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Author Topic: why are more women converting than men to Islam??  (Read 3575 times) Average Rating: 0
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united
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« on: April 20, 2004, 07:58:34 AM »

why are more women converting than men to Islam ?
Perhaps they realize their Soul is worth the Factual Research.

1. The Bible Convicts Women as the original
Sinners, (ie. Eve picking from the forbidden
tree){Genesis 2:4-3:24}. The Koran Clarifies it
was Adam Not Eve {Qur'an 7:19-25}

2. The Bible says "The Birth of a Daughter is a
loss" {Ecclesiasticus 22:3}. The Qur'an says both
are an Equal Blessing { Qur'an 42:49}

3. The Bible Forbids Women from Speaking in
church {I Corinthians 14:34-35}. The Qur'an says
Women Can argue with the Prophet {58:1}

4. In the Bible, divorced Women are Labeled as
an Adulteress, while men are not {Matthew 5:31-32}. The
Koran does Not have Biblical double standards
{ Qur'an 30:21}

5. In The Bible, Widows and Sisters do Not
Inherit Any Property or Wealth, Only men
do{Numbers 27:1-11}The Koran Abolished this
male greediness { Qur'an 4:22} and God Protects
All.


6. The Bible Allows Multiple Wives{I Kings 11:3}
In The Koran, God limits the number to 4 only
under certain situations (with the Wife's
permission)and Prefers you Marry Only One
Wife{ Qur'an 4:3} The Koran gives the Woman
the Right to Choose who to Marry.


7. "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not
pledged to be married and rapes her and they are
discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty
shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he
has violated her. He can never divorce her as long
as he lives" {Deuteronomy 22:28-30}


One must ask a simple question here, who is
really punished, the man who raped the woman or
the woman who was raped? According to the
Bible, you have to spend the Rest of Your Life
with the man who Raped You.


The Prophet Muhammad Says {Volume 9, Book
86, Number 101} Narrated by Aisha:" It is
essential to have the consent of a virgin (for the
marriage)".


Would the Christian men Reading this prefer the
Women they know to Be Christian or Muslim?


8. The Bible also asks Women to wear veils as in
Islam {I Corinthians 11:3-10}, this lowers the
chance of rape, (God Forbid), see statistic link
below.


9. Women were given rights to Vote less than a
100 years ago in the (US), while the Quran (42:38) gave
Women Voting rights almost 1,500 years ago.

10. Islam has unconfined Women and has given them
the human right to reach for the sky. There have been
Muslim Women Presidents through out the centuries,
but to this date, the oppressive mentality of the
men in the Western U.S.A. has stopped any Women from becoming
Presidents in predominately Christian countries,
while the Muslim countries have voted for and
elected Female Presidents.


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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2004, 08:10:05 AM »

Dear united,

I am well aware of your liberal strand of Islam and I respect it.  I have been to India twice and many of the Muslims there think like you.  However, the majority of Muslims don't; see for instance this recent article:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/19/saudi.batteredhost.ap/index.html

The Bible may contain such verses (which you have taken out of the old Testament mostly, verses which have a Jewish ceremonial purity context, etc, that we Christians no longer apply), but the Islamic tradition has its moments, too; I find that the liberal Muslims try to forget about the hadiths, when, in fact, the hadiths are equally binding.  And we all know the hadiths have some very outrageous statements in them.  In fact, I will look for a few.

anastasios
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2004, 08:13:03 AM »

Oh come on.  The proof is in the pudding.  Which countries are those in which women enjoy greater rights, freedom and equality?  The Christian ones or the Muslim ones?
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2004, 08:17:26 AM »

Here are some interesting hadiths:

Vol 1, Book 6. Menstrual Periods. Hadith 299.
Narrated By 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad : (On the authority of his father) 'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an Izar and start fondling her." 'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could."

Vol 1, Book 6. Menstrual Periods. Hadith 301.
Narrated By Abu Said Al-Khudri : Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."

Vol 1, Book 6. Menstrual Periods. Hadith 315.
Narrated By Anas bin Malik : The Prophet said, "At every womb Allah appoints an angel who says, 'O Lord! A drop of semen, O Lord! A clot. O Lord! A little lump of flesh." Then if Allah wishes (to complete) its creation, the angel asks, (O Lord!) Will it be a male or female, a wretched or a blessed, and how much will his provision be? And what will his age be?' So all that is written while the child is still in the mother's womb."
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2004, 08:21:21 AM »

Vol 7, Book 62. Wedlock, Marriage (Nikaah). Hadith 007.
Narrated By Said bin Jubair : Ibn 'Abbas asked me, "Are you married?" I replied, "No." He said, "Marry, for the best person of this (Muslim) nation (i.e., Muhammad) of all other Muslims, had the largest number of wives."

