OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 21, 2014, 08:04:05 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Criticism of Atheism  (Read 14833 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,149


Hello for now, my friend


« Reply #180 on: January 10, 2011, 02:27:38 AM »

Orthodoxy is an historical movement out of which the Bible came, not the other way around.  The New Testament is describing something that is already taking place and is written to churches that already exist.  It is not the source.

You can point out errors all day long, find every apparent logical inconsistency, every scientific fact it got wrong and you won't hear much from Orthodox Christians besides, "That's interesting."  Nothing is riding on the Bible for us.

I agree with you. However, it's interesting that the results of this poll on the subject were mixed, with nearly half the people voting considering the Bible infallible but not inerrant.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin

Hey, so I'm in a pop-alt-punk-folk-prog band called "Affable Dregs" and we have a new album coming out, titled "Vicious Turnips Always Taste Most Delicious." We'd really appreciate your support!
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #181 on: January 10, 2011, 02:35:41 AM »

I would argue that it makes logical sense for at least the NT to be infallible (that is representing true doctrine) simply because the texts selected for canonization by the church displayed correct apostolic doctrine.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 02:36:46 AM by Ortho_cat » Logged
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #182 on: January 10, 2011, 02:38:19 AM »

Atheism today is a sad state of affairs.
Riiiigggght... what exactly are you expecting it to be? Who are these old glory days atheists we should use as role models?
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #183 on: January 10, 2011, 02:40:52 AM »

Atheism today is a sad state of affairs.
Riiiigggght... what exactly are you expecting it to be? Who are these old glory days atheists we should use as role models?

 Wink

Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,149


Hello for now, my friend


« Reply #184 on: January 10, 2011, 02:41:37 AM »

Atheism today is a sad state of affairs.
Riiiigggght... what exactly are you expecting it to be? Who are these old glory days atheists we should use as role models?

I vote for Diagoras of Melos, Theodorus of Cyrene, Critias, Democritus and Strato of Lampsacus; but maybe that's just me.  angel
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin

Hey, so I'm in a pop-alt-punk-folk-prog band called "Affable Dregs" and we have a new album coming out, titled "Vicious Turnips Always Taste Most Delicious." We'd really appreciate your support!
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #185 on: January 10, 2011, 03:02:16 AM »

Wait...is TryingtoConvert under the impression that Orthodoxy is based upon the Bible?  Or that Christianity's foundations are threatened in any way if the validity of the Bible is called into question?
Can you explain how orthodoxy isn't based on the bible or how christianity would even be more than a small cult if nobody thought of the bible as valid?

Orthodoxy is an historical movement out of which the Bible came, not the other way around.  The New Testament is describing something that is already taking place and is written to churches that already exist.  It is not the source.

You can point out errors all day long, find every apparent logical inconsistency, every scientific fact it got wrong and you won't hear much from Orthodox Christians besides, "That's interesting."  Nothing is riding on the Bible for us.
Do you know why that is  Cheesy? It's because they don't care, and because they know they can't actually deal with them logically, or even on an honest level. Why do you think you are trained to use self inventive circular arguments.You being a prime example! Only a really brainwashed victim or idiot would actually think the Bible was even remotely accurate or credible. And all religions are technically cults, 300 years of burning alone is enough to brand it as a cult. the bible is 99% fictitious while the last 1% of truth only lies in that it was a man written book by more than 40 Authors. I wasted much of my life believing in Fictitious nonsense. BTW.. The Orthodoxy does a very piss poor job of describing how the bible came to be, in fact, much of it is fabricated. We know where the Authors of the bible got their inspirations from, and that was from other religions and folklore/beliefs. It's entirely a cut and paste form of creative writing to which is a text book example of servitude to power. People are easy to control once you have them emotionally bonded to an imaginary symbol of power and fear. How do you think brainwashing works?

You really want to educate yourself, read some books on the mechanics of brainwashing and then read the bible over again, and then watch and observe how churches operate and advertise. Pick up some fliers and you can easily tell how messed up it is. It's really that bad!
Logged
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #186 on: January 10, 2011, 03:13:13 AM »

You're saying "go back and read Genesis" as if I don't know what's in Genesis.  That's arrogance.  You're assuming I know nothing of my religion.  I've explained very clearly the context and allegory of "eat all plants" in that specific verse.  Now, you're just being defiant, or in denial, or simply an ass about it.
Incorrect. You tried to rationalize it's stupidity. The only person here being in denial is you..

Quote
"What did you think God is when you were a Christian,"
Before I educated myself, exactly what you think. Fortunately, my IQ went above 20 after 18 years of age. Doesn't take a genius to figure out this logical fallacy. And I do believe you are again trying to deflect with irrelevant arguments. Seriously, you need to stop trolling the discussion. If you don't know what a troll is, I suggest you google it.

Quote
I'm not trolling.  You're misrepresenting my beliefs.
Incorrect. You don't seem to even understand your position.
Logged
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #187 on: January 10, 2011, 03:33:39 AM »

For example, the book of Revelation is a vision, with colorful metaphors in every line. Yet, that page makes light of "stars will fall from the sky"...
What does stating the obvious about starlight have to do with the discussion? Ahh yes, more deflection from the arguments posted.. Let us know when your god understands that plants don't grow before the existence of the sun!

Quote
Or the smallest seed is the mustard seed. I guess he should have said orchid seed, assuming there were any orchids around. He could have been scientifically correct, but then you'd have entire chapters of the bible dedicated to scientific explanations.
The bible can't even get the order of events correct much less be worth anything scientifically. I can go through Genesis if you like and completely rip it apart.

Quote
Instead, A broad use of metaphors are used to illustrate concepts and ideas, so everyone can understand.
That's really all it is, just concepts and ideas that are inherently incorrect, contradictory , or just plane stupid.

Quote
Kinda like star trek, when the" flux veriton capacitor will emit tachyons to collapse the space-time graviton Talinberg Phenomenon" which was followed by the other guy saying "kinda like turning the faucet off on the sink"... Well no, stupid, not like that at all, but good enough.
It's no stupid, the Earth wasn't here before the Sun, and insects have 6 legs, while plants can't grow or exist without sunlight! Plus many others not mentioned here.

BTW.. Did your GOD create Darkness and Light? Funny how there can only be one or the other.. Ahh, another fail.

Quote
This makes God a man or material, instead of "greater" than the very creation He creates (beyond time, matter, and space).
WTF? Dude, lay off the drugs man. If you can't even make intelligible arguments, don't make any at all!. And it didn't even answer the questions  Shocked  You know why I'm getting stern with people like you, you intentionally play stupid. I mean, you have got to be playing stupid because I don't think anyone is really that dumb to make such an argument of pure intelligible nonsense.  Shocked  it's One load of Delusional pile of mind masturbation.

