Author Topic: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?  (Read 15210 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2014, 10:32:52 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2014, 10:41:25 PM »
Since when can you dictate what people can post, outside of breaches of forum rules? Am I the first to post such advice as I have given to the OP on this forum? No? So spare me the high-handedness, PtA.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 10:42:25 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2014, 10:44:05 PM »
Since when can you dictate what people can post, outside of breaches of forum rules? Am I the first to post such advice as I have given to the OP on this forum? No? So spare me the high-handedness, PtA.
Since when can you dictate what people can post and what people must do when they're not online? Am I the first to post such advice as I have given to you on this forum? No. So spare me the high-handedness, LBK.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 10:51:26 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2014, 10:50:08 PM »
Since when can you dictate what people can post, outside of breaches of forum rules? Am I the first to post such advice as I have given to the OP on this forum? No? So spare me the high-handedness, PtA.
Since when can you dictate what people can post and what people must do away from this forum? Am I the first to post such advice as I have given to you on this forum? No. So spare me the high-handedness, LBK.

If you're honest, you should say the same to everyone here who has ever advised that a poster speak to his priest about certain things, and everyone here who has ever defended teachings which the Church has proclaimed as central and inviolate.

Go on, do a search on all these posts, and admonish every forum member who has posted in such ways. If you can't or won't, then back off and let people have their say.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2014, 10:55:02 PM »
Since when can you dictate what people can post, outside of breaches of forum rules? Am I the first to post such advice as I have given to the OP on this forum? No? So spare me the high-handedness, PtA.
Since when can you dictate what people can post and what people must do away from this forum? Am I the first to post such advice as I have given to you on this forum? No. So spare me the high-handedness, LBK.

If you're honest, you should say the same to everyone here who has ever advised that a poster speak to his priest about certain things, and everyone here who has ever defended teachings which the Church has proclaimed as central and inviolate.

Go on, do a search on all these posts, and admonish every forum member who has posted in such ways. If you can't or won't, then back off and let people have their say.
LBK, I did not modify your post. I did not give you a warning. I did not state in any way formal or informal that you could not say what you said to rakovsky. You were always free to ignore my imperative if you wanted to, given as it was in the black text of a mere poster. So stop whining about how I'm "dictating to you what you can post". I am doing no such thing.

BTW, do you not appreciate the irony that you are in fact dictating to me what I can and cannot say to you, which is exactly the behavior of which you accuse me? If you have the freedom to give such advice as you gave to rakovsky, then I have no less freedom to give you such advice as I just gave to you.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 11:00:56 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2014, 11:01:29 PM »
Stop playing silly semantic games. Out of the blue, you singled out my post for criticism. Others have posted in similar vein as I have, yet you chose mine to criticize. It's not the first time you've done this, either.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2014, 11:03:21 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2014, 11:03:57 PM »
Stop playing silly semantic games. Out of the blue, you singled out my post for criticism. Others have posted in similar vein as I have, yet you chose mine to criticize. It's not the first time you've done this, either.
You know, LBK, when the only tool you have in your kit is a hammer, the only tool anyone ever sees in your hand is a hammer.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2014, 11:04:35 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
I don't think rakovsky's struggling anywhere near as much as LBK makes him out to be. Can a person not express occasional doubts without the doctrine police jumping all over him with billy clubs telling him to go see a priest about his heresy?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 11:05:51 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2014, 11:05:01 PM »
Not that I'm presenting this as if to question the Virgin Birth as dogma (I don't think he is questioning the dogma of it anyway, but his words might make it seem so), but to show forth an interesting perspective that Christ came with the element of surprise.

http://youtu.be/ekgAYczUqn0

Just in case people were confused the "he" in this post is the Jesuit priest on YouTube, not Rakovsky
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 11:05:56 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2014, 11:05:53 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
I don't think rakovsky's struggling anywhere near as much as LBK makes him out to be.

