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Author Topic: Compiled threads on the Immaculate Conception  (Read 45605 times) Average Rating: 0
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Frobie
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« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2004, 11:04:40 PM »

No, the Church never condemned icons. The oldest churches (the Roman catacombs) have them, as well as the Jewish temple, which had images from the OT. When iconoclasm broke out, the Orthodox left for Italy.
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« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2004, 11:04:51 PM »

Precisely. I think if you go back and do the research you will see this.

If one chooses to accept this teaching of the Church than that is fine. Just understand that is based upon tradition with a small "t".

Tom,

Very simply... Do you understand from where Orthodox Christians derive their knowledge of the faith?
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« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2004, 11:07:14 PM »

Precisely. I think if you go back and do the research you will see this.

If one chooses to accept this teaching of the Church than that is fine. Just understand that is based upon tradition with a small "t".

Are you seriously putting forth the notion that devotion to Mary and the Saints are incidentals of the faith, like head coverings or pious pre-communion practices?  You do realize Tom that Mary has her own Major Feast in the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2004, 11:08:23 PM »

Ben,

The things you describe, are they necessary for my salvation?

Are you seriously putting forth the notion that devotion to Mary and the Saints are incidentals of the faith, like head coverings or pious pre-communion practices?  You do realize Tom that Mary has her own Major Feast in the Orthodox Church?

The things you describe, are they necessary for my salvation?

Besides. I thought I was pretty clear in stating that Mary IS TO BE revered.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2004, 11:11:45 PM by Tom+ú » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2004, 11:10:40 PM »

Tom,

Very simply... Do you understand from where Orthodox Christians derive their knowledge of the faith?

Yes.
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« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2004, 11:11:38 PM »

Ben,

The things you describe, are they necessary for my salvation?The things you describe, are they necessary for my salvation?


Yes, they are necessary.

Without the Theotokos, we wouldn't have Christ, and without Christ, well, you can answer that.

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« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2004, 11:13:27 PM »

Yes, they are necessary.

Without the Theotokos, we wouldn't have Christ, and without Christ, well, you can answer that.


I didn't say that I don't believe in the Theotokos.
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« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2004, 11:13:53 PM »

I would like to thank Tom once again for hosting us last year at Summerfest. The Paraklesis at St. Sophia's to begin the Dormition Fast was beautiful.

Matt
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« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2004, 11:15:47 PM »

Amen! Without the Theotokos we wouldn't have Christ! Christ came to us through Mary for our salvation, therefore I go to Christ through mary for my Salvation.

One can get to Heaven without Mary, but she, refuge of sinners, is a great help and comfort to the faithful. She has saved many from both spiritual and phsyical destruction. She has brought more to Christ than any missionary!
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« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2004, 11:16:01 PM »

I didn't say that I don't believe in the Theotokos.

But, you're saying Tom's mind is wiser than the mind of the Church which instructs us to venerate Mary and the Saints in all of our services, including, of course, the Divine Liturgy. It is not an option, it is our Faith.
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« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2004, 11:17:50 PM »

Amen! Without the Theotokos we wouldn't have Christ! Christ came to us through Mary for our salvation, therefore I go to Christ through mary for my Salvation.

One can get to Heaven without Mary, but she, refuge of sinners, is a great help and comfort to the faithful. She has saved many from both spiritual and phsyical destruction. She has brought more to Christ than any missionary!

Actually, I don't think one can get to heaven without Mary.

She brought Christ to the world, therefore she is most essential in our salvation.

Call it ROman Catholic or whatever, but its the facts.



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« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2004, 11:18:31 PM »

Tom....why did you become Orthodox? and do you simply ignore the prayers to and through Mary in Orthodox Prayer books and different services such as the Akathist hym and the Small Paraklesis service?

Just wondering....it seems you'd be better in an Protestant Church, but thats from my limited knolwedge of who you are. I pray you find a good spirtual Father to help you with such matters!
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« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2004, 11:19:23 PM »

But, you're saying Tom's mind is wiser than the mind of the Church which instructs us to venerate Mary and the Saints in all of our services, including, of course, the Divine Liturgy. It is not an option, it is our Faith.

Which I do. And which I have stated numerous times.

But if I do not cross myself when teh Theotokos' name is mentioned like the other more pious Orthodox, is that a demerit? Will that be accused of me by the demons in the air?
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« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2004, 11:19:46 PM »

Actually, I don't think one can get to heaven without Mary.

