OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 26, 2014, 03:13:24 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: FUNDAMENTAL DOGMATIC DIFFERENCES BETWEEN CATHOLICISM AND ORTHODOXY  (Read 28398 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2004, 09:18:59 PM »

as true as that may be, it doesn't change the fact that the 1929 ban existed.

Joe Zollars

That is correct only in america. Do you know why is was banned in america back then?
Logged
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2004, 09:30:07 PM »

From what I have read, it was due to the bigotry of the Roman bishops particularly Abp. John Ireland, who did not consider the ER Catholics as truly Catholic thus causing St. Alexis Toth to lead millions of uniates back to the Orthodox Faith and then later when the ruthenian parishes left Rome and eventually formed the ACROD.

All of this just goes to show my original point that Rome only desires union on its terms.  

Joe Zollars
Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2004, 09:47:25 PM »

From what I have read, it was due to the bigotry of the Roman bishops particularly Abp. John Ireland, who did not consider the ER Catholics as truly Catholic thus causing St. Alexis Toth to lead millions of uniates back to the Orthodox Faith and then later when the ruthenian parishes left Rome and eventually formed the ACROD.

All of this just goes to show my original point that Rome only desires union on its terms.  

Joe Zollars

it was a bit more than that.  and it had to do with the catholic church trying to fit- in protestant america and many mistakes where made in order to fit in which hurt other catholics.

why do you blame the bigotry of some on the entire church, joe?

you are doing the same thing that protestants do.  blame the entire church for what some have done. Don't live in the past joe, come forward into the present.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2004, 09:47:46 PM by romanbyzantium » Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2004, 10:33:58 PM »

[violent elimination of an ethnic group: the violent elimination or removal from an area of people attacked because of their ethnic backgrounds, by means of genocide or forced expulsion]

The buzz words here are the last three...OR FORCED EXPULSION.  Which, in case you are unable to comprehend means that 'ethnic cleansing' is not tied into genocide alone but the elimination of someone or something thru various means.  Kind of like all the Carpatho-Russians that were 'ethnically cleansed' from their villages which came under Polish RC rule during WWII and had their churches turned into RC churches.  Including my grandparents.

[2. you brought him up and it is up to you to provide the information that I am asking for.]

It is not up to me to provide anything.  If you disagree with what I write it is up to you to prove me wrong.

[3. The catholic church does exactly what she says. Can you give me an example of what you are talking about?]

The Union of Brest, &  the Quadripartite Agreement to name just two.

[4. your second class comment is useless in that church teaching is clear that all rites are equal as taught by popes and canon law.]

Then how come -

1)  The UGCC needs to get approval from the Pope in order to declare a 'Patriarchate'?

2)  The UGCC bishops here in the US have to submit their retirements to the Pope for approval?

3)  The last UGCC Bishops in the UGCC here in the US were consecrated by Papal representatives rather than Cardianl Husar?

4)  That a married man has to be approved by Rome before he can be ordained here in the US?

Do you want me to start quoting some of the Canons of the Eastern Churches to show you that Rome still has the authority to say 'jump'  and those within those sui juris churches still have to answer 'How High?'  Where is the equality in a set up like that?

Orthodoc


« Last Edit: April 23, 2004, 10:38:38 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2004, 10:53:54 PM »

[violent elimination of an ethnic group: the violent elimination or removal from an area of people attacked because of their ethnic backgrounds, by means of genocide or forced expulsion]

The buzz words here are the last three...OR FORCED EXPULSION.  Which, in case you are unable to comrehend means that 'ethnic cleansing' is not tied into genocide alone but the elimination of someone or something thru various means.  Kind of like all the Carpatho-Russians that were 'ethnically cleansed' from their villages which came under Polish RC rule during WWII and had their churches turned into RC churches.  Including my grandparents.

[2. you brought him up and it is up to you to provide the information that I am asking for.]

It is not up to me to provide anything.  If you disagree with what I write it is up to you to prove me wrong.

[3. The catholic church does exactly what she says. Can you give me an example of what you are talking about?]

The Union of Brest, &  the Quadripartite Agreement to name just two.

[4. your second class comment is useless in that church teaching is clear that all rites are equal as taught by popes and canon law.]

The how come -

1)  The UGCC needs to get approval from the Pope in order to declare a 'Patriarchate'?

2)  The UGCC bishops here in the US have to submit their retirements to the Pope for approval?

3)  The last UGCC Bishops in the UGCC here in the US were consecrated by Papal representatives rather than Cardianl Husar?

4)  That a married man has to be approved by Rome before he can be ordained here in the US?

Do you want me to start quoting some of the Canons of the Eastern Churches to show you that Rome still has the authority to say 'jump'  and those within those sui juris churches still have to answer 'How High?'  Where is the equality in a set up like that?

Orthodoc




1. I see, since the definition didn't quite support your claim now we are bringing in WWII. If you want to bring that up lets also bring up the russian carving of poland and the ethnic cleansing of the poles. why doesn't russia return all that polish land that they took from them during WWII ,1772, 1793, and 1795 and return those people to their proper cultural heritage. also, these people where forced to convert to orthdoxy.  should I go on, ORTHODOC. You never know Orthodoc, perhaps you are really polish and not even know it. You could be a victim of the russians and the russian orthodox church. do you see how this works?

