seen.

Not all "Christianity" is the same.
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« Reply #234 on: January 11, 2011, 09:41:17 PM »

Atheism today is a sad state of affairs.
Riiiigggght... what exactly are you expecting it to be?

Challenging?  Intellectually stimulating?  Reasonable?  Sincere?  Articulate?  Contemporary? Deep? Pick one.

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Who are these old glory days atheists we should use as role models?

Nietzsche?
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« Reply #235 on: January 11, 2011, 09:42:37 PM »

Confucius say: When a person analyzes religion from the outside without immersing oneself within the rituals, it is as useful as trying to see through a brick wall.
You act like I never was a Christian. Guess what I was, and it's the biggest bambazoole concoted by a bunch of charltans the world has ever seen.

Not all "Christianity" is the same.

It has to be for his attacks to work.  And you can tell he's getting frustrated that they aren't working on us because he's gone from somewhat coherent arguments to "You guys are stupid idiots!"  Classic.
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« Reply #236 on: January 11, 2011, 09:45:35 PM »

Confucius say: When a person analyzes religion from the outside without immersing oneself within the rituals, it is as useful as trying to see through a brick wall.
You act like I never was a Christian. Guess what I was, and it's the biggest bambazoole concoted by a bunch of charltans the world has ever seen.

Not all "Christianity" is the same.

it seems that whatever "Christianity" he used to believe in involved a pantheistic or physical God who used existing information to react and create the world, who has a place, and must be bound to time.  Apparently, what he calls "Christianity" he used to believe in and lead to his atheism.  Now, he can't imagine how we believe what we believe thinking he knows more about the Bible and Christianity that we do.  He pretty much has proven if he was some sort of believer, he certainly didn't believe what real Christians believe.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 09:46:28 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #237 on: January 11, 2011, 09:54:41 PM »

Nietzsche?

Really? I've heard a number of people (including Christians) say this over the years, but I don't really understand why. I admit that I haven't read a ton of Nietzsche (Thus Spake Zarathustra, Twilight of the Idols, The Antichrist, and a few letters),  but I seem to remember thinking "this is weak" when I read his critiques of Christianity. Now whether some of his criticisms of the Christianity of Protestant Europe/America of his time were more valid, I don't know.
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« Reply #238 on: January 11, 2011, 09:55:05 PM »

So I read up on judgment, so if you take the blood and body of chirst as the remission of sins, then all your previous actions wont be judged at the final judgment?

so what your on your deathbed, repent your sins and hey your free in heaven! Sucks for the person who gets in a car accident who never gets the chance, I guess they have to deal with burning in hell
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« Reply #239 on: January 11, 2011, 09:56:00 PM »

So I read up on judgment, so if you take the blood and body of chirst as the remission of sins, then all your previous actions wont be judged at the final judgment?

so what your on your deathbed, repent your sins and hey your free in heaven! Sucks for the person who gets in a car accident who never gets the chance, I guess they have to deal with burning in hell

Jack Chick tracts don't count as reading.  Wink
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« Reply #240 on: January 11, 2011, 09:56:50 PM »

Confucius say: When a person analyzes religion from the outside without immersing oneself within the rituals, it is as useful as trying to see through a brick wall.
You act like I never was a Christian. Guess what I was, and it's the biggest bambazoole concoted by a bunch of charltans the world has ever seen.

Not all "Christianity" is the same.

it seems that whatever "Christianity" he used to believe in involved a pantheistic or physical God who used existing information to react and create the world, who has a place, and must be bound to time.  Apparently, what he calls "Christianity" he used to believe in and lead to his atheism.  Now, he can't imagine how we believe what we believe thinking he knows more about the Bible and Christianity that we do.  He pretty much has proven if he was some sort of believer, he certainly didn't believe what real Christians believe.

Stop with the "real Christian" arrogance.
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« Reply #241 on: January 11, 2011, 09:58:20 PM »

Confucius say: When a person analyzes religion from the outside without immersing oneself within the rituals, it is as useful as trying to see through a brick wall.
You act like I never was a Christian. Guess what I was, and it's the biggest bambazoole concoted by a bunch of charltans the world has ever seen.

Not all "Christianity" is the same.

it seems that whatever "Christianity" he used to believe in involved a pantheistic or physical God who used existing information to react and create the world, who has a place, and must be bound to time.  Apparently, what he calls "Christianity" he used to believe in and lead to his atheism.  Now, he can't imagine how we believe what we believe thinking he knows more about the Bible and Christianity that we do.  He pretty much has proven if he was some sort of believer, he certainly didn't believe what real Christians believe.