Pure speculation on your part.

so why don't we get back to either discussing the -issue- or not.....since that will clarify things..
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2014, 11:07:09 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
I don't think rakovsky's struggling anywhere near as much as LBK makes him out to be.

Really? Did you miss this thread? But even if you are correct, and his struggle is not as severe as it seems, I still don't quite understand why you perceive it to be out of place for LBK to suggest he speak with a priest.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2014, 11:09:58 PM »
God bless!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2014, 11:10:21 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
I don't think rakovsky's struggling anywhere near as much as LBK makes him out to be.

Pure speculation on your part.
And I agree that it is. But LBK's judgment that rakovsky appeared to be looking for reasons to deny the Virgin Birth was just as much speculation. Would you not agree? I don't see him indicating any such thing.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 11:10:49 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2014, 11:12:49 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
I don't think rakovsky's struggling anywhere near as much as LBK makes him out to be.

Pure speculation on your part.
And I agree that it is. But LBK's judgment that rakovsky appeared to be looking for reasons to deny the Virgin Birth was just as much speculation. Would you not agree? I don't see him indicating any such thing.

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Offline Punch

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2014, 11:13:28 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
I don't think rakovsky's struggling anywhere near as much as LBK makes him out to be.

Really? Did you miss this thread? But even if you are correct, and his struggle is not as severe as it seems, I still don't quite understand why you perceive it to be out of place for LBK to suggest he speak with a priest.

If you don't believe "born of the Virgin Mary" in the Creed, what good will talking to a priest do you?  Just asking. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2014, 11:13:43 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
I don't think rakovsky's struggling anywhere near as much as LBK makes him out to be.

Really? Did you miss this thread? But even if you are correct, and his struggle is not as severe as it seems, I still don't quite understand why you perceive it to be out of place for LBK to suggest he speak with a priest.
There are reasons for my response to LBK that go much deeper and much farther back than just what you see on this thread.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 11:16:00 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2014, 11:13:51 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
I don't think rakovsky's struggling anywhere near as much as LBK makes him out to be.

Pure speculation on your part.
And I agree that it is. But LBK's judgment that rakovsky appeared to be looking for reasons to deny the Virgin Birth was just as much speculation. Would you not agree? I don't see him indicating any such thing.


I know that this is an old thread, but it's the closest one I found to the topic.

This is the kind of article that gives me doubts about the virgin birth.


doubting is no longer the same as trying to deny?

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2014, 11:14:54 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
I don't think rakovsky's struggling anywhere near as much as LBK makes him out to be.

Really? Did you miss this thread? But even if you are correct, and his struggle is not as severe as it seems, I still don't quite understand why you perceive it to be out of place for LBK to suggest he speak with a priest.
There are reasons for my response to LBK that go much deeper than just what you see on this thread.


AHA....and this is the crux of it.

You are not staying on topic...you are the one deciding that past history allows you to question a perfectly reasonable comment by her, just because you were peeved in the past.


All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2014, 11:20:10 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
I don't think rakovsky's struggling anywhere near as much as LBK makes him out to be.

Really? Did you miss this thread? But even if you are correct, and his struggle is not as severe as it seems, I still don't quite understand why you perceive it to be out of place for LBK to suggest he speak with a priest.
There are reasons for my response to LBK that go much deeper than just what you see on this thread.


AHA....and this is the crux of it.

You are not staying on topic...you are the one deciding that past history allows you to question a perfectly reasonable comment by her, just because you were peeved in the past.
Pure speculation on your part, Denise. ;) There's much more to this than meets your eye, much of which you're not even privileged to know. The only thing you need to know is that I don't see LBK making that perfectly reasonable a comment.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 11:21:47 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2014, 11:23:14 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
I don't think rakovsky's struggling anywhere near as much as LBK makes him out to be.

Really? Did you miss this thread? But even if you are correct, and his struggle is not as severe as it seems, I still don't quite understand why you perceive it to be out of place for LBK to suggest he speak with a priest.

