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Author Topic: "I'm a Pentecostal" - (video)  (Read 2076 times) Average Rating: 0
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88Devin12
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« on: December 27, 2010, 04:32:15 PM »

We watched this video this semester in a class:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vd_C5KX_lk

Thoughts?

Personally I was shocked, especially when I learned they were "Oneness" Pentecostals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism
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« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2010, 04:44:26 PM »

It seems like they are pumping themselves up with pride instead of worshipping.

I had to look at the Wikipedia article for Oneness Pentecostalism when I opened this thread. It seems to me that Oneness Pentecostals are only formalizing what a great many other Pentecostal denominations have settled into anyway. My grandparents are Free Holiness. While if you go decades back and look at the writings of the founders, they might show adherence to Trinitarian theology, nowadays any philosophical thought on the nature of God is discouraged. They'll just point you to the KJV, without being specific about what you're supposed to find there. If you push them on what they think about the Godhead, you'll find either the vague teaching of God as some kind of three of Oneness Pentecostalism, or outright Arian thinking.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 04:45:45 PM by CRCulver » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2010, 05:31:24 PM »

We watched this video this semester in a class:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vd_C5KX_lk

Thoughts?

Personally I was shocked, especially when I learned they were "Oneness" Pentecostals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism

What class was this in?  How was its presentation framed?  As CRCulver pointed out, it certainly isn't worship.  It is a hymn to self.  But lots of "praise songs" are like that.  Not that there aren't, or that there can't be great "praise music" (I use that in terms of the genre of music, such as rock, pop, jazz, praise...), but when theology is subordinate to the drum beat and rhyme scheme it becomes less and less likely that will happen.

As far as this specific song, not much can or should be said about it.  It is more of an un-song than a song.  It actually brings to mind (in tangential fashion) an episode of the Simpsons where the family goes to the church ice cream social:

Lisa:              Wow, look at all these flavors!  Blessed Virgin
              Berry, Command-Mint, Bible Gum?
Rev. Lovejoy:   Or, if you prefer, we also have Unitarian ice cream.
              [hands Lisa an empty bowl]
Lisa:              There's nothing here.
Lovejoy:           Exactly.
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« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2010, 07:03:58 PM »

If you push them on what they think about the Godhead, you'll find either the vague teaching of God as some kind of three of Oneness Pentecostalism, or outright Arian thinking.

Have you ever been Pentecostal yourself? I'm asking because non-Pestecostals might have hard time understanding it. I don't know about American Pentecostals but I know a little bit about their Finnish counterpart since I grew up in a Pentecostal family. While articulation of their doctrines might be a little fuzzy and sometimes they seem to fail to distinguish persons from essence on verbal level in the end they adhere to trinitarian understanding of God. For example a person who does not adhere to trinitarian understanding of God wouldn't get Eucharist in normal/mainstream Pentecostal parishes.

As for the song in that video:  Grin Grin Grin I think I liked it so much that I'm going to modify my signature a bit...
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 07:19:49 PM by Alpo » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2010, 07:19:25 PM »

Have you ever been Pentecostal yourself?

Not by conviction, but I did participate in Free Holiness events many times when I was growing up because most of my father's side of the family belongs to this Pentecostal offshoot.

Quote
For example a person who does not adhere to trinitarian understanding of God wouldn't get Eucharist in normal/mainstream Pentecostal parishes.

There was no doctrine of the Eucharist at all in the Free Holiness tradition. The closest I've ever seen to it is that the pastor of my family's village got himself professionally photographed praying over a Bible next to a glass of grape juice and a chunk of bread. These elements are never consecrated at services and distributed to the people.
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« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2010, 07:27:48 PM »

There was no doctrine of the Eucharist at all in the Free Holiness tradition. The closest I've ever seen to it is that the pastor of my family's village got himself professionally photographed praying over a Bible next to a glass of grape juice and a chunk of bread. These elements are never consecrated at services and distributed to the people.

Is this "Free Holiness" thing a Finnish movement or something else? I'm asking since I can't speak for non-Finnish movements. All I'm saying that your first post in this thread is a little misguided since all Pentecostals I know in Finland would most certainly deem non-trinitarian "Christians" as outright heretics and say it aloud. Political correctness is not their cup of tea.

Finnish Pentecostals tend interpret Eucharist in a somewhat symbolic way but they most certainly won't distribute it to non-believers and non-trinitarian believers such as Jehovah's Witnesses and Oneness Pentecostals would be qualified as non-believers.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 07:36:58 PM by Alpo » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2010, 07:43:33 PM »

There was no doctrine of the Eucharist at all in the Free Holiness tradition. The closest I've ever seen to it is that the pastor of my family's village got himself professionally photographed praying over a Bible next to a glass of grape juice and a chunk of bread. These elements are never consecrated at services and distributed to the people.

Is this "Free Holiness" thing a Finnish movement or something else? I'm asking since I can't speak for non-Finnish movements. All I'm saying that your first post in this thread is a little misguided since all Pentecostals I know in Finland would most certainly deem non-trinitarian "Christians" as outright heretics and say it aloud. Political correctness is not their cup of tea.

Finnish Pentecostals tend interpret Eucharist in a somewhat symbolic way but they most certainly won't distribute it to non-believers and non-trinitarian believers such as Jehovah's Witnesses and Oneness Pentecostals would be qualified as non-believers.

There is a difference between Pentecostals and Oneness Pentecostals.  Oneness Pentecostals are not trinitarian, but rather Sabellianist.   
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« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2010, 07:50:22 PM »

Is this "Free Holiness" thing a Finnish movement or something else? I'm asking since I can't speak for non-Finnish movements. All I'm saying that your first post in this thread is a little misguided since all Pentecostals I know in Finland would most certainly deem non-trinitarian "Christians" as outright heretics and say it aloud.