She brought Christ to the world, therefore she is most essential in our salvation.

Call it ROman Catholic or whatever, but its the facts.





I meant one can get to heaven without praying to Mary.
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« Reply #59 on: April 20, 2004, 11:21:54 PM »

I agree with you Ben.

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« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2004, 11:24:32 PM »

Tom....why did you become Orthodox?

I was first exposed to Orthodoxy through my wife, but I became Orthodox because I believe it is the closest thing to the Truth. But being that it is controlled by sinful humans, it is not perfect in theis World. It cannot be and still be a part of the fallen world.


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« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2004, 11:29:55 PM »

Look I'm not saying we should all worship Mary, ignore Christ, and spend all out timing praying to her. I am just saying that I believe that Marian devotion is a strong part of the true Christian faith, and can't be pushed aside as the innovations of crazy men. If it weren't for Mary we wouldn't have Christ, and my God to think of where the Church, the world, me, you would be without her prayers!

The Marian tradition in both East and West is rich and full of great love and devotion....it can't be simply ignored as the inventions of those with no life, and regarded as nothing important to one's salvation!

One can't seperate Chritainity and Mary, it doesn't work.
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« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2004, 11:33:05 PM »

Tom, you have the authority to dismiss the Orthodox Church off as the closest thing to truth, dismiss the writtings of the Fathers and numerous Saints, and to refuse to humble yourself to God, instead of your own opinion?

Wow it sounds like me! At least I am not the only infallible one around here!
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« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2004, 11:34:34 PM »

I guess St. Luke was a crazy sinful fallen man with pent up sexual urges when he created icons which depict Christ and Mary.
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« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2004, 11:46:44 PM »

I guess St. Luke was a crazy sinful fallen man with pent up sexual urges when he created icons which depict Christ and Mary.

Of course....didn't you know? But hey it seems as if anything goes in Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2004, 11:47:54 PM »

.. dismiss the writtings of the Fathers and numerous Saints, and to refuse to humble yourself to God, instead of your own opinion?

That's a big leap there.

Remember, my response is directed towards my problems with the development of the teaching of the Immaculate Conception and the Cult of Mary. That is what I am addressing here.

Now, I guess you could use the argument that it is either all or nothing, but I reject that as there is no Orthodox requirement to believe this about Mary.

I guess St. Luke was a crazy sinful fallen man with pent up sexual urges when he created icons which depict Christ and Mary.

Why? Do you deny that they existed?

Concerning St. Luke. He certainly was a sinful man with pent-up sexual urges. Do you deny that St. Luke was human?
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« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2004, 11:52:07 PM »

Many Church fathers have written wonderful prayers, hyms, and writtings on the Blessed Mother, in addition to many modern Orthodox saints.

What you see as a problem, or un-orthodox, or un-true Christianity about the "Cult of Mary", is so much apart of Orthodoxy.

I am not saying in Orthodoxy that you must believe in such things, but seems that since it has been an important part of Orthodoxy for so long, there shouldn't be a need for one.

Perhaps Catholicism is for me....I like them "all or nothing" dogmas.
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« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2004, 12:00:58 AM »



Concerning St. Luke. He certainly was a sinful man with pent-up sexual urges. Do you deny that St. Luke was human?


I think part of your problem lies in your presentation. Would you speak of a departed loved one in this way, someone you cared for more than anything in the world? Would you say,"yeah, mom was great, but like everyone else she had some serious pent up sexual urges!"

It is not a reverential tone. And besides, we do not dwell on the past sins or shortcomings of the saints, but on what they have attained.
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« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2004, 12:08:05 AM »

I think part of your problem lies in your presentation. Would you speak of a departed loved one in this way, someone you cared for more than anything in the world? Would you say,"yeah, mom was great, but like everyone else she had some serious pent up sexual urges!"

It is not a reverential tone. And besides, we do no dwell on the past sins or shortcomings of the saints, but on what they have attained.

I totally agree....100%....I'm starting to really like you Bogoliubtsy.... Smiley
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« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2004, 12:17:44 AM »

And besides, we do no dwell on the past sins or shortcomings of the saints, but on what they have attained.

Part of MY problem. You seem to be the one who is having the problem with my opinions. And besides -- concerning St. Luke's issues --> YOU brought it up.

And you young whipper-snappers need to learn to respect your elders!  Grin
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« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2004, 12:27:57 AM »

Who cares about anyone's--let alone a saint's--issues? They're human? So is Christ. Try theosis. It works.