2. I don't have to prove you wrong, orthodoc. that is not the way it works. you have to provide the source of where you got your information. you haven't done that, OTHODOC.

3. quote away, Orthodoc. they have autonomy ( self governing day-to-day. it hadndles its own affairs...that is what sui iurus means) but the pope still has a right to intervene as the unifying person of the church. Hello, Othodoc, communion with Rome always implies recognizing the Pope's authority. You know the way it was before the russian church declared its independence from constantinople.

4. I suggest that you read the encyclicals from rome regarding the eastern catholics. you are so misinformed.

5. your 4 points are so ridiculous. married priests are allowed, they don't need pope approval since he said go ahead with your traditions. the pope as the head of the catholic church creates dioceses, patriarchate, etc.., onsecration is concencration.

6. give me examples from The Union of Brest, &  the Quadripartite Agreement that you see that rome has negated on.



« Last Edit: April 23, 2004, 11:21:39 PM by romanbyzantium » Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2004, 11:22:06 PM »

[You never know Orthodoc, perhaps you are really polish and not even know it. You could be a victim of the russians and the russian orthodox church. do you see how this works?]

Actually I am part Polish and well aware of it.  My paternal grandmother was born and raised in Poland.  I am also part Croation and Carpatho-Russian.  What's your point?
However, my maternal grandmothers church is also in what is now part of Poland.  Only her village was 'ethnically cleansed' and the  Uniate church she was baptised in and grew up in is now a Polish RCC.

 [you have to provide the source of where you got your information. you haven't done that, OTHODOC.]

I have already done that by provideing you with the dates of Bishop Elko's birth thru death.
You seem to have a reading comprehension problem.  There seems to be no sinse in giving you references because you either don't seem to access them or can't comprehend what they say.

Believe me, if anything I said regarding Bishop Elko was wrong there would have been replies by the Byzantine Catholic's that are members of this discussion group by now.

[but the pope still has a right to intervene as the unifying person of the church.]

And how does that intervention give him an equal status with the church he has the authority  to intervene in?

From your posts I really don't think you are interested in an intelligent conversation.  

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2004, 11:24:28 PM »

[You never know Orthodoc, perhaps you are really polish and not even know it. You could be a victim of the russians and the russian orthodox church. do you see how this works?]

Actually I am part Polish and well aware of it.  My paternal grandmother was born and raised in Poland.  I am also part Croation and Carpatho-Russian.  What's your point?
However, my maternal grandmothers church is also in what is now part of Poland.  Only her village was 'ethnically cleansed' and the  Uniate church she was baptised in and grew up in is now a Polish RCC.

 [you have to provide the source of where you got your information. you haven't done that, OTHODOC.]

I have already done that by provideing you with the dates of Bishop Elko's birth thru death.
You seem to have a reading comprehension problem.  There seems to be no sinse in giving you references because you either don't seem to access them or can't comprehend what they say.

Believe me, if anything I said regarding Bishop Elko was wrong there would have been replies by the Byzantine Catholic's that are members of this discussion group by now.

[but the pope still has a right to intervene as the unifying person of the church.]

And how does that intervention give him an equal status with the church he has the authority  to intervene in?

From your posts I really don't think you are interested in an intelligent conversation.  

Orthodoc


Orthodoc, I am interested in intelligent conversation but, youare only interested in winning an argument.
Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2004, 11:41:45 PM »

[Orthodoc, I am interested in intelligent conversation but, youare only interested in winning an argument. ]

Ha, ha, ha, ha!  Ever look in the mirror my friend!

Orthodoc
     
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2004, 11:52:35 PM »

[Orthodoc, I am interested in intelligent conversation but, youare only interested in winning an argument. ]

Ha, ha, ha, ha!  Ever look in the mirror my friend!

Orthodoc
     


yeah... one good looking chap. kissing the mirror  Kiss

All I want is for you to be fair about catholicism but you are not. everthing that you write is so negative and accussatory as if the orthodox have such a stellar clean record. Do you really believe that the orthodox haven't persecuted catholics? Both sides have done many horrible things to each other but you can't live in the pass and you can't pretend that your side in an innocent little white lamb that has been picked on by the big bad wolf.

You know my pope has asked forgiveness of my church's sins. we also forgive those that have harmed us also. and that includes the orthodox church and their governments.

we now move on without looking back. the orthodox should learn from example from this very old polish pope. we are at peace with God and jesus. are guilt is erased and forgotten.
Logged
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2004, 12:40:28 AM »

Quote
You have presented the schismatic traditionalist line which the Catholic Church rejects.  No matter what Vatican II said?  Vatican II is an authoritative council of the Catholic Church.  Read its documents and those of Pope John Paul II.  Read Dominus Iesus.  Put down the SSPX material.

First of all I am not denying Vatican II was a Council of the Church, but Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI made it clear is was a pastoral one, not a dogmatic one.

With that said I would like to say that your "put down the SSPX material" is hogwash, I said nothing that was contrary to offical RCC teaching. And plus I do not even attend an SSPX parish, I did some time ago, but no longer do.

