Author Topic: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?  (Read 5606 times)

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Offline J Michael

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #270 on: July 04, 2014, 01:40:23 PM »
I couldn't bear to read through every post, so if I'm repeating something someone already mentioned, please forgive me.

In answer to the OP: Which Catholic Church?  Pre-Vatican II or post-Vatican II?  They seem to me, even with so many similarities, to be almost 2 different Churches/faiths altogether. 
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

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Offline Maria

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #271 on: July 04, 2014, 02:55:26 PM »
I couldn't bear to read through every post, so if I'm repeating something someone already mentioned, please forgive me.

In answer to the OP: Which Catholic Church?  Pre-Vatican II or post-Vatican II?  They seem to me, even with so many similarities, to be almost 2 different Churches/faiths altogether. 

The Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church is One Church = The Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #272 on: July 04, 2014, 02:59:07 PM »
This topic brings back fond memories of myself as a young lad hiding underneath the bell and playing on top of the altar, pretending to be the Priest while attempting to read the service book on his podium as my father received Confession at night from the local Roman Catholic parish. It astounds me today that the Priests never told me to get off.
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Offline Maria

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #273 on: July 04, 2014, 03:06:22 PM »
This topic brings back fond memories of myself as a young lad hiding underneath the bell and playing on top of the altar, pretending to be the Priest while attempting to read the service book on his podium as my father received Confession at night from the local Roman Catholic parish. It astounds me today that the Priests never told me to get off.

Perhaps the priests did not see you, or perhaps they pretended not to see you. Yes, there is a tremendous difference between the Pre-Vatican II and the Post-Vatican II RCC.

When Pope Paul VI said that the smoke of Satan had entered the "Catholic Church" and with the introduction of the Novus Ordo, the sense of sacredness seemed to have vanished.


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Offline KostaC

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #274 on: July 04, 2014, 03:34:18 PM »
I couldn't bear to read through every post, so if I'm repeating something someone already mentioned, please forgive me.

In answer to the OP: Which Catholic Church?  Pre-Vatican II or post-Vatican II?  They seem to me, even with so many similarities, to be almost 2 different Churches/faiths altogether. 


That's not really a good sign coming from a Catholic person, and a bit sad, too.
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Offline Raylight

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #275 on: July 04, 2014, 05:18:32 PM »
I couldn't bear to read through every post, so if I'm repeating something someone already mentioned, please forgive me.

In answer to the OP: Which Catholic Church?  Pre-Vatican II or post-Vatican II?  They seem to me, even with so many similarities, to be almost 2 different Churches/faiths altogether. 

This is very interesting actually. And it is one of the reasons I don't trust the Catholic Church anymore. When I read about Catholic Church before and after Vatican II ( btw I'm with the Vatican II but that doesn't mean I'm to ignore the past ), I find two different Churches.

So you decide, which Church you want to say your opinion about. even if you want both, that would be nice :)

Offline Maria

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #276 on: July 04, 2014, 05:55:50 PM »
I couldn't bear to read through every post, so if I'm repeating something someone already mentioned, please forgive me.

In answer to the OP: Which Catholic Church?  Pre-Vatican II or post-Vatican II?  They seem to me, even with so many similarities, to be almost 2 different Churches/faiths altogether. 

This is very interesting actually. And it is one of the reasons I don't trust the Catholic Church anymore. When I read about Catholic Church before and after Vatican II ( btw I'm with the Vatican II but that doesn't mean I'm to ignore the past ), I find two different Churches.

So you decide, which Church you want to say your opinion about. even if you want both, that would be nice :)

Actually, from my perspective being a cradle Roman Catholic for most of my life, I saw the disintegration of the Roman Catholic Church as the seeds of destruction were within it even before the time of the Great Schism of 1054.
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Offline Maria

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #277 on: July 04, 2014, 05:59:22 PM »
These seeds of destruction within Roman Catholicism, particularly the development of doctrine, caused the Protestants and the Anglicans to split from it, and once these Protestants split, they have grown stranger and have created more foreign doctrines. So, it is not surprising today that the Roman Catholic Church resembles the low Anglican and other forms of Protestantism. Clown, bikini, and beer Novus Ordo Masses with dancing girls? How foreign is this to True Orthodoxy?
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Offline J Michael

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #278 on: July 04, 2014, 08:02:36 PM »
I couldn't bear to read through every post, so if I'm repeating something someone already mentioned, please forgive me.

In answer to the OP: Which Catholic Church?  Pre-Vatican II or post-Vatican II?  They seem to me, even with so many similarities, to be almost 2 different Churches/faiths altogether. 


That's not really a good sign coming from a Catholic person, and a bit sad, too.

Well, the post VII Church is in a very, very sad and sorry state.  Dare I say, almost as much Protestant as "Catholic".  (Maybe more so?)
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Raylight

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #279 on: July 04, 2014, 09:33:47 PM »
I couldn't bear to read through every post, so if I'm repeating something someone already mentioned, please forgive me.

