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Author Topic: Jehovah Witness Co-worker...  (Read 4175 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 23, 2010, 04:50:37 PM »

Grace and Peace,

I hope everyone has had a wonderful Advent as we enter into the Feast of the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I recently started a new full time job (Thanks be to God) and discovered that one of my co-workers has watched me cross myself at lunch and we had a short but spirited discussion about Christmas and Jesus' Godhood and whatnot.

Does anyone have knowledge of Jehovah Witnesses? What they belief and how to present the Ancient Church to them in a way that is respectful and loving?
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2010, 06:05:32 PM »

http://orthocath.wordpress.com/

This blog is written by an EO who used to be JW. He's got lot's of articles contrasting and 'exposing' JW failures. Most of which are inspired from people asking your very question.
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2010, 06:09:56 PM »

Thanks for the link Azurestone, I'm interested in what this whole "Watchtower" thing is about...
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2010, 06:12:49 PM »

Grace and Peace,

I hope everyone has had a wonderful Advent as we enter into the Feast of the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I recently started a new full time job (Thanks be to God) and discovered that one of my co-workers has watched me cross myself at lunch and we had a short but spirited discussion about Christmas and Jesus' Godhood and whatnot.

Does anyone have knowledge of Jehovah Witnesses? What they belief and how to present the Ancient Church to them in a way that is respectful and loving?

My Grandmother was a JW. When I was a child, she tried to make me into one. While I hated it, and still think it's warped, she planted the Jesus seed in my heart! But that's another story... Smiley Anyway, they don't celebrate holidays (birthdays, Christmas, etc.), they aren't aloud to sing national anthems (I don't think), they have virtually no ascetic practice, they will not accept blood transfusions, and perhaps most importantly, they don't believe that Jesus is/was God. They worship Jehovah, not Jesus. And as you probably know, they are all about door-to-door proselytizing. They worship at the Kingdom Hall and read Awake! magazines, and have the most dry and drab religious gatherings possible. And it's really pretty cult-like, I think. That's all I have for you! Sorry if I offended anyone.
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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2010, 06:24:32 PM »

They follow neoarianism and they belief system is quite illogical and misunderstandable. They are closer to Moslems than to Christians.
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« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2010, 07:02:37 PM »

Know your Bible and know your history. It's really best to have a good understanding of Church history when you're dealing with JW's. They see themselves as a "restoration church" of the Apostles-- so asking them questions about why they don't use the Septuagint, how their church could be "invisible" for 19 centuries, etc. are really good questions to ask them. They're good at twisting scripture to fit their views, just remember you have the Tradition of the Apostles though. Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2010, 07:05:39 PM »

This link has refutation of JWs enough http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnessing/101_questions.htm

However, reasons don't quite do the trick as JWs actually try and convert people, more than can be said of most other Christians. Many people nowadays will have their only knowledge about Christ from JWs.

Does anyone know of examples of effective evangelism by traditional churches?  
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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2010, 07:10:10 PM »

Grace and Peace,

I hope everyone has had a wonderful Advent as we enter into the Feast of the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I recently started a new full time job (Thanks be to God) and discovered that one of my co-workers has watched me cross myself at lunch and we had a short but spirited discussion about Christmas and Jesus' Godhood and whatnot.

Does anyone have knowledge of Jehovah Witnesses? What they belief and how to present the Ancient Church to them in a way that is respectful and loving?

What ancient Church you got in mind?

The teach a variety of heresies, and they have made their own translation to back it up, "the New World Translation."  I have one that I marked up with verses refuting their positions, because even with the deck stacked with their "translation" you can still prove them wrong.

Case in point: they believe that the dead are not active. But their translation of Deut 34:5 tells us that "After that Moses the servant of Jehovah died there in the land of Mo´ab at the order of Jehovah." Over a thousand years later, as even their translation tells us at Luke 9:28 "In actual fact, about eight days after these words, he took Peter and John and James along and climbed up into the mountain to pray. 29 And as he was praying the appearance of his face became different and his apparel became glitteringly white. 30 Also, look! two men were conversing with him, who were Moses and E·li´jah. 31 These appeared with glory and began talking about his departure that he was destined to fulfill at Jerusalem. 32 Now Peter and those with him were weighed down with sleep; but when they got fully awake they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. 33 And as these were being separated from him, Peter said to Jesus: “Instructor, it is fine for us to be here, so let us erect three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for E·li´jah,” he not realizing what he was saying. 34 But as he was saying these things a cloud formed and began to overshadow them. As they entered into the cloud, they became fearful. 35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: “This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him.” 36 And as the voice occurred Jesus was found alone. But they kept quiet and did not report to anyone in those days any of the things they saw. " How, since Moses was dead and could do nothing, was he seen, and was standing, talking and conversing over a thousand years after his death?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/lu/chapter_009.htm

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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2010, 07:30:12 PM »

Jehovah's Witnesses are actually Russelists and Arius' Witnesses.