Stop with the "real Christian" arrogance.

He's hardly being arrogant.
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« Reply #242 on: January 11, 2011, 09:58:48 PM »

Further you have yet to denounce any of the myths associated with Christianity.

NT has a ton of paganism mixed in.
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« Reply #243 on: January 11, 2011, 09:59:44 PM »

Confucius say: When a person analyzes religion from the outside without immersing oneself within the rituals, it is as useful as trying to see through a brick wall.
You act like I never was a Christian. Guess what I was, and it's the biggest bambazoole concoted by a bunch of charltans the world has ever seen.

Not all "Christianity" is the same.

it seems that whatever "Christianity" he used to believe in involved a pantheistic or physical God who used existing information to react and create the world, who has a place, and must be bound to time.  Apparently, what he calls "Christianity" he used to believe in and lead to his atheism.  Now, he can't imagine how we believe what we believe thinking he knows more about the Bible and Christianity that we do.  He pretty much has proven if he was some sort of believer, he certainly didn't believe what real Christians believe.

Stop with the "real Christian" arrogance.

He's hardly being arrogant.

So the other 2 billion outside your church arent christians? Says who? YOU?
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« Reply #244 on: January 11, 2011, 10:04:59 PM »

Confucius say: When a person analyzes religion from the outside without immersing oneself within the rituals, it is as useful as trying to see through a brick wall.
You act like I never was a Christian. Guess what I was, and it's the biggest bambazoole concoted by a bunch of charltans the world has ever seen.

Not all "Christianity" is the same.

it seems that whatever "Christianity" he used to believe in involved a pantheistic or physical God who used existing information to react and create the world, who has a place, and must be bound to time.  Apparently, what he calls "Christianity" he used to believe in and lead to his atheism.  Now, he can't imagine how we believe what we believe thinking he knows more about the Bible and Christianity that we do.  He pretty much has proven if he was some sort of believer, he certainly didn't believe what real Christians believe.

Stop with the "real Christian" arrogance.

He's hardly being arrogant.

So the other 2 billion outside your church arent christians? Says who? YOU?

The "2 billion" outside our Church didn't even believe what you believed.  You were never a "Christian" TTC (in the broadest possible sense of the world).  You were probably just as "Christian" as a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness.  That's not arrogance.  That's reality.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 10:09:05 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #245 on: January 11, 2011, 10:05:07 PM »

Your ignorance of Orthodoxy shows more and more with every post, TtC.  It's truly puzzling.

What's most interesting though is that the "arguments" you forward against "Christianity" have been seen for what they are:  arguments against a nominal Christianity that Orthodox Christians have never adhered to.

I understand why you're getting frustrated.
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« Reply #246 on: January 11, 2011, 10:06:54 PM »

Further you have yet to denounce any of the myths associated with Christianity.

NT has a ton of paganism mixed in.

Coming from someone who bases their worldview on logic and observable phenomena, this is a remarkably baseless assertion.
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« Reply #247 on: January 11, 2011, 10:08:26 PM »

Further you have yet to denounce any of the myths associated with Christianity.

NT has a ton of paganism mixed in.

Still waiting on those sources that are more ancient than the Bible and the necessary evidence of which one influenced the other.  And it's just out of curiosity's sake, because it wouldn't make a difference anyway.  One would not be surprised for common elements to be found in the world's religions.
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« Reply #248 on: January 11, 2011, 10:09:04 PM »

Care to explain why God punished all of mankind just on two people's decisions to disobey God? I mean really none of us had a chance
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« Reply #249 on: January 11, 2011, 10:09:51 PM »

Should I point out examples in the bible itself then? LOL.. There are plenty examples I can go by to show it's a cult. Hardly a poor historian either because the 300 years of burning wasn't a magical fairy tale, neither were the Crusades.

Funny you should bring those up, as they weren't perpetrated by our church.  Again, "poor historian," and linguist, to boot.  Why must you be provided with even the most basic of information?  From a sociological perspective, Orthodox Christianity, and Christianity in general, are not "cults."   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult  It's Sociology 101, man - go back to school.

Really, please verify the core to your bible as being 100% truth. Ahh, you can't can you! GJ!

Straw man; Orthodox Christians don't bring 100% into the equation when comparing the Bible to history.  Your argument - laughable as it is - is that 99% of the bible is false, a point I would contend is worthy of ridicule, and which you surely need to prove rather than assert.

