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Author Topic: Funny "viewpoint" on Orthodoxy  (Read 787 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dnarmist
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« on: December 23, 2010, 05:04:19 PM »

Saw this review on Amazon, person claims they were former Orthodox.

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In my experience and freedom of thought and expression (Orthodox believers forced an earlier version of this review to be removed, denying me my American Right to freedom of speech, which is typical of ultra-conservative religious groups) this church is an eater of souls. The apostle John tells us that TRUE Christians KNOW FOR A FACT that THEY ARE SAVED and HAVE eternal life. John warns us against those who do not have this inner testimony. THESE PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THIS INNER TESTIMONY and despite ANYTHING they write or say IN PUBLIC, these people dismiss anyone who bears the testimony of the Holy Spirit as to HAVING ETERNAL LIFE. Instead, Orthodox believers say, "Well, I hope to be saved." The really clever ones, the evangelicals who converted, have convinced many Orthodox to try to confuse an evangelical by saying, "Well, I am being saved by Christ right at this moment, and will, hopefully, eventually be saved." You will meet with this language and claim in the pages of this book!

The verse from the New Testament I'm talking about is 1 John 5: 9-13:

"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater, for THIS IS THE WITNESS OF GOD which He hath testified of His Son. He that believeth in the Son of God HATH THE WITNESS IN HIMSELF; he that believeth not God hath made Him a liar, because he believeth not the record that God gave of His Son. And this is the record: that God HATH GIVEN to us ETERNAL LIFE, and this life is in His Son. He that hath the Son HATH LIFE, and he that hath not the Son hath not life. These things I have written unto you that believe in the name of the Son of God, that ye may KNOW that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe in the name of the Son of God."

The Orthodox church and its members have MADE GOD A LIAR by DENYING THE TESTIMONY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Beware! Orthodoxy is a bizarre church, as this book REVEALS to the reader. Picture a very old man who has kept everything he has ever owned, from infancy to old age (trash and treasure, junk and jewels, food and garbage, medicine and poison, tools and toys, truth and lies) and he drags it all behind him in a monstrously gigantic heavy sack everywhere he goes. That's the Orthodox church. This book makes all of this very plain and clear, and sounds a warning for all Christians to heed.

Since the Orthodox church and its members make God a liar by DENYING THE TESTIMONY of the Holy Spirit ala 1 John 5:9-18, and make an idol out of their church, YOU NEED THIS BOOK! You need to be informed as to the history, teachings, and baseless boasts of this church because it is growing rapidly. You need to be able to steer family and friends away from it. These folks are way off course, and The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware will make it all very obvious indeed. This book will demonstrate why you must steer clear of the Orthodox church, unless you actually desire to lose your salvation. For the education of those who objected to my calling the Orthodox church a cult, look the word up in any standard dictionary. It is nothing more than a synonym for religion.

Exercising my American Right to Freedom of Speech,

Nathaniel J. Merritt

http://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Church-New-Timothy-Ware/product-reviews/0140146563/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#R218U1CP8MXFI6
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orthonorm
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2010, 05:08:32 PM »

Picture a very old man who has kept everything he has ever owned, from infancy to old age (trash and treasure, junk and jewels, food and garbage, medicine and poison, tools and toys, truth and lies) and he drags it all behind him in a monstrously gigantic heavy sack everywhere he goes.

When did this guy meet my grandpa?
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2010, 06:03:53 PM »

I'm afraid his American right to freedom of speech will not protect him at the Judgment.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2010, 06:22:03 PM »

I'm afraid his American right to freedom of speech will not protect him at the Judgment.
Ends up one person attached a comment to his review to remind everyone that his "American Right to freedom of speech" is really only a limit against what the government can do. It doesn't protect him against the rules of private organizations, such as the one he alleges removed his previous review.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 06:22:44 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2010, 07:20:18 PM »

Picture a very old man who has kept everything he has ever owned, from infancy to old age (trash and treasure, junk and jewels, food and garbage, medicine and poison, tools and toys, truth and lies) and he drags it all behind him in a monstrously gigantic heavy sack everywhere he goes.

When did this guy meet my grandpa?

Seems he's rather upset that his bathtube is empty, and he is missing a baby.
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« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2010, 07:28:46 PM »

As impious as his whole argumentative, "I know everything" approach seems, I suppose many canonized saints dealt the same way with heretics in their writings, being very uncharitable at times.

The guy has a point in that this verse really does seem to indicate we are to have some surety in our salvation, which definitely is not something taught in Orthodox circles. It's usually more "I'm the worst sinner in the world. Please don't throw me into Hell forever!"

Anybody care to actually respond to the criticism?
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« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2010, 12:19:39 PM »

As impious as his whole argumentative, "I know everything" approach seems, I suppose many canonized saints dealt the same way with heretics in their writings, being very uncharitable at times.

The guy has a point in that this verse really does seem to indicate we are to have some surety in our salvation, which definitely is not something taught in Orthodox circles. It's usually more "I'm the worst sinner in the world. Please don't throw me into Hell forever!"

Anybody care to actually respond to the criticism?