The Society of St. Pius X is not schismatic, I will not argue this here, but PM me if you wish to discuss it further. This is a Catholic-Orthodox discussion forum, not one that I want to fill with debates over SSPX.

As for the traditional movement, there has been no condemnation by Rome. If anything Rome has given into time and time again, but not always for the right reasons, FSSP is a perfect example of this.

Quote
As to the Filioque, please read The Father as the Source of the Whole Trinity:
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1176

It is a DOGMA of the Catholic Church that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, as ONE source. No one can deny this!

The 2nd Council of Lyons in 1274 makes it clear: "...we confess that the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one; not by two spirations but by one."

The Council of Florence in 1438 explains: "The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has his nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration. . . . And, since the Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son."

First Vatican Council, 1869-1870 "Dogmatic Constitution on the Principal Mysteries of the Faith" states: "For from all eternity the Father generates the Son, not in producing by emanation another essence equal to his own, but in communicating his own simple essence. And in like manner, the Holy Spirit proceeds, not by a multiplication of the essence, but he proceeds by a communication of the same singular essence by one eternal spiration from the Father and the Son as from one principle."

The Roman Catechism (The offical Roman Catholic catechism, 1566-1994) I.8.6. states: With regard to the words immediately succeeding: "who proceeds from the Father and the Son," the faithful are to be taught that the Holy Spirit proceeds, by eternal procession, from the Father and the Son as from one principle. This is a truth taught to us by the rule of the Church from which the least departure is unwarrantable on the part of Christians.

The Catholic Church has declared the Filioque a dogma, just like Papal Infallibility and the Immaculate Conception. To deny the doctrine of the Filioque in anyway is to place yourself in heresy, for the Catholic Church teaches, and always has, those who deny and reject the dogmas of the Church are in heresy.

Please understand that I'm not saying this to offend any Orthodox Christians, I'm just trying to point out that you can't be a Catholic and deny the Filioque, or think it can be shoved off to the side for sake of union.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but it frustrates me to see dogmas shoved off to the side and redeffined for the sake of union.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2004, 05:10:15 PM by Ben » Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2004, 11:21:06 AM »

[All I want is for you to be fair about catholicism but you are not. everthing that you write is so negative and accussatory as if the orthodox have such a stellar clean record.]

Everything I write is historical fact and usually in response to some misinformation posted regarding Orthodoxy.  

As far as your Pope asking for forgiveness...I admire him for that, I really do.  But we Orthodox have learned over the last 1000+ years that where the RCC is concerned actions speak louder than words.  Thats why we choose the 'wait and see attitude' for the present time.  And so far the actions do not necessary correspond to the words.

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2004, 11:35:26 AM »

[All I want is for you to be fair about catholicism but you are not. everthing that you write is so negative and accussatory as if the orthodox have such a stellar clean record.]

Everything I write is historical fact and usually in response to some misinformation posted regarding Orthodoxy.  

As far as your Pope asking for forgiveness...I admire him for that, I really do.  But we Orthodox have learned over the last 1000+ years that where the RCC is concerned actions speak louder than words.  Thats why we choose the 'wait and see attitude' for the present time.  And so far the actions do not necessary correspond to the words.

Orthodoc

You leave out alot of historical facts when it suits you and the action of orthodoxy against other christians.

you are unbelievable Orthodoc! you act like a person that has been jilted by a lover. what present actions do not necessary correspond to the words? please some examples?
Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2004, 01:48:02 PM »

[You leave out alot of historical facts when it suits you and the action of orthodoxy against other christians.]

If I leave out some historical facts regarding Orthodoxy against other christians why don't you fill in those blanks so we can discuss them?
You make accusations without giving specifics just as you never answer any of my questions directed towards you.

[what present actions do not necessary correspond to the words? please some examples?]

I could name quite a few but we have rehashed them so many times here already that it would be useless to rehash them for the umpteenth time.  Just do a search of the archives if possible on lets say...the Quadripartite Agreement and how about the Pope using one of Russia's Holiest Icons as a bribe to visit Russia!  

As I stated I don't intend to rehash either subject again.  I have said all that needs to be said already.  I'm just giving you two PRESENT actions that show Rc actions speak louder than their empty words.

Orthodoc

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2004, 05:34:34 PM »

[You leave out alot of historical facts when it suits you and the action of orthodoxy against other christians.]

If I leave out some historical facts regarding Orthodoxy against other christians why don't you fill in those blanks so we can discuss them?
You make accusations without giving specifics just as you never answer any of my questions directed towards you.

[what present actions do not necessary correspond to the words? please some examples?]

I could name quite a few but we have rehashed them so many times here already that it would be useless to rehash them for the umpteenth time.  Just do a search of the archives if possible on lets say...the Quadripartite Agreement and how about the Pope using one of Russia's Holiest Icons as a bribe to visit Russia!  

As I stated I don't intend to rehash either subject again.  I have said all that needs to be said already.  I'm just giving you two PRESENT actions that show Rc actions speak louder than their empty words.

Orthodoc



1. Oh, you mean the agreement which you wanted the greek catholics destroyed. The same agreement that the greeks catholic rejected.