Incorrect, it's better to know a lie than to blindly follow one. And love has nothing to do with this discussion.

There are no blind men (well, very very few, thanks to speech-to-text technology) on an internet discussion, and there's no lie presented by Orthodoxy.  And, since we're talking about faith, Love has everything to do with the discussion.

Like the regurgitating circular arguments made by posters here?

I've yet to see a circular argument in here; but I should admit that your tired posts have bored me enough to "change the channel" a number of times.

And sorry, nothing I've stated has been debunked by the most radical Biblical critics. Nice try though.

"We know where the Authors of the bible got their inspirations from, and that was from other religions and folklore/beliefs. It's entirely a cut and paste form of creative writing to which is a text book example of servitude to power."

Let me give you a basic one, since I have neither the time nor inclination to point out to you the volumes of work on the subject: critics have been claiming that Christmas on Dec 25th was in order to take over a pagan holiday; historians have demonstrated that the celebration of Christmas was on Dec 25th at least 1 century before the celebration for Sol Invictus was added to the Winter Solstice.  Christmas has been a big attack point for those who wish to ridicule Christianity; while the "spirit of the holiday" may have been taken over by commercial interests for many people, the date has been "tradition" far longer than pagan celebrations during that period of time, and indeed has likely been a magnet drawing other attention to that season (e.g. the aforementioned feast for Sol Invictus' rise, the over-emphasis on Hannukah, which isn't even a top-5 feast for Judaism, etc.).

Im not rabid, I'm being very direct with you. And any animosity shown here in this thread is due to your circular self-invented avoiding arguments, or preaching. Not once have you actually addressed any points made here with any sort of honesty. When you can manage to drop the act and actually engage a discussion without being dishonest, you let me know.

There should be no animosity; you bring anger because you don't fully understand what you're arguing against, but you're dead-set against it regardless of the arguments.  If you spent your "Christian" life as a Protestant, you have no clue what historical Christianity is about; even if you were RC, you've got no concept of where the Orthodox Christians are coming from.

Confucius say: When a person analyzes religion from the outside without immersing oneself within the rituals, it is as useful as trying to see through a brick wall.
You act like I never was a Christian. Guess what I was, and it's the biggest bambazoole concoted by a bunch of charltans the world has ever seen.

You keep claiming you were a Christian; I'm sure your faith was well-informed and well-studied. *chuckle*

People escaped Jonestown when folks started dying.  Yet, thousands and thousands have died for the Christian faith, including over 80 eye-witnesses to what you would have us believe is a hoax (the Resurrection).  Would each of those people die for a lie - not just die, die painful, drawn-out deaths?  Crucifixion, stoning, etc. - that's not lethal injection, or beheading.  Their Christian faith led them to take care of society's undesirables, led them to take care of the extremely ill and poor, and led them to stand firm when others wished to persecute them out of existence.  Say what you will of those who call themselves Christian but are so only in name; there have been many millions of Christians who have raised humanity from barbarism because of the convictions of their faith.  We can go back to our pre-Christian society, if you wish: exposing our undesired children until they die, killing all our political dissidents and prisoners, raping our captives, neglecting our widows, enslaving our orphans, etc.  Of course, since you hold a philosophical position contrary to the majority (i.e. atheism), you'd be among the first on the hemlock list...
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« Reply #250 on: January 11, 2011, 10:10:12 PM »

Further you have yet to denounce any of the myths associated with Christianity.

NT has a ton of paganism mixed in.

Still waiting on those sources that are more ancient than the Bible and the necessary evidence of which one influenced the other.  And it's just out of curiosity's sake, because it wouldn't make a difference anyway.  One would not be surprised for common elements to be found in the world's religions.

You could start here on your fabled Resurrection. Look at the different accounts of the Ressurection in your own Bible! Paul differs theologically versus the Gospel works
http://www.amazon.com/Doubting-Jesus-Resurrection-Happened-Black/dp/0982552807/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1
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« Reply #251 on: January 11, 2011, 10:11:02 PM »

Care to explain why God punished all of mankind just on two people's decisions to disobey God? I mean really none of us had a chance

I bet we would, if it was an Orthodox belief that God did "punish" us for this.
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« Reply #252 on: January 11, 2011, 10:12:58 PM »

Further you have yet to denounce any of the myths associated with Christianity.

NT has a ton of paganism mixed in.