Free Holiness is a denomination from the American Deep South, though it spread to Indiana and Illinois in mid-century when Alabamans started migrating up there for work. It's from the homeland of Pentecostalism and I find it representative of the general tradition -- there are a plethora of other Pentecostal offshoots in the area with different names, and obviously my family would say that these other churches are mistaken and possibly hellbound, but in worship and in doctrine (or lack thereof) they are pretty much all the same.

One of my neighbours here in Romania is Pentecostal, belongs to some church set up by American missionaries. Again, they don't celebrate the Eucharist nor do they have any clear beliefs about God except "it's in the Bible". Now, Finnish Pentecostals (and where are these people? I've never seen them in Helsinki) might do things different, but the phenomenon of passionate singing, dancing and speaking in tongues coupled to a complete lack of serious theology is not limited to the US.
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« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2010, 07:52:13 PM »

I would be careful about the song lyrics...

"We worship one God, Jesus is his name."

This isn't a statement that we Orthodox can make, at least in the context of the song. Onenness Pentecostals essentially reject the Holy Trinity and say they only worship Jesus.

The class was a religion class looking at different perspectives of Jesus throughout history. This was shown during a lecture about Pentecostalism.
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« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2010, 08:16:49 PM »

Free Holiness is a denomination from the American Deep South, though it spread to Indiana and Illinois in mid-century when Alabamans started migrating up there for work. It's from the homeland of Pentecostalism and I find it representative of the general tradition -- there are a plethora of other Pentecostal offshoots in the area with different names, and obviously my family would say that these other churches are mistaken and possibly hellbound, but in worship and in doctrine (or lack thereof) they are pretty much all the same.
They are pretty much all the same for the most part but not always exactly. For example Karelian and Estonian Pentecostals have bishops whereas Finns have not. There are also some other minor differences.

Anyway, Finns might lack proper theological terminology but they adhere to trinity anyway. Perhaps this "Free Holiness" movement represents Oneness Pentecostal tradition which is almost unknown in Finland.

Quote
Now, Finnish Pentecostals (and where are these people? I've never seen them in Helsinki) might do things different, but the phenomenon of passionate singing, dancing and speaking in tongues coupled to a complete lack of serious theology is not limited to the US.
Well for that I can agree. At least for the most part since recently there's been some attempts for serious theology at least in Finland. Anyway, in general and traditionally that's rather true.

And to answer your question, they are about everywhere. I think there's not so many communes in Finland that doesn't have some kind of Pentecostal parish or at least a prayer group. They might be small but they exist altogether. In Helsinki there are Pentecostal parishes at least in Hakaniemi and Töölö but they are not the only one. There's some others due to different kinds of schisms and factions. They might be theoretically smaller than more traditional churches but I believe that there might be more church-going Pentecostals than church-going EOs in Helsinki.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 08:23:18 PM by Alpo » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2010, 10:24:47 PM »

I am an ex-Pentecostal myself. For the last 5 years I was a member of the Church of God denomination here in the US, and it is Trinitarian. There are plenty of Oneness Pentecostals as well, which we've always termed "Jesus-Only." The Oneness crowd tend toward a Modalism/Sabellianism approach to the Godhead...but they don't always make a clear distinction unless pressed. Take the popular TV evangelist T.D. Jakes...his roots, and original ministerial license, are from a Oneness Pentecostal church. All of this aside, I would definitely define this "song" as a Oneness-themed anthem. However, when it comes to worship, all Pentecostals are essentially the same. Their focus is on what they interpret as the "Holy Ghost," and the experiences they have while being "baptized" by him. Since leaving the sect, I find Father Seraphim Rose's words to best define them...they operate in Prelest. The only other seeming explanation would be possession by Hindu Kunda Lini spirits, where practitioners act the same as the pentecostals do. I praise the Lord God for bringing myself and my family out of the darkness and into the light and Truth which is the Holy Orthodox Church. Amen....
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« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2011, 07:40:46 PM »

Ack. Stockton?! Too close!  Sad
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2011, 12:08:59 AM »

hm....my pentecostal friend told me her church says it's a sin to dance to music.  odd, considering that's what's going on in the video.
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2011, 12:17:07 AM »

Lisa:              Wow, look at all these flavors!  Blessed Virgin
              Berry, Command-Mint, Bible Gum?
Rev. Lovejoy:   Or, if you prefer, we also have Unitarian ice cream.
              [hands Lisa an empty bowl]
Lisa:              There's nothing here.
Lovejoy:           Exactly.

 Cheesy  That reminds me of this joke:

What do you get when you cross a Jehovah's Witness and a Unitarian?

Someone who rings your doorbell for no apparent reason.
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2011, 12:59:52 AM »

What do you get when you cross a Jehovah's Witness and a Unitarian?

Someone who rings your doorbell for no apparent reason.

I'm totally stealing this.
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« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2011, 10:47:14 PM »

Lisa:              Wow, look at all these flavors!  Blessed Virgin
              Berry, Command-Mint, Bible Gum?
Rev. Lovejoy:   Or, if you prefer, we also have Unitarian ice cream.
              [hands Lisa an empty bowl]
Lisa:              There's nothing here.
Lovejoy:           Exactly.

 Cheesy  That reminds me of this joke:

What do you get when you cross a Jehovah's Witness and a Unitarian?

Someone who rings your doorbell for no apparent reason.
I laughed for entirely too long at this.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Back to the OP... I looked through the comments, and this actually made a Baptist say that he was going to join Pentecostalism just because of that song. Really drives home "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything."
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« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2011, 11:12:17 PM »

Let's get out of those dead churches people!
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