2. You mean the Holy Icon of Karzan. He wants to personally return it. why the objection? where is the bribe? anyways russian/orthodox official claim that the icon is not the original. why should he even return it. it was a gift to the pope from a group of catholic nuns. But if he wants to give it to russia it is his right.

3. btw, when is russia/orthodox church going to return the property that it stole from the  greek byzantine catholics?

Logged
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #59 on: April 24, 2004, 05:42:12 PM »

I think it is interesting that church property, broken agreements, proselytizing, etc. still divide east and west more than the dogmatic differences. On both sides people seem to be more wrapped up in Church politics and material disputes, than what really seperates us: the fundamental dogmatic differences.
Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,955


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2004, 06:01:15 PM »

"So, why then, did the good Bishop Elko flee to Rome in the 50's where he was protected by the Pope & the Vatican until he returned 14 years later as a Latin Rite Bishop?

Perhaps Father Deacon Lance can provide you with more information on the Byzantine Catholic Bishop who was famous for claiming that he would not rest until..."All the stink was squeezed from the Onion Domes and all the grease from the greasy Greeks'!
As he was taking down the Cupolas, 3 bar Crosses,  Iconstasis.  And replacing them with statues and Latin Altars imported from Italy.

I'm not a Byzantine Catholic.  Ask them.  Perhaps Father Deacon Lance can tell you why he had such a hatred for anything that looked or sounded too 'Orthodox'.  Apparently he looked upon himself as a second class (papal) Catholic being of the Byzantine Rite.

Ask those Byzantine Catholics who post here.  Read the history I provided and look up the statistics for the Hierachs in the Ohio RC diocese.  Bishop Elko was not a very nice man.  Most Byzantine Catholics, with good reason, would rather forget he existed."

As far as Archbishop Nicholas goes:

He did not flee to Rome but was "called to Rome" quite against his wishes and made ordaining bishop for Byzantine Catholics, i.e he was there to ordain seminarians in Rome.  If you are familiar with the corporate term "being kicked up" that is what happened.  He did not want to be in Rome.  He was being punished not protected.  He was made a titluar archbishop, I assume in hopes of appeasing him.  He finally was allowed to return to the US but only after he agreed to a canonical change of Churches from the Byzantine to the Latin Church and was assigned to Cincinatti as an auxillary bishop.

As to Orthodoc's quote I have no knowledge of it.  Onion domes, three bar crosses, and icons have always been used by my Church.  Statues were sometimes used, but were limited and in almost all cases secondary.  Iconostasis were, unfortunately removed or not put in new Churches during Archbishop Nicholas' tenure, my own parish being one of them.  The result was usually an Icon of Christ to the right and the Mother of God to the left of the altar. Latin style (rectangular and up one, two or three steps) altars were in use before Archbishop Nicholas.  He did refuse to promulgate the 1941 Ordo which was a to be a return to more traditional Rusyn practice.

Archbishop Nicholas was also a former pastor of my parish.  While I did not know him those from my parish that did liked him immensely.  One of his last acts was to come to Canonsburg to marry a parishioner.  This was in the Latin parish, the girl was marrying a Latin Catholic man.  I think it unfair to say he was not a nice man.  A bad administrator, wrong in the direction he wanted for our Church but it is wrong to deride the man as a person.  From what I understand the faithful of Cincinatti were very fond of him as well.  

One good thing he did was introduce English and this quite shrewdly.  Rather than do it himself and be accused of abandoning OCS he had the immensely popular Archbishop Fulton Sheen (in full Byzantine vesture) celebrate the first English Divine Liturgy at the annual Uniontown Pilgrimage.  English was introduced without protest and slowly became the primary liturgical language.

Fr. Deacon Lance
« Last Edit: April 24, 2004, 06:02:11 PM by Deacon Lance » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,955


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #61 on: April 24, 2004, 06:09:25 PM »

Ben,

"First of all I am not denying Vatican II was a Council of the Church, but Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI made it clear is was a pastoral one, not a dogmatic one."

Then what do make of the two DOGMATIC Constitutions Vatican II issued.

"The Society of St. Pius X is not schismatic"

It certainly is and was formally declared so by Pope John Paul II.

I again refer you to the Church's current documents.

Fr. Deacon Lance
 
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #62 on: April 24, 2004, 06:35:28 PM »



"The Society of St. Pius X is not schismatic"

It certainly is and was formally declared so by Pope John Paul II.


I will not get into this, for this is not the place to aruge over SSPX. I have a MSN group with some info on SSPX. Please take a look:

http://groups.msn.com/CATHOLIC101/sspx.msnw

http://groups.msn.com/CATHOLIC101/sspxschismaticornot.msnw <this is under construction but all that needs to be done is some format stuff...like font, etc.

I also suggest you read the consencration sermon of Archbishop Lefebvre, June 30th 1988:

http://www.romancatholicism.org/lef-cons-sermon.html

Look, I am not trying to say that the SSPX isn't in an irregular position with several complications. As I said I do not attend an SSPX parish, because I realize the irregular position of the SSPX, and their questionable status. I'm just saying I don't think SSPX is schismatic, in my opinion.