Quote
(beyond time, matter, and space)
Good to know he doesn't exist

You want to believe your deity is made of nothing (non-material).. Go ahead and do so Cheesy
You want to believe your god exist outside of place of existence (nowhere, or nonexistence) you go ahead and think that Cheesy
You want to believe that your GOD doesn't need information to know anything, or even it's own existence.. You go ahead and think that Cheesy

Attaching qualities of non-existence and nothing to something is exactly a prime example of the quality of the brainwashing many theists receive. It's the teaching of idiocy in order inject blind faith without question. And that is why so many of you make up your own imaginative nonsense.[/i] That is dishonest as you can possibly ever get Cheesy. You sir have poor debating skills, and you actually think your arguments are worth something here.  :-




TtC,

After close consideration of your recent postings I feel as though some of your comments are really crossing the line into ad hominem attacks. (ie: the implication that Azuretone is "on drugs" and the accusation that Mina's IQ is drastically less than yours, just to name 2 examples.) Ad hominems are not only against the board rules, but they  also just uncivil and inappropriate for mature debate. I realize things can get heated in any debate, and that the rules of this particular Forum are more relaxed, however I really do think these comments are aimed at individuals on the forum, and that the comments about the people they are directed at are meant to discredit their arguments, that is the very definition of an ad hominem. Even if these were meant either in jest, or just to "make a point", they still fit the definition of ad hominems. I ask that you please try and make your points without resorting to the name calling and crypto-ad hominem arguments. I'm giving you a 14 day green dot warning, but any further ad hominems will force me to take further and stricter disciplinary action. I'm trying to be as a fair as I can be but if you feel this warning is unwarranted feel free to appeal to Fr. George

Northern Pines, Religious Topics Forum Moderator


 Ad Hominem attacks
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 09:48:52 AM by NorthernPines » Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #188 on: January 10, 2011, 10:55:08 AM »

For example, the book of Revelation is a vision, with colorful metaphors in every line. Yet, that page makes light of "stars will fall from the sky"...
What does stating the obvious about starlight have to do with the discussion? Ahh yes, more deflection from the arguments posted.. Let us know when your god understands that plants don't grow before the existence of the sun!

Quote
Or the smallest seed is the mustard seed. I guess he should have said orchid seed, assuming there were any orchids around. He could have been scientifically correct, but then you'd have entire chapters of the bible dedicated to scientific explanations.
The bible can't even get the order of events correct much less be worth anything scientifically. I can go through Genesis if you like and completely rip it apart.

Quote
Instead, A broad use of metaphors are used to illustrate concepts and ideas, so everyone can understand.
That's really all it is, just concepts and ideas that are inherently incorrect, contradictory , or just plane stupid.

The book of Genesis is poem of Truths. A literal poem. It's shouldn't be taken fully literal, but with understanding. The difference in approach, is I don't try to reconcile the differences. I know one is poetic Truth, whilst the other is observable reality.

Quote
Kinda like star trek, when the" flux veriton capacitor will emit tachyons to collapse the space-time graviton Talinberg Phenomenon" which was followed by the other guy saying "kinda like turning the faucet off on the sink"... Well no, stupid, not like that at all, but good enough.
It's no stupid, the Earth wasn't here before the Sun, and insects have 6 legs, while plants can't grow or exist without sunlight! Plus many others not mentioned here.

BTW.. Did your GOD create Darkness and Light? Funny how there can only be one or the other.. Ahh, another fail.

Darkness is not a something, but an absence. Light is what darkness is not.

This is also useful in understanding the poetic metaphors associated with light and dark. "God is light" can visibly mean, He is the something that fills the void.

Quote
This makes God a man or material, instead of "greater" than the very creation He creates (beyond time, matter, and space).
WTF? Dude, lay off the drugs man. If you can't even make intelligible arguments, don't make any at all!. And it didn't even answer the questions  Shocked  You know why I'm getting stern with people like you, you intentionally play stupid. I mean, you have got to be playing stupid because I don't think anyone is really that dumb to make such an argument of pure intelligible nonsense.  Shocked  it's One load of Delusional pile of mind masturbation.

I am being fully truthful with you. Of course, it may require thinking outside the container.

Quote
(beyond time, matter, and space)
Good to know he doesn't exist

You want to believe your deity is made of nothing (non-material).. Go ahead and do so Cheesy
You want to believe your god exist outside of place of existence (nowhere, or nonexistence) you go ahead and think that Cheesy
You want to believe that your GOD doesn't need information to know anything, or even it's own existence.. You go ahead and think that Cheesy

Attaching qualities of non-existence and nothing to something is exactly a prime example of the quality of the brainwashing many theists receive. It's the teaching of idiocy in order inject blind faith without question. And that is why so many of you make up your own imaginative nonsense.[/i] That is dishonest as you can possibly ever get Cheesy. You sir have poor debating skills, and you actually think your arguments are worth something here.  Undecided

What was before "the big bang"? Fabric of the universe? Space, time (as we know it), and matter did not exist. Even speaking about a "moment" before the big bang is using language that doesn't fit to talk about something imperceivable. M-theory language, with reference to the 11 dimensions, is only perceived through the math on notebook paper. And what is math? Is math real? Are there really three pencils, or do we give that order? Math is an abstract thought by men to give and show order.

We take for granted the many things that are abstract ideas, imperceivable without a human mind, yet nonetheless real.

Logged


I'm going to need this.
deuteros
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 92



« Reply #189 on: January 10, 2011, 02:18:52 PM »

What a shame that people aren't ashamed of exercising what has been determiend to be a constitutional right. Roll Eyes I guess I fail to get your point.

If I cheat on my unsuspecting wife is that something to be proud of?
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #190 on: January 10, 2011, 03:43:10 PM »

Truth is sacred; and if you tell the truth too often nobody will believe it.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,149


Hello for now, my friend


« Reply #191 on: January 10, 2011, 03:55:07 PM »

Truth is sacred; and if you tell the truth too often nobody will believe it.

In the immortal words of Bill McNeil: "Your complicated thesis intrigues me. Tell me more."
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin

Hey, so I'm in a pop-alt-punk-folk-prog band called "Affable Dregs" and we have a new album coming out, titled "Vicious Turnips Always Taste Most Delicious." We'd really appreciate your support!
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #192 on: January 10, 2011, 05:19:22 PM »

Truth is sacred; and if you tell the truth too often nobody will believe it.