They DENY:

1) The Triune God.
2) Christ's divinity (They consider Him a false god and say He pretended to be God and looked LIKE God, but was not God". Their Christological heresy is based on the notion of pretense/deception)
3) The Holy Spirit's divinity.(They teach the Spirit is only energy, but not a person)
4) Immortality of the human soul.
5) Eternal punishment (existence of Hell)
6) Allegiance to earthly authorities (no military service, no paying taxes, no saluting flags)
7) Celebration of religious festivals.
8)The Apostolic Church of Christ and all the Ecumenical Councils.

As a cult, they naturally adhere to weird teachings and practices, such as, objecting to blood transfusion even at the risk of one's life, claiming that only 144,000 people will live in eternal bliss, Christ was nailed to a stake instead of a cross, etc..)
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2010, 07:36:43 PM »

Quote
Christ was nailed to a stake instead of a cross,

What kind of historical evidence do they point to regarding that?
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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2010, 09:30:28 PM »

I was interested in reading this thread because of my recent encounter with JW.
This little old lady lives on the same floor as us but I haven’t talked to her before other than the usual small talk and “how are you kind of thing”. When I was coming home on Sunday, I saw her coming in(it was afternoon) and assumed that she was probably coming home from church(I saw her read Bible before on the bus stop). Me and my big mouth asked her if she was coming from church.

Her: No, we have services on Sat but not on Sunday

Me, thinking: Hmm, kind of odd, most churches have Sunday(or Saturday and Sunday)

Her: Are you coming from church? What church do you go to?

Me: I usually go to St.Constantine and St.Helen

Her, giving me a troubled look: you know, there are some false churches out there and people thinking that they are being taught word of God when its not. Its all in the Bible, you know.

Me, thinking”oh, dear, is she trying to say that her church is the only right one?

Her, eagerly: You know, I do this sort of bible study for families and couples, I’d love to have you come..

Me: Eh, well, I’m already involved in a bible study group..

Her: Well, I could just sit down with you alone and explain it all to you. You need to know the truth and what’s taught in the Bible

Me, slowly backing away towards my apartment: Thank you but I’m already a Christian and we read and study Bible in my church.

Her, abruptly: Do you call God by his name?

Me: What? Sorry, not sure what you mean.

Her: opening her Bible and pointing at one of the psalms where God is called Jehovah

Me: Yes, I read that before. I have KJ version so I think its pretty accurate”

Her: Well, do you have some time now? I really would like to go over some things in the Bible that you NEED to know.

Me: I’m sorry but I don’t have the time. Please do not be concerned-the church I belong to is a Christian church, not Mormon or Jehovah witness

Her, looking at me with some hostility

Me, realization dawning at me: oh, crap…slowly backing away while mumbling “thank you but its ok”

I just offended a Jehovah Witness and she lives 3 doors down from me. Talk about putting your foot in your mouth…
oh, dear..
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2010, 09:46:17 PM »

In my encounter with JW's, they would offer me a booklet or some booklets, and I ask them, "I'll accept if I can offer you something back" and they say "Sure!"  I give them a copy of HH Pope Shenouda's booklet, "The Divinity of Christ," which I find it an excellent tool for those who find it hard accept the authority of Church fathers as it is replete with Scripture references.  They never bothered me again.  I don't know why, as I am very cordial and patient in listening to what they have to say  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2010, 09:51:01 PM »

In my encounter with JW's, they would offer me a booklet or some booklets, and I ask them, "I'll accept if I can offer you something back" and they say "Sure!"  I give them a copy of HH Pope Shenouda's booklet, "The Divinity of Christ," which I find it an excellent tool for those who find it hard accept the authority of Church fathers as it is replete with Scripture references.  They never bothered me again.  I don't know why, as I am very cordial and patient in listening to what they have to say  Wink

LOL what would you give to Mormons then?
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2010, 09:59:44 PM »

In my encounter with JW's, they would offer me a booklet or some booklets, and I ask them, "I'll accept if I can offer you something back" and they say "Sure!"  I give them a copy of HH Pope Shenouda's booklet, "The Divinity of Christ," which I find it an excellent tool for those who find it hard accept the authority of Church fathers as it is replete with Scripture references.  They never bothered me again.  I don't know why, as I am very cordial and patient in listening to what they have to say  Wink

LOL what would you give to Mormons then?

Probably a copy of the Didache.
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2010, 11:18:42 PM »

Yes, he gave a same booklet and we talked, in broad brush strokes, concerning the name of God and that led to a small debate concerning Christ as 'Lord'...

I pointed out the Gospel of St. John and the Logos and I asked him is he understood what that word meant in the time of St. Paul and why would God use such a word. He seems to be very anti-pagan and anti-greek or gentile. I wasn't sure exactly why but I've met a number of Fundamentalists like that so I just assumed he was so for similar reasons.

Does anyone have any advice with regard to the term "Logos"... as a basis for a discussion on Christ's relationship with God the Father?

Thank you.
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2010, 11:35:01 PM »

Does anyone have any advice with regard to the term "Logos"... as a basis for a discussion on Christ's relationship with God the Father?