If you don't believe "born of the Virgin Mary" in the Creed, what good will talking to a priest do you?  Just asking. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here.

Well, in rakovsky's case specifically, it seems that he wants to not struggle with this, so maybe his priest who knows him personally would have better insight on how to help him than we internet strangers. But really, I have no idea, I'm not a priest.  ;) It just didn't seem like a totally bananas thing to suggest to me.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2014, 11:23:47 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
I don't think rakovsky's struggling anywhere near as much as LBK makes him out to be.

Really? Did you miss this thread? But even if you are correct, and his struggle is not as severe as it seems, I still don't quite understand why you perceive it to be out of place for LBK to suggest he speak with a priest.
There are reasons for my response to LBK that go much deeper than just what you see on this thread.


AHA....and this is the crux of it.

You are not staying on topic...you are the one deciding that past history allows you to question a perfectly reasonable comment by her, just because you were peeved in the past.
Pure speculation on your part, Denise. ;) There's much more to this than meets your eye--much of this you're not even privileged to know. The only thing you need to know is that I don't see LBK making that perfectly reasonable a comment.


If its some modatorial info, which you keep hinting at...then turn your green print on.

Otherwise, act like a 'normal' poster and get over yourself.

Using that info to slam someone continually as a 'private citizen' is not germane nor the way to treat a fellow Orthodox Christian.
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2014, 11:24:29 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
I don't think rakovsky's struggling anywhere near as much as LBK makes him out to be.

Really? Did you miss this thread? But even if you are correct, and his struggle is not as severe as it seems, I still don't quite understand why you perceive it to be out of place for LBK to suggest he speak with a priest.
There are reasons for my response to LBK that go much deeper than just what you see on this thread.


AHA....and this is the crux of it.

You are not staying on topic...you are the one deciding that past history allows you to question a perfectly reasonable comment by her, just because you were peeved in the past.
Pure speculation on your part, Denise. ;) There's much more to this than meets your eye, much of which you're not even privileged to know. The only thing you need to know is that I don't see LBK making that perfectly reasonable a comment.

The point of contention is LBK's use of ASAP - implying urgency.

Can forum members communicate urgency if necessary - without this exercise of mental gymnastics?   ???

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2014, 11:28:03 PM »
I think we need some good ol' fashioned beer diplomacy here.

God bless!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2014, 11:43:25 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
I don't think rakovsky's struggling anywhere near as much as LBK makes him out to be.

Really? Did you miss this thread? But even if you are correct, and his struggle is not as severe as it seems, I still don't quite understand why you perceive it to be out of place for LBK to suggest he speak with a priest.
There are reasons for my response to LBK that go much deeper than just what you see on this thread.


AHA....and this is the crux of it.

You are not staying on topic...you are the one deciding that past history allows you to question a perfectly reasonable comment by her, just because you were peeved in the past.
Pure speculation on your part, Denise. ;) There's much more to this than meets your eye--much of this you're not even privileged to know. The only thing you need to know is that I don't see LBK making that perfectly reasonable a comment.


If its some modatorial info, which you keep hinting at...then turn your green print on.

Otherwise, act like a 'normal' poster and get over yourself.

Using that info to slam someone continually as a 'private citizen' is not germane nor the way to treat a fellow Orthodox Christian.
Denise, you speak of things you know nothing about. It would be good for you, then, to not be so quick to jump into this fray.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2014, 11:46:40 PM »
to show forth an interesting perspective that Christ came with the element of surprise.
http://youtu.be/ekgAYczUqn0
I do want to point out that the most important reason for the Virgin Birth is that Christ wants to show us He is the firstborn of all creation.
I liked the priest's explanation, as well as yours, Mina: the idea of the Virgin birth is neat because people thought of the Messiah as a literal descendant of David, and it is easier to think of a person as only poetically a Son of God, and the idea of the virgin birth flips that. And like you said, the Virgin birth would be a reflection that the Logos was not born of an earthly father.

