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Author Topic: Oldest Humans Didn't Live in Africa?  (Read 2077 times) Average Rating: 0
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rakovsky
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« on: December 24, 2010, 09:30:40 PM »


"Oldest Humans Didn't Live in Africa, But in Israel"

http://www.mignews.com/news/technology/world/241210_150923_30356.html

http://www.rosbalt.ru/2010/12/24/804372.html

The causes a dilemma, because it means that
(A) Humans didn't evolve from primitive apes and become Homo Sapiens in Africa, and
(B) Humans didn't come from the area between the Euphrates and the Tigris as I think Genesis suggests.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 09:37:03 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2010, 09:47:33 PM »


"Oldest Humans Didn't Live in Africa, But in Israel"

http://www.mignews.com/news/technology/world/241210_150923_30356.html

http://www.rosbalt.ru/2010/12/24/804372.html

The causes a dilemma, because it means that
(A) Humans didn't evolve from primitive apes and become Homo Sapiens in Africa, and
(B) Humans didn't come from the area between the Euphrates and the Tigris as I think Genesis suggests.

What do you think?


No, all it proves is that Scientist need to find a better way of doing science. The idea of "oldest humans" shouldn't even be in the vocabulary of scientists. Instead, what they need to say is "at this given moment in time, the oldest bones according to our methods of testing is such and such."


If they happen to find older bones in China five years from now, then what is stated in your link won't stand either, and so, there needs to be a better way of doing science.

It's because of stuff like this that I stopped listening to what they had to say long long ago. It's not trust worthy because it keeps changing.

The secularists never call scientific out dated "facts" myths, but they are quick to call all religious beliefs "myths". This is why I use the word "myth" for out dated scientific ideas. Some people 50 years ago could of became either Atheists or Agnostics because of these myths. And if they are dead now, then they died believing and trusting in a scientific myth. I would rather die a religious man, and believing all the things I should believe as a Christian Religious person.

Merry Christmas!
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« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2010, 10:33:44 PM »


"Oldest Humans Didn't Live in Africa, But in Israel"

http://www.mignews.com/news/technology/world/241210_150923_30356.html

http://www.rosbalt.ru/2010/12/24/804372.html

The causes a dilemma, because it means that
(A) Humans didn't evolve from primitive apes and become Homo Sapiens in Africa, and
(B) Humans didn't come from the area between the Euphrates and the Tigris as I think Genesis suggests.

What do you think?

There were Cro-magnons ( Early Man) outside of Africa. It's a dead line. Every person living outside of Africa  today is descended from a single group of humans who left Africa and crossed into the Middle East some 70 million years ago. The only exceptions are a few pockets of people living in Africa like the Bushmen.

The Chinese are very fond of a pet theory that they are descended from this very early group of Cro-magnons. It makes them feel special.
However, recent DNA testing has proven that the Chinese are also descended from this exact same group that left Africa. The differences in Chinese facial structure is attributed solely to sexual preference. Some long ago ancestor thought that type of appearance was cute..and off we go.
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« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2010, 10:54:43 PM »

Marc,

It's sounds like you are sticking with the traditional "out of africa" theory.
Middle Easterners are homo sapiens and came from Africa. Bushmen stayed in Africa and they are homo sapiens too. Hence, Homo Sapiens came from Africa.

Merry Christmas. (New Calendar). All the Best.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 10:56:17 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2010, 11:02:04 PM »

Marc,

It's sounds like you are sticking with the traditional "out of africa" theory.
Middle Easterners are homo sapiens and came from Africa. Bushmen stayed in Africa and they are homo sapiens too. Hence, Homo Sapiens came from Africa.

Merry Christmas. (New Calendar). All the Best.

Huh?

Every Human alive today is descended from the same small group of humans that made the crossing into the Middle East except for a few exceptions like the Bushmen.
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« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2010, 11:20:43 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


"Oldest Humans Didn't Live in Africa, But in Israel"

http://www.mignews.com/news/technology/world/241210_150923_30356.html

http://www.rosbalt.ru/2010/12/24/804372.html

The causes a dilemma, because it means that
(A) Humans didn't evolve from primitive apes and become Homo Sapiens in Africa, and
(B) Humans didn't come from the area between the Euphrates and the Tigris as I think Genesis suggests.

What do you think?