Thank you.

Did you tie it in with the OT? In brief, (Genesis) in the beginning was the Word, to later (in John) the Word was made flesh.

Jesus was part of God before creation, and He is that same God who came down and became man.
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2010, 11:54:05 PM »

Does anyone have any advice with regard to the term "Logos"... as a basis for a discussion on Christ's relationship with God the Father?

Thank you.

Did you tie it in with the OT? In brief, (Genesis) in the beginning was the Word, to later (in John) the Word was made flesh.

Jesus was part of God before creation, and He is that same God who came down and became man.


Grace and Peace,

Actually, I didn't get that far with any particular point. This was kinda of a very quick back and forth discussion and it was the first religious discussion we've had since I started working there so I was a little off balance and honestly I haven't been doing a lot of reading on JW and I've never had the chance to meet one and discuss anything with them. I was using the Word (Logos) as an 'in' for legitimizing the Early Churches use of Greek Philosophy and attempting to suggest to him that Christianity can't simply be understood as a Hebrew Faith but one that draws from both the Greek and Hebrew Worlds.

Is there any merit in that?
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« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2010, 12:19:06 AM »

Does anyone have any advice with regard to the term "Logos"... as a basis for a discussion on Christ's relationship with God the Father?

Thank you.

Did you tie it in with the OT? In brief, (Genesis) in the beginning was the Word, to later (in John) the Word was made flesh.

Jesus was part of God before creation, and He is that same God who came down and became man.


Grace and Peace,

Actually, I didn't get that far with any particular point. This was kinda of a very quick back and forth discussion and it was the first religious discussion we've had since I started working there so I was a little off balance and honestly I haven't been doing a lot of reading on JW and I've never had the chance to meet one and discuss anything with them. I was using the Word (Logos) as an 'in' for legitimizing the Early Churches use of Greek Philosophy and attempting to suggest to him that Christianity can't simply be understood as a Hebrew Faith but one that draws from both the Greek and Hebrew Worlds.

Is there any merit in that?
perhaps, but arguing that with him is going to just go in circles. The logos, dbar in Hebrew has antecedents in Philo and the Memphite Theology and other Near Eastern mythologies, but you would have to explain them all to him before debating him on it. It would be a waste of time.

They only accept their own translation of the Scriptures. Argue from that.
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« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2010, 12:31:39 AM »

Jehovah Witness Bible-New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures :

John 1:1

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/joh/chapter_001.htm

John 1:1 (King James Version)

 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201:1&version=KJV

John 1:1  (Douay-Rheims)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50001.htm
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« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2010, 12:55:14 AM »

Ignatius,

 I admire your desire to help this person out of the darkness and captivity of this cult.  Smiley  The way I tend to believe works the best is slow, maybe a bit tedious, but really simple.  The first thing you want to do is be their friend.  For me, this means to accept them right where they are.  Find at least one thing you like about this person and go from there.  Maybe you could listen to him/her and discover an interest of theirs and then take an interest in that.  People like to feel accepted and to know that someone cares.  Do your best to be sincere.  People don't mind being sold something if they know the seller really has their best interest and that they really do care about them.  Also, know that he/she will be watching you to see if your actions line up with your words.  Second, take the time to learn about the JW religion.  If it is the will of God, you will be called to witness to them and, I believe, if you know some things about their religion, this will help.  Third (actually, this probably should be first), pray for them.  Ask God to help you reach this person.  I think if you stick to these three points, and if it is God's will, you will reach your coworker.  But I can't stress enough to you that the most important part of reaching someone is to become their friend and to love them sincerely.  Even the most jaded, hardened person still has an intrinsic need to be needed, respected and loved.  That's all I got, bubba.  Cheesy  God bless you. 
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« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2010, 12:59:43 AM »

Ignatius,

 I admire your desire to help this person out of the darkness and captivity of this cult.  Smiley  The way I tend to believe works the best is slow, maybe a bit tedious, but really simple.  The first thing you want to do is be their friend.  For me, this means to accept them right where they are.  Find at least one thing you like about this person and go from there.  Maybe you could listen to him/her and discover an interest of theirs and then take an interest in that.  People like to feel accepted and to know that someone cares.  Do your best to be sincere.  People don't mind being sold something if they know the seller really has their best interest and that they really do care about them.  Also, know that he/she will be watching you to see if your actions line up with your words.  Second, take the time to learn about the JW religion.  If it is the will of God, you will be called to witness to them and, I believe, if you know some things about their religion, this will help.  Third (actually, this probably should be first), pray for them.  Ask God to help you reach this person.  I think if you stick to these three points, and if it is God's will, you will reach your coworker.  But I can't stress enough to you that the most important part of reaching someone is to become their friend and to love them sincerely.  Even the most jaded, hardened person still has an intrinsic need to be needed, respected and loved.  That's all I got, bubba.  Cheesy  God bless you. 