In answer to the OP: Which Catholic Church?  Pre-Vatican II or post-Vatican II?  They seem to me, even with so many similarities, to be almost 2 different Churches/faiths altogether. 


That's not really a good sign coming from a Catholic person, and a bit sad, too.

Well, the post VII Church is in a very, very sad and sorry state.  Dare I say, almost as much Protestant as "Catholic".  (Maybe more so?)

Can you please explain that more ? Like what is Protestant in the Catholic Church ?

Offline sakura95

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #280 on: July 05, 2014, 01:42:20 AM »
I couldn't bear to read through every post, so if I'm repeating something someone already mentioned, please forgive me.

In answer to the OP: Which Catholic Church?  Pre-Vatican II or post-Vatican II?  They seem to me, even with so many similarities, to be almost 2 different Churches/faiths altogether. 


That's not really a good sign coming from a Catholic person, and a bit sad, too.

Well, the post VII Church is in a very, very sad and sorry state.  Dare I say, almost as much Protestant as "Catholic".  (Maybe more so?)

This is true for many Catholics given the embrace of Charismatic Worship. Heck, I even have a Catholic friend who happily attended a Hillsong conference and treated its pastors as celebrities. When Charismatic pastors are treated as celebrities by Catholics without considering the differences in doctrines, it really shows how low the Catholic Church have fallen since Vatican ii. Yet even before Vatican ii, the Catholic Church have already deviated itself from its roots by introducing innovations such as Transubstantiation and the Primacy as in dominion over the entire Church of the Pope. The Pope no doubt have a primacy that is of honor *not* leadership or dominion. Catholicism deliberately ignored this and before you know it, the Pope becomes infallible!! These are just only the surface of innovations which the Protestants themselves are well known for. Eventually, what you get are two different types of the same fruit just as a Granny Smith and a Golden Delicious are different but are still in essence, Apples.

Hence, in essence, the Catholic Church even before Vatican ii is just the same as Protestantism. Both certainly introduced a lot of innovations in matters of doctrine after all.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #281 on: July 05, 2014, 11:40:50 AM »
I couldn't bear to read through every post, so if I'm repeating something someone already mentioned, please forgive me.

In answer to the OP: Which Catholic Church?  Pre-Vatican II or post-Vatican II?  They seem to me, even with so many similarities, to be almost 2 different Churches/faiths altogether.  


That's not really a good sign coming from a Catholic person, and a bit sad, too.

Well, the post VII Church is in a very, very sad and sorry state.  Dare I say, almost as much Protestant as "Catholic".  (Maybe more so?)

Can you please explain that more ? Like what is Protestant in the Catholic Church ?

Whole articles and books have addressed this.  I don't have the time to answer your question in the manner that it deserves, so I would invite you to do your own research.  You might take as a starting point the differences, both in form and substance, between the Novus Ordo Mass and the pre-VII Latin Mass.  Did you know that protestant theologians were brought in for "consultation" in the formation of the N.O. Mass?  Unbelievable, really!!

http://www.lms.org.uk/resources/comparison-between-the-traditional-and-novus-ordo-missals

http://www.traditionalmass.org/versus/

Work of Human Hands: A Theological Critique of the Mass of Paul VI by Fr. Anthony Cekada.  Check it out here.

The Ottaviani Intervention: Short Critical Study of the New Order of Mass Here.

Resources about this abound.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 11:44:56 AM by J Michael »
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline biro

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #282 on: July 05, 2014, 11:46:15 AM »
Part of me always plays 'what if.' The Pope who opened Vatican II died. Someone else had to finish.

I always wonder what would have happened had the one who actually called the conference, gotten to finish it. We may have had very different results.

Offline J Michael

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #283 on: July 05, 2014, 11:47:43 AM »
Part of me always plays 'what if.' The Pope who opened Vatican II died. Someone else had to finish.

I always wonder what would have happened had the one who actually called the conference, gotten to finish it. We may have had very different results.

Except that "what if's" will get you nowhere.
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline hecma925

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #284 on: July 05, 2014, 11:58:40 AM »
Part of me always plays 'what if.' The Pope who opened Vatican II died. Someone else had to finish.

I always wonder what would have happened had the one who actually called the conference, gotten to finish it. We may have had very different results.

Except that "what if's" will get you nowhere.

Ain't that the truth.
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Offline biro

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #285 on: July 05, 2014, 11:59:45 AM »
Part of me always plays 'what if.' The Pope who opened Vatican II died. Someone else had to finish.

I always wonder what would have happened had the one who actually called the conference, gotten to finish it. We may have had very different results.

Except that "what if's" will get you nowhere.