In the immortal words of Bill McNeil: "Your complicated thesis intrigues me. Tell me more."
Further comment would detract from the inspired nature of that statement.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #193 on: January 10, 2011, 05:20:36 PM »

I think we can humbly sum up TtC's argument, just the same way Turek observed Hitchen's argument, “I don’t believe in God, and I hate him.” Classic.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,149


Hello for now, my friend


« Reply #194 on: January 10, 2011, 05:22:51 PM »

Truth is sacred; and if you tell the truth too often nobody will believe it.

In the immortal words of Bill McNeil: "Your complicated thesis intrigues me. Tell me more."
Further comment would detract from the inspired nature of that statement.

Le sigh. Very well then, life goes on... I suppose...
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin

Hey, so I'm in a pop-alt-punk-folk-prog band called "Affable Dregs" and we have a new album coming out, titled "Vicious Turnips Always Taste Most Delicious." We'd really appreciate your support!
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,109


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #195 on: January 10, 2011, 09:04:27 PM »

Why do you think you are trained to use self inventive circular arguments.You being a prime example! Only a really brainwashed victim or idiot would actually think the Bible was even remotely accurate or credible.

Ad hominem. Nice.

And all religions are technically cults, 300 years of burning alone is enough to brand it as a cult.

LOL.  You've demonstrated yourself to be a poor historian (and poorer philosopher), so why should this statement be treated as a credible one?

the bible is 99% fictitious while the last 1% of truth only lies in that it was a man written book by more than 40 Authors.

You do understand that your percentages are (a) not grounded in reality (not even from an Atheist's perspective), and (b) not worth the electrons they've wasted in their existence.

I wasted much of my life believing in Fictitious nonsense.

"Tis better to have loved and lost then never loved at all."

BTW.. The Orthodoxy does a very piss poor job of describing how the bible came to be, in fact, much of it is fabricated. We know where the Authors of the bible got their inspirations from, and that was from other religions and folklore/beliefs. It's entirely a cut and paste form of creative writing to which is a text book example of servitude to power.

Your regurgitating a tired rhetoric that has been debunked by even the most radical Biblical critics doesn't endear you to anyone here.

People are easy to control once you have them emotionally bonded to an imaginary symbol of power and fear. How do you think brainwashing works?

You obviously have no clue how it works, since you've misapplied the label and certainly the methodology.

You really want to educate yourself, read some books on the mechanics of brainwashing and then read the bible over again, and then watch and observe how churches operate and advertise. Pick up some fliers and you can easily tell how messed up it is. It's really that bad!

LOL.  Your posts reek of brainwashing.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,109


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #196 on: January 10, 2011, 09:05:57 PM »

Quote
"What did you think God is when you were a Christian,"
Before I educated myself, exactly what you think. Fortunately, my IQ went above 20 after 18 years of age. Doesn't take a genius to figure out this logical fallacy. And I do believe you are again trying to deflect with irrelevant arguments. Seriously, you need to stop trolling the discussion. If you don't know what a troll is, I suggest you google it.

Another ad hominem. You seem ill equipped to handle debate without insults.

Incorrect. You don't seem to even understand your position. 

Physician, heal thyself.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,109


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #197 on: January 10, 2011, 09:17:45 PM »

What does stating the obvious about starlight have to do with the discussion? Ahh yes, more deflection from the arguments posted.. Let us know when your god understands that plants don't grow before the existence of the sun!

Even if I were a literal interpreter Genesis, your argument is fairly weak; plants don't need the Sun, they need light, warmth, water, and nutrients (all of which, mind you, can be done nowadays without the plant ever encountering natural sunlight).  If one takes the timeline literally, then light came first - hence, a crucial building block for plant life.  Leave the simpleton arguments at home.

The bible can't even get the order of events correct much less be worth anything scientifically. I can go through Genesis if you like and completely rip it apart.

You obviously don't understand its intention, so why would we want you to make a fool of yourself?  You don't walk into a Kindergarten and mock the children for being less than 5' tall; they're not supposed to be that tall yet at that age.

That's really all it is, just concepts and ideas that are inherently incorrect, contradictory , or just plane stupid.

It's no stupid, the Earth wasn't here before the Sun, and insects have 6 legs, while plants can't grow or exist without sunlight! Plus many others not mentioned here.

See my comment above.

BTW.. Did your GOD create Darkness and Light? Funny how there can only be one or the other.. Ahh, another fail.

You're not very good at physics, are you?  Only light was created, since darkness is, by definition, an absence of light; you probably think, scientifically, that "cold" exists, too.

WTF? Dude, lay off the drugs man.

Ad hominem.  These seem to pop up a lot with you.

If you can't even make intelligible arguments, don't make any at all!. And it didn't even answer the questions  Shocked  You know why I'm getting stern with people like you, you intentionally play stupid. I mean, you have got to be playing stupid because I don't think anyone is really that dumb to make such an argument of pure intelligible nonsense.  Shocked  it's One load of Delusional pile of mind masturbation.

"Getting stern."  LOL.  Are you the teacher who's trying to make up for the fact that people don't naturally respect them, so instead you lower yourself to insults and bullying?  How passe!

Good to know he doesn't exist

Not in the way that you think He does.

You want to believe your deity is made of nothing (non-material).. Go ahead and do so Cheesy
You want to believe your god exist outside of place of existence (nowhere, or nonexistence) you go ahead and think that Cheesy
You want to believe that your GOD doesn't need information to know anything, or even it's own existence.. You go ahead and think that Cheesy

We believe what has been revealed, in word, in deed, in testimony, in tradition, in truth.  If we're wrong, there's been no harm to you; if we're right, well... Don't say you weren't warned.

Attaching qualities of non-existence and nothing to something is exactly a prime example of the quality of the brainwashing many theists receive. It's the teaching of idiocy in order inject blind faith without question. And that is why so many of you make up your own imaginative nonsense.[/i] That is dishonest as you can possibly ever get Cheesy. You sir have poor debating skills, and you actually think your arguments are worth something here.  Undecided

The ability of people to believe in things that they cannot experience empirically, and which challenge existing notions of existence, has been a driving force not only in religion, but in science as well.  For people of science, those beliefs lead to hypotheses, experiments, and either proof or rejection; for people of faith, those beliefs lead to (hopefully) a good and productive life in a community of faith, and eternal joy once we're freed of the present existence.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,267

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #198 on: January 10, 2011, 09:56:45 PM »

Do you know why that is  Cheesy? It's because they don't care, and because they know they can't actually deal with them logically, or even on an honest level.