That is not entirely accurate.  The remains found in Israel are not the oldest evidence of homo sapiens, it is the oldest evidence of homo sapiens out side of Africa.  Indeed the first humans leaving Africa stayed in Israel.  Remember the migration of humans out of Africa was slow, systematic, over generations, just as any other animal species migrates outside into new areas.  It takes time and generations and it is  a a process, which started in East Africa and gradually into the Middle East and Central Asia..

The July 2010 National Geographic had delightful breakdown of all the recentest evidence of these theories, including the oldest fossils of pre-humans and full humans.  All of this was in fact in Ethiopia no less!

All evidence of the past 30 years, including DNA, agriculture, linguistics and other things highly suggests a specifically Ethiopian origin.  All of the oldest pre-human and homo sapien skeletons and fossils have been consistently found in Ethiopia, with a few more in Kenya and Uganda.  The close seconds are in Israel and China of all places!  DNA evidence suggests that all the human beings today evolved from two people (mitochondrial) in South/Central Africa and logic suggests they lived in a small band of family group and nothing of the DNA implies there were ONLY two people, just that all of our own DNA is from two specific people.  Sound familiar anyone?

Further linguistics suggest an origin in South/Central Africa but there is less physical evidence of this.  Compelling linguistics and other cultural evidence suggests Ethiopia as the most recent origin point in Africa, and fossilized and pre-Human and early human finds are strong evidence of an Ethiopian origin.  The DNA story is limited, but the other physical evidence is a bit more specific and abundant.

Stay Blessed,
Habitue Selassie
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« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2010, 11:26:36 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


"Oldest Humans Didn't Live in Africa, But in Israel"

http://www.mignews.com/news/technology/world/241210_150923_30356.html

http://www.rosbalt.ru/2010/12/24/804372.html

The causes a dilemma, because it means that
(A) Humans didn't evolve from primitive apes and become Homo Sapiens in Africa, and
(B) Humans didn't come from the area between the Euphrates and the Tigris as I think Genesis suggests.

What do you think?

That is not entirely accurate.  The remains found in Israel are not the oldest evidence of homo sapiens, it is the oldest evidence of homo sapiens out side of Africa.  Indeed the first humans leaving Africa stayed in Israel.  Remember the migration of humans out of Africa was slow, systematic, over generations, just as any other animal species migrates outside into new areas.  It takes time and generations and it is  a a process, which started in East Africa and gradually into the Middle East and Central Asia..

The July 2010 National Geographic had delightful breakdown of all the recentest evidence of these theories, including the oldest fossils of pre-humans and full humans.  All of this was in fact in Ethiopia no less!

All evidence of the past 30 years, including DNA, agriculture, linguistics and other things highly suggests a specifically Ethiopian origin.  All of the oldest pre-human and homo sapien skeletons and fossils have been consistently found in Ethiopia, with a few more in Kenya and Uganda.  The close seconds are in Israel and China of all places!  DNA evidence suggests that all the human beings today evolved from two people (mitochondrial) in South/Central Africa and logic suggests they lived in a small band of family group and nothing of the DNA implies there were ONLY two people, just that all of our own DNA is from two specific people.  Sound familiar anyone?

Further linguistics suggest an origin in South/Central Africa but there is less physical evidence of this.  Compelling linguistics and other cultural evidence suggests Ethiopia as the most recent origin point in Africa, and fossilized and pre-Human and early human finds are strong evidence of an Ethiopian origin.  The DNA story is limited, but the other physical evidence is a bit more specific and abundant.

Stay Blessed,
Habitue Selassie

They crossed into the Arabian Peninsula which at that time was very lush and green. It may be the memory of that place that we recall as the Garden of Eden.. It makes perfect sense that people eventually moved up to the area of Israel where early fossils have been found.
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2010, 11:31:27 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



They crossed into the Arabian Peninsula which at that time was very lush and green. It may be the memory of that place that we recall as the Garden of Eden.. It makes perfect sense that people eventually moved up to the area of Israel where early fossils have been found.

Yes exactly!! The early-humans who had left Ethiopia crossed from what is currently the straights of Aden which even today is only a few miles across and has very many shallow points.  It is legend that Napolean crossed at such a shallow, close point and some even boldy insinuated later that Napolean had crossed the same location as the Exodus!  All this is conjecture, but in truth the early humans did cross in to Arabia.  Ethiopia and Yemen are fairly parallel in this ancient pre-history.  Remember again, there were more than likely other pre-humans widely populating all these places of the Near East and Asia and Europe, and we have plenty of physical evidence to attest to this, but our DNA evidence strongly suggests that all of the current Homo sapiens (ie, all the 7 billion of ourselves) are descended from just two people (well specifically one, a mother via mitochondrial DNA but it does take two to tango does it now?) who obviously lived in some kind of small band of family as other higher primates live around 250,000 years ago. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2010, 11:48:27 AM »

Further linguistics suggest an origin in South/Central Africa but there is less physical evidence of this.  Compelling linguistics and other cultural evidence suggests Ethiopia as the most recent origin point in Africa, and fossilized and pre-Human and early human finds are strong evidence of an Ethiopian origin.

It's important to make clear that the only migration linguistics debates is that of the Afro-Asiatic languages, which originated in northeast Africa 8,000 years ago or so, breaking up into the Semitic, Cushitic, Berber, etc. languages. No reputable linguist believes that there is any linguistic evidence remaining from as far back as when humans first left Africa many tens of thousands of years ago.
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« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2010, 12:31:32 PM »


"Oldest Humans Didn't Live in Africa, But in Israel"

http://www.mignews.com/news/technology/world/241210_150923_30356.html

http://www.rosbalt.ru/2010/12/24/804372.html

The causes a dilemma, because it means that
(A) Humans didn't evolve from primitive apes and become Homo Sapiens in Africa, and
(B) Humans didn't come from the area between the Euphrates and the Tigris as I think Genesis suggests.

What do you think?

There were Cro-magnons ( Early Man) outside of Africa. It's a dead line. Every person living outside of Africa  today is descended from a single group of humans who left Africa and crossed into the Middle East some 70 million years ago. The only exceptions are a few pockets of people living in Africa like the Bushmen.

The Chinese are very fond of a pet theory that they are descended from this very early group of Cro-magnons. It makes them feel special.
However, recent DNA testing has proven that the Chinese are also descended from this exact same group that left Africa. The differences in Chinese facial structure is attributed solely to sexual preference. Some long ago ancestor thought that type of appearance was cute..and off we go.

70 million?
The general consensus is we only evolved 200,000 years ago and either spread out of Africa or actually developed in several areas (multiregional hypothesis). Genetic tests have already proven that we interbred with Neanderthals (again and again and again, then the next summer some scientist that never found out again asserts that we didn't interbreed. I know I've been seeing the same annual "new" finding every year for the past ten years) and a newly discovered group called Denisovians that lived in East Asia. Quite a bit of their genetic legacy is preserved in modern day Melanesians.
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« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2010, 01:44:28 PM »

Well, at least now I know the oldest humans are not from Cleveland.
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« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2010, 02:43:24 PM »


"Oldest Humans Didn't Live in Africa, But in Israel"

http://www.mignews.com/news/technology/world/241210_150923_30356.html

http://www.rosbalt.ru/2010/12/24/804372.html

The causes a dilemma, because it means that
(A) Humans didn't evolve from primitive apes and become Homo Sapiens in Africa, and
(B) Humans didn't come from the area between the Euphrates and the Tigris as I think Genesis suggests.

What do you think?

There were Cro-magnons ( Early Man) outside of Africa. It's a dead line. Every person living outside of Africa  today is descended from a single group of humans who left Africa and crossed into the Middle East some 70 million years ago. The only exceptions are a few pockets of people living in Africa like the Bushmen.

The Chinese are very fond of a pet theory that they are descended from this very early group of Cro-magnons. It makes them feel special.
However, recent DNA testing has proven that the Chinese are also descended from this exact same group that left Africa. The differences in Chinese facial structure is attributed solely to sexual preference. Some long ago ancestor thought that type of appearance was cute..and off we go.

70 million?
The general consensus is we only evolved 200,000 years ago and either spread out of Africa or actually developed in several areas (multiregional hypothesis). Genetic tests have already proven that we interbred with Neanderthals (again and again and again, then the next summer some scientist that never found out again asserts that we didn't interbreed. I know I've been seeing the same annual "new" finding every year for the past ten years) and a newly discovered group called Denisovians that lived in East Asia. Quite a bit of their genetic legacy is preserved in modern day Melanesians.