I remember how, when I was researching the Old Testament prophecies, I was unsure whether they predicted that the Messiah would be killed and resurrect, especially Isaiah 53, since the modern rabbis say that the sufferer in it was the Israelites, not the Messiah. It was exciting to analyze it to discover that it really was about the Messiah's death and resurrection, despite the "conventional wisdom". It was like "opening up" a treasure chest.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 11:51:17 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2014, 11:47:00 PM »
Rakovsky, ISTM you're looking for any reason possible to deny the virgin birth. This is unhealthy and serious. It's a central and non-negotiable Orthodox belief. No ifs, no buts. You need to speak to a priest. ASAP.
Chill out, LBK. 8) Nobody made you the forum's chief of doctrine police.

Well, nobody would have to in this case. The Virgin Birth is a central and non-negotiable belief. It's in the Creed. If rakovsky is struggling with this particular aspect, why is it wrong of her to suggest that he speak to a priest?

I don't understand the issue here.
I don't think rakovsky's struggling anywhere near as much as LBK makes him out to be.

Really? Did you miss this thread? But even if you are correct, and his struggle is not as severe as it seems, I still don't quite understand why you perceive it to be out of place for LBK to suggest he speak with a priest.
There are reasons for my response to LBK that go much deeper than just what you see on this thread.


AHA....and this is the crux of it.

You are not staying on topic...you are the one deciding that past history allows you to question a perfectly reasonable comment by her, just because you were peeved in the past.
Pure speculation on your part, Denise. ;) There's much more to this than meets your eye--much of this you're not even privileged to know. The only thing you need to know is that I don't see LBK making that perfectly reasonable a comment.


If its some modatorial info, which you keep hinting at...then turn your green print on.

Otherwise, act like a 'normal' poster and get over yourself.

Using that info to slam someone continually as a 'private citizen' is not germane nor the way to treat a fellow Orthodox Christian.
Denise, you speak of things you know nothing about. It would be good for you, then, to not be so quick to jump into this fray.

And unless you put that in green, I can continue to express my opinion that using information -not- from this thread, to imply someone should not post to a thread.....

I frankly don't care what 'things i don't know about'.....I know that you are using those things out of context of THIS thread.

Pity you let your personal gripe get the better of you.
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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2014, 11:47:41 PM »
There are reasons for my response to LBK that go much deeper than just what you see on this thread.


AHA....and this is the crux of it.

You are not staying on topic...you are the one deciding that past history allows you to question a perfectly reasonable comment by her, just because you were peeved in the past.
Pure speculation on your part, Denise. ;) There's much more to this than meets your eye--much of this you're not even privileged to know. The only thing you need to know is that I don't see LBK making that perfectly reasonable a comment.


If its some modatorial info, which you keep hinting at...then turn your green print on.

Otherwise, act like a 'normal' poster and get over yourself.

Using that info to slam someone continually as a 'private citizen' is not germane nor the way to treat a fellow Orthodox Christian.
Denise, you speak of things you know nothing about. It would be good for you, then, to not be so quick to jump into this fray.

It would also be good not to hint at things and then use them against people when they pick up on them.   
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #73 on: June 26, 2014, 11:54:57 PM »
I think we need some good ol' fashioned beer diplomacy here.



I'm up for that, brother.
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #74 on: June 26, 2014, 11:55:15 PM »
Denise, you speak of things you know nothing about. It would be good for you, then, to not be so quick to jump into this fray.

Well, as someone else who knows nothing about whatever it is you know about but aren't saying, all I have to say is this: it's no secret to those of us who frequent OC.net that you and LBK don't see eye to eye on many things. Fine. You don't have to like everybody. And, sometimes threads veer off-topic. It's to be expected. But now this thread has nothing to do with belief in the Virgin Birth for no other reason than you have an axe to grind. We've established that LBK's comment was not some crazy, out-of-left-field thing to suggest, but you claim there's something "deeper" that you have no compunction about referencing but that we, apparently, aren't privileged to know which has made you respond as you have.