Slow is always best with Jehovah's Witnesses.  If you outright disprove (perhaps even going so far as to break out the Greek texts of the New Testament and show how their translation is wrong) their beliefs, they aren't supposed to talk to you again.
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« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2010, 01:00:16 AM »

In my encounter with JW's, they would offer me a booklet or some booklets, and I ask them, "I'll accept if I can offer you something back" and they say "Sure!"  I give them a copy of HH Pope Shenouda's booklet, "The Divinity of Christ," which I find it an excellent tool for those who find it hard accept the authority of Church fathers as it is replete with Scripture references.  They never bothered me again.  I don't know why, as I am very cordial and patient in listening to what they have to say  Wink

LOL what would you give to Mormons then?

Probably a copy of the Didache.
Grin  So true....but alas, haven't gotten them coming to my door, although I did meet two of them once at a laundromat.  I didn't know anything about Mormonism then.  When I explained to them about Orthodoxy, they told me it sounds similar to what they practice.  So I gave them the website ccel.org/fathers
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« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2010, 01:03:17 AM »

In my encounter with JW's, they would offer me a booklet or some booklets, and I ask them, "I'll accept if I can offer you something back" and they say "Sure!"  I give them a copy of HH Pope Shenouda's booklet, "The Divinity of Christ," which I find it an excellent tool for those who find it hard accept the authority of Church fathers as it is replete with Scripture references.  They never bothered me again.  I don't know why, as I am very cordial and patient in listening to what they have to say  Wink

LOL what would you give to Mormons then?

Probably a copy of the Didache.
Grin  So true....but alas, haven't gotten them coming to my door, although I did meet two of them once at a laundromat.  I didn't know anything about Mormonism then.  When I explained to them about Orthodoxy, they told me it sounds similar to what they practice.  So I gave them the website ccel.org/fathers


LOL. I'd be surprised, if they went there.
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« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2010, 02:06:53 AM »

Grace and Peace,

I hope everyone has had a wonderful Advent as we enter into the Feast of the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I recently started a new full time job (Thanks be to God) and discovered that one of my co-workers has watched me cross myself at lunch and we had a short but spirited discussion about Christmas and Jesus' Godhood and whatnot.

Does anyone have knowledge of Jehovah Witnesses? What they belief and how to present the Ancient Church to them in a way that is respectful and loving?


I showed a JW associate these two books:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/080103468X/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0801022258&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0B289VYX0NF5EAEW0NYH (Apostolic fathers)

http://www.amazon.com/Apostolic-Fathers-Jack-N-Sparks/dp/0840756615/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1293075712&sr=1-1 (Apostolic Fathers)

I told him how faithful they were, and that he should read them. He told me no, he said all he goes by is the Bible. Then he gave me an awake magazine and said ....."read this".

I told him "I thought all you go by is the Bible"? He grinned, and said "this only goes by the Bible".

Basically, I showed him that that was his commentary to the Bible, just as the books I showed him were my commentary to the Scriptures. The only difference was that some of mine knew the Apostles while his didn't. Some of mine sat at their feet, while his came 1,900 years too late.

I told him that if you are going to go by the name Christian, then in order to be true you will not only have to trace your group back for 2,000 years, but you will also have to trace your special doctrines back for 2,000 years.  

He pulled the Apostasy card, and so we went back and forth about that. Now he doesn't want to speak to me nor look at anything I want to give him. He is literally scared to talk to me and look at what I have to share.

He said he must guard himself from such stuff and that he no longer wants to talk about religion with me anymore.


I forgot what this is called when JW's do this to the ones they speak to. But he's no longer allowed to talk to me. At least about things of faith.







« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 02:08:55 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2010, 02:20:25 AM »

I told him how faithful they were, and that he should read them. He told me no, he said all he goes by is the Bible. Then he gave me an awake magazine and said ....."read this".

I told him "I thought all you go by is the Bible"? He grinned, and said "this only goes by the Bible".

LOL.  Sola Scriptura is so easy to disprove I almost feel like I'm cheating at it.
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« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2010, 02:22:58 AM »

Last month I did a post about one of their youtube videos that someone asked about:
http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/2010/11/jehovah-witnesses-protestant.html (Jehovah Witnesses & Protestant Restorationism)

The JW video in question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dfE9IE_vGU (JEHOVAH´S WITNESSES - FAITH IN ACTION : OUT OF DARKNESS ~1)


I'll repost the important part:
Quote
Quote:
"In regards to the first video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dfE9IE_vGU


Read chapters 20 to 42. Tertullian answered this back in 197A.D. about 101 years after the death of the Apostle John or about 130 something years after the deaths of the Apostles Peter and Paul.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm


Later in the video(part 1) they talk specifically about Roman Catholicism.....they probably don't even know that the Orthodox exist. And so I will give a Roman Catholic link that adresses the issue from their perspective.

Episode 6 – Ecclesial Deism

or simply Download the mp3

The article from which the podcast was made.

In regards to the other 6 videos, I will say that every group on the planet has a history. A beginning in how they were formed. The JW's come from the millerite movement, those in the millerite movement were also called Second Adventists because their focus was on the second advent of Christ.