Vol 7, Book 62. Wedlock, Marriage (Nikaah). Hadith 013A.
Narrated By 'Abdullah : We used to participate in the holy battles led by Allah's Apostle and we had nothing (no wives) with us. So we said, "Shall we get ourselves castrated?" He forbade us that and then allowed us to marry women with a temporary contract (2) and recited to us: 'O you who believe ! Make not unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you, but commit no transgression.' (5.87)
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2004, 08:24:46 AM »

 Smiley
Brendan......i'm united for peace and Justice:)
there is a big difference between muslims.....and islam
as the difference between madonna and .....lady madonna!
peace
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2004, 08:26:56 AM »

Vol 7, Book 63. Divorce. Hadith 180.
Narrated By Ibn 'Umar : (Divorcing my wife during her menses) was counted as one legal divorce.

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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2004, 08:27:23 AM »

United --

any unity in peace and justice must be based on reality, not utopian or theoretical visions, however seductive they may be.  Similarly, an assessment of "Islam" can only be made on the basis of the reality of Islam, not a theoretical analysis divorced from the reality ... I would argue the same can be said of Christianity, by the way.

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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2004, 08:29:36 AM »

my dear friend ,,
my name is firas and do not think i posted that to make a problem...not at all
i respect christianity and as you know there is a chapter in the holy quran called "mariam"(marry)(pbuh)
my friend ,read what stavro posted and then you will understand ...
thank you anyway for your reply:)
united for peace and JUSTICE
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2004, 08:31:44 AM »

Firas,

By posting a link that tries to say that the Bible looks down on women while the Koran exults women is starting a controversy Smiley

anastasios
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2004, 08:41:50 AM »

I agree with Anastasios.  You can't simply post things on an Orthodox Christian forum insinuating that Islam is more egalitarian towards women than Christianity is, and then simply walk away saying you didn't wish to start a discussion.
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2004, 09:58:03 AM »

Firas,

By posting a link that tries to say that the Bible looks down on women while the Koran exults women is starting a controversy Smiley

anastasios

But a good controversy, anastasios, a good one  Wink.
Given the Mohammed never understood the place of the Theotokos, this should be a good discussion if Firas is game.
I am interested in his definition of "peace and JUSTICE", however. Being of both Greek and Christian Laz descent (those few Laz who remained Christian), I have some opinions on the Moslem concept of "peace" and "JUSTICE", but need to read Firas's definition.

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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2004, 01:10:53 PM »

United,
what did I post ? Please do not run away, come back and discuss the issue as a grown-up. Whenver I write about Islam, I refer to Islamic books, you own books you consider authoritive. Muslims don't reciprocate the courtesy and they use a technique more like you: Post without proof and run........

Let us look with more caution into the claims you made in the next post.
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2004, 01:15:59 PM »

First of all,united, do you know arabic, or did they tell you that the lies about Islam that you posted ? I see many muslims in the West who do not know arabic and are therefore fooled by the religion of "Peace". Even the English Quran is washed down from the child rape, the beating of women, and other fornications. The reason why is that muslims believe in a thing called "tekia" , which is "lying for the sake of God and Islam".  

Answer this so I can know your level of Knowledge (or ignorance) and can refute your post accordingly.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2004, 01:28:16 PM by Stavro » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2004, 03:01:02 PM »

The proof is in the pudding.  My wife (a Christian woman) has repeatedly said that she will not (voluntarily) set foot in a Muslim country.  Most of the Islamic states that have women in positions of authority are by and large "secular" Islamic states (e.g.: Turkey, Pakistan somewhat).  It's not just a coincidence that women are treated poorly in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc!  It's a direct result of the more fundamentalist Islam practiced there.

By contrast, the most perfect Christian was a woman (the Theotokos) -- one who was obedient to God's will to the fullest.  To imply that Islam treats women "better" than Christianity is to distort reality.
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2004, 03:06:15 PM »

Also, I don't understand how any faith that advocates one-sided polygamy (a man having multiple wives, and not a woman having multiple husbands) can be said to honor women.  Just the opposite, I think.  Just have a look at reality.  If you were a woman, would you voluntarily choose to live in Iran?
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2004, 03:51:55 PM »

islam is not saudia is not pakistan is not india is not iraq
usa is not christian country france is not a christian country sweden is not a christian country
the only "country" that you can call it a christian country is the vatican ....maybe......
example for more explanation: the country: usa
                                                  the constitution: the bible
then we can compare between country!
thank you


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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2004, 02:46:34 PM »

Why do we mostly, if not exclusively hear the words Tolerance, peace, submission, justice when referring to Islam and very rarely hear the words: Love, Understanding, Forgiveness, Compassion.  Is  this a cultural thing or is it intended not to emphasize these attributes of Charity?  