Matt
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« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2004, 02:32:49 AM »

Christos Anesti!  Christ is Risen!

Dear all,

I ask that you all try to be a little more understanding of TomΣ's attitudes as he has come to Orthodoxy by a rather different route to many of us (actually, I have a LOT in common with Tom). Tom has been received into the church but is still to a large extent marinating in the faith. He may have a harder time accepting some things than others have, but ultimately I believe his faith will be much stronger for it when he is able to accept them.

We all stand to benefit, as some of the difficulties Tom has are those which the majority of Protestants would be likely to have with Orthodoxy, and helping Tom to understand them will in turn help us to better explain these things to Protestants. So I consider Tom a real blessing to our little community (his attitude regarding monks and their repressed sexual urges aside Wink )

I also believe he would benefit most from experiencing the effect of our prayers for him and the intercessions of the Theotokos Smiley

John.
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« Reply #72 on: April 21, 2004, 09:27:10 AM »

Tom, I must ask how you get through the Service of the Small Paraklesis or the Akathist hym, considering your opinions regarding the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Easy.  It's probably all in Greek!  Tongue Wink

On a more serious note,

Quote
But being that it is controlled by sinful humans, it is not perfect in theis World. It cannot be and still be a part of the fallen world.

I think the real issue here is not Marian devotion.  It is the nature of the Church: what is it?  Is the Church both divine and human?  To what degree?  Does God protect the Church from being soiled by the more "human" aspects (sinful, sexually pent up men with no lives, etc.)?  How?  In what way?  

These and similar questions, I think, need to be discussed before dealing with Mary, because there are two different opinions in this thread: 1) Marian devotion is officially sanctioned by the Church in such a way as to be practically unavoidable, was practiced by countless saints, etc., and so must be good and perhaps necessary (which seems to be the majority opinion), and 2) it's a small "t" tradition of men, and is not necessary.  If we can come to some sort of understanding about the Orthodox view of the Church and the implications of that view, then it might help to make the case for Marian devotion more solid (not that I think it is shaky, I count myself among those holding the majority opinion on this).
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« Reply #73 on: April 21, 2004, 05:40:51 PM »

Dear SR:

I think your argument misses partly the pointed question of the Captain as you propounded only on the "what is not" in Orthodox theology.

Equally, I am interested in "what was" the Orthodox understanding of the Immaculate Conception in the periods cited by Bobby and "what it is" today.

As it stands, it seems the belief on the purity of the Blessed Virgin Mary from the moment of her conception was, at least, held by East and West "universally."

Somehow, I think this discussion has somehow completely overlooked Seraphim's very important point; i.e. that the notion of "immaculate conception" as the RCs understand it presumes an Augustinian notion of the fall and of inherited sin, a notion which is not, and has historically not been, current among the Orthodox.

When we hear the phrases "purity of the Theotokos," or sing of her as "most pure," and "without defilement" (perhaps Aristokles could provide the Greek original here  Smiley), we do not think of her as being freed from a taint passed on in any kind of "genetic way" from Adam and Eve and through all their descendants.

Rather, we think of her as the apex of the Old Testament tradition of Patriarchs and Matriarchs who had faith and were God's chosen for the continuation and eventual spread of his salvific actions.

It seems to me that, when the RCs hear those terms, they think of something entirely different.
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« Reply #74 on: April 21, 2004, 05:54:08 PM »

I hasten to add, that what I said we "think of" does not, of course, circumscribe the Orthodox understanding of, and relationship with, the Theotokos.  One key to that understanding is that we shy away from using many other terms for her (to be sure, we address her inspecific Liturgical contexts and prayers as "pure Virgin, and "Lady full of Grace", but "Theotokos is definitely the predominate term), as this term holds her inseparably united with her Son, and specifically as the birthgiver of God; just as we do not like representations of her which depict her separately from Christ.

For the Orthodox, Mary is at the same time inseparable from the Church:  Christ is her Lord, but she bore him, just as Christ is the Church's Lord, but the Church bears him forth.  The more I come to love and sense the mystery of the Church, the more I love and adore Mary.

And, the more I find myself repelled from images and language which depict her as above and somehow separate from the human condition:  some sort of independent celestial figure, sappy goddess-type, earth-mother, etc.
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« Reply #75 on: April 22, 2004, 12:31:45 AM »

Quote
On a more serious note, I think the real issue here is not Marian devotion.  It is the nature of the Church: what is it?  Is the Church both divine and human?  To what degree?  Does God protect the Church from being soiled by the more "human" aspects (sinful, sexually pent up men with no lives, etc.)?  How?  In what way?  