Those from the millerite movement are:

1.) Seventh Day Adventist (they formed their group after the Adventist Christian Church formed theirs)

2.) Advent Christian Church (1st day Adventist)

3.) The World Wide Church of God (they split from the SDA's)

There are about a few dozen more millerite break off groups I didn't name, but the ones up above are the big 3 or main 3.

The JW's stem from group # 2

What most millerites have in common are their doctrines about:

1.) Soul sleep
2.) The rejection of the immortal soul doctrine
3.) Jesus being the Archangel Micheal
4.) Date setting.....jesus coming but when the date passed they either changed their mind, set up a new date, or spiritualized the error. Like Jesus coming back spiritually in 1844 or in 1917.....etc.

Early on the Seventh Day Adventists had a hard time embracing the doctrine of the Trinity. Some of them embraced it while others didn't. Eventually they came around to officially embrace the doctrine. Some of the more radical SDA off shoots still reject it.

The World Wide Church of God taught Biniterianism. Meaning, they only believed the Father and Son to be God. They didn't believe the Holy Spirit to be God. They taught the idea of Him being a force. In the 1990's, the main body officially embraced the doctrine of the Trinity. However, it caused a split within the group and so the more radical break off groups still teach Biniterianism.


The JW's (Jehovah Witnesses) are Unitarians. They only see the Father as God, the son a creature and the Holy Spirit a force.

In the 19th century of New England you had the rise of liberalism and Unitarianism in general, and so I wouldn't be surprised to see that the JW's borrowed alot from other people and groups. And so they are a mixture of their own unique ideas as well as the ideas of others. A denominational mutt or tossed salad.

From watching all 7 videos I couldn't help but compare it to the yoga copyright lawsuit of some years ago. This Indian guy started a franchise of certain yoga positions from his homeland, and he sued others who used his method and style of patterns.

In a similar way, it seems as if the JW's are nothing more than a franchise of how one man understood Scripture. The video made it seem as if they are a franchise of how one man did Bible Study. It's his methods of Scriptural interpretation and his methods of what pattern to take in understanding Scripture. He borrowed alot of patterns, methods and ideas from other people and mixed it with his own original ideas.

The end result was the JW's organization.

As far as their truth claims go......I would say that they are not the only Restorationists in town. The Mormons are restorationists, the same with the Churches of Christ, Seventh Day Adventists, Amish, some World Wide Churches of god break off groups, as well as some Pentecostal groups.

And so what makes them so special from the truth claims of all these other groups? The JW's teach that a total apostasy happened as soon as the last Apostle died.

So how can they be so sure that god chose their group to bring thee true faith back over against another group that claims the same thing? Why should anyone listen to them and not the Mormons, Amish, SDA's, Churches of Christ, some World Wide Church of god groups, and some Pentecostal groups? Shoot! You might even have some Baptist groups like that, and so why should anyone trust their claims over and against their competitors?

What makes them so special?

Also, if they are wrong about total apostasy when the last Apostle died, then what right do they have to even exist? They should disband and join what Jesus and the Apostles really started.


I hope this helps
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« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2010, 02:29:49 AM »

I told him how faithful they were, and that he should read them. He told me no, he said all he goes by is the Bible. Then he gave me an awake magazine and said ....."read this".

I told him "I thought all you go by is the Bible"? He grinned, and said "this only goes by the Bible".

LOL.  Sola Scriptura is so easy to disprove I almost feel like I'm cheating at it.

Yeah, I asked him to show me where Jesus said "only go by the Bible?" And with him giving me the awake magazine, I showed how he contradicted his "I only go by the Bible" statement.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 02:31:25 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2010, 02:36:32 AM »

Jehovah Witness Bible-New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures :

John 1:1

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/joh/chapter_001.htm

John 1:1 (King James Version)

 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201:1&version=KJV

John 1:1  (Douay-Rheims)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50001.htm

Grace and Peace,

A lot of very good advice and suggestions from a lot of good hearted posters... much thanks to all.

Looking at the first translation... I'm wondering why the change? Any ideas?
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« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2010, 02:43:06 AM »

Jehovah Witness Bible-New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures :

John 1:1

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/joh/chapter_001.htm

John 1:1 (King James Version)

 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201:1&version=KJV

John 1:1  (Douay-Rheims)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50001.htm

Grace and Peace,

A lot of very good advice and suggestions from a lot of good hearted posters... much thanks to all.

Looking at the first translation... I'm wondering why the change? Any ideas?
god=/=God.
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« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2010, 03:01:02 AM »

Jehovah Witness Bible-New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures :

John 1:1

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/joh/chapter_001.htm

John 1:1 (King James Version)

 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201:1&version=KJV

John 1:1  (Douay-Rheims)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50001.htm

Grace and Peace,

A lot of very good advice and suggestions from a lot of good hearted posters... much thanks to all.

Looking at the first translation... I'm wondering why the change? Any ideas?
god=/=God.

What I mean to ask is, is there any merit from the Greek translation for making such a change?