And all the while, someone is struggling with belief in the Virgin Birth and probably should speak to his priest, but the thread is now a hot mess.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2014, 12:02:15 AM »
Denise, you speak of things you know nothing about. It would be good for you, then, to not be so quick to jump into this fray.

Well, as someone else who knows nothing about whatever it is you know about but aren't saying, all I have to say is this: it's no secret to those of us who frequent OC.net that you and LBK don't see eye to eye on many things. Fine. You don't have to like everybody. And, sometimes threads veer off-topic. It's to be expected. But now this thread has nothing to do with belief in the Virgin Birth for no other reason than you have an axe to grind. We've established that LBK's comment was not some crazy, out-of-left-field thing to suggest, but you claim there's something "deeper" that you have no compunction about referencing but that we, apparently, aren't privileged to know which has made you respond as you have.

And all the while, someone is struggling with belief in the Virgin Birth and probably should speak to his priest, but the thread is now a hot mess.
And you failed to notice the vitriol in LBK's reply to me? And you failed to notice how a team of other posters, yourself included, took up LBK's defense by ganging up on me? Why, then, am I the only guilty party in this thread derailment? ISTM that I had a lot of help.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2014, 12:06:55 AM »
...

I remember how, when I was researching the Old Testament prophecies, I was unsure whether they predicted that the Messiah would be killed and resurrect, especially Isaiah 53, since the modern rabbis say that the sufferer in it was the Israelites, not the Messiah. It was exciting to analyze it to discover that it really was about the Messiah's death and resurrection, despite the "conventional wisdom". It was like "opening up" a treasure chest.

Hurrah! I love this story and have to cheer this. :)
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2014, 12:08:47 AM »
There are reasons for my response to LBK that go much deeper than just what you see on this thread.


AHA....and this is the crux of it.

You are not staying on topic...you are the one deciding that past history allows you to question a perfectly reasonable comment by her, just because you were peeved in the past.
Pure speculation on your part, Denise. ;) There's much more to this than meets your eye--much of this you're not even privileged to know. The only thing you need to know is that I don't see LBK making that perfectly reasonable a comment.


If its some modatorial info, which you keep hinting at...then turn your green print on.

Otherwise, act like a 'normal' poster and get over yourself.

Using that info to slam someone continually as a 'private citizen' is not germane nor the way to treat a fellow Orthodox Christian.
Denise, you speak of things you know nothing about. It would be good for you, then, to not be so quick to jump into this fray.

It would also be good not to hint at things and then use them against people when they pick up on them.   

You should see what I have on LBK. I'll gladly show mine. I can see why PTA might be put off by her. Maria did have point recently about certain members and their backbiting emails which inform their corporate behavior here.

Thing is people leak like sieves and never imagine person x might just have a soft spot for bullied good ol' orthonorm or know that I just enjoy reading silly stuff by people leading very small lives.

Watching the side shows and being privy to the backstage dramas is what allows this place to remain somewhat entertaining. Outside you, Punch, JamesR, Opus, Alveus, and other oc.net stars.

Me and mine were never secretive about our disdain for certain folks. And heck overtime some of those I had disdain for I've broken bread with in RL or had some heart to hearts over the phone.

Others, like LBK, would want to enjoy some notion of dispassion and removal on the board while nursing resentments and encouraging others to do the same spanning decades. I quit caring after a while I guess cause it just seems sad.

Oh, and when I am being mean it is also never average and at least more than two are laughing and in the end so absurd as to render my comments as ridiculous in their veracity as the idiot delivering them.

But back to something we can all agree on. If you don't believe the Virgin Birth or not trying to do so, you are no odox.

And rakovsky is one interesting fellow.


January 23, 2016, 03:47:17 PM   Ad Hominem - "mere foil"   +45

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(literature)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2014, 12:09:12 AM »
Not that I'm presenting this as if to question the Virgin Birth as dogma (I don't think he is questioning the dogma of it anyway, but his words might make it seem so), but to show forth an interesting perspective that Christ came with the element of surprise.

http://youtu.be/ekgAYczUqn0

I've seen him on TV before.  I like him.  