Still waiting on those sources that are more ancient than the Bible and the necessary evidence of which one influenced the other.  And it's just out of curiosity's sake, because it wouldn't make a difference anyway.  One would not be surprised for common elements to be found in the world's religions.

You could start here on your fabled Resurrection. Look at the different accounts of the Ressurection in your own Bible! Paul differs theologically versus the Gospel works
http://www.amazon.com/Doubting-Jesus-Resurrection-Happened-Black/dp/0982552807/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1

An Amazon product page is not a source. Nobody is going to buy a book and spend their time reading the thing because you can't source your arguments appropriately.
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« Reply #253 on: January 11, 2011, 10:13:34 PM »

Care to explain why God punished all of mankind just on two people's decisions to disobey God? I mean really none of us had a chance

I bet we would, if it was an Orthodox belief that God did "punish" us for this.

Look outside your window, murders, thefts, wars, genocides, etc etc. Why would God allow this to occur?
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« Reply #254 on: January 11, 2011, 10:16:02 PM »

BTW your Church was made by MEN, all the traditions are formed by MEN. All the rituals are done by MEN. What Jesus said "Oh you gotta walk down this aisle just like that, make sure you make an altar of myself when I die, also make sure you give a cup of my blood and body to everyone here"

Come on.

This board would avoid this.
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« Reply #255 on: January 11, 2011, 10:16:12 PM »

Care to explain why God punished all of mankind just on two people's decisions to disobey God? I mean really none of us had a chance

What they passed on, in effect, is a mental illness. That is, a mental illness of pride. It's something we are all born with, but something we can all resist with God's help. Without God we are prone to it, with God we can resist it.

So Adam and Eve separated us from God. When they had children, they too were still separated from God, like they were. The separation is spiritual, as well as physical. They can pass on grace they don't possess.
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« Reply #256 on: January 11, 2011, 10:17:31 PM »

Care to explain why God punished all of mankind just on two people's decisions to disobey God? I mean really none of us had a chance

I'm glad you've asked, rather than assuming (although you're attempting to lead with the question).  God didn't punish anyone; from the Christian POV He gave us (amongst others) 3 great gifts: life, intellect, and free will.  But in order for someone to have "free will," they must be given a choice with at least two outcomes.  So Adam & Eve were given that choice, in order to exercise the gift: life or death.  They chose death (after being tricked into believing it to be life), and suffered the consequences; death entered the world as a result of it being introduced in the first place - it did not exist before then (and it does not, strictly speaking, "exist" now, either, but that's a subject for a separate philosophical discussion).

So death wasn't a punishment, but an option, and we chose it.  In order to preserve the free will of man, God became one of us in the person of the Son, in order to free us from the finality of death and to give us instead new life in Him.
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« Reply #257 on: January 11, 2011, 10:17:45 PM »

Care to explain why God punished all of mankind just on two people's decisions to disobey God? I mean really none of us had a chance

I bet we would, if it was an Orthodox belief that God did "punish" us for this.

Look outside your window, murders, thefts, wars, genocides, etc etc. Why would God allow this to occur?

Did you read my post 212?
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« Reply #258 on: January 11, 2011, 10:18:16 PM »

BTW your Church was made by MEN, all the traditions are formed by MEN. All the rituals are done by MEN. What Jesus said "Oh you gotta walk down this aisle just like that, make sure you make an altar of myself when I die, also make sure you give a cup of my blood and body to everyone here"

Come on.

This board would avoid this.

Because there isn't anything worth refuting there. Just a childish, baseless assertion.
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« Reply #259 on: January 11, 2011, 10:18:31 PM »

TtC:  *insert Protestant belief*

Orthodox: We don't believe that.

TtC:  *insert Protestant belief*

Orthodox:  We don't believe that.

TtC:  Yeah, but, let me tell you why it's stupid and why that means God doesn't exist.

Orthodox:  We don't believe that.

TtC:  I know what you believe more than you do, allow me to explain by giving examples of things I know you believe.

Orthodox:  We don't believe that.

TtC:  Yes you do.  It's stupid.

Orthodox:  We don't believe that.

TtC:  I am the victor here, because I've dismantled and mocked beliefs that I know you hold.

Orthodox:  We don't believe those things, but thanks for trying.
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« Reply #260 on: January 11, 2011, 10:19:05 PM »

BTW your Church was made by MEN, all the traditions are formed by MEN. All the rituals are done by MEN. What Jesus said "Oh you gotta walk down this aisle just like that, make sure you make an altar of myself when I die, also make sure you give a cup of my blood and body to everyone here"

Come on.
This board would avoid this.