From what little I know of the greek "theos"... it's uses in the earlier part of the verse and yet they are still translating that as 'God' with a big 'g'? I'm not sure how to take that?
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« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2010, 03:12:49 AM »

Jehovah Witness Bible-New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures :

John 1:1

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/joh/chapter_001.htm

John 1:1 (King James Version)

 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201:1&version=KJV

John 1:1  (Douay-Rheims)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50001.htm

Grace and Peace,

A lot of very good advice and suggestions from a lot of good hearted posters... much thanks to all.

Looking at the first translation... I'm wondering why the change? Any ideas?
god=/=God.

What I mean to ask is, is there any merit from the Greek translation for making such a change?

From what little I know of the greek "theos"... it's uses in the earlier part of the verse and yet they are still translating that as 'God' with a big 'g'? I'm not sure how to take that?

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/john1_1_eb.htm

Here is a full article about the translation of "Kai Theos". A little long, but well worth the read.

I've got a couple more articles on the other computer, linked, but you'll have to wait until morning.
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« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2010, 03:24:55 AM »

Jehovah Witness Bible-New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures :

John 1:1

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/joh/chapter_001.htm

John 1:1 (King James Version)

 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201:1&version=KJV

John 1:1  (Douay-Rheims)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50001.htm

Grace and Peace,

A lot of very good advice and suggestions from a lot of good hearted posters... much thanks to all.

Looking at the first translation... I'm wondering why the change? Any ideas?
They deny the existence of the Holy Trinity. I believe they say Jesus was a god, rather than God, hence their translation. Jesus was not God incarnate according to their beliefs.
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« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2010, 03:27:08 AM »

Quote
Christ was nailed to a stake instead of a cross,

What kind of historical evidence do they point to regarding that?

ZERO evidence. This is a cult of allegations rather than proof.  Grin
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« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2010, 03:31:45 AM »


What I mean to ask is, is there any merit from the Greek translation for making such a change?

From what little I know of the greek "theos"... it's uses in the earlier part of the verse and yet they are still translating that as 'God' with a big 'g'? I'm not sure how to take that?

They do not care about the Greek original. They only distort the English translation in accordance with their claim that the Word LOOKED LIKE the Father, but was not equal to Him or consubstantial with Him. In other words, they say that the Word was made "a god" by the Father as Moses had been made "a god" to Pharaoh. (They have Arian Christology)  Wink
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« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2010, 03:34:57 AM »


What I mean to ask is, is there any merit from the Greek translation for making such a change?

From what little I know of the greek "theos"... it's uses in the earlier part of the verse and yet they are still translating that as 'God' with a big 'g'? I'm not sure how to take that?

They do not care about the Greek original. They only distort the English translation in accordance with their claim that the Word LOOKED LIKE the Father, but was not equal to Him or consubstantial with Him. In other words, they say that the Word was made "a god" by the Father as Moses had been made "a god" to Pharaoh. (They have Arian Christology)  Wink

Yet, through understanding the original Greek, you can (once again) show they're full of it.
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« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2010, 03:37:28 AM »


http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/john1_1_eb.htm

Here is a full article about the translation of "Kai Theos". A little long, but well worth the read.

I've got a couple more articles on the other computer, linked, but you'll have to wait until morning.

Grace and Peace Azurestone,

I read through that article and it was 'awesome'! Thank you so much for sharing it with me. Many Blessings!

When you have the time, I would be very grateful if you could post the other articles/papers you spoke about on your other computer.

Thanks again.
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« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2010, 03:41:30 AM »


Yet, through understanding the original Greek, you can (once again) show they're full of it.

They may only argue that the word THEOS used before the word Logos in the Greek original does not have an article (it reads THEON ein o Logos), but this does not let them attach an indefinite article to it in the English translation.  Wink

Here is another comprehensive article about this issue:
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/jesus_jw.html  (it has links to various articles dealing with this allegation of Arius' Witnesses)
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« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2010, 06:43:55 AM »

Her, abruptly: Do you call God by his name?

Me: What? Sorry, not sure what you mean.

Her: opening her Bible and pointing at one of the psalms where God is called Jehovah

"Jehovah" is a westernization of יְהֹוָה
(yud-hay-vav-hay) which is a replacemment for the name of G-D, not G-D's actual name.
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« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2010, 10:43:39 AM »


Yet, through understanding the original Greek, you can (once again) show they're full of it.

They may only argue that the word THEOS used before the word Logos in the Greek original does not have an article (it reads THEON ein o Logos), but this does not let them attach an indefinite article to it in the English translation.  Wink

Here is another comprehensive article about this issue:
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/jesus_jw.html  (it has links to various articles dealing with this allegation of Arius' Witnesses)

My previous post had another link answering the "En arche een ho logos. kai ho logos een pros ton theon, kai theos een ho logos" question.
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« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2010, 10:49:16 AM »


http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/john1_1_eb.htm

Here is a full article about the translation of "Kai Theos". A little long, but well worth the read.

I've got a couple more articles on the other computer, linked, but you'll have to wait until morning.