I think it's strange that faithful Catholics are quick to call SSPX schismatic, because Archbishop Lefebvre ordained bishops without Papal approval, but they won't call the Orthodox Church schismatic for breaking off from Rome (offical Catholic teaching) and say it's in heresy for rejecting Catholic dogmas like the Filioque and Papal Infallibilty.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2004, 06:57:31 PM by Ben » Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
The young fogey
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,758


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #63 on: April 24, 2004, 07:12:50 PM »

Quote
3. btw, when is russia/orthodox church going to return the property that it stole from the  greek byzantine catholics?

The latter already took it back in the southwestern Ukraine when the USSR was collapsing.
Logged

Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #64 on: April 24, 2004, 07:22:32 PM »

Ha. Elko was basically held prisoner in the Vatican, not protected, for much of the time he was there.
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #65 on: April 24, 2004, 08:48:21 PM »

I think it is interesting that church property, broken agreements, proselytizing, etc. still divide east and west more than the dogmatic differences. On both sides people seem to be more wrapped up in Church politics and material disputes, than what really seperates us: the fundamental dogmatic differences.

What I don't understand is why does orthodox church want the byzantine catholics gone?
Logged
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #66 on: April 24, 2004, 08:59:18 PM »

I will not get into this, for this is not the place to aruge over SSPX. I have a MSN group with some info on SSPX. Please take a look:

http://groups.msn.com/CATHOLIC101/sspx.msnw

http://groups.msn.com/CATHOLIC101/sspxschismaticornot.msnw <this is under construction but all that needs to be done is some format stuff...like font, etc.

I also suggest you read the consencration sermon of Archbishop Lefebvre, June 30th 1988:

http://www.romancatholicism.org/lef-cons-sermon.html

Look, I am not trying to say that the SSPX isn't in an irregular position with several complications. As I said I do not attend an SSPX parish, because I realize the irregular position of the SSPX, and their questionable status. I'm just saying I don't think SSPX is schismatic, in my opinion.

I think it's strange that faithful Catholics are quick to call SSPX schismatic, because Archbishop Lefebvre ordained bishops without Papal approval, but they won't call the Orthodox Church schismatic for breaking off from Rome (offical Catholic teaching) and say it's in heresy for rejecting Catholic dogmas like the Filioque and Papal Infallibilty.

Ben,

The catholic church does call SSPX schimatical just like orthodoxy.
Logged
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #67 on: April 24, 2004, 09:05:43 PM »

What I don't understand is why does orthodox church want the byzantine catholics gone?

I don't think the Orthodox Church as a whole, or even the majority of Orthodox Christians want the Eastern rites, some of which have no Orthodox counterparts, of the Catholic Church to be gone.

I personally think many Orthodox Christians don't like or appreciate the Catholic Church using the eastern rites as tools in eastern europe to convert practicing Orthodox Christians. And plus who wouldn't have a bad taste in their mouth for the Eastern rite after hearing just one Eastern rite Catholic person or parish calling themself "Orthodox in union with Rome".

That would make anybody a little frustrated.
Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #68 on: April 24, 2004, 09:12:27 PM »

I don't think the Orthodox Church as a whole, or even the majority of Orthodox Christians want the Eastern rites, some of which have no Orthodox counterparts, of the Catholic Church to be gone.

I personally think many Orthodox Christians don't like or appreciate the Catholic Church using the eastern rites as tools in eastern europe to convert practicing Orthodox Christians. And plus who wouldn't have a bad taste in their mouth for the Eastern rite after hearing just one Eastern rite Catholic person or parish calling themself "Orthodox in union with Rome".

That would make anybody a little frustrated.

I don't believe that practicing orthodox convert at all. These are people that are unchurch or came to catholicism on their own. I don't think that we are handing out tracks like the protestants in front of their churches and street corners.

Communion with rome doesn't mean uniformity.
Logged
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« Reply #69 on: April 24, 2004, 09:13:05 PM »

hmm, the way I see it, the Orthodox I have spoken to say they feel that the position of hte Uniates is very sad and hope for their return to their mother, the Orthodox Church.

Joe Zollars
Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #70 on: April 24, 2004, 09:14:33 PM »

Ben,

The catholic church does call SSPX schimatical just like orthodoxy.

Really? So you are admitting that it is the official Catholic Church teaching that the Orthodox Church is schismatic? But in the "A question on proselytizing" thread you stated:

"Also, I have to add that this same attitude exists within groups of traditionalist within catholicism too. They regard orthodoxy as utterly heretical/schismatics. But this too needs to be ignored as it doesn't represent the teachings of the church." (bold mine)

So wait the attitude or opinion that Orthodoxy is schismatic must be ignored, yet you state that it is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Seems to me that you are telling people to ignore the teachings of Catholic Church.

Oh and one last thing......is "schimatical" a word?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2004, 09:31:05 PM by Ben » Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #71 on: April 24, 2004, 09:35:26 PM »

Really? So you are admitting that it is the official Catholic Church teaching that the Orthodox Church is schismatic? But in the "A question on proselytizing" thread you stated:

"Also, I have to add that this same attitude exists within groups of traditionalist within catholicism too. They regard orthodoxy as utterly heretical/schismatics. But this too needs to be ignored as it doesn't represent the teachings of the church." (bold mine)

So wait the attitude or opinion that Orthodoxy is schismatic must be ignored, yet you state that it is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Seems to me that you are telling people to ignore the teachings of Catholic Church.