Who's "they"?  Orthodox theologians that you've obviously never read?  Anyway, this actually proves my point, they don't really "care" because they don't have to.  Nothing is hingeing on the Bible's authenticity for Orthodoxy.

Quote
Why do you think you are trained to use self inventive circular arguments.

Am I trained or am I self-inventing?  Or did I train myself?

Quote
You being a prime example! Only a really brainwashed victim or idiot would actually think the Bible was even remotely accurate or credible.

I'm sorry, did I say this somewhere?  I'm a prime example because, what, I've been appealing to the accuracy of the Bible for something?  Where and when?

Quote
the bible is 99% fictitious while the last 1% of truth only lies in that it was a man written book by more than 40 Authors.

Sounds like somebody needs to go back to Jr. High and get re-acquainted with basic math and percentages.

Quote
I wasted much of my life believing in Fictitious nonsense.

Sounds like you're still in that phase to me.

Quote
BTW.. The Orthodoxy does a very piss poor job of describing how the bible came to be, in fact, much of it is fabricated.

Which source from "The Orthodoxy" are you referring to?

Quote
We know where the Authors of the bible got their inspirations from, and that was from other religions and folklore/beliefs.

Surely you don't have documents younger than the Bible in mind?  If you have more ancient sources that have parallels with the Bible, I'd love to read them.

Quote
It's entirely a cut and paste form of creative writing to which is a text book example of servitude to power. People are easy to control once you have them emotionally bonded to an imaginary symbol of power and fear. How do you think brainwashing works?

I'm not sure how it works but I assure you, my conversion from atheism wasn't because I somehow got brainwashed as an adult.  If anyone comes across as a rabid, fundamentalist with hints of having been brainwashed, I think it's you my friend.
Logged
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #199 on: January 10, 2011, 10:49:05 PM »

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/370183/january-06-2011/bill-o-reilly-proves-god-s-existence---neil-degrasse-tyson

On a lighter note, Bill O'Reilly has proven the existance of God!
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,674


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #200 on: January 11, 2011, 01:02:19 AM »

TTC,

You obviously have no understanding of the Bible, or history for that matter.  You claim religions to be "copy and paste" of each other, but your arguments are nothing but a copy and paste of the most unscholarly stupidities online.  IQ 20 points higher?  Are you sure you didn't see that arrow upside down?  Your arguments are nothing but misrepresentations, whether intentionally (which is trolling) or unintentionally (which is stupidity in your part).  Either way, it's pointless to continue with this discussion because either you don't understand my arguments or you're turning a blind eye.  I mean look at this:

Quote
Incorrect. You tried to rationalize it's stupidity. The only person here being in denial is you..

Let's assume this can be taken literally.  Again, in its context, we're talking about the Garden of Eden, and then after Adam sinned, thorns started to show, a fallen world where poisonous fruits occur.  Shows how much you're stupidly ignoring context in the Bible.

Quote
Incorrect. You don't seem to even understand your position.

LOL!!!!  Now I must admit, you did make me laugh on this one.  Shows a character of supreme IQ to truly understand my position that I apparently don't understand  Undecided

In both the Bible and "my position" you're looking for something that's not even there.  How sad.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 01:04:47 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #201 on: January 11, 2011, 02:47:07 PM »

CONTEXT NOTE: This and a sampling of the posts that follow were originally posted here on Faith Issues.  -PtA



Here are is a series of podcast that are excellent in content if not sound fidelity. He argues passionately in them for the action before explanation route of sharing the faith with others:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_1
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_two
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_three[/color]

I listened to these three (WOW what a shock I know Cheesy). Putting faith before thinking is dangerous and extremely foolish. What if I pray to God and nothing happens?

I've read the New Testament slowly before. I'm not going to follow a lot of its rules, because a lot are stupid. What's wrong with having sex with someone else that I'm not married to?

Now giving away extra money and helping some people out for 1 or two hours sounds like a good thing to do, but impractical.

The first thing you can do is stop believing in God.

Ignorance is bliss, but knowledge is liberating.


You were warned not even ten days ago to stop trolling the Faith Issues board with your atheistic propaganda (see THIS POST), yet you continue. Therefore, you are on Post Moderation for the next 30 days. During the time of your Moderation, every post you submit must be reviewed by a moderator before it will appear on the forum. If you think this action wrong, please appeal it via private message to Fr. George.

- PeterTheAleut
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 12:26:38 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,358


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #202 on: January 11, 2011, 02:59:39 PM »

Here are is a series of podcast that are excellent in content if not sound fidelity. He argues passionately in them for the action before explanation route of sharing the faith with others:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_1
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_two
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_three[/color]

I listened to these three (WOW what a shock I know Cheesy). Putting faith before thinking is dangerous and extremely foolish. What if I pray to God and nothing happens?

I've read the New Testament slowly before. I'm not going to follow a lot of its rules, because a lot are stupid. What's wrong with having sex with someone else that I'm not married to?

Now giving away extra money and helping some people out for 1 or two hours sounds like a good thing to do, but impractical.

The first thing you can do is stop believing in God.

Ignorance is bliss, but knowledge is liberating.

Some of us see atheism as irrational.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #203 on: January 11, 2011, 03:01:28 PM »

Here are is a series of podcast that are excellent in content if not sound fidelity. He argues passionately in them for the action before explanation route of sharing the faith with others:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_1
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_two
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_three[/color]

I listened to these three (WOW what a shock I know Cheesy). Putting faith before thinking is dangerous and extremely foolish. What if I pray to God and nothing happens?

I've read the New Testament slowly before. I'm not going to follow a lot of its rules, because a lot are stupid. What's wrong with having sex with someone else that I'm not married to?

Now giving away extra money and helping some people out for 1 or two hours sounds like a good thing to do, but impractical.

The first thing you can do is stop believing in God.

Ignorance is bliss, but knowledge is liberating.

Some of us see atheism as irrational.
How? Because we don't believe in a phony sky daddy? Praying to an imaginary being?
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,358


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #204 on: January 11, 2011, 03:02:11 PM »

Here are is a series of podcast that are excellent in content if not sound fidelity. He argues passionately in them for the action before explanation route of sharing the faith with others:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_1
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_two
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_three[/color]

I listened to these three (WOW what a shock I know Cheesy). Putting faith before thinking is dangerous and extremely foolish. What if I pray to God and nothing happens?

I've read the New Testament slowly before. I'm not going to follow a lot of its rules, because a lot are stupid. What's wrong with having sex with someone else that I'm not married to?

Now giving away extra money and helping some people out for 1 or two hours sounds like a good thing to do, but impractical.