I think that is a very good point.

Tom seems to believe the the Orthodox Church is the closest thing to the truth, but not the perfect truth, for it is run by sinful humans. This is where the core of the problem, and this debate, is. For if there is no Church that is truly infallible and the perfect truth, then it is very easy to slide into the Protestant mind set and start dismissing Church councils, writtings of the Fathers, Church Traditions and traditions, beacuse you don't believe the Church to be the perfect truth, established by Christ, for the salvation of souls. You may think it is close to the truth, but if it isn't the Truth, then it becomes easier and easier to make your self into a little Pope, declaring what is truth, and what are superficial inventions by crazy monks with oppressed sexual urges, that had nothing better to do than to add to the Apostolic faith.

As I have struggled between Orthodoxy and Catholicism for some time now, very often I find myself asking what is the Church? In what way is there really One Church? In what way is it the Truth? Is there truly One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that teaches true and pure Christianity? Most devout Orthodox and Catholic Christians would say yes. But I think everyone, including myself, really needs to explore these questions, and the role of the Church and what exactly is the nature of the Church.

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« Reply #76 on: April 22, 2004, 05:39:14 AM »

Christos Anesti!  Christ is Risen!

A chunk of pertinent text from The Orthodox Church - by Bishop Kalistos Ware

Quote
We honour the Mother on account of the Son: Mariology is simply an extension of Christology. The Fathers of the Council of Ephesus insisted on calling Mary Theotokos, not because they desired to glorify her as an end in herself, apart from her Son, but because only by honouring Mary could they safeguard a right doctrine of Christ’s person. Anyone who thinks out the implications of that great phrase, The Word was made flesh, cannot but feel a certain awe for her who was chosen as the instrument of so surpassing a mystery. When men refuse to honour Mary, only too often it is because they do not really believe in the Incarnation.

But Orthodox honour Mary, not only because she is Theotokos, but because she is Panagia, All-Holy. Among all God’s Creatures, she is the supreme example of synergy or cooperation between the purpose of the deity and the free will of man. God, who always respects human liberty, did not wish to become incarnate without the free consent of His Mother. He Waited for her voluntary response: “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to your word” (Luke 1:38). Mary could have refused; she was not merely passive, but an active participant in the mystery. As Nicholas Cabasilas said: ‘The Incarnation was not only the work of the Father, of His Power and His Spirit ... but it was also the work of the will and faith of the Virgin ... Just as God became incarnate voluntarily, so He wished that His Mother should bear Him freely and with her full consent’ (On the Annunciation, 4-5 (Patrologia Orientalis, vol, 19, Paris, 1926, p. 488)).

If Christ is the New Adam, Mary is the New Eve, whose went submission to the will of God counterbalanced Eve’s disobedience in Paradise. ‘So the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed through the obedience of Mary; for what Eve, a Virgin, bound by her unbelief, that Mary, a virgin, unloosed by her faith’ (Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, 3, 22, 4). ‘Death by Eve, life by Mary’
(Jerome, Letter 22, 21).

The Orthodox Church calls Mary ‘All-Holy;’ it calls her ‘immaculate’ or ‘spotless’ (in Greek, achrantos); and all Orthodox are agreed in believing that Our Lady was free from actual sin. But was she also free from original sin? In other words, does Orthodoxy agree with the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, proclaimed as a dogma by Pope Pius the Ninth in 1854, according to which Mary, from the moment she was conceived by her mother Saint Anne, was by God’s special decree delivered from ‘all stain of original sin?’ The Orthodox Church has never in fact made any formal and definitive pronouncement on the matter. In the past individual Orthodox have made statements which, if not definitely affirming the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, at any rate approach close to it; but since 1854 the great majority of Orthodox have rejected the doctrine, for several reasons. They feel it to be unnecessary; they feel that, at any rate as defined by the Roman Catholic Church, it implies a false understanding of original sin; they suspect the doctrine because it seems to separate Mary from the rest of the descendants of Adam, putting her in a completely different class from all the other righteous men and women of the Old Testament. From the Orthodox point of view, however, the whole question belongs to the realm of theological opinion; and if an individual Orthodox today felt impelled to believe in the Immaculate Conception, he could not be termed a heretic for so doing.