Oh and one last thing......is "schismatical" a word?


Sorry, I miss spoke. That should  have read:  They are in schism but not heretics. But that tradionalist within catholicism would say that they are heretical/schimatics. the heresy part is what need to be ignored as it is not church teaching.

Logged
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #72 on: April 24, 2004, 09:40:08 PM »

I agree that Orthodox Christians are not heretics, well not the vast majority, according the Catholic defeinition of "heretic". However, since Orthodoxy rejects fundamental dogmas of the Catholic Church, according to Catholic teaching, Orthodoxy is in heresy. The Catholic Church has always taught that those persons and groups or Churches who deny and reject fundamental dogmas of the Catholic Church are in heresy.
Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2004, 09:44:31 PM »

I agree that Orthodox Christians are not heretics, well not the vast majority, according the Catholic defeinition of "heretic". However, since Orthodoxy rejects fundamental dogmas of the Catholic Church, according to Catholic teaching, Orthodoxy is in heresy. The Catholic Church has always taught that those persons and groups or Churches who deny and reject fundamental dogmas of the Catholic Church are in heresy.


But only those who believe that the church is the true church and denies a dogma of the church. I believe that this doesn't apply to the orthodox because it is not their fault that they reject dogmas of the church. You can't blame them for something that their ancestors did.

Are you a traditionalist catholic?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2004, 09:45:04 PM by romanbyzantium » Logged
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2004, 09:54:38 PM »

lol...."you can't blame them for something that their ancesters did". My God do you think that all of the Orthodox Christians are that ignornant and stupid?!

I bet if I asked all of the Orthodox Christians in this forum if they rejected the filioque, Papal Infallibilty, the Immaculate Conception, etc., because they don't believe in these things or because their ancestors didn't, they would all say because they don't believe in these things. Orthodox Christains deny and reject fundamentals of the Catholic faith for the same reasons protestants do, they believe they are a depatrue from pure and true Christian teaching, rather Roman innovations, many of which some Orthodox would consider heretical.

With your definition of heresy, there would be no heresy! The Gnotics, Nestorians, Protestants, Albigensians, etc. would all get off the hook with a simple "its not their fault that they reject dogmas of the Church........they don't know any better, it was their ancestors."

Come now! No one is so much of a fool to think Orthodox Christians don't willingly and knowingly reject Catholic dogmas as false Roman innovations.

I am sorry but if heresy isn't rejecting and fighting against fundamental dogmas of the Church......then what is?!
« Last Edit: April 24, 2004, 10:01:27 PM by Ben » Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2004, 10:05:32 PM »

[What I don't understand is why does orthodox church want the byzantine catholics gone?]

The way we Orthodox look at the issue of the Unia is such -

The original reason the Unia came into being was to deceive the Orthodox into becoming part of  the Roman Catholic Church.  Because at the time of its creation the RCC  looked at us as schismatics and heretics and belived that salvation was only obtainable through the RCC.

But now if they are sincere in what they claim - namely that -

The Orthodox Catholics are the 'other lung' of the same body
That both churches are 'sister' churches
That the Orthodox have valid Sacraments
That salvation can be obtained through the Orthodox Church
That the Orthodox and Uniates share the same faith

Then there no longer either an excuse or valid reason for the Unia to exist as a separate entity and they should be returned to their mother churches from whence they came where they can obtain the same salvation that have with their step mother.

It's as simple as that.

The problem is that the Unia has an identity crisis.  They don't want to be fully Orthodox Catholic but they don't want to be fully Roman Catholic either.

The fact that both the RCC and its sui juris appendage have a problem with the above shows the Orthodox just how empty these statements make are.

Orthodoc

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2004, 10:10:45 PM »

lol...."you can't blame them for something that their ancesters did". My God do you think that all of the Orthodox Christians are ignornant and stupid?! I bet if I asked all of the Orthodox Christians in this forum if they denined the filioque, Papal Infallibilty, the Immaculate Conception, etc., because they don't believe in these things or because their ancestors didn't, they would all say because they don't believe in these things. Orthodox Christains deny and reject fundamentals of the Catholic faith for the same reasons protestants do, they believe they are not true Christian teachings, rather Roman innovations, many Orthodox would consider such teachings heretical.

With your definition of heresy, there would be no heresy! The Gnotics, Nestorians, Protestants, Albigensians, etc. would all get off the hook with a simple "its not their fault that they reject dogmas of the Church........they don't know any better, it was their ancestors."

Come now! No one is so much of a fool to think Orthodox Christians don't willingly and knowingly reject Catholic dogmas as false Roman innovations.

I am sorry but if heresy isn't rejecting and fighting against fundamental dogmas of the Church......then what is?!

1. well the charge of heresy, I believe only applies to us. I can't say that I believe the church to be true then say that the pope is not infallible. You are going to have to check with canon law in this respects. I believe that there is a diference between formal/material heretics.

2. the other heresies that you mentioned are defined by church council when the church was united. anyone that denies them is a heretic and some( protetants, albigensians, etc)  where condemn as heretic by council.

3. they reject them cause they are not in the church.