Grace and Peace Azurestone,

I read through that article and it was 'awesome'! Thank you so much for sharing it with me. Many Blessings!

When you have the time, I would be very grateful if you could post the other articles/papers you spoke about on your other computer.

Thanks again.

Here they are:
Response to Misha Al Kadhi on John 1:1 (Part 1)
Response to Misha Al Kadhi on John 1:1 (Part 2)
Jesus as “a god” alongside God: Jehovah’s Witnesses and John 1:1
The meaning of 2 Corinthians 4:4
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« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2010, 12:11:49 PM »

Jehovah Witness Bible-New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures :

John 1:1

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/joh/chapter_001.htm

John 1:1 (King James Version)

 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201:1&version=KJV

John 1:1  (Douay-Rheims)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50001.htm

Grace and Peace,

A lot of very good advice and suggestions from a lot of good hearted posters... much thanks to all.

Looking at the first translation... I'm wondering why the change? Any ideas?
god=/=God.

What I mean to ask is, is there any merit from the Greek translation for making such a change?

From what little I know of the greek "theos"... it's uses in the earlier part of the verse and yet they are still translating that as 'God' with a big 'g'? I'm not sure how to take that?

I'm not sure what the Hebrew word for "Logos" is, but a very simply logical question is this.  If you were to go to Greece and want to spread the religion of JW's, what word would you use as a translation for the Greeks?  To ask for merit of the use of the word "Logos" is like asking for merit of the use of the word "Word."
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« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2010, 11:15:58 PM »

Jehovah Witness Bible-New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures :

John 1:1

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/joh/chapter_001.htm

John 1:1 (King James Version)

 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201:1&version=KJV

John 1:1  (Douay-Rheims)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50001.htm

Grace and Peace,

A lot of very good advice and suggestions from a lot of good hearted posters... much thanks to all.

Looking at the first translation... I'm wondering why the change? Any ideas?
god=/=God.

What I mean to ask is, is there any merit from the Greek translation for making such a change?

From what little I know of the greek "theos"... it's uses in the earlier part of the verse and yet they are still translating that as 'God' with a big 'g'? I'm not sure how to take that?

I'm not sure what the Hebrew word for "Logos" is, but a very simply logical question is this.  If you were to go to Greece and want to spread the religion of JW's, what word would you use as a translation for the Greeks?  To ask for merit of the use of the word "Logos" is like asking for merit of the use of the word "Word."

Grace and Peace,

I think others have pointed me into good directions on this subject... with regard to the use or lack-there-of of a 'definite article'.

What I meant by Logos was the fact that Logos, particularly in the time of St. John and even St. Paul, was pregnant with philosophical meaning unlike the work 'lexis' (word in the grammatical sense). The point I was attempting to make was the Logos wasn't simply 'word' but was taken from Greek Philosophy with far richer meaning than most modern Protestants would recognize rifling through Strong's.
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« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2010, 11:44:30 PM »

How does it matter for a JW?  For Arius, the Logos was a created being, so it doesn't matter what philosophical idea there was, he confessed the Logos.  The same philosophical idea exists, but the difference simply is what the Logos is.

For JW's, the question then becomes, how is "lexis" a person?  What does "word" mean to them?
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« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2010, 11:57:12 PM »

Are there any JW's in salt lake city? You know? I don't see them trying to convert Mormons, and I don't see Mormons trying to convert them.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong about that, but they don't seem to attack eachother. The JW I spoke to didn't even know what a Mormon was.
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« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2010, 12:16:07 AM »

How does it matter for a JW?  For Arius, the Logos was a created being, so it doesn't matter what philosophical idea there was, he confessed the Logos.  The same philosophical idea exists, but the difference simply is what the Logos is.

For JW's, the question then becomes, how is "lexis" a person?  What does "word" mean to them?

I was given a small booklet that I've skimmed and it appears that they recognize Jesus as the 'First Creation'... even existing before the creation of the world. I don't know if my co-worker believes that as he seems a bit more 'islamic' in his views of Jesus as being simply a man/prophet. I just thought if he understood the Logos as the animating principle pervading the Universe that he might be a little more generous with interpreting it as a person within the actual Godhead and not simply 'a god'... I'm not sure what that actually means. So do they teach that there are other God's besides God?
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« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2010, 12:19:02 AM »

Grace and Peace,

I hope everyone has had a wonderful Advent as we enter into the Feast of the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I recently started a new full time job (Thanks be to God) and discovered that one of my co-workers has watched me cross myself at lunch and we had a short but spirited discussion about Christmas and Jesus' Godhood and whatnot.

Does anyone have knowledge of Jehovah Witnesses? What they belief and how to present the Ancient Church to them in a way that is respectful and loving?