The first thing you can do is stop believing in God.

Ignorance is bliss, but knowledge is liberating.

Some of us see atheism as irrational.
How? Because we don't believe in a phony sky daddy? Praying to an imaginary being?
No. Because you believe that something can come from nothing, more can come from less, and order can come from disorder.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #205 on: January 11, 2011, 03:05:53 PM »

No. It is uneccesary to believe in a god.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,358


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #206 on: January 11, 2011, 03:10:25 PM »

No. It is uneccesary to believe in a god.
I didn't say you had to believe in him. But if you don't, then the conclusion of your position is that something can come from nothing, more comes from less, and order comes from disorder. If you want to believe in such a fairtale land, that is up to you.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 03:10:42 PM by Papist » Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
sainthieu
Abstractor of the Quintessence
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 621


« Reply #207 on: January 11, 2011, 03:11:24 PM »

"No. It is uneccesary to believe in a god."

Oh, do go away. You're tiresome. You can't even spell.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 03:11:35 PM by sainthieu » Logged
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #208 on: January 11, 2011, 03:18:39 PM »

No. It is uneccesary to believe in a god.
I didn't say you had to believe in him. But if you don't, then the conclusion of your position is that something can come from nothing, more comes from less, and order comes from disorder. If you want to believe in such a fairtale land, that is up to you.

is that not what GOD is? he is essentially nothing. how can something be uncreated its absurd
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #209 on: January 11, 2011, 03:24:34 PM »

Putting faith before thinking is dangerous and extremely foolish.

And arrogance over possible Truth, equally so.

What if I pray to God and nothing happens?

Prayer isn't a source of material wealth and situational happiness. This is a childish view, that unfortunately, many fall victim. Prayer is for spiritual growth and to understand love. It is about a relationship with the Reason and becoming like Him.

I've read the New Testament slowly before. I'm not going to follow a lot of its rules, because a lot are stupid. What's wrong with having sex with someone else that I'm not married to?

Rules are a means of showing what is "love" and what is not.

Is extramarital relations damaging to someone? Yourself? Your wife? Your partner you use for sex? Your partner's relations with others? Any children that are caught up in this "relation"? Et cetera?

Those same rules are built on another, possible, design. That man and woman were built for one another, and together, they can know love and in turn know God. Using that design for personal gain and perversion begets nothing of good. Realized immediate, or years later.

The rules are a warning.

Ignorance is bliss, but knowledge is liberating.

Do you feel liberated?
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,358


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #210 on: January 11, 2011, 03:26:42 PM »

No. It is uneccesary to believe in a god.
I didn't say you had to believe in him. But if you don't, then the conclusion of your position is that something can come from nothing, more comes from less, and order comes from disorder. If you want to believe in such a fairtale land, that is up to you.

is that not what GOD is? he is essentially nothing. how can something be uncreated its absurd
No. You need to read up on what it is that Catholic and Orthodox actually believe about God, because it is clear that you are now building a strawman argument.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #211 on: January 11, 2011, 03:45:34 PM »

No. It is uneccesary to believe in a god.
I didn't say you had to believe in him. But if you don't, then the conclusion of your position is that something can come from nothing, more comes from less, and order comes from disorder. If you want to believe in such a fairtale land, that is up to you.

is that not what GOD is? he is essentially nothing. how can something be uncreated its absurd
If Gos is nothing, and you are something, then you must be greater than God...
Does this statement seem to follow your train(wreck) of thought?
You can surely not convince those who believe in God, otherwise. We have seen enough proof through our relationship with him. The proof was sufficient for us. An trust me, I was a skeptic. So what exactly are you "trying to convert" too?
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #212 on: January 11, 2011, 05:10:15 PM »

"Go to the tombs, and see that the assurance of men is nothing." ~ St. Pachomios
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #213 on: January 11, 2011, 07:17:55 PM »

Who's "they"?  Orthodox theologians that you've obviously never read?  Anyway, this actually proves my point, they don't really "care" because they don't have to.  Nothing is hingeing on the Bible's authenticity for Orthodoxy.
It does. For one the Ark story is completely taken from Gilgamesh. Jesus Story is hardly original (take the time to actually study it, and his rivals). You really seem unable to deal with how fabricated the bible really is. The bible's authenticity is only authentic to where you can establish that it was written by man. It's Authenticity stops there son. The Orthodoxy does not explain the bible's origins in detail, and makes quite a bit of assumptions.

Let's just explore the problems with calling the bible a "historical document of truth". Let's start with inconsistency in Genesis alone, and why it's all fabricated nonsense by some moron that didn't know anything about the real world or how it really came to be.

To save myself time, I am going to quote from another source even though I had written my own articles here on Genesis:

---
In the first chapter of Genesis, there is a legendary account of the creation. These legends contradict each other at every point. In the first, the earth is represented as coming into existence completely enveloped in water. In the second, it is represented as being originally a dry plain, lacking even moisture. 1 (Gen. 1:2, 9; 2:6) According to the first account, all the fowls of the air were created out of water-
Quote
-"and God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth"
...
Quote
and the waters brought forth "every winged fowl after his kind." But according to the second account, the fowls were created out of the ground "
And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air." 2 (Gen. 1:20, 21; 2:19) The first story has it that the trees were made on the third day, and that man was formed three days later. The second story declares that man was made before the trees. 3 (Gen.1:12,13, 26-31; 2:7,9.)

If the first account is true, the fowls were created before man. If the second is correct, they were created after man. 4 (Gen. 1:21, 27 2:7,19) The first tale distinctly teaches that man was created after all the beasts. The second is as positive in its assurance that man was formed before the beasts. 5 (Gen. 1:25,27; 2:7,19) In the first account, we are told that man and woman were created at the same time, by one act of creation, and after all other things had been made. In the second story, it is explained that the man was made alone; that the woman was not formed until the man had failed to find a wife among the beasts, and that the making of the man, before the beasts, and of the woman, after the beasts, constituted two distinct acts of creation. 6 (Gen. 1:25,27; 2:7, 20-22) According to the first account, the man and the woman were given the freedom of the world, and were told to subdue it. According to the second, they were confined within the narrow limits of a garden.
-----

And that is just a few examples with concerning the Bibles Authenticity.

Quote
Am I trained or am I self-inventing?  Or did I train myself?
You seem to be both.. I know I was when I was a Christian. I don't preach nonsense anymore, nor do I self-invent my own interpretations of the bible and then preach it like you do.