4. you need to read up on the reasons why the church doesn't consider them heretics.
Logged
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2004, 10:13:17 PM »


The Orthodox Catholics are the 'other lung' of the same body
That both churches are 'sister' churches
That the Orthodox have valid Sacraments
That salvation can be obtained through the Orthodox Church
That the Orthodox and Uniates share the same faith

Most of which are post-Vat II ecumenist positions. That are totally contrary to the offical teachings of the Catholic Church through the ages.
Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2004, 10:15:33 PM »

[I believe that this doesn't apply to the orthodox because it is not their fault that they reject dogmas of the church. You can't blame them for something that their ancestors did. ]

What in God's name are you taliking about?  How can our ancestors have rejected any thing that was never part of the UNDIVIDED CHURCH in the first place?  

Everything we Orthodox Catholics now believe you Roman Catholics also believed.  We have neither added, subtracted, or changed that which was believe everywhere and by all.  You have.

Show us where the entire undivided One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church' believed in Papal Supremacy, Papal Infallibility, Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, or the Filioque.

Orthodoc


Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2004, 10:21:00 PM »

[Most of which are post-Vat II ecumenist positions. That are totally contrary to the offical teachings of the Catholic Church through the ages. ]

Exactly!  And don't you think that we Orthodox are well aware of that?  It's amazing just how many RC's are still duped by the RC word games.  We Orthodox have learned to read between the lines centuries ago.

You know the old saying --- 'Fool me once shame on you!'  'Fool me twice shame on me!'

Orthodoc

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #80 on: April 24, 2004, 10:23:06 PM »


Quote
1. well the charge of heresy, I believe only applies to us. I can't say that I believe the church to be true then say that the pope is not infallible. You are going to have to check with canon law in this respects. I believe that there is a diference between formal/material heretics.

You are most certainly correct, there is a difference between a formal and material heretic. But my point here is that since Orthodoxy rejects several Catholic dogmas, according to Catholic Church teaching and logic, from the Catholic point of view: Orthodoxy very well could and perhaps should be considered a heresy.

Quote
2. the other heresies that you mentioned are defined by church council when the church was united. anyone that denies them is a heretic and some( protetants, albigensians, etc)  where condemn as heretic by council.

The Catholic Church has had many ecumenical councils, which have declared the filioque, Papal Infallibilty, Immaculate Conception, etc. dogmas, and have condemned those who reject these teachings.

The Catholic Church has condemned Protestant teaching, but I do not believe a council was called just to condemn protestanism. If so, please correct me.

Quote
3. they reject them cause they are not in the church.

Exactly....and why are they not in the Catholic Church? Because they don't believe the Catholic Church to be the true Church.

Quote
4. you need to read up on the reasons why the church doesn't consider them heretics.

Is there any offical dogmas, declarations of a Church council, or Papal full clearly stating that Orthodoxy is not in/a heresy, that you could please provide?
Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #81 on: April 24, 2004, 10:23:58 PM »

[What I don't understand is why does orthodox church want the byzantine catholics gone?]

The way we Orthodox look at the issue of the Unia is such -

The original reason the Unia came into being was to deceive the Orthodox into becoming part of  the Roman Catholic Church.  Because at the time of its creation the RCC  looked at us as schismatics and heretics and belived that salvation was only obtainable through the RCC.

But now if they are sincere in what they claim - namely that -

The Orthodox Catholics are the 'other lung' of the same body
That both churches are 'sister' churches
That the Orthodox have valid Sacraments
That salvation can be obtained through the Orthodox Church
That the Orthodox and Uniates share the same faith

Then there no longer either an excuse or valid reason for the Unia to exist as a separate entity and they should be returned to their mother churches from whence they came where they can obtain the same salvation that have with their step mother.

It's as simple as that.

The problem is that the Unia has an identity crisis.  They don't want to be fully Orthodox Catholic but they don't want to be fully Roman Catholic either.

The fact that both the RCC and its sui juris appendage have a problem with the above shows the Orthodox just how empty these statements make are.

Orthodoc



orthodoc,

Do you really believe that they are going to accept going being part of  a church that persecuted them. They want to exist. They have a right to exist. Just as you exist apart from constantinople.

and they don't have an identity problem. they are what they are, byzantine catholics. this is what they call themselves.
Logged
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #82 on: April 24, 2004, 10:27:24 PM »

I want everyone to know that when I talk about Orthodoxy in/a heresy, it is not to offend anyone...it is just simply presenting Catholic teaching, free of post Vat -II ecumenism.

You all know I am torn between east and west, and I do not personally believe Orthodoxy to be a heresy, at this point. But according to RCC teaching and logic, from the Catholic point of view, it would be foolish to deny it, if you were convinced the Catholic Church was the true Church.
Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2004, 10:33:37 PM »

[I believe that this doesn't apply to the orthodox because it is not their fault that they reject dogmas of the church. You can't blame them for something that their ancestors did. ]

What in God's name are you taliking about?  How can our ancestors have rejected any thing that was never part of the UNDIVIDED CHURCH in the first place?  

Everything we Orthodox Catholics now believe you Roman Catholics also believed.  We have neither added, subtracted, or changed that which was believe everywhere and by all.  You have.

Show us where the entire undivided One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church' believed in Papal Supremacy, Papal Infallibility, Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, or the Filioque.