Not always. 'What if?'s got me into the Orthodox Church.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #286 on: July 05, 2014, 12:56:31 PM »
I couldn't bear to read through every post, so if I'm repeating something someone already mentioned, please forgive me.

In answer to the OP: Which Catholic Church?  Pre-Vatican II or post-Vatican II?  They seem to me, even with so many similarities, to be almost 2 different Churches/faiths altogether.  


That's not really a good sign coming from a Catholic person, and a bit sad, too.

Well, the post VII Church is in a very, very sad and sorry state.  Dare I say, almost as much Protestant as "Catholic".  (Maybe more so?)

Can you please explain that more ? Like what is Protestant in the Catholic Church ?

Whole articles and books have addressed this.  I don't have the time to answer your question in the manner that it deserves, so I would invite you to do your own research.  You might take as a starting point the differences, both in form and substance, between the Novus Ordo Mass and the pre-VII Latin Mass.  Did you know that protestant theologians were brought in for "consultation" in the formation of the N.O. Mass?  Unbelievable, really!!

http://www.lms.org.uk/resources/comparison-between-the-traditional-and-novus-ordo-missals

http://www.traditionalmass.org/versus/

Work of Human Hands: A Theological Critique of the Mass of Paul VI by Fr. Anthony Cekada.  Check it out here.

The Ottaviani Intervention: Short Critical Study of the New Order of Mass Here.

Resources about this abound.
And the books and authors have an agenda.  If one doesn't like the NO the easy accusation is that it is Protestant.  Except of course those who have been to Protestant services and realize they would never contemplate some of the nonsense that occurs in the Latin Church, which has everything to do with attitude and nothing to do with the form or substance of the NO. 
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline J Michael

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #287 on: July 05, 2014, 02:59:44 PM »
I couldn't bear to read through every post, so if I'm repeating something someone already mentioned, please forgive me.

In answer to the OP: Which Catholic Church?  Pre-Vatican II or post-Vatican II?  They seem to me, even with so many similarities, to be almost 2 different Churches/faiths altogether.  


That's not really a good sign coming from a Catholic person, and a bit sad, too.

Well, the post VII Church is in a very, very sad and sorry state.  Dare I say, almost as much Protestant as "Catholic".  (Maybe more so?)

Can you please explain that more ? Like what is Protestant in the Catholic Church ?

Whole articles and books have addressed this.  I don't have the time to answer your question in the manner that it deserves, so I would invite you to do your own research.  You might take as a starting point the differences, both in form and substance, between the Novus Ordo Mass and the pre-VII Latin Mass.  Did you know that protestant theologians were brought in for "consultation" in the formation of the N.O. Mass?  Unbelievable, really!!

http://www.lms.org.uk/resources/comparison-between-the-traditional-and-novus-ordo-missals

http://www.traditionalmass.org/versus/

Work of Human Hands: A Theological Critique of the Mass of Paul VI by Fr. Anthony Cekada.  Check it out here.

The Ottaviani Intervention: Short Critical Study of the New Order of Mass Here.

Resources about this abound.
And the books and authors have an agenda.  If one doesn't like the NO the easy accusation is that it is Protestant.  Except of course those who have been to Protestant services and realize they would never contemplate some of the nonsense that occurs in the Latin Church, which has everything to do with attitude and nothing to do with the form or substance of the NO. 

Of course they have an agenda.  Is there something inherently wrong with that?  They want a return to the Catholic Church as it was before VII.  And...really...who could blame them?  Not me!

I've been to a few Protestant services, though, thankfully not many.  What I see in the N.O. Mass as served up at my local parish, which even looks Protestant for the most part, is eerily similar.  Not identical, of course, thanks be to God...but yes, eerily similar.

I recognize that the N.O. Mass is "valid", etc., etc. and that the Eucharist IS the Body and Blood of Christ (though, sometimes one might wonder, given certain priests).  But it is a completely watered down, totally bland, vanilla poor imitation of what preceded it and not even close to the splendor of the Divine Liturgy.  The minimalists seem to have, if not won outright, then dealt some extremely damaging blows to the Catholic Church, her liturgical practices, and her theology--so much so that when I actually SEE a Latin Mass and SEE and experience a D.L. and compare and contrast it to even a pretty reverent N.O. Mass, I am left aghast.
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline J Michael

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Re: What do you think of the Catholic Church ?
« Reply #288 on: July 05, 2014, 03:01:33 PM »
Part of me always plays 'what if.' The Pope who opened Vatican II died. Someone else had to finish.

I always wonder what would have happened had the one who actually called the conference, gotten to finish it. We may have had very different results.

Except that "what if's" will get you nowhere.

Not always. 'What if?'s got me into the Orthodox Church.

Forgive me if I beg to differ.  I'll go out on a limb and suggest that it wasn't "what if", but rather the Holy Spirit in unison with a willing heart. :)
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)