Author Topic: An Ecumenical Council  (Read 2639 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ben

  • Unabashedly Pro-Life
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,260
An Ecumenical Council
« on: April 19, 2004, 07:01:28 PM »
Christ is Risen!

Hey everyone! Some of you may remember me. I joined a while back, I think in November.

Well I'm back, and I have a question, regarding the possibility of the Orthodox Church ever having an Ecumenical Council. I have asked this question of different Orthodox priests and I have gotten a bunch of different answers, but all fit into one of the three listed below:

1) No, the Orthodox Church cannot, because the Ecumenical Council era has passed.

2) No, the Orthodox Church cannot, because it would be too difficult in this modern world.

3) Yes, the Orthodox Church can, because it is the true Church, and it is a living one.

I don't mean to be rude, but from a Catholic's point of view, it seems that Orthodoxy has been dead in the water for some 1000 years. And it seems logical that Orthodoxy hasn't and won't call another Ecumenical Council, because Orthodoxy has no authority to do so, like a Pope, or an Emperor.

It seems as if there is no offical opinion within Orthodoxy about the chance of the Orthodox having an 8th Ecumenical Council. I am wondering your opinions, and if there is any book on this topic.

Thank you!!

And plase pray for me, as I am still searching for truth, and still torn between east and west!
« Last Edit: April 19, 2004, 07:07:50 PM by Ben »
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline arimethea

  • Getting too old for this
  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,968
  • Does anyone really care what you think?
Re:An Ecumenical Council
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2004, 11:09:20 PM »
Quote
3) Yes, the Orthodox Church can, because it is the true Church, and it is a living one.

I think this is the best responce of the three you offered. Yes it would be difficult to hold, but not because of the modern world (the modern world would make it easier) but because of percieved obstacles. Remeber all things are possble through Christ.

I truely believe we will see an ecumencal gathering of all the Orthodox bishops in the world in my lifetime.

Only time will tell if this gathering of bishops will be deemed to be an Ecumenical Council.
Joseph

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re:An Ecumenical Council
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2004, 12:55:27 AM »


... and I have a question, regarding the possibility of the Orthodox Church ever having an Ecumenical Council. I have asked this question of different Orthodox priests and I have gotten a bunch of different answers, but all fit into one of the three listed below:

Perhaps your question should be directed to bishops rather than parish priests?

Quote
I don't mean to be rude, but from a Catholic's point of view, it seems that Orthodoxy has been dead in the water for some 1000 years. And it seems logical that Orthodoxy hasn't and won't call another Ecumenical Council, because Orthodoxy has no authority to do so, like a Pope, or an Emperor.
well, Truth is timeless...
and it seems to the Orthodox that Roman Catholicism has been meandering around in the wilderness for 1000 years getting further lost with each of their councils ;). The Patriarch of Constantinople has stated a council is being planned, although he has missed his target date of 2001. Most issues to be handled will probably be jurisdictional ones (USA, Australia) and consideration for formalizing the Council of 879 which we already hold as the 8th Ecumenical being accepted by all churches as such and the three councils beginning in 1341 which are held to be the 9th. These last two may be combined and affirmed as one.
See: http://www.mb-soft.com/believe/txw/orthcoun.htm

A further reason for the recent delay might be the attempt at re-union of the Eastern and Oriental Churches. It would be nice to have that on the table as well (but I speculate here).
I am almost certain the calendar question will be revisited. It will be a LONG synod.

Quote
It seems as if there is no offical opinion within Orthodoxy about the chance of the Orthodox having an 8th Ecumenical Council. I am wondering your opinions, and if there is any book on this topic.

See above. I will PM you with further reading. Any questions, please PM me.

Quote

Thank you!!

You are welcome!

Quote

And plase pray for me, as I am still searching for truth, and still torn between east and west!


I am confident He will lead you where He wishes you to be. It sounds as if you already know.

Demetri
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Ben

  • Unabashedly Pro-Life
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,260
Re:An Ecumenical Council
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2004, 12:59:56 AM »
Thank you so very much!!

Please PM me....
« Last Edit: April 21, 2004, 01:04:17 AM by Ben »
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Ben

  • Unabashedly Pro-Life
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,260
Re:An Ecumenical Council
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2004, 01:05:56 AM »
and you're right...I think I do already know....
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re:An Ecumenical Council
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2004, 01:08:09 AM »
Ben,
Have you read any of the texts at:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/texts/index.html

especially the Dvornik and Bulgakov ones?