Orthodoc




well orthodoc, you too would have believe them if your church  didn't go into schism.

papal supremacy, filioque, purgatory, immaculate conception can all be read from the church fathers. papal infallibility is taken from scripture where christ command peter to feed his sheep and other passages.
Logged
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #84 on: April 24, 2004, 10:38:26 PM »

I want everyone to know that when I talk about Orthodoxy in/a heresy, it is not to offend anyone...it is just simply presenting Catholic teaching, free of post Vat -II ecumenism.

You all know I am torn between east and west, and I do not personally believe Orthodoxy to be a heresy, at this point. But according to RCC teaching and logic, from the Catholic point of view, it would be foolish to deny it, if you were convinced the Catholic Church was the true Church.

Well, the church's teaching has changed just the way it did when the church said that it can't blame all jews for the death of christ. we can't blame them for rejecting them either by calling them heretics.

protestants fall under the council of trent and condemned for  specific heresies. at this time they were catholics. like I said heresy only applies to catholics.
Logged
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2004, 10:59:56 PM »

Quote
Well, the church's teaching has changed just the way it did when the church said that it can't blame all jews for the death of christ. we can't blame them for rejecting them either by calling them heretics.

The Church can not "change its teachings". What I mean is that the Catholic Church has always taught that offical Church teachings can't just be changed. This is the problem with those who want to change Church teaching for the sake of unity. Church teaching can't be licitly changed.

The Catholic Church has never officialy taught that all Jews were/are guilty for the death of Christ. If so please provided a papal bull or declaration of an ecumenical Council, that states this.

Quote
protestants fall under the council of trent and condemned for  specific heresies. at this time they were catholics. like I said heresy only applies to catholics.

Trent was not called to condemn Protestanism. Trent was called to deal with the fragile state the Catholic Church was in at the time, and to examine what needed to be clearly defined and taught, to prevent more Protestant lies and misconceptions to grow and spread. However, Trent did address many things that the Protestants rejected, and condemned the protestants for rejecting thim.

In many Papal bulls and declarations of Catholic Ecumenical Councils have condemned those who reject Catholic dogmas, like the filioque and Papal Infallibilty. Those who teach contrary to Catholic teaching, according to the Catholic Church, are teaching heresy.

Now, if you go back through the posts you will see that I stated I do not believe Orthodox Christians are heretics. Let me explain.

A heretic is somone who was a Catholic and rejected the Catholic Church's teaching, and left the Church. This would only apply to Catholics who have converted to Orthodoxy.

However heresy is different.

Heresy is the denial of some truth which must be believed, such as the Filioque.

Catholicism still considers Gnoticism and Nestorianism a heresy, even though the vast majority of modern day Gnotics and Nestorians are not former Catholics.

Catholicism still considers Protestantism a heresy, even though most modern day proestants aren't former Catholics.

So why would it be unreasonable for Catholicism to teach Orthodoxy was or in Heresy?

Don't be fooled by the HERESY of ecumenism.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2004, 11:03:14 PM by Ben » Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2004, 11:11:42 PM »

RB, I think that this quote from the infallible, ex cathedra and binding papal bull Unam Sanctam clearly puts the Orthodox Christians in a not so happy position:

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302).

As does this quote from the fourth Lateran Council:

"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

And last but not least, the infallible and binding papal bull of Cantate Domino:

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2004, 11:14:37 PM by Ben » Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2004, 11:15:59 PM »

After reading the above quotes, anyone can see the clear departure of the ecumenists and their false hopes from offical Catholic teaching.
Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« Reply #88 on: April 25, 2004, 12:09:47 AM »

indeed Ben, indeed.  

Joe Zollars
Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
romanbyzantium
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


OC.net


« Reply #89 on: April 25, 2004, 12:57:51 AM »

RB, I think that this quote from the infallible, ex cathedra and binding papal bull Unam Sanctam clearly puts the Orthodox Christians in a not so happy position:

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302).

As does this quote from the fourth Lateran Council:

"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

And last but not least, the infallible and binding papal bull of Cantate Domino:

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)


That there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church we are compelled by faith to believe and hold, and we firmly believe in her and sincerely confess her, outside of whom there is neither salvation nor remission of sins.....FURTHERMORE WE DECLARE, STATE AND DEFINE THAT IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FOR THE SALVATION OF ALL HUMAN BEINGS THAT THEY SUBMIT TO THE ROMAN PONTIFF [Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronunciamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis]."

1.  non catholics cannot submit to the pope. only catholics can submit to the pope. not orthodox, etc.. unless they become catholics.
2. second sentence is infallibly defined. first sentence must be infallibly defined.

Not really. The document has to be put in its historical/catholic theological context.  both statements are true. The historical context is the struggle between Philip IV of France and Edward I of England  with the Pope Pope Boniface VIII in 1296. You need to read it in its historical context.

Outside the church no salvation

847. This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation." [Vatican II LG 16]

think of invicible ignorance. just the ways the fathers taught that those who were ignorant of scriptures salvation was still open to them in a mysterious way.




« Last Edit: April 25, 2004, 01:01:13 AM by romanbyzantium » Logged
Tags: Immaculate Conception 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.141 seconds with 72 queries.