What is so desperate about what I wrote? What I have written have been believed for centuries. This is nothing new.
Not hard to imagine people centuries believing such nonsense, especially considering their average education was pretty dang poor. I could have flown over them in a Helicopter and they would have worshiped me as a GOD. Centuries old nonsense doesn't make it any less nonsensical centuries later. You are here attempting to suggest that because other people believe something that it's magically truth. It's a false and dishonest argument because you really don't want to face the arguments posted.
I'm simply applying the same beliefs as has been professed before.
You claim to be a Christian before. Show some sympathy then.
How can I show you sympathy when you continue to use dishonest discourse, knowingly so no less. I've tried to be sympathetic, and you must remember where you are here. You are in a thread that challenges and discusses these issues. If you don't want your faith or belief in GOD challenged, why are you here? You ought to know better, and ought to know what to expect when you enter these discussions, especially when you choose to engage in them.
So far, it seems we're just talking past one another, where you call me stupid, and I call you narrow-minded.
Nobody called you stupid, nor do I think you are stupid. However, that doesn't mean that your actions here weren't stupid. We all do stupid things, and I did point that out. I also outlined why you got yourself into that position. You engaged in dishonest discourse, deflective arguments, circular arguments, and even arguments that were clearly made up as you went along. Did you seriously think those kinds of debating tactics or arguments would land you any respect? I even sometimes find myself in these situations to where I need to take a good step back and realize my own nonsense. We are all human, and we all do stupid things from time to time. So no, I wouldn't hold this against you unless you really choose to persist with it.
I never tagged an attribute of non-existence or existence to God.
Actually you have, more than once. Please re-read your arguments. Don't make me quote you, that's not going to turn out well for you.
I am limited in my discussion of Him. You compare God to "dragons, sky fairies" and yet you can't understand what I am trying to tell you. You are unable to understand because you don't want to. You are narrow-minded, and a pejorative one at that.
No, I compared your version or concept of it to those because it really is beyond possible. Also made the argument that you keep ignoring, and that argument was that the concept of GOD is only a concept of Opinion regardless of any entity should exist. Opinions in a world of Opinions is irrelevant! Things are only GODS if you worship them as such. Otherwise it's an irrelevant concept simply because anything can be worshiped as a GOD!.
Opinion is only your opinion.
Interesting, it seems like you have had your first logical thought. Now read the above over again.
Nothing what you say I disagree with. I understand science very well. I don't denounce science, but I respectfully disagree with your belief that that's all that's there.
Eh? Science is only the study of all that is there and nothing more. Are you making the argument that since you feel there should be more, that there is magically more? It's ok if you disagree with my position, but that isn't actually what you are attempting to disagree with. This entire time you have been attempting to disagree with the fundamental rules of existence itself as if that's magically possible. Your GOD can't be made of nothing, can't be infinite, can't be omnipotent, can't be all powerful, can't exist out side the capacity of existence or spatial capacity, can't be a negative dimensional object, can't function or even know itself exists without information, can't create existence, and surely can't create the rules of existence either. The Christian GOD concept is so flawed that it's actually rather ridiculous.
Come again? So you are arguing that the flaws of religion and of God is a god that created suffering and death and that people can't even lead by example? If you can't see how emotional you are in your arguments right now, then you're right, there's no point in continuing this discussion.
I actually was quite calm, you simply read emotion in that vs actually taking the time to understand the argument. So I will make it really easy for you.
(under your beliefs)1) Did your GOD create the 10 commandments
2) Did your GOD create Death?
3) Did your GOD create suffering?4) Did your GOD kill anything?
5) Do intelligent and wise Leaders lead by example, or do hypocrites make good leaders?
6) Is your GOD omnipotent (infinitely knows all there can infinitely ever be known?)
7) Who at that point would be responsible for when some parent drowns their children in a bathtub for their sins, or when someone commits genocide?
It's pretty much exactly what Island of Dr Monroe was referencing to.. You can't blame the beasts of your creations, fore their faults are that of your own doing! Nor can you lead by hypocrisy and expect those to follow your laws to which yourself chooses not to follow. Now go Back and read Genesis.
Is that really the best you can do?