Quote
I do want to point out that the most important reason for the Virgin Birth is that Christ wants to show us He is the firstborn of all creation.  This in itself convinces me there is no way out of believing it.

Would you expand on this?
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Offline Alpo

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2014, 12:23:31 AM »
I think we need some good ol' fashioned beer diplomacy here.



I'm up for that, brother.

I prefer broom diplomacy myself.

But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2014, 12:34:42 AM »
You should see what I have on LBK. I'll gladly show mine. I can see why PTA might be put off by her. Maria did have point recently about certain members and their backbiting emails which inform their corporate behavior here.

Thing is people leak like sieves and never imagine person x might just have a soft spot for bullied good ol' orthonorm or know that I just enjoy reading silly stuff by people leading very small lives.

Watching the side shows and being privy to the backstage dramas is what allows this place to remain somewhat entertaining. Outside you, Punch, JamesR, Opus, Alveus, and other oc.net stars.

Me and mine were never secretive about our disdain for certain folks. And heck overtime some of those I had disdain for I've broken bread with in RL or had some heart to hearts over the phone.

Others, like LBK, would want to enjoy some notion of dispassion and removal on the board while nursing resentments and encouraging others to do the same spanning decades. I quit caring after a while I guess cause it just seems sad.

Oh, and when I am being mean it is also never average and at least more than two are laughing and in the end so absurd as to render my comments as ridiculous in their veracity as the idiot delivering them.

But back to something we can all agree on. If you don't believe the Virgin Birth or not trying to do so, you are no odox.

And rakovsky is one interesting fellow.
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2014, 12:41:09 AM »
blahblahblah

anyway, yes, I agree with the other posters, you must believe in the Virgin Birth. You must believe the creed to be Orthodox correct? Or then do you refuse to read it in church?, and the creed states:

"and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary"
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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2014, 12:57:19 AM »
Not that I'm presenting this as if to question the Virgin Birth as dogma (I don't think he is questioning the dogma of it anyway, but his words might make it seem so), but to show forth an interesting perspective that Christ came with the element of surprise.

http://youtu.be/ekgAYczUqn0

I've seen him on TV before.  I like him.  

Quote
I do want to point out that the most important reason for the Virgin Birth is that Christ wants to show us He is the firstborn of all creation.  This in itself convinces me there is no way out of believing it.

Would you expand on this?

He seems like a fun priest to listen to.  A Coptic Catholic shared this on his Facebook page once, so I thought it might help Rakovsky a bit.

We confess Our Lord as the Second Adam.  He is the recapitulation of all things the first Adam has done.  St. Irenaeus as we all know also extended this honor of the recapitulation to the Theotokos by calling her the Second Eve.  Poetically, St. Jacob of Serugh has used this in a manner to show that she being a Virgin recapitulates Eve's disobedience while she was a Virgin by her obedience.  After the disobedience of Eve she propagates the human nature under exile by man, in recapitulative reversal, the new Eve obeys and propagates the new human nature under grace by God.  In this manner, she is also the mother of new creation, because Christ was born of her, who is the first-born of salvation.  It is therefore important that she being a virgin, we have our origin not in the seed of man, but in the seed of the Father, the Holy Spirit.  It recapitulates the old Adam's creation by the Holy Spirit in us through Christ by making us once again direct sons of God as Adam was considered, as Luke records in his record of genealogy.  Therefore, by being incarnate without seed, Christ demonstrates we become by grace born of the Father.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #83 on: June 27, 2014, 01:03:25 AM »
...

I remember how, when I was researching the Old Testament prophecies, I was unsure whether they predicted that the Messiah would be killed and resurrect, especially Isaiah 53, since the modern rabbis say that the sufferer in it was the Israelites, not the Messiah. It was exciting to analyze it to discover that it really was about the Messiah's death and resurrection, despite the "conventional wisdom". It was like "opening up" a treasure chest.