Avoid what? Your non-argument?  Your puerile rant?  There's nothing of substance here to "avoid."
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« Reply #261 on: January 11, 2011, 10:20:13 PM »

Ok how come God requires faith? What about the Christian that denounces his beliefs because someone convinced him of something better, will your god exhibit mercy on that person?
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« Reply #262 on: January 11, 2011, 10:21:16 PM »

Ok how come God requires faith? What about the Christian that denounces his beliefs because someone convinced him of something better, will your god exhibit mercy on that person?

I thought you knew what Orthodox believed?
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« Reply #263 on: January 11, 2011, 10:22:12 PM »

BTW your Church was made by MEN, all the traditions are formed by MEN. All the rituals are done by MEN. What Jesus said "Oh you gotta walk down this aisle just like that, make sure you make an altar of myself when I die, also make sure you give a cup of my blood and body to everyone here"

Come on.
This board would avoid this.

Avoid what? Your non-argument?  Your puerile rant?  There's nothing of substance here to "avoid."

Uhhhhh for example the Greek Orthodox Church is a denomination, by definition. They've taken a name after themselves, one that doesn't exist in the New Testament, by the way. As to keeping the doctrine of the Bible, the Greek Orthodox Church places it's tradition on the same level as scripture itself. That is also antithetical to the Gospel. If the traditions of men were genuinely on par with scripture then the Pharisees claims against Christ would have been legitimate and Christianity would have been a heretical faith. It just doesn't work that way, as the Lord himself pointed out many times. As to the source of true Christian doctrine, the Holy Spirit is that source. The letters were written to existent churches (and individuals), but often they contained admonishments for misbehavior in those churches. They weren't a rubber stamp on whatever churches were choosing to do. You can claim your denomination has the authority to make it up as they go, but that is simply not in line with what God the Holy Spirit has revealed to the catholic Church in scripture.
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« Reply #264 on: January 11, 2011, 10:25:25 PM »

Ok how come God requires faith? What about the Christian that denounces his beliefs because someone convinced him of something better, will your god exhibit mercy on that person?


What does faith really mean in the end? Accepting His order to the universe. Its your choice to accept Him or not. He will always "call" to you, but you're free to ignore Him.
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« Reply #265 on: January 11, 2011, 10:29:57 PM »

BTW your Church was made by MEN, all the traditions are formed by MEN. All the rituals are done by MEN. What Jesus said "Oh you gotta walk down this aisle just like that, make sure you make an altar of myself when I die, also make sure you give a cup of my blood and body to everyone here"

Come on.
This board would avoid this.

Avoid what? Your non-argument?  Your puerile rant?  There's nothing of substance here to "avoid."

Uhhhhh for example the Greek Orthodox Church is a denomination, by definition. They've taken a name after themselves, one that doesn't exist in the New Testament, by the way. As to keeping the doctrine of the Bible, the Greek Orthodox Church places it's tradition on the same level as scripture itself. That is also antithetical to the Gospel. If the traditions of men were genuinely on par with scripture then the Pharisees claims against Christ would have been legitimate and Christianity would have been a heretical faith. It just doesn't work that way, as the Lord himself pointed out many times. As to the source of true Christian doctrine, the Holy Spirit is that source. The letters were written to existent churches (and individuals), but often they contained admonishments for misbehavior in those churches. They weren't a rubber stamp on whatever churches were choosing to do. You can claim your denomination has the authority to make it up as they go, but that is simply not in line with what God the Holy Spirit has revealed to the catholic Church in scripture.

Actually, scripture is a product of Tradition, not seperate.

Separately, the Pharisees were denounced for being so legalistic, they were never capable of seeing the meaning behind the rules. They weren't listening to God.
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« Reply #266 on: January 11, 2011, 10:32:16 PM »

BTW your Church was made by MEN, all the traditions are formed by MEN. All the rituals are done by MEN. What Jesus said "Oh you gotta walk down this aisle just like that, make sure you make an altar of myself when I die, also make sure you give a cup of my blood and body to everyone here"

Come on.
This board would avoid this.

Avoid what? Your non-argument?  Your puerile rant?  There's nothing of substance here to "avoid."

Uhhhhh for example the Greek Orthodox Church is a denomination, by definition. They've taken a name after themselves, one that doesn't exist in the New Testament, by the way.

Not too shocking, since English hadn't developed yet.