Really? Do you even understand why you failed? What part about "try replying without energy, information, material physicality,existence, spatial capacity, matter ect" did you not comprehend? Of course you failed!
I don't understand this part of your post. I thought what I stated here was clearly relevant to the discussion we're having.
This discussion pertains to all GODS, and not just the Christian GOD. Christianity is more specifically used in this argument because Creationism is actually impossible, nor would it be required.
Magical? Place of non-existence? Obviously, if you were a Christian, you'd understand where I'm coming from as I don't state belief in God is a magical idea, neither is God in a place of non-existence. In fact where do I even state that?
To put this gently, if your GOD is made of something, your argument completely fails. Hence bound to material physicality. If you try to state it's made of non-material (nothing), The GOD concept still fails and self-collapses. Hence, not the answer to existence as it would just be another product of existence. You need to learn what infinite regress is and why no mind, or entity could ever solve infinite regress.
It will need a place to exist in, something to be made of, and a complexity at least greater than zero. Just like the rest of us!
Existence itself is the cause to all that exists and can exist. Not some entity you want to worship as A GOD since itself is bound and slave to those very same rules! It can't create that which itself requires to exist. Minds can only be observers and processors of reality, they can not actually create it. Conscious beings can however manipulate it on a very limited scale, such as building cities.
The question "Who built your God" is a logical fallacy if one truly understands how God is defined. God IS. That's it.
Incorrect. Your god requires to be made of something (material physicality), requires information to even know itself exists, requires information to even be conscious, must have a place to exist, must be more complex than ground state (zero), and must be bound to the rules of time... Sorry kiddo but your so called GOD is a logical fallacy. It can't solve infinite regress, and requires far more cause to exist than you are willing to admit. In fact it would require more cause to exist then either you or I.
It's slave to the rules of existence to which itself can not create!
Your biggest problem, Existence doesn't require your GOD to exist! Your really have it ass backwards.
Really? Is that the best you got? Calling Christianity a "copy and paste" religion by assuming it was borrowed from a Sun God? 6 What relevance is it when one says that atheism is nothing but a rehash of Epicurus? Does that really weaken atheism?
This tells me that you know very little about how Christianity was formed. And how would that ever weaken Atheism? GOD's are conceptually not applicable to many atheists because power and control aren't attributes worthy of worship. Entities are irrelevant, especially in regards to opinionated concepts
such as GODS.
A religion that has aspects of truth doesn't falsify Christianity.
There are a a lot of things that Falsify Christianity.Example: Genesis 1:29 Then God said
, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food."
Many humans have died, or have gotten severely ill discovering that even a potato is only edible if you don't eat the green parts. Here is but a very very very small list... there are thousands of fruits, or seed bearing plants and trees that can not be consumed!
POKEWEED (Pokeberry), Phytolacca, roots and fruit are dangerous
RHODODENDRON, (Azalea), all parts are fatal
ACOKANTHERA, fruit and flowers
AGAPANTHUS, African lily, foliage and bulb
AMSINKIA (Tarweed), foliage and seeds
AMARYLLIS, A. belladonna digitalis, bulbs contain alkaloids; berries and other parts
ATROPA BELLADONNA, all parts, especially black berries
AZALEAS (RHODODENDRON), all parts are fatal!
BANEBERRY, (Doll's Eyes), red or white berries, roots and foliage
BEGONIA, tubers, foliage and blossoms
BLACK LOCUST, bark, sprouts and foliage.. Potentially fatal!
BUCKEYE HORSE CHESTNUT, sprouts and nuts can be fatal
CASTOR BEAN, seeds are fatal!
CHERRIES, Prunus (wild and cultivated), twigs and foliage are fatal!
CHERRY LAUREL, all parts are very dangerous; contains hydrocyanic acid - Fatal
CHINA BERRY TREE, Melia, berries are poisonous and fatal
CHRISTMAS BERRY, (Toyo), berries are poisonous and potentially fatal <--- How Ironic!
CHINA BERRY TREE, Melia, berries are poisonous
CREEPING CHARLIE, black or blue - potentially fatal
CROCUS, all bulbs - potentially fatal
DAPHNE, Laurus, the berries are fatal!