Hurrah! I love this story and have to cheer this. :)
It's true. There are websites and academics that propose that the Old Testament doesn't say that the Messiah would be killed, and many Christians- including myself for a long time - don't know what those Old Testament prophecies are. There is even a Protestant Bible that notes that Isaiah 53 is just talking about the Israelites, not a suffering Messiah. So knowing that we are asked to believe the prophecies, not knowing the prophecies, and seeing that it is a debated question that is not immediately clear - hence the nature of visions and prophecy - can create a lot of uncertainty.

This is why it was uplifting and enjoyable to learn that the prophecies really said this. For a long time, maybe a year, I worked the puzzle of the prophecies in my mind.

One of the clearer ways to see that Isaiah was talking about the Messiah - and there are many, is that in Isaiah 52, God tells the Israelites:
Quote
13. Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
14. As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15. So shall he sprinkle many nations
The words "As many were .... So shall..." sets up a comparison between two things. Here, God contrasts His "servant" with "thee", the Israelites. This shows the reader that the servant and the Israelites are two different things.

It would be better if everyone of the Abrahamic faiths realized this key Truth about the scriptures and the predicted Messiah. It is something few followers of modern Judaism or Islam realize.

I would love to have a similar experience "opening up" and writing at length about the other key elements of our faith that I have doubts or uncertainty about (eg. the resurrection, incarnation, and virgin birth), but I worry that I do not have the time, energy, and willpower for it.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 01:08:29 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2014, 01:06:36 AM »
Quote
I would love to have a similar experience "opening up" the other key elements of our faith that I have doubts or uncertainty about (eg. the resurrection, incarnation, and virgin birth), but I worry that I do not have the time, energy, and willpower for it.

You don't need to do all that work for yourself. The Church has done it all for you, most clearly expressed in her liturgical services, hymns, prayers and icons.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 01:06:53 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #85 on: June 27, 2014, 01:09:44 AM »
I would love to have a similar experience "opening up" and writing at length about the other key elements of our faith that I have doubts or uncertainty about (eg. the resurrection, incarnation, and virgin birth), but I worry that I do not have the time, energy, and willpower for it.

My dear Rakovsky,

If I would have known of your struggles, I would have wished that you would concentrate more on these areas for yourself than debate and discuss the terminologies of the EO/OO divide  ;)
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #86 on: June 27, 2014, 01:14:42 AM »
...
It's true. There are websites and academics that propose that the Old Testament doesn't say that the Messiah would be killed, and many Christians- including myself for a long time - don't know what those Old Testament prophecies are. There is even a Protestant Bible that notes that Isaiah 53 is just talking about the Israelites, not a suffering Messiah.

Well, sure, this is the scholarship of our time. Academics propound any number of things contrary to the faith; I'd find it hard to think of much upon which they and the faith agree. Studious believers who don't grasp this are going to have a bad time.

Quote
It would be better if everyone of the Abrahamic faiths realized this key Truth about the scriptures and the predicted Messiah. It is something few followers of modern Judaism or Islam realize.

There's a reason they do not realize it: it is contrary to their faiths; their dogma and apologetics are configured to "realize" something opposite.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #87 on: June 27, 2014, 02:16:23 AM »
Just wanted to chime in and make it clear that I do want to stay on topic.  Please no side talk about who has what against who or how the criticism is unfair or unwarranted, etc.  Let's try to keep it about "Must we believe in the Virgin Birth" and any small corollary that leads to the answer to this question.

Thank you and God bless!

Mina
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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #88 on: June 27, 2014, 07:29:42 AM »
The Virgin birth is true, otherwise Jesus is not God.
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  • Faith: Orthodox
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Re: Must we believe in the Virgin Birth?
« Reply #89 on: June 27, 2014, 08:52:58 AM »
The Virgin birth is true, otherwise Jesus is not God.
/end thread

and +1 to my post count.  ;D
God bless!