JoeS   Huh
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« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2004, 03:01:46 PM »

Why?  From things I've read, some of the women convert because they fell in love with a muslim man and want to marry him.  Also, from what I've read, it's permitted for a muslim man to marry a non-muslim woman (with I suspect the intention that she'll convert) while it's forbidden for a muslim woman to marry a non-muslim man.

And just for a prime example of how women have been treated by some practitioners of Islam read "My Forbidden Face: Growing Up Under the Taliban A Young Woman's Story" by "Latifa" (a pseudonymn for protection)

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« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2004, 03:27:36 PM »

Peter Farrington, who used to write here and is English, once wrote something about it being a last chance for 'plain' English women who desperately wanted husbands and children, taking advantage of the immigration/population boom of Muslims there. (Saw the big new mosque on its way up in Birmingham years ago, and a British priest recently told me there are primary schools in England that while still officially Church of England are 100% Muslim students.*) Conversion's a small price to pay in their minds.

al-Islam... the Mormonism of Eastern Christianity.

They may hate me but I respect them.

*Some RC schools in now-ghettos in big American cities may be very similar - serving mostly non-RC kids and parents.
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« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2004, 05:11:31 PM »

stavro,i'm a person that i know 4 languages:arabic,french english and spanish
i work and coordinate with 21 international organisation all around the world,i'm not welcome in france and the usa and some african states and arab states.....
i read the tarot , the bible (english version and arabic version)and the quran...
please i would be happy if you can send those sentences that include any of rape and beating concepts against women and child
united for peace and JUSTICE
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« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2004, 06:11:12 PM »

This really belongs in Free-For-All...not sure why it hasn't been moved before now...anyway, way hey and away we go!
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« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2004, 06:34:06 PM »

United, please tell me that you mean "Torah" as in the Hebrew Old Testament and not "tarot" as in the cards.
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« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2004, 07:00:49 PM »

stavro,i'm a person that i know 4 languages:arabic,french english and spanish
i work and coordinate with 21 international organisation all around the world,i'm not welcome in france and the usa and some african states and arab states.....
i read the tarot , the bible (english version and arabic version)and the quran...
please i would be happy if you can send those sentences that include any of rape and beating concepts against women and child
united for peace and JUSTICE
I myself am welcome in most countries.  In regards to your request, there are verses in the Quran which mention how it is permissible to have sex with ones female slaves.  Of course, the fact that Mohammed not only allowed for slavery, but also for the rape of slaves is an abomination.  See the Quran 4:24 for just one example.  Of course, Mohammed was also quite ignorant of Christianity, thinking that the Christian concept of the Trinity consisted of Allah, Jesus and Mary!  This error can be found in the Quran, 5:116.
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« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2004, 05:23:08 AM »

Point 10 of United's list made me smile in particular:

10. Islam has unconfined Women and has given them
the human right to reach for the sky. There have been
Muslim Women Presidents through out the centuries,
but to this date, the oppressive mentality of the
men in the Western U.S.A. has stopped any Women from becoming
Presidents in predominately Christian countries,
while the Muslim countries have voted for and
elected Female Presidents.

Islam has unconfined women and given them the human right to reach for the sky???  Yeah, like the Taliban did for the women of Afghanistan? I watched a BBC reporter attempt to talk with a woman on the streets of Kabul about what life was like for her in the post-Taliban era and a male passerby immediately picked up a stick and started hitting the woman. Not a single onlooker did anything to stop it. The reporter abandoned the interview rather than risk any further harm to the poor woman.

Then we had the sexual double-standard of Islam clearly revealed in the case of the Nigerian woman sentenced to be stoned to death for adultery. Why was the man who had made her pregnant and abandoned her not in court as well?

Christian countries never elect women as presidents? Ireland is currently on its second, and a good northern woman she is too! Neither is President McAleese from a powerful political dynasty like Benazir Bhutto was. Come on, United, how representative is somebody like Benazir Bhutto of the realities of women's lives in Pakistan?