DAFFODIL, (Narcissus), bulbs are fatal
DAPHNE, the berries are fatal!
DEATH-CAMAS, all parts are poisonous, roots are fatal!
FOXGLOVE, Digitalis purpurea, whole plant can be fatal
GOLDEN CHAIN, seeds and pods may be fatal
LANTANA CAMARA (Red Sage), green berries are fatal
LARKSPUR, (Delphinium), foliage and roots are dangerous, seeds may be fatal!
MISTLETOE, berries are fatal!
MOONSEED, berries may be fatal
MOUNTAIN LAUREL, young leaves and shoots are fatal!
POISON HEMLOCK, all parts are fatal!
POTATO, sprouts and foliage are fatal!
RHODODENDRON, (Azalea), all parts are fatal
Try arguing something based on its own merits. Your ways to show similarities to other religions is a form of desperation at this point.
Actually I do
In fact the bible is poorly written.. And that is being polite..Sorry but the bible can not be considered a history book what-so-ever.. It's utterly laughable to even suggest it is.. The fact that it was written by man completely invalidates it. Much of what is written was stolen from other far more ancient religions than Christianity. It has more contradictions in it than I can even remember atm. Anyone that believes mosses parted the sea or that the world flooded a thousand plus feet above sea level, or that anything in Genesis actually makes any sense is delusional.. The bible only has historical value to itself where it might have embellished stories of common events that scared the piss out of them..
WORSE YET, CHRISTIANITY IS THE WORSHIPING OF A SUN GOD!
But lets look at very problematic issues with the Bible:
1) plagiarism, contradiction, and unoriginality of the Bible
lets get into some fun stuff while we are at it.. Let's see how much you even know about your religion and why it's entirely false and a form of plagiarism, or at the very least a perfect example of a copy / paste religion.
Jesus and Hercules
*Overcame the serpent and assassination attempts during infancy.
*Divine Father and Mortal Mother.
*Consoled mother upon time of death with reference to Heaven
*Final words: "It is finished"
Jesus and Dionysushttp://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/dionysus.html
*Dionysus was the god of wine, agriculture, and fertility of nature
*Divine Father, Mortal Virgin Mother
*Healed the sick
*Turned water into wine
*Killed, and resurrected to immortality
*Depicted on a Donkey
*Death was greatest accomplishment delivering humanity
The Epic of Gilgamesh and Noah's Arkhttp://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab1.htm
*Worldwide flood caused by rain would destroy everything
*A single righteous man: Ut-Napishtim or Noah
*The main characters were instructed to build an ark of wood with compartments, and have a single door
*The arc settled on a mountain in the Middle East
*Two birds returned to the ark, but not the third
*An animal was offered as a sacrifice upon landing
*The Gods in both stories expressed remorse for what they did
*Body chopped up and scattered throughout the nation - Judges 20:6
*Rose from the grave to judge the souls of the dead
The First video explains why Christianity is the Worshiping of a SUN GOD! And explains the birth of JESUS and why Jesus Birthday celebrated on Dec 25th.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw&feature=player_embeddedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKZhd3mJeBE&feature=player_embedded
2) One or More than one GOD?:
23. There is but one God
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7
3) Jesus's Story Plagiarized / Copied and Pasted
Note: I lost the source site to the list below..
The story of Jesus is plagiarized from other religions far more ancient than Christianity. This goes beyond Judaism. The bulk can be directly traced to Egyptian religion and worship of the sun god, Horus, who happens to share many important features with Jesus. These features are so identical, the issue cannot be due to coincidence. This is not to say that Horus is the only Pagan god with similar features, but he is one of the most identical to Jesus. Others might be Mithra, Krishna, Dionysus, Attis, or Zoroaster.