Quote
I'm sorry, did I say this somewhere?  I'm a prime example because, what, I've been appealing to the accuracy of the Bible for something?  Where and when?
So you appeal to the accuracy of the bible without actually questioning and examining it's accuracy correct? You might want to work on that accuracy problem with the bible. And even if those who wrote the bible managed to get it right, it still wouldn't give the bible authenticity!

Quote
Which source from "The Orthodoxy" are you referring to?
To many, the origin of the Bible can be summed-up as follows: "A mere translation of a translation of an interpretation of an oral tradition" This is essentially true. Translations such as the King James Version are derived from existing copies of ancient manuscripts such as the Hebrew Masoretic Text, or the Textus Receptus , and are not translations of texts translated from other interpretations.

The other problem you have is this:

The Bible is God's letter to humanity collected into 66 books written by 40 divinely inspired writers over a period of over 1,600 years.[/u][/i] So it's pretty dang funny when you read the bible. The bible itself is a assumed as GOD's Word! Please feel free to authenticate that![/U][/I] .. What's worse, religious people try to authenticate it through vague prophecies. Talk about gullible! It get's worse when many of the prophecies fail to come to be (such as many prophecies surrounding Jesus's own birth), or when they proclaim the obvious like the end of the world!.

Quote
Surely you don't have documents younger than the Bible in mind?  If you have more ancient sources that have parallels with the Bible, I'd love to read them.
Go read up on other religions far more ancient than Christianity son! Hello! Even the nativity scenes are similar to that of Egyptian nativity scenes (as a small example).

Quote
I'm not sure how it works but I assure you, my conversion from atheism wasn't because I somehow got brainwashed as an adult.  If anyone comes across as a rabid, fundamentalist with hints of having been brainwashed, I think it's you my friend.
Then you won't be afraid to read some books on the mechanics of brainwashing and subliminal programming and then actually re-read the bible or observe how religion operates on a daily basis. If you really are so sure about your position you won't have much to worry about.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 07:18:27 PM by TryingtoConvert » Logged
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #214 on: January 11, 2011, 07:29:09 PM »

LOL.  You've demonstrated yourself to be a poor historian (and poorer philosopher), so why should this statement be treated as a credible one?
Should I point out examples in the bible itself then? LOL.. There are plenty examples I can go by to show it's a cult. Hardly a poor historian either because the 300 years of burning wasn't a magical fairy tale, neither were the Crusades.

Quote
You do understand that your percentages are (a) not grounded in reality (not even from an Atheist's perspective), and (b) not worth the electrons they've wasted in their existence.
Really, please verify the core to your bible as being 100% truth. Ahh, you can't can you! GJ!

Quote
"Tis better to have loved and lost then never loved at all."
Incorrect, it's better to know a lie than to blindly follow one. And love has nothing to do with this discussion.

Quote
Your regurgitating a tired rhetoric that has been debunked by even the most radical Biblical critics doesn't endear you to anyone here.
BTW like the regurgitating circular arguments made by posters here? And sorry, nothing I've stated has been debunked by the most radical Biblical critics. Nice try though.

Quote
You obviously have no clue how it works, since you've misapplied the label and certainly the methodology.
Quote
If anyone comes across as a rabid, fundamentalist with hints of having been brainwashed, I think it's you my friend.
Im not rabid, I'm being very direct with you. And any animosity shown here in this thread is due to your circular self-invented avoiding arguments, or preaching. Not once have you actually addressed any points made here with any sort of honesty. When you can manage to drop the act and actually engage a discussion without being dishonest, you let me know.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,149


Hello for now, my friend


« Reply #215 on: January 11, 2011, 07:31:35 PM »

The other problem you have is this:

The Bible is God's letter to humanity collected into 66 books written by 40 divinely inspired writers over a period of over 1,600 years.[/u][/i] So it's pretty dang funny when you read the bible. The bible itself is a assumed as GOD's Word!

I would be very suprised if you could find an Orthodox Christian who would say that. It's possible, but I'd be suprised.  You seem to be critiquing not an Orthodox view of a Bible, but rather a Protestant view (this is given away, to some extent, by the number 66, which is the number of books that Protestants accept in their canon, not Orthodox, Catholics, etc... the differences actually go far beyond the number of books, but the number is just an easy tip off).
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin

Hey, so I'm in a pop-alt-punk-folk-prog band called "Affable Dregs" and we have a new album coming out, titled "Vicious Turnips Always Taste Most Delicious." We'd really appreciate your support!
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #216 on: January 11, 2011, 07:35:23 PM »

So again:

Much of the stuff you will find in the bible will have parallels in regards to the Egyptian's, and older religions. Even nativity scenes ectra have shown to be pretty similar to Christianity. And I wasn't referring to copy paste vs copying the ideas, stories, and folklore and molding it into the making of the bible itself. Much of what you read in the bible is and was heavily influenced by much older religions. There are reasons why such parallel's exist that are hardly even original. Even Jesus's own story is hardly original! .. For Pete's sake, take the time to actually compare your bible to other ancient religions and literature!

And it might help if either of you could verify which version of the bible is "authentic"

http://www.allbibles.com/bibleversions.asp

Which one do you both read and follow?
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #217 on: January 11, 2011, 07:38:07 PM »

I was one of the last here to actually think TtC was here for dialogue, but frankly, I don't care anymore.

Your condescending and arrogant attitude has finally rubbed me the wrong way. When you mature a little bit more, perhaps we can continue. Besides, you ignored ever answer to your questions, and instead opted for the poorly constructed atheist arguments against Protestantism.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,674


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #218 on: January 11, 2011, 07:43:13 PM »

"insignificant" huh? Why is it that these observations try to void all purposeness in life? Oh you're just a cause from some sort of random event, no reason at all. Just cause. That is truly absurd.

I don't think people try to get rid of purpose, I think that's just what they see as the logical and consistent conclusion of their beliefs. I wouldn't call it absurdity, I'd call it sincerity. However, I think they could be wrong, and there could be alternative views. For instance, I was quite depressed last night (and I'm understating things quite a bit). One thing that helped pull me out was a show I had recorded and started watching on black holes. Ha! Black holes could destroy our solar system, they said. It could rip the earth apart. Our universe could be nothing more than the innards of a black hole from some other universe, they speculated. And yet... the show really lifted my spirits, because they reminded me of the grandeur and complexity of our existence. Does that mean that purpose is a necessary thing? No, but it starts to build a case for it... at least that's how I felt last night. Yet others come to opposite conclusion--sometimes I come to an opposite conclusion. Anyway, I think I'm rambling...