Demetri
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Justin Kissel

  • Formerly a *, now a ☆
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,012
  • Faith: Agnosticish
Re:An Ecumenical Council
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2004, 01:06:16 PM »
I don't know what others said, so forgive me if this is redundant. There were councils which some call Ecumenical in the times of St. Photius and St. Mark of Ephesus. Also, there are plans afoot to have another ecumenical council, though  this planned council would end in disaster (St. Justin Popovich wrote a good letter on this.) Liberal Orthodox (if you believe in such a thing) like to talk about the Ecumenical Councils and Church Fathers as though they were part of some past age. They aren't :)

Offline Bogoliubtsy

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,268
Re:An Ecumenical Council
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2004, 01:36:37 PM »
Since the topic turned to "Fundamental Dogmatic Differences Between Catholicism And Orthodoxy",  I decided to split the thread and move some posts to the Orthodox-Catholic forum.


Peter


"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Offline Justin Kissel

  • Formerly a *, now a ☆
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,012
  • Faith: Agnosticish
Re:An Ecumenical Council
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2004, 07:26:44 PM »
Oops, dumb me, I said St. Mark of Ephesus when I should have said St. Gregory Palamas. That should teach me to rush through posting! :)  Btw, fwiw, both complicate a possible unity between the east and west, especially the one in the time of St. Gregory Palamas--that is to say, if the Roman Church continues to affirm the concept of "created grace".

Offline Linus7

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,780
Re:An Ecumenical Council
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2004, 08:26:26 AM »
I don't know what others said, so forgive me if this is redundant. There were councils which some call Ecumenical in the times of St. Photius and St. Mark of Ephesus. Also, there are plans afoot to have another ecumenical council, though  this planned council would end in disaster (St. Justin Popovich wrote a good letter on this.) Liberal Orthodox (if you believe in such a thing) like to talk about the Ecumenical Councils and Church Fathers as though they were part of some past age. They aren't :)

Of course, a true ecumenical council would be guided by the Holy Spirit and could not result in doctrinal or moral disaster.

That said, however, I tend to agree with you.

We could end up with the Orthodox version of Vatican II and with a "reunification" solution very similar to that attempted through the Encyclion of the Emperor Basilicus or the Henoticon of the Emperor Zeno and the Patriarch Acacius; in other words, a repudiation of Chalcedon and the holy Fathers of the Church.
The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re:An Ecumenical Council
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2004, 10:14:09 AM »
Of course, a true ecumenical council would be guided by the Holy Spirit and could not result in doctrinal or moral disaster.

That said, however, I tend to agree with you.

We could end up with the Orthodox version of Vatican II and with a "reunification" solution very similar to that attempted through the Encyclion of the Emperor Basilicus or the Henoticon of the Emperor Zeno and the Patriarch Acacius; in other words, a repudiation of Chalcedon and the holy Fathers of the Church.

Aw, Linus7, my friend,you seem to assume that even an eventuality (or potentiality) that a council ecumenically called, ecumenically (universally) attended, and which reaches an ecumenical (unversal) agreement among the bishops would automatically assume ecumenical acceptance by the whole Church and over time become Oecumenical by that acceptance.
Conjecture or pre-judging a possible outcome either way is a dangerous, to me, thing to do. Worry such as this seems a present from the Evil one to cloud or muddy our faith.
I've more faith than that, and so do you.

Demetri, a great sinner
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Linus7

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,780
Re:An Ecumenical Council
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2004, 10:19:33 AM »
Aw, Linus7, my friend,you seem to assume that even an eventuality (or potentiality) that a council ecumenically called, ecumenically (universally) attended, and which reaches an ecumenical (unversal) agreement among the bishops would automatically assume ecumenical acceptance by the whole Church and over time become Oecumenical by that acceptance.
Conjecture or pre-judging a possible outcome either way is a dangerous, to me, thing to do. Worry such as this seems a present from the Evil one to cloud or muddy our faith.
I've more faith than that, and so do you.

Demetri, a great sinner

Good point about the (lengthy) process, brother!

I was just seconding what Paradosis had said and at the same time revealing my own pessimism, I guess.

I am somewhat discouraged by the tendency of some of our hierarchs toward sappy ecumenism and acceptance of the Zeitgeist, which is long on phoney tolerance and short on doctrinal substance and loyalty to the Deposit of Faith.
The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re:An Ecumenical Council
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2004, 10:34:08 AM »
I am somewhat discouraged by the tendency of some of our hierarchs toward sappy ecumenism and acceptance of the Zeitgeist, which is long on phoney tolerance and short on doctrinal substance and loyalty to the Deposit of Faith.

I understand. The Church hierachy will always have bishops which push the limits. That is inevitable and human. Take comfort in that no bishop (or group of bishops for that matter) is infallible or beyond correction. I do.

Demetri
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides