Author Topic: Question about Copes  (Read 3432 times)

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Offline samkim

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Question about Copes
« on: December 26, 2010, 07:16:40 PM »
Okay, so I notice that there are two different kinds of copes, one that just looks like a cape, and another kind with a "stiff neck," sort of like a Russian Phelonion. Are they distinguished with any terminology? What are "stiff-necked" copes actually called? I notice many Anglicans use the "stiff-necked" ones, while the flat ones seem more common with Roman Catholic churchmen.
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Offline Ionnis

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Re: Question about Copes
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2010, 10:58:50 PM »
Are you thinking of the chasuble and the cope?  The cope oftentimes has a stiff neck, whereas the chasuble lays flat.  Roman Catholic priests wear the chasuble during the mass.  Anglicans priests sometimes wear the cope instead of the chasuble during the mass, which is not allowed for according to Roman rubrics.  I have seen some flat copes, but from what I understand, those are relatively new.  I think they are ugly.  Sorry if I didn't answer your question.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 11:07:54 PM by Ionnis »
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Offline Keble

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Re: Question about Copes
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2010, 11:53:34 PM »
Working from Beryl Dean here, one of the more important vestment designers of the last century: At the end of the middle ages the cope unfolded into a semicircle and the orphreys (that is, the bands along the front edges) became increasingly wide and stiff. The result of forcing this into the shape of a cloak was a conical garment which the bishop stood inside almost like a teepee. At the same time the hood unfolded into a decorative flap. People who want to assert Tradition prefer that form, but the tendency has been for it to revert to being properly cloak-shaped and for the hood to be formed as such.

The chasuble is different: it is always formed with a hole in the center for the head. Again, after the middle ages the sides of the chasuble tended to disappear to free the arms for elevations, so that you ended up with the "fiddleback" form with a rectangle on the back and a cutaway shape on the front. The more modern form evolved separately from the Gothic form (which was indeed more or less conical but which was joined up the front, unlike the cope) and which tended to flatten out until it became a flat circle. There are names for the different chasuble forms, but not for the copes.

Offline samkim

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Re: Question about Copes
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2010, 06:00:11 PM »
Are you thinking of the chasuble and the cope?  The cope oftentimes has a stiff neck, whereas the chasuble lays flat.  Roman Catholic priests wear the chasuble during the mass.  Anglicans priests sometimes wear the cope instead of the chasuble during the mass, which is not allowed for according to Roman rubrics.  I have seen some flat copes, but from what I understand, those are relatively new.  I think they are ugly.  Sorry if I didn't answer your question.

No, I know what chasubles are. I'm talking about copes.

"Stiff-necked"


Flat:
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 06:05:26 PM by samkim »
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Offline samkim

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Re: Question about Copes
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2010, 06:08:42 PM »
Working from Beryl Dean here, one of the more important vestment designers of the last century: At the end of the middle ages the cope unfolded into a semicircle and the orphreys (that is, the bands along the front edges) became increasingly wide and stiff. The result of forcing this into the shape of a cloak was a conical garment which the bishop stood inside almost like a teepee. At the same time the hood unfolded into a decorative flap. People who want to assert Tradition prefer that form, but the tendency has been for it to revert to being properly cloak-shaped and for the hood to be formed as such.

The chasuble is different: it is always formed with a hole in the center for the head. Again, after the middle ages the sides of the chasuble tended to disappear to free the arms for elevations, so that you ended up with the "fiddleback" form with a rectangle on the back and a cutaway shape on the front. The more modern form evolved separately from the Gothic form (which was indeed more or less conical but which was joined up the front, unlike the cope) and which tended to flatten out until it became a flat circle. There are names for the different chasuble forms, but not for the copes.

I wonder why the chasuble's/phelonion's equivalent vestment among the Syrians and Armenians resembles more a cope.


« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 06:12:01 PM by samkim »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Question about Copes
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2010, 12:02:32 PM »
Working from Beryl Dean here, one of the more important vestment designers of the last century: At the end of the middle ages the cope unfolded into a semicircle and the orphreys (that is, the bands along the front edges) became increasingly wide and stiff. The result of forcing this into the shape of a cloak was a conical garment which the bishop stood inside almost like a teepee. At the same time the hood unfolded into a decorative flap. People who want to assert Tradition prefer that form, but the tendency has been for it to revert to being properly cloak-shaped and for the hood to be formed as such.

The chasuble is different: it is always formed with a hole in the center for the head. Again, after the middle ages the sides of the chasuble tended to disappear to free the arms for elevations, so that you ended up with the "fiddleback" form with a rectangle on the back and a cutaway shape on the front. The more modern form evolved separately from the Gothic form (which was indeed more or less conical but which was joined up the front, unlike the cope) and which tended to flatten out until it became a flat circle. There are names for the different chasuble forms, but not for the copes.

I wonder why the chasuble's/phelonion's equivalent vestment among the Syrians and Armenians resembles more a cope.




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Offline stashko

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Re: Question about Copes
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2010, 03:16:43 PM »
Why is the syrian/indian priest wearing a different stole that resembles a latin one, and the other priests on his right and left are wearing the Orthodox Looking One....... ???
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 03:27:33 PM by stashko »
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Offline samkim

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Re: Question about Copes
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2010, 04:40:03 PM »
Why is the syrian/indian priest wearing a different stole that resembles a latin one, and the other priests on his right and left are wearing the Orthodox Looking One....... ???


I think I accidentally found a picture of a Syriac Catholic priest instead of Syriac Orthodox. No matter, his phayno (phelonion/chasuble/cope) is the same as a Syriac Orthodox phayno.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 04:41:00 PM by samkim »
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Offline Keble

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Re: Question about Copes
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2010, 07:06:36 PM »
Samkin, of the two examples you show the top one would be considered a more traditionalist version, the second more modern in form. I found one place describing the modern cut as "French" but I think they are making this term up, as none of the others use it that I can see.

Offline Dewi Sant

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Re: Question about Copes
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2011, 10:47:57 PM »
Perhaps, like Russia, Britain is colder than Rome and it is more comfortable for the priest to have the extra warmth round the neck. Just a theory.

Of course, the priest ought to change into a chasuble before Mass.
I do have to wonder therefore quite why the cope is worn in church at all, surely it is an outdoor vestment.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Question about Copes
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2011, 11:05:46 PM »
Welcome to the forum!

Offline Dewi Sant

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Re: Question about Copes
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2011, 11:44:52 PM »
Welcome to the forum!

Thank you!   ;D

So pleased to see a forum(ette) dedicated to the Western Rite.
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Offline orthophys7

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Re: Question about Copes
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2014, 10:16:27 AM »
Why is the syrian/indian priest wearing a different stole that resembles a latin one, and the other priests on his right and left are wearing the Orthodox Looking One....... ???


The picture above shows the priest celebrating his first divine liturgy after being ordained as priest.  In the tradition of the Syriac Orthodox Church, only on the day of ordination/priest's first celebrated liturgy, the ordaining bishop takes the orarion from the candidates left shoulder (as a full deacon) then places the orarion around the neck so that the ends hang in front, similar to a garland -- at this point it serves as a priest's stole -- think of it as a visible transition from the diaconate to the priesthood.  Then the priest vests with the belt, sleeves, and cope. 

In other words, when you see a Syriac Orthodox priest wearing an orarion as a priest's stole, a very good chance that the priest just got ordained!  After the priest serves his first divine liturgy, then the normal style stole is worn (the style which the priests flanking the celebrant are wearing).

Offline Regnare

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Re: Question about Copes
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2014, 03:35:41 PM »
Both kinds of cope are used by both Anglicans and Catholics; I've seen a lot more of the high-collared ones by both denominations and a few of the other ones by both.