1. His mother was a virgin woman: Jesus, Attis, Buddha, Dionysus, Krishna, Mithra, Zoroaster
2. He was born on December 25: Jesus, Attis, Buddha, Dionysus, Horus, Krishna, Mithra
3. His earthly (adopted) father was a carpenter: Jesus, Krishna
4. His birth was signaled by a heavenly star: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Krishna
5. At his birth, shepherds presented him with gifts: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Krishna, Mithra
6. He was born in a manger or a cave: Jesus, Dionysus, Mithra
7. As a baby, he is declared a king. Wise men present him with gifts of gold: Jesus, Buddha, Krishna
8. Angels or other good divine spirits sang songs or danced at his birth: Jesus, Buddha, Krishna
9. He was threatened by a king or tyrant who tried to kill him as an infant: Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Moses
10. He was of royal lineage: Jesus, Buddha, Horus
11. He taught at the temple as a child and astounded all who heard him with his wisdom: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Zoroaster
12. He was baptized at a river: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Zoroaster
13. His hapless baptizer is later decapitated: Jesus, Horus
14. He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil: Jesus, Zoroaster
15. He was a traveling teacher of great wisdom: Jesus, Buddha, Dionysus, Mithra
16. His ministry preached a message of charity, peace and love. He lived in poverty and loved the poor: Jesus, Krishna
17. He taught of heaven and hell, revealed mysteries, resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse: Jesus, Zoroaster
18. He gave a famous sermon on a mountain: Jesus, Horus
19. He had 12 disciples: Jesus, Horus, Mithra
20. He gave his disciples the power to work miracles: Jesus, Krishna
21. He was transfigured in front of his disciples, sometimes described as shining as the sun: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Krishna
22. He healed the sick and the injured: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Krishna, Mithra, Serapis, Zoroaster
23. He cast out demons: Jesus, Horus, Zoroaster
24. He fed hundreds or thousands with magically generated food: Jesus, Buddha
25. He walked on water: Jesus, Buddha, Horus
26. He brought back the dead: Jesus, Horus
27. He turned water into wine: Jesus, Dionysus
28. His followers were admonished to take vows of poverty and renounce worldly desires: Jesus, Buddha
29. He was called such exalted titles as "Lord", "Master", "Light of the World", "Holy One", "Redeemer", "The Way", "The Truth", etc.: Jesus, Buddha, Dionysus, Horus, Krishna, Mithra
30. He is called "Logos" or "The Word": Jesus, Horus, Krishna, Mithra, Prometheus, Zoroaster
31. He was called "the anointed one" (how "Christ" translates): Jesus, Dionysus, Horus
32. He was known to his followers as a Shepherd of Humanity: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Mithra, Serapis
33. He was known as a fisher, associated with the fish: Jesus, Horus
34. He's identified with the ram or lamb: Jesus, Dionysus, Horus, Mithra
35. He's identified with the lion: Jesus, Horus, Krishna, Mithra
36. He came not to destroy but to fulfill the law: Jesus, Buddha, Horus
37. He rode in a triumphal procession on a donkey: Jesus, Dionysus
38. He condemned the clergy for their ambition and hypocrisy. He would later fall victim to their scheming: Jesus, Krishna
39. He crushed a serpent's head: Jesus, Buddha, Krishna
40. Declared the savior of humanity, slain for our salvation: Jesus, Attis, Krishna, Mithra
41. He sometimes is known by a heart symbol: Jesus, Krishna
42. His body and/or blood is consumed through bread/wine in a symbolic ritual: Jesus, Attis, Dionysus, Mithra, Zoroaster
43. He had a sacred cup or grail: Jesus, Zoroaster
44. He died while hung from a cross or a tree: Jesus, Attis, Buddha, Dionysus, Horus, Krishna
45. His good friend, a fisherman named Peter/Petraeus, would desert him: Jesus, Prometheus
46. He was crucified between two thieves: Jesus, Horus, Krishna
47. He was around the age of 30 when he was crucified: Jesus, Krishna
48. At his death, the sun darkened or there were other grim supernatural signs: Jesus, Krishna
49. He went to the underworld for three days: Jesus, Attis, Mithra
50. He was resurrected: Jesus, Attis, Buddha, Dionysus, Horus, Krishna, Mithra
51. He was resurrected during the springtime, the date of which would become a day of celebration among his followers: Jesus, Attis, Dionysus, Mithra
52. His sacred day is Sunday: Jesus, Mithra
53. He is the second part of a divine trinity and/or considered to be one with his father god: Jesus, Attis, Krishna
54. He promises to return one day: Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Krishna, Zoroaster
55. When he comes again, he will ride on a white horse to do battle with the prince of evil: Jesus, Krishna
4) Magical Unicorns!:
"His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends."