Our direct ancestors left Africa and crossed into the middle east about 70,000 years ago (not 70 million of course, my typo). The final evolutionary version of Homo Sapien was complete by about 200,000 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations

Modern humans, Homo sapiens, evolved in Africa up to 200,000 years ago and reached the Near East around 70 millennia ago. From the Near East, these populations spread east to South Asia by 50 millennia ago, and on to Australia by 40 millennia ago, when for the first time H. sapiens reached territory never reached by H. erectus. Europe was reached by H. sapiens around 40 millennia ago, replacing the Neanderthal population. East Asia was reached by 30 millennia ago.
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« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2010, 04:34:49 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Further linguistics suggest an origin in South/Central Africa but there is less physical evidence of this.  Compelling linguistics and other cultural evidence suggests Ethiopia as the most recent origin point in Africa, and fossilized and pre-Human and early human finds are strong evidence of an Ethiopian origin.

It's important to make clear that the only migration linguistics debates is that of the Afro-Asiatic languages, which originated in northeast Africa 8,000 years ago or so, breaking up into the Semitic, Cushitic, Berber, etc. languages. No reputable linguist believes that there is any linguistic evidence remaining from as far back as when humans first left Africa many tens of thousands of years ago.
That is only partially accurate, though I am very much impressed at your understanding of the evolution of Semitic languages.  Indeed, even just in the past 15 years, it has  become the rather conclusive opinion that all Semitic language (and also culture) originated from a proto-Semitic language in Central Ethiopia, by the way which fits entirely into the traditional Ethiopian history which teaches that Ge'ez, the mother tongue of the Tewahedo Church, is in fact the mother tongue of all Semitic languages, and some scholars agree in part.

The clinching evidence is the immense diversity of Semitic languages even today in Ethiopia, in most Semitic places such as the Arabian peninsula and the Near East, there are around a dozen or so Semitic languages with around two dozen dialects, where as in Ethiopia there are nearly 30-40 individual, specifically Semitic languages and almost a hundred Semitic dialectic variations, which is clear evidence that the Semitic language has been evolving for a much longer period of time in Ethiopia than any other places where there is less diversity within the same language.  Just as it is clear that Romance languages evolved in Europe because there are far more variations of these Indo-European languages.

But there is indeed linguistic evidence of early human history  it the form of audible clicks and heavy glotallization.  The glotallized sounds of Semitic languages (the "hawking" sound in Hebrew/Arabic) is the evolutionary leftovers from the very clear and prominent clicking sounds in the Khoi-San peoples are South/Central Africa, who DNA suggests are the oldest continuous living group of humans in the world.  Indeed, almost EVERY single human being today contains the same exact DNA at the bottom of the chain as any living Khoi-San, which is striking evidence that their family is the beginning of all of our family tree.  The combination of DNA and clicking languages strongly suggests the Khoi-San and other related populations as being our most common ancestors.

In Semitic Ethiopian languages there are indeed such heavy glottalizations that they are in fact clicks.  I am learning Amharic, and there are 9 glottalized consonants, and it was very hard for me as a native-English speaker (which has not glottalizations) to learn to be able to do it, but in the end it becomes second nature, and in the hard K/Q sound the glottalization is so pronounced that it indeed clicks almost has obviously as the clicking languages of the Khoi-San of today.

The fact that within Ethiopia, already home to evidence of the oldest pre-human and human physical remains, and also the clear evidence of strong linguistic evolution and origin of Semitic tongues, and that these Ethiopian Semitic tongues even still retain a solid clicking sound, is probably the most clinching evidence of the Out of Africa theory. 

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie
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« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2010, 07:11:12 PM »

But there is indeed linguistic evidence of early human history  it the form of audible clicks and heavy glotallization.  The glotallized sounds of Semitic languages (the "hawking" sound in Hebrew/Arabic) is the evolutionary leftovers from the very clear and prominent clicking sounds in the Khoi-San peoples are South/Central Africa

No, sorry, but your understanding is fallacious. Semitic's array of consonants cannot be linked to "click sounds" of southern African languages. Any common ancestor between the two groups would have had to exist tens of thousands of years ago and, as I said, no reputable linguist believes that any reconstruction of early humanity's speech is possible.

In the time between humanity's first push out of Africa and Proto-Afroasiatic, there was more than enough time for all manner of consonant systems to arise and fade away. Systems rich in laryngeal consonants like Semitic can develop from systems that lack many laryngeal consonants -- this is attested in the recent past for some languages of northern Asia.

FWIW, I am a historical linguist by profession.
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« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2010, 09:44:49 PM »

By the way, what do you think about the History Channel's announcement that King Tut had Celtic DNA? Perhaps this goes in the category of the "Jesus Family Tomb" story, which turned out to be a hoax yet was announced on TV? Or the story that Pyramids have been found in Bosnia?
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« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2010, 10:52:25 PM »

By the way, what do you think about the History Channel's announcement that King Tut had Celtic DNA? Perhaps this goes in the category of the "Jesus Family Tomb" story, which turned out to be a hoax yet was announced on TV? Or the story that Pyramids have been found in Bosnia?

Well, the Irish myths claim that their peoples do originate from an Egyptian princess...

As for the original topic, I agree with what jnorm said earlier. Scientists are always revising the latest theory (read myth) and the last one is always discarded and replaced with new like a dead pet fish... I tend to take everything with a grain of salt (helps with digestion), even with "overwhelming" evidence there will always be some "new" evidence to contradict that. That is not to say that I do not trust any science as we have made many advances through such.
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« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2010, 08:00:48 AM »

By the way, what do you think about the History Channel's announcement that King Tut had Celtic DNA? Perhaps this goes in the category of the "Jesus Family Tomb" story, which turned out to be a hoax yet was announced on TV? Or the story that Pyramids have been found in Bosnia?

Some people might take such a statement as vindicating Irish/Gaelic mythology about an eponymous ancestor called "Scota" who was an Egyptians but all of that was made up by clerics to tie our history in with that of the Middle East and explain it within the biblical world-view.

There's no such thing as "Celtic DNA" unless you mean the Atlantic Modal Haplotype or the haplotypes associated with particular people such as descendants of people like Niall Noígíallach. Most modern day Celtic speaking people are in the Y-chromosome group R1B, and a subset of that called the Atlantic Modal Haplotype. Not everyone is though, and no one ever was. And its not unique to Celtic people, either.

Celtic identity has to do with language and culture... For example when Gaelic people became Anglicized and stopped speaking Gaelic they used to not be considered Gaels anymore.
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« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2010, 07:07:34 PM »

But there is indeed linguistic evidence of early human history  it the form of audible clicks and heavy glotallization.  The glotallized sounds of Semitic languages (the "hawking" sound in Hebrew/Arabic) is the evolutionary leftovers from the very clear and prominent clicking sounds in the Khoi-San peoples are South/Central Africa

No, sorry, but your understanding is fallacious. Semitic's array of consonants cannot be linked to "click sounds" of southern African languages. Any common ancestor between the two groups would have had to exist tens of thousands of years ago and, as I said, no reputable linguist believes that any reconstruction of early humanity's speech is possible.

In the time between humanity's first push out of Africa and Proto-Afroasiatic, there was more than enough time for all manner of consonant systems to arise and fade away. Systems rich in laryngeal consonants like Semitic can develop from systems that lack many laryngeal consonants -- this is attested in the recent past for some languages of northern Asia.

FWIW, I am a historical linguist by profession.

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« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2010, 08:25:10 PM »

But there is indeed linguistic evidence of early human history  it the form of audible clicks and heavy glotallization.  The glotallized sounds of Semitic languages (the "hawking" sound in Hebrew/Arabic) is the evolutionary leftovers from the very clear and prominent clicking sounds in the Khoi-San peoples are South/Central Africa

No, sorry, but your understanding is fallacious. Semitic's array of consonants cannot be linked to "click sounds" of southern African languages.
Is it possible that the Semitic languages in Ethiopia were influenced by 'click' languages that may have formerly existed in Ethiopia?
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« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2010, 02:31:34 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Is it possible that the Semitic languages in Ethiopia were influenced by 'click' languages that may have formerly existed in Ethiopia?


That was  my understanding, but it has been pointed out by a linguist here that while it may be a nice theory or approach, there isn't necessarily the solid evidence.  I am not a linguist, I am an Ethiopianist historian.  Aside from any correlation with clicks, it is at the least coming to be understood as standard that the Afro-Asiatic "Semitic" languages not only originated in Africa, but specifically in Central Ethiopia.  This is disputed, 50 years ago the (more than slightly bigoted) standard was that Semitic languages originated in the Near East and crossed in Africa, but it is becoming increasingly clear that old idea was backwards. The overwhelming diversity of indigenous Semitic languages and dialects in Ethiopia is convincing evidence that Semtic languages have been evolving in Ethiopia longer than any where else, and that tends to happen at a point of origin, whether we are talking about agriculture, tool building, culture, or languages.



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
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« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2010, 02:53:12 AM »

Well, at least now I know the oldest humans are not from Cleveland.

No, they are from Cleveland, but they live in Fort Lauderdale now.
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