But Orthodoxy, while for the most part denying the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, firmly believes in her Bodily Assumption (Immediately after the Pope proclaimed the Assumption as a dogma in 1950, a few Orthodox (by way of reaction against the Roman Catholic Church) began to express doubts about the Bodily Assumption and even explicitly to deny it; but they are certainly not representative of the Orthodox Church as a whole). Like the rest of mankind, Our Lady underwent physical death, but in her case the Resurrection of the Body has been anticipated: after death her body was taken up or ‘assumed’ into heaven and her tomb was found to be empty. She has passed beyond death and judgement, and lives already in the Age to Come. Yet she is not thereby utterly separated from the rest of humanity, for that same bodily glory which Mary enjoys now, all of us hope one day to share.

John.
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« Reply #77 on: April 22, 2004, 10:33:14 PM »


I think that is a very good point.

Tom seems to believe the the Orthodox Church is the closest thing to the truth, but not the perfect truth, for it is run by sinful humans. This is where the core of the problem, and this debate, is. For if there is no Church that is truly infallible and the perfect truth, then it is very easy to slide into the Protestant mind set and start dismissing Church councils, writtings of the Fathers, Church Traditions and traditions, beacuse you don't believe the Church to be the perfect truth, established by Christ, for the salvation of souls. You may think it is close to the truth, but if it isn't the Truth, then it becomes easier and easier to make your self into a little Pope, declaring what is truth, and what are superficial inventions by crazy monks with oppressed sexual urges, that had nothing better to do than to add to the Apostolic faith.

This is true to an extent. Please understand that I am not rejecting the place Mary has in the Orthodox Church. I adhere to the teaching of the Church and those defined as "T"raditions (with a capital "T").
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« Reply #78 on: April 23, 2004, 07:48:14 PM »

Dear Tom,

I guess what it boils down to is what you think are "t"raditions.  Crossing oneself during the litanies when the Virgin is commemorated is, IMO, a "t"radition, and if you don't do it, you're not going to hell (I myself rarely do it when I attend EO services).  However, there are other things which you probably regard as "t"raditions which I personally would not accept at such a low standard, and I think I have the weight of Orthodox tradition behind me on at least some of those.  I would be interested in seeing you list a few Orthodox "t"raditions regarding Mary for us, so we can come to an understanding of what you consider a "t"radition.
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« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2004, 11:07:39 PM »

I would be interested in seeing you list a few Orthodox "t"raditions regarding Mary for us, so we can come to an understanding of what you consider a "t"radition.  

Okay. Except I think it would be easier for me to list the one I do believe:

1) She freely chose to bear the Christ
2) She remained a Virgin
3) At the time of her death, her soul was met by the Lord and taken directly into heaven.

All others are "t"raditions and therefore, were created by men.

Especially this bit from "The Law of God" (Chapter 58: The Dormition of the Mother of God):

"..the Mother of God wanted to bid farewell to them (the Apostles), and so the Lord, in a miraculous manner gathered all the apostles to Her, except Thomas, transporting them by his omnipotent power........" and further on..... " Three days after the burial of the Mother of God, the absent Apostle Thomas arrived, he was greatly saddened that he had not been able to say farewell to the Mother of God..... The Apostles felt so sorry for him that they decided to roll away the stone from the tomb, to allow him to venerate her body. But when they opened the tomb, her most holy body was not there, but only a piece of burial shroud....The amazed Apostles returned to the house and prayed to God to reveal to them what had become of the body of the Motehr of God. In the evening during prayer, they heard angelic singing and looking up the Aposteles saw the Mother of God. The Mother of God said to them "Rejoice! I am with you always, and will pray for you before God".
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« Reply #80 on: April 24, 2004, 11:20:12 PM »

Okay. Except I think it would be easier for me to list the one I do believe:

1) She freely chose to bear the Christ
2) She remained a Virgin
3) At the time of her death, her soul was met by the Lord and taken directly into heaven.

All others are "t"raditions and therefore, were created by men.

Especially this bit from "The Law of God" (Chapter 58: The Dormition of the Mother of God):

"..the Mother of God wanted to bid farewell to them (the Apostles), and so the Lord, in a miraculous manner gathered all the apostles to Her, except Thomas, transporting them by his omnipotent power........" and further on..... " Three days after the burial of the Mother of God, the absent Apostle Thomas arrived, he was greatly saddened that he had not been able to say farewell to the Mother of God..... The Apostles felt so sorry for him that they decided to roll away the stone from the tomb, to allow him to venerate her body. But when they opened the tomb, her most holy body was not there, but only a piece of burial shroud....The amazed Apostles returned to the house and prayed to God to reveal to them what had become of the body of the Motehr of God. In the evening during prayer, they heard angelic singing and looking up the Aposteles saw the Mother of God. The Mother of God said to them "Rejoice! I am with you always, and will pray for you before God".

Thank you Tom, for clearing up Protopriest Seraphim Slobodskoy's mistakes.

Seriously now... why do you accept the three things you listed, but not what the Protopriest writes, and the Church confirms?
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« Reply #81 on: April 24, 2004, 11:24:20 PM »


3) At the time of her death, her soul was met by the Lord and taken directly into

 :oOnly her soul?!

Oy, there goes the Assumption. You are the second Orthodox Christian I have met who rejects the bodily Assumption of Blessed Virgin Mary. :'(
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« Reply #82 on: April 24, 2004, 11:28:27 PM »

:oOnly her soul?!

Oy, there goes the Assumption. You are the second Orthodox Christian I have met who rejects the bodily Assumption of Blessed Virgin Mary. :'(

Why didn't I notice that he said "soul"? My post would have turned out differently.  Smiley
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« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2004, 11:30:37 PM »

:oOnly her soul?!

Oy, there goes the Assumption. You are the second Orthodox Christian I have met who rejects the bodily Assumption of Blessed Virgin Mary. :'(

If it happened, then don't you think that it would have been mentioned by someone? I mean, c'mon!
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« Reply #84 on: April 24, 2004, 11:34:46 PM »

Thank you Tom, for clearing up Protopriest Seraphim Slobodskoy's mistakes.

Seriously now... why do you accept the three things you listed, but not what the Protopriest writes, and the Church confirms?


1) She freely chose to bear the Christ - Well, you really CAN'T be a Christian and not believe this.

2) She remained a Virgin - Because once she gave birth to the Christ, her whole life must have been focused totally on Him. And I do not believe that she had any other children or Jesus would have told John to take Mary home to his brother and sister, not give her to John to protect.

3) At the time of her death, her soul was met by the Lord and taken directly into heaven. - Because I believe that this would have been her reward. She obviously was the most rightous and sinless human to live.
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« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2004, 11:36:30 PM »

If it happened, then don't you think that it would have been mentioned by someone? I mean, c'mon!


Tom, it IS mentioned:  BY THE CHURCH!
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« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2004, 11:38:44 PM »

Tom, it IS mentioned:  BY THE CHURCH!

Don't be silly. That is a throwaway response which does not at all address my point.
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« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2004, 11:38:45 PM »

[Oy, there goes the Assumption. You are the second Orthodox Christian I have met who rejects the bodily Assumption of Blessed Virgin Mary. ]

If you look at any Icon of the 'Dormition'  you will see Christ  along with the Apostoles standing near the body of the Theotokos holding an infant.  The infant represents her soul which was to be taken to heaven by her son.

Orthodox tradition tells us that three days later Thomas came and wanted to venerate the body of the Theotokos.  When he was taken to her tomb her body was gone and in a flower lay in its place.  That's why we Orthodox bless flowers during the feast.  We see the 'dormition' and the 'assumption' as two separate events.

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« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2004, 11:42:25 PM »

[Oy, there goes the Assumption. You are the second Orthodox Christian I have met who rejects the bodily Assumption of Blessed Virgin Mary. ]

If you look at any Icon of the 'Dormition'  you will see Christ  along with the Apostoles standing near the body of the Theotokos holding an infant.  The infant represents her soul which was to be taken to heaven by her son.

Orthodox tradition tells us that three days later Thomas came and wanted to venerate the body of the Theotokos.  When he was taken to her tomb her body was gone and in a flower lay in its place.  That's why we Orthodox bless flowers during the feast.  We see the 'dormition' and the 'assumption' as two separate events.

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That's right. I accept the 'Dormition' with no problem. But the Assumption is a "t"radition of the Church. And it is just FINE to have these traditions if it helps others feel closer to Christ through Mary. I have no problem with that. Just don't tell me that I HAVE to believe all of them.

Because my Priest tells me that I do NOT.

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« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2004, 11:42:52 PM »

Don't be silly. That is throwaway response which does not at all address my point.

Well, if you consider "because the Church believes it" a throwaway response..... well, I wouldn't be surprised at this point.  What do you think of the Presentation of the Theotokos into the Temple, Tom? That's not included in scripture and wasn't celebrated for quite some time after Christ. Are you down to 10 major feasts?
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