His rant is not worthy of a response.  Orthodox Christians have never used single "proof texts" to formulate certainties, but have used the Scriptures as a whole, along with the Tradition handed down to us, to determine the Truth.

As to being certain of Salvation; I believe that the possibility of Salvation is certain.  "He who believes and is baptized SHALL be saved".  It does not get more clear than this.  However, the sticking point comes in the "He who believes".  Believe in what?  James says the devils believe, and tremble.  Are they saved?  I believe that what John is saying in the above quoted verse is that we can have certainty that God has done, through Jesus Christ, everything that is necessary for our Salvation, and also that in His mercy, He wills for us to be saved.  So, starting on the path to Salvation is NOT a useless or meaningless act.  Just like I know that if I get on I-80 here in Omaha and head East, I will end up in Chicago, so I know that if I am an Orthodox Christian and repent of my sins and follow the Commandments of our Lord and Savior, I will be Saved.  However, just getting on that Interstate does not mean that I will actually arrive in Chicago.  Much can happen along the way.  I can run out of fuel if I have not adequately prepared (or do not make use of the gas stations along the way).  I can make a wrong turn and get on the wrong path (which I have done on occasions while traveling).  Or, I could be involved in an accident, or foul weather.  Likewise is the journey to our Salvation.  We can be sure that the Scriptures are Truth, and that the Church's teachings are Truth.  We can be sure that if we remain truly Orthodox Christians, that the path of Salvation is a true path to Salvation.  However, there is much that can go wrong along the way.
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
ialmisry
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2010, 01:26:13 PM »

As impious as his whole argumentative, "I know everything" approach seems, I suppose many canonized saints dealt the same way with heretics in their writings, being very uncharitable at times.

The guy has a point in that this verse really does seem to indicate we are to have some surety in our salvation, which definitely is not something taught in Orthodox circles. It's usually more "I'm the worst sinner in the world. Please don't throw me into Hell forever!"

Anybody care to actually respond to the criticism?
St. John (I)

5:1 Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. 7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree.

14 And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him. 16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 18 We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one.

1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life-- 2 the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us-- 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And we are writing this that our joy may be complete. 5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

If it were as the rant of the purported apostate misconstrues St. John, the saved would not sin. But St. John tells the saved that we must confess our sins, otherwise the saving Truth is not in us. Hence the rant's misconstruction cannot be right.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 01:27:01 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2010, 03:39:18 PM »

It seems to have CAPITALIZED ASSERTIONS that take into account neither early Church traditions nor obvious counterarguments from within the scriptures.

Quote
In my experience and freedom of thought and expression (Orthodox believers forced an earlier version of this review to be removed, denying me my American Right to freedom of speech, which is typical of ultra-conservative religious groups) this church is an eater of souls. The apostle John tells us that TRUE Christians KNOW FOR A FACT that THEY ARE SAVED and HAVE eternal life. John warns us against those who do not have this inner testimony. THESE PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THIS INNER TESTIMONY and despite ANYTHING they write or say IN PUBLIC, these people dismiss anyone who bears the testimony of the Holy Spirit as to HAVING ETERNAL LIFE.

If failing to think that we are saved no matter what is really something that makes us an eater of souls, we can just change our doctrines like Calvinists do and intentionally brainwash ourselves that:
we are saved no matter what because we Believe in Christianity, and we define Christianity to mean that we are saved no matter what.

Everything makes sense because everything makes sense. Easy.

Propose that X=Y based on the proposition that Y=X, and there is no problem. No discussion or critical thinking needed.


I believe I have Christian Belief, therefore I have the Holy Spirit, so when I personally interpret the scriptures, my competing interpretation must be correct, and those with opposing views don't have Christian faith and are eaters of souls.


« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 04:10:18 PM by rakovsky » Logged
PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2010, 04:04:21 PM »

Sadly, the only merit I see in this review is the reviewer's name.
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« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2010, 04:11:14 PM »

What, you don't believe you are saved no matter what?

« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 04:13:28 PM by rakovsky » Logged
sainthieu
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« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2010, 04:28:31 PM »

Say a quick prayer for Mr. Merritt, and don't give it a second thought.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2010, 04:34:02 PM »

I'm afraid his American right to freedom of speech will not protect him at the Judgment.
Ends up one person attached a comment to his review to remind everyone that his "American Right to freedom of speech" is really only a limit against what the government can do. It doesn't protect him against the rules of private organizations, such as the one he alleges removed his previous review.
So much for his errant view of "freedom of speech". Roll Eyes It looks as if his review got removed AGAIN! laugh
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ialmisry
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« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2010, 04:41:39 PM »

I'm afraid his American right to freedom of speech will not protect him at the Judgment.
Ends up one person attached a comment to his review to remind everyone that his "American Right to freedom of speech" is really only a limit against what the government can do. It doesn't protect him against the rules of private organizations, such as the one he alleges removed his previous review.
So much for his errant view of "freedom of speech". Roll Eyes It looks as if his review got removed AGAIN! laugh
Why not. His rant didn't review the  book at all.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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