This entire list is wholly unconvincing propaganda. I notice it never once mentioned the interaction of Our Lord himself with women. He even discussed theology with one at a well, a woman who would have been a prime candidate for stoning to death under Islamic law!

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« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2004, 09:23:18 AM »

You're right, Brigid. The only person to win a theological arguement with Jesus was a woman and a gentile woman at that: the Syro-Phoenecian woman and "Even the dogs eat the crumbs".  And I second you on the list being unconvincing propaganda.  

Islam lets women reach for the sky?  Maybe, but in Saudi Arabia they can't drive cars, or go out alone or leave unless they have permission from a male relative.  Women in Iran getting beaten and cut for wearing lipstick or showing a little hair slipping out from under the scarf.  There are a number of books on the subject.

The US may not have had a woman president yet, but the first woman elected to congress, Jeannette Rankin, was from Montana in 1915 (Before women could vote in National Elections.  Western states gave voting rights in state elections long before the East).  

Ebor
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« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2004, 05:46:30 AM »


The US may not have had a woman president yet, but the first woman elected to congress, Jeannette Rankin, was from Montana in 1915 (Before women could vote in National Elections.  Western states gave voting rights in state elections long before the East).  

Ebor

Indeed, Ebor and many of the women who struggled for the vote on both sides of the Atlantic were staunchly Christian, a fact that is often overlooked by secular feminists today. Is a woman president something you think you will see in your own lifetime?

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« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2004, 06:05:35 PM »

I think it's possible that there will be a woman president in my lifetime (but being nearly 48 makes it a shorter set of time then for some  Smiley ).  

Reading the history of the suffragist movement can be quite interesting. As you say, many of them were staunch Christians who were derided for wanting the Vote as it was "Wanting to be like Men".  The imprisoning and ill-treament of the women on both sides of the Atlantic was sometimes appalling.  Interesting how asking for basic human dignities was construed as asking to be like men.   But, bringing the original topic into this, for all of the seemingly woman-affirming quotes that United listed in the first post, the same sort of thing and even worse is done to women in many Islamic countries; killings and imprisonment for things that if men do them, they get off scott-free.  When a woman's testimony is not worth as much as a man's in court for example that's not something I would want for my daughter.

Have you ever read a book by Dorothy L. Sayers called "Are Women Human"?  She was a Christian (Anglican) who wrote among other things radio plays on the life of Christ and other religious subjects.  It's a lecture she gave many years ago on the idea that when men do things for human (homo) reasons like physical comfort or mental stimulation, a woman does the same thing for a women's (femina) (i.e. not serious).  One example I recall was riding on a bus on the side that's closer to the curb.  Men do it be cause it's more comfortable due to the camber of the road, women so they can look in the shop windows. But if a woman wants to do something that men are doing like voting or getting a university education then she's accused of wanting to act like a man (vir).

Ebor
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« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2004, 12:52:11 PM »

Ebor, Greetings on the Sunday of the Myrrh-Bearing Women! I agree with all you said. I sometimes go to talks at a local interfaith forum and heard a most interesting address by a Sufi. In the questions afterwards the question of the status of women in Islam inevitably came up. His response was that it was a question of culture overriding the religious precepts of Islam, which I didn't find terribly satisfactory. I read a really tragic article in the Guardian newspaper on Friday which recorded an upsurge in Afghan women ending their lives by setting fire to themselves. Women are choosing this kind of horrific death as an expression of despair at the lack of change or opportunity in post-Taliban Afghanistan. So much for Islamic women being able to reach for the sky as the propaganda list posted here would have us believe.

I have indeed read Dorothy L Sayers and feel she is someone whose life and work should be rescued from obscurity and dusted off for another generation to rediscover.

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« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2004, 04:14:30 PM »

Would it be correct to say that the Gentile woman ''won a theological argument'' with Christ? As the Son of the Living God and God Himself, Christ ought to have His theology straight, or am I mistaken? I read that He was ''testing'' the woman. He initially refused to perform the healing she requested under the pretext that she was not Jewish, but she did not give up, and argued further in favor of His granting her request. He finally declared that her faith was great, and performed the healing. I think Christ did this as an example to others, I.E. that a Gentile had stronger faith than Jews, or something.
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Ebor
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« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2004, 02:54:16 PM »

Is this case, "argument" does not mean one person being wrong and being set right by another, but a working out of a position.  Then again, Jesus did relent and grant the woman's request for healing due to her faith.  Perhaps "theological point or discussion" would be a better term.  Recall that the Pharisees and Sadducees never got Jesus to do what they wanted (re miracles, or falling into trick questions or the like.)

Ebor
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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
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