As to keeping the doctrine of the Bible, the Greek Orthodox Church places it's tradition on the same level as scripture itself. That is also antithetical to the Gospel.

No, it isn't.

If the traditions of men were genuinely on par with scripture then the Pharisees claims against Christ would have been legitimate and Christianity would have been a heretical faith.

Are we talking about the traditions of men, or Holy Tradition? I'd love an explanation for how the traditions of Jewish Pharisees have any bearing on Holy Tradition.

It just doesn't work that way, as the Lord himself pointed out many times. As to the source of true Christian doctrine, the Holy Spirit is that source.

Yay! That way we can all claim to have been taught by the Holy Spirit, and be our own little infallible Popes. Brilliant idea.

The letters were written to existent churches (and individuals), but often they contained admonishments for misbehavior in those churches. They weren't a rubber stamp on whatever churches were choosing to do. You can claim your denomination has the authority to make it up as they go, but that is simply not in line with what God the Holy Spirit has revealed to the catholic Church in scripture.

Great, and you know which letters make up Scripture.... how, exactly?
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« Reply #267 on: January 11, 2011, 10:33:51 PM »

for example the Greek Orthodox Church is a denomination, by definition.

Well, at least we've moved from "cult" to "denomination."  Seems you've found the time to do some work in the dictionary.  It's not the "Greek Orthodox Church," for the purpose of this conversation; that's a convenient title used for modern reference.  We're the Christian Church, the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."  If you're going to argue semantics (as you do below), you might try using them on the correct title.

They've taken a name after themselves, one that doesn't exist in the New Testament, by the way.

We've been given a name, by history, by circumstances, and by those who have attempted to usurp our rightful name.

As to keeping the doctrine of the Bible, the Greek Orthodox Church places it's tradition on the same level as scripture itself. That is also antithetical to the Gospel.

No, that's not quite correct; we believe that, since the scripture came from the Church, that there is no dichotomy.  And I know you must have read the multiple scriptural passages that refer to keeping traditions - I don't know why I would need to repeat them to you again, since you were a "Christian" beforehand.

If the traditions of men were genuinely on par with scripture then the Pharisees claims against Christ would have been legitimate and Christianity would have been a heretical faith.

The Pharisaical claims against Christ were (a) claimed to be biblical, and (b) were founded on incorrect interpretation of scripture, which is why Jesus corrected their understanding (and they chose to reject His interpretation).

It just doesn't work that way, as the Lord himself pointed out many times.

Oh?  He said that the Sabbath is for man and not man for the Sabbath.  He said that the woman should be healed on the Sabbath even though it was against their interpretation of the law.  He pointed out that some folks put their own spin on scripture - that scripture needed context.

As to the source of true Christian doctrine, the Holy Spirit is that source. The letters were written to existent churches (and individuals), but often they contained admonishments for misbehavior in those churches. They weren't a rubber stamp on whatever churches were choosing to do. You can claim your denomination has the authority to make it up as they go, but that is simply not in line with what God the Holy Spirit has revealed to the catholic Church in scripture.

You don't have a clue what the Holy Spirit revealed to the Church in scripture.  But you are correct - the Spirit is the source of true Christian doctrine.  And the Spirit didn't finish it's work at 100AD/CE.
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« Reply #268 on: January 11, 2011, 10:34:43 PM »

Actually, scripture is a product of Tradition, not seperate.

This is a problem because Paul wrote that 1 Cor. 15:50-56 that “flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But other letters of "Paul" (or whoever) say completely different things. In Collosians "Paul" gives a view that the Resurrection was a heavenly event which broke the powers of the heavenly archons and elemental spirits of the universe...this is a Gnostic idea/reading and almost certainly not by the same author who wrote 1st Corinthians.

Why does your book have so many contradictions with itself if it's grounded in Tradition?
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« Reply #269 on: January 11, 2011, 10:36:03 PM »

Actually, scripture is a product of Tradition, not seperate.

This is a problem because Paul wrote that 1 Cor. 15:50-56 that “flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But other letters of "Paul" (or whoever) say completely different things. In Collosians "Paul" gives a view that the Resurrection was a heavenly event which broke the powers of the heavenly archons and elemental spirits of the universe...this is a Gnostic idea/reading and almost certainly not by the same author who wrote 1st Corinthians.

Why does your book have so many contradictions with itself if it's grounded in Tradition?

This is why Sola Scriptura doesn't make sense, by-the-by.
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