I'm not sure how sincere the notion of infinite universes is.  It seems to me somewhat of an assumption into the mathematics.  "Infinity" seems to be important in the math, but how they arrived to the conclusion that that means infinite universes, I wish I knew.

I just finished watching this video provided by TTC that was about an hour long concerning the recent discoveries.  It seems that what's very interesting is that all that we can really scientifically observe may be gone in a billion years, and it may be that one may believe that only the Milky Way galaxy is our "universe."  That could be depressing to think about.  But what shocked me the most was the assertion that science is all about "mystery" and theism is all about just knowing everything with arrogance.  But who says theists know everything?  They only know the end.

Likewise, Hawking have boldly asserted to know everything there is to know about the universe "except everything in between."  I'm not sure how atheists, like Lawrence Krauss, claim theists are arrogant with no sense of mystery when in fact theists in a philosophical manner do no differently than Hawkings in a "scientific" manner (big question on "scientific" though).  Does that end the fun in mystery?  Apparently, with belief in God yes, but with the theory of everything, no.  I smell an insincere double standard in that.  If not a double standard, perhaps one of the saddest cases of an obfuscation or brainwashing of minds.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,149


Hello for now, my friend


« Reply #219 on: January 11, 2011, 08:05:37 PM »

I don't think people try to get rid of purpose, I think that's just what they see as the logical and consistent conclusion of their beliefs. I wouldn't call it absurdity, I'd call it sincerity. However, I think they could be wrong, and there could be alternative views. For instance, I was quite depressed last night (and I'm understating things quite a bit). One thing that helped pull me out was a show I had recorded and started watching on black holes. Ha! Black holes could destroy our solar system, they said. It could rip the earth apart. Our universe could be nothing more than the innards of a black hole from some other universe, they speculated. And yet... the show really lifted my spirits, because they reminded me of the grandeur and complexity of our existence. Does that mean that purpose is a necessary thing? No, but it starts to build a case for it... at least that's how I felt last night. Yet others come to opposite conclusion--sometimes I come to an opposite conclusion. Anyway, I think I'm rambling...

I'm not sure how sincere the notion of infinite universes is.  It seems to me somewhat of an assumption into the mathematics.  "Infinity" seems to be important in the math, but how they arrived to the conclusion that that means infinite universes, I wish I knew.

I just finished watching this video provided by TTC that was about an hour long concerning the recent discoveries.  It seems that what's very interesting is that all that we can really scientifically observe may be gone in a billion years, and it may be that one may believe that only the Milky Way galaxy is our "universe."  That could be depressing to think about.  But what shocked me the most was the assertion that science is all about "mystery" and theism is all about just knowing everything with arrogance.  But who says theists know everything?  They only know the end.

Likewise, Hawking have boldly asserted to know everything there is to know about the universe "except everything in between."  I'm not sure how atheists, like Lawrence Krauss, claim theists are arrogant with no sense of mystery when in fact theists in a philosophical manner do no differently than Hawkings in a "scientific" manner (big question on "scientific" though).  Does that end the fun in mystery?  Apparently, with belief in God yes, but with the theory of everything, no.  I smell an insincere double standard in that.  If not a double standard, perhaps one of the saddest cases of an obfuscation or brainwashing of minds.

Hmm, well, first let me say that I am speaking as an ignoramus. I am completely lost when it comes to mathematics and physics and so forth of the level that would be needed to really understand some of these concepts. I guess I just get the sense that I'm sort of at a high school level of understanding, whereas the people speculating are more at a doctoral level. So obviously, to some extent, I just take their word for it, if it doesn't disagree with other things I know and/or believe to be true. This is not to dismiss what you are saying; I suppose to some extent I'm caught between an intellectual rock and hard place, at least in my mind. I don't disagree with you necessarily, but I struggle to agree as well. Sincerely I do. Wink
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin

Hey, so I'm in a pop-alt-punk-folk-prog band called "Affable Dregs" and we have a new album coming out, titled "Vicious Turnips Always Taste Most Delicious." We'd really appreciate your support!
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #220 on: January 11, 2011, 08:07:11 PM »

I was one of the last here to actually think TtC was here for dialogue, but frankly, I don't care anymore.

Your condescending and arrogant attitude has finally rubbed me the wrong way. When you mature a little bit more, perhaps we can continue. Besides, you ignored ever answer to your questions, and instead opted for the poorly constructed atheist arguments against Protestantism.
How can a Perfect Creator make a Failed Creation?

Can a Perfect Carpenter build a crooked cabinet? And does it make sense for him to get angry at the cabinet for having skewed angles?

Can the plans of an Omnipotent God be waylaid by impotent Man without that God's consent?

What meaning does free will have when one's soul (assuming that such a thing exists) is held hostage with the threat of Hell? Wouldn't the worship thus extracted be about as voluntary as money surrendered at gunpoint to a robber? Would the Christian reader exonerate the robber when he argues "But, your Honor, she chose to give me the money, I didn't force her to"? Why then, would he or she exonerate God's behavior?

Blackmail, genocide, group punishment, eternal torture, these are all evil things.
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #221 on: January 11, 2011, 08:37:52 PM »

How can a Perfect Creator make a Failed Creation?
Creation is not failed. The beings God created are exactly what He created, free thinking, free choosing. Now, to save the created from their folly...if not one is saved, THEN CREATION has failed.

Quote
Can a Perfect Carpenter build a crooked cabinet? And does it make sense for him to get angry at the cabinet for having skewed angles?
If He built a crooked cabinet, then there is no sense in getting angry. However if the cabinet is animated and given the freedom to choose, and the cabinet chooses to be crooked...that is different.

Quote
Can the plans of an Omnipotent God be waylaid by impotent Man without that God's consent?
No...hence why the "plan" has not failed.

Quote
What meaning does free will have when one's soul (assuming that such a thing exists) is held hostage with the threat of Hell?
As long as the soul rejects that which gave it life, then it is not held hostage, but instead chose to side "unwisely".

Quote
Wouldn't the worship thus extracted be about as voluntary as money surrendered at gunpoint to a robber? Would the Christian reader exonerate the robber when he argues "But, your Honor, she chose to give me the money, I didn't force her to"? Why then, would he or she exonerate God's behavior?
Name one Christian doing anything Godly out of this fear and I'll show you a deluded Christian. It's as simple as a text to answer. (Rev. 3:15, 16)

Quote
Blackmail, genocide, group punishment, eternal torture, these are all evil things.
Blackmail? When God came Himself? Genocide? There will be many of EVERY nation, but all will be of the same thinking. Eternal torture? No. More like an ending that is eternal...eternally separated. Evil to the finite mind which denys God. It is mercy to those that while they deserve the same as the others, have placed simple faith into Christ and by that faith, are given a gift. Nothing more.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 08:39:14 PM by Achronos » Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,438



WWW
« Reply #222 on: January 11, 2011, 08:51:10 PM »

Here's the Reader's Digest version of the past three pages of the thread:

TtC: Because I can show that the story of Gilgamesh and Noah have similarities, the Bible's not 100% historically accurate.