And More Plagiarism or unoriginality: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/Embryo/BiblecopyGreek.htmlhttp://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=18212437&blogId=513421273
Fine, there is a chaotic element of positive, negative, and neutral. How is it that positive and negatives never cancel each other out
They do, a lot. A simple collapse of wave function in electrodynamics is a perfect example. And you are also forgetting that order from chaos is the result from positive, and negative feedback. Order lies at the very edge of chaos. When such things cancel out, you get neutral states, or different results and outcomes. If you really want to dig deep into this subject, really take the time to study it.
Forgive me if you already explained it or I missed it, but I need to understand more of this. In the meantime, is this what at present many people use to show that God doesn't exist?
On a forum? They do make science books you know
, Internet is a good search tool as well. I'm not going to spend all year teaching you physics, or the entire sum of everything man currently knows. I provided you with a very basic understanding to where the most important aspects of understanding is found in those 3 laws, and ground state. The rest is semantics technically speaking.
Really? So in other words, I am a rejecter of science by using the Anselmian argument? How? How is I'm no different than a flat-earther? Don't flat-earthers deny what they see? I simply just don't deny what I don't see. Maybe I'm ignorant. It's telling that if you can compare me to flat-earthers, then by all means tell me how am I rejecting science?
Did you scientifically validate any of your arguments? Such as that very argument that got you into a logical fallacy that tries to fly in the face of the laws of existence? These laws that can not possibly be written or broken but rather followed and subjected to require in order to exist? You are rejecting the scientific method by making up things as you go along without even being able to back yourself up. What do you expect when you say your GOD exists outside all that exists?
Precisely! It would collapse the whole idea of God. Before Christ even came, theists believed this.
That really proves how much of a fallacy it is. Besides, the concept is purely reliant on your opinion anyways. Other opinions already nullify it. Opinionated concepts are irrelevant.
That's deism. Is that what you believe?
I don't believe in the concepts of GODS, it's simply not applicable what-so-ever regardless if an entity even existed. Either all things are GODS, or there are no GODS at all.
Have you also used to profess that God is beyond anything that can be fathomed?
You do understand the very contradiction of your post correct? If you have a concept in your head, you have fathomed it. The argument here used however is merely an excuse to believe when it's existence has shown to be irrelevant, impossible, or subjected to the arguments above. It's more Carl Segan's Dragon, and that gets you nowhere in a debate.
God is an impossible concept, I agree. But once again, you limit your beliefs to what you see.
Please stop formulating contradictions
I know you don't like hearing that. I'm not trying to resort to any argument to convince you anything. I am trying to show you how I personally believe. I know you won't be convinced. I didn't think what I said will convince you at all. I'm simply trying to have a conversation and maybe try to understand where you're coming from, but you're making it impossible, and you resort to attacks. I'm sorry you feel this way.
You need to get more realistic with your concept before it can be considered even plausible. BTW, you are getting handed the hammer because you keep making irrational and nonsensical arguments. There is so much dishonest discourse in your arguments that it's literally ridiculous.
You're right. It's not easy to believe in God. It takes practice and consistency to do so
. To me, not believing in God requires one to live in a dumpster for years and not knowing that you smell bad.
You base your faith on dogma?
Believing in God is a sobering experience to me.
Ok, that's fine. But do remember this is irrelevant to the discussion, especially when you are in an atheist thread and engaging in arguments such as this one. I don't have a problem with what you believe, I have a problem when you attempt to rationalize it and profess it as truth within an argument such as this one while making everything up as you go along.. Heck, I could still go by all that I have said above and still believe in a realistic and plausible GOD figure. However, I don't worship anything..It's non-applicable regardless of what exists. Edit:
Please do realize though that there is nothing wrong with what you believe in. Just remember that getting into discussions with opposing views, use honest discourse and arguments.
I think you are probably a nice guy who is passionate about his beliefs, I can respect that because I do know what that is like myself