Orthodox Christians: Even were that true, we never claimed the Bible was 100% historically accurate.

TtC: Yes, but you're wrong, because there are similarities between Zeus and the Titans and David and Goliath.

Orthodox Christians: We still haven't claimed the Bible was 100% historically accurate.

TtC:  Yes, but you're wrong because Samson is pretty much Heracles.

I'm reminded of one of those battery-operated walking robot toys when it gets to a wall.
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #223 on: January 11, 2011, 08:51:13 PM »

How can a Perfect Creator make a Failed Creation?

We don't believe man was always "fallen". We believe that we were once "in communion" with God. However, part of our creation was to be like God. We have a mind, rationality, and the ability to choose. This "freewill" is the double edged sword. Without freewill, we are robots. We would worship, love, commune with God, etc all because we were programmed to. With freewill, we have been given the choice. Our current 'state', we believe, is because out of our pride (in being like God) we chose against God, and are all caught up in this pride to exist separate from God and with our own choices. However, we still have the choice to return to God, despite the consequences we have inherited.  

Can a Perfect Carpenter build a crooked cabinet? And does it make sense for him to get angry at the cabinet for having skewed angles?

We don't believe in a vengeful and angry God. You may say that the Old Testament sure looks angry. However, the OT shows the transition of humanity out of the 'pagan worldview' (cosmic conflict), where all of nature is in conflict against itself. The universe is doomed to suffering, it will oppress every living thing, and we must learn to survive within it. This can be seen in the multitude of gods for every tree and river, all struggling against each other, and to be despised or appeased. The "chosen race" or the Jews, weren't special like Nazi Aryans, but were God's long selection of people to cultivate a culture to reverse this 'cosmic conflict' pagan worldview, learn to love one another, and being capable of bringing forth God on Earth to physically show us back to Him.

In other words, God is the same, but man's ability to perceive and understand his actions has changed.

Can the plans of an Omnipotent God be waylaid by impotent Man without that God's consent?

God is omnipotent, however, he created us with that freewill, and because of it's importance in our ability to choose, God will not force us to accept Him. 'Something given through force is meaningless, but given freely is priceless and purposeful.'

What meaning does free will have when one's soul (assuming that such a thing exists) is held hostage with the threat of Hell? Wouldn't the worship thus extracted be about as voluntary as money surrendered at gunpoint to a robber? Would the Christian reader exonerate the robber when he argues "But, your Honor, she chose to give me the money, I didn't force her to"? Why then, would he or she exonerate God's behavior?

There is language in the Bible about a lake of fire. Much of the idea of a burning hell comes from these Pauline images. However, we don't all view Hell in this way, especially Orthodox.

God is also described as a burning fire of love. In such a way, we can see Heaven and Hell not being two separate places, but conditions on us. In this understanding, Heaven is when we are fully accepting of God and his love, while Hell would be for those who either reject God and/or are hurt by either the relationship they have with God (now that they fully see Him) and/or they hate him for His being. In other words, Hell is about rejecting God. It's separation, and that separation may hurt (like breaking up with a girlfriend of two years).

What we do know, though, is that not being with God is not where we want to be, and it won't make us happy. That's the real teaching.

Blackmail, genocide, group punishment, eternal torture, these are all evil things.

They are definitely that, but they are all products of our freewill.

God may, and has, helped people in tough situations. However, it has always been because of that person's faith. A person must work with God, out of freewill and choice, to benefit from Him mercy and love.

Eternal torture, assumes two things. First, the individual is innocent, and two, the individual is there by force. Hell is not forced upon anyone, and who knows the mercy that God may have upon people in this life (calling them to Him), or opportunities after this life. What we do know, is that we have the choice now. You may not get another chance. Everyone in Hell rejected and continues to reject God, love, peace, and goodness. If they do not, then they are not there.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #224 on: January 11, 2011, 08:52:48 PM »

Creation is not failed. The beings God created are exactly what He created, free thinking, free choosing. Now, to save the created from their folly...if not one is saved, THEN CREATION has failed.
Well, the apex of his Creation, humans, fell short of his hopes. How is that not a failure?

Quote
If He built a crooked cabinet, then there is no sense in getting angry. However if the cabinet is animated and given the freedom to choose, and the cabinet chooses to be crooked...that is different.
To argue Free Will, you must explain why Hell is not a cogent threat to behave a certain way only.

Quote
No...hence why the "plan" has not failed.
Given that your bible claims that your god initiated the Noachic flood because humans fell short of God's wishes, I'd say your assessment here is unsupported by your own canonical document.

Quote
As long as the soul rejects that which gave it life, then it is not held hostage, but instead chose to side "unwisely".
"Your Honor, I didn't murder her. She chose not to give me her purse, so I shot her so I could take it." Would you kill your child if for some reason they disown you? Would you torture him or her?

Quote
Name one Christian doing anything Godly out of this fear and I'll show you a deluded Christian. It's as simple as a text to answer. (Rev. 3:15, 16)
No True Scotsman goes without a kilt, either. Also, please explain the pertinence of your cite ("15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. ") to this conversation, because it isn't apparent. It doesn't address fear, which is the issue here.

Quote
Blackmail? When God came Himself?
Yes. "Surrender your mind to me, or I will torture you forever" is blackmail.

Quote
Genocide? There will be many of EVERY nation,
Would you kindly address my point? This is a meaningless "answer".

Quote
Eternal torture? No. More like an ending that is eternal...eternally separated.
Well, that's hardly a torment, then. I have been godless for over thirty years, and I am much happier living without the brute. I'll remain atheist in spite of your efforts, if what you're saying is right.

Quote
Evil to the finite mind which denys God.
Yes, I am unafraid to think for myself. The god you worship would, if he existed, be evil, and worthy of nothing but contempt. My 13-year-old nephew is more mature, balanced, and pure of heart than the monster described in the Bible.

Quote
It is mercy to those that while they deserve the same as the others, have placed simple faith into Christ and by that faith, are given a gift. Nothing more.
That and three bucks will get you a cup of coffee. It does not, however, answer anything. Thanks, but I will choose Free Will.
Logged
Tags: atheism 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.204 seconds with 73 queries.