My Grandmother was a JW. When I was a child, she tried to make me into one. While I hated it, and still think it's warped, she planted the Jesus seed in my heart! But that's another story... Smiley Anyway, they don't celebrate holidays (birthdays, Christmas, etc.), they aren't aloud to sing national anthems (I don't think), they have virtually no ascetic practice, they will not accept blood transfusions, and perhaps most importantly, they don't believe that Jesus is/was God. They worship Jehovah, not Jesus. And as you probably know, they are all about door-to-door proselytizing. They worship at the Kingdom Hall and read Awake! magazines, and have the most dry and drab religious gatherings possible. And it's really pretty cult-like, I think. That's all I have for you! Sorry if I offended anyone.

Their great rivals are the Mormons, who are also big proselytizers and who rival them in drabness.
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« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2010, 12:29:18 AM »

Know your Bible and know your history. It's really best to have a good understanding of Church history when you're dealing with JW's. They see themselves as a "restoration church" of the Apostles-- so asking them questions about why they don't use the Septuagint, how their church could be "invisible" for 19 centuries, etc. are really good questions to ask them. They're good at twisting scripture to fit their views, just remember you have the Tradition of the Apostles though. Smiley

It's a message specifically tailored to a Protestant audience.  Apostolic authority and revelation are two things no Protestant church has, so it's kind of an appealing presentation if you're a Lutheran or an Anglican, or some other religion founded by some guy.

And of course no Protestant would consider becoming a Catholic, whose crimes have been extensively cataloged and which many Protestants still believe is controlled by Satan.  So if a church with an Apostolic foundation is what you're after, JW (and Mormonism) are your only options.

None of these people have ever heard of the Orthodox church.  It's far far away, very foreign looking and probably some kind of Islam or something.  Orthodoxy is exactly what most Protestants are all looking for but shhh the true gospel of Jesus Christ is a secret and not to be talked about with outsiders!  I think Jesus gave specific instructions before he left that it not be shared.
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« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2010, 12:34:49 AM »

Know your Bible and know your history. It's really best to have a good understanding of Church history when you're dealing with JW's. They see themselves as a "restoration church" of the Apostles-- so asking them questions about why they don't use the Septuagint, how their church could be "invisible" for 19 centuries, etc. are really good questions to ask them. They're good at twisting scripture to fit their views, just remember you have the Tradition of the Apostles though. Smiley

It's a message specifically tailored to a Protestant audience.  Apostolic authority and revelation are two things no Protestant church has, so it's kind of an appealing presentation if you're a Lutheran or an Anglican, or some other religion founded by some guy.

Not a good choice of Protestant denominations, since those movements are splinters of the RCC, not self created, and hold to apostolic succession (in theory).

None of these people have ever heard of the Orthodox church.  It's far far away, very foreign looking and probably some kind of Islam or something.  Orthodoxy is exactly what most Protestants are all looking for but shhh the true gospel of Jesus Christ is a secret and not to be talked about with outsiders!  I think Jesus gave specific instructions before he left that it not be shared.

LOL!
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« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2010, 01:05:59 AM »

Hi.

One Christmas day while having dinner with my family, back in 2003, my family (Catholic) started discussing religion. My brother started talking about what he believed about Jesus Christ. I was educated in a Catholic High School, so I knew that what he was espousing was Arianism, and I told him so. Being told by the priest at my church that Arianism survives within the sect of the Jehova's witness, I asked him:" are you a Jehovah's Witness? He looked at me strangely, not thinking that he would be discovered, before he replied that he was going to soon be baptized as a Jehovah's Witness. Then he went on to say that Jesus was actually an incarnation not of God, but of the Archangel Michael, whom they consider to be God's "first created". Considering this very strange, I decided to read up on them. I wanted an Orthodox Christian perspective, but what I found was this very good book put out by Catholic Answers on the Jehovah's Witness that was quite informative. Unfortunately, I can't find the book in my personal library, but on the Catholic Answers website they do have a good, brief article explaining the Jehovah's Witness, their history, their doctrine, their expectations concerning proselytizing, and their eschatology (their belief on the end times - they embrace millennialism, and they have predicted that the world would come to an end on numerous occasions and ... well, we're still around!). Another good read comes from the OODE web site (Orthodox Outlet for Dogmatic Enquiries - sorry to disappoint the Dr. Who fans out there). From the list of articles on the OODE web site, a good read is the very first article called In Search of the Truth - which is a true account of two people living in Greece, one a convert and one who was born into the organization - Very informative. When dealing with these people, it is important to realize that they are trained very well to proselytize. They are very used to putting forth a good offensive and they will use your ignorance - of your own faith as well as theirs- to accomplish their goal of either putting you to shame through provocation, or ultimately convincing you that they are in the right. DO NOT GET INTO CONVERSATIONS WITH THEM UNLESS YOU KNOW YOUR OWN FAITH WELL, THAT OF THE WATCHTOWER CULT, AND THEIR METHODS FOR PROSELYTIZING. Politely (if you can!) excuse yourself from any religious conversation with them. If they persist, then be stern! And be mindful that For all the use they give to scripture to convince you, realize that it is what the Watchtower publishes in their magazine, not the Bible, which is their de facto final authority. If you've ever read George Orwell's 1984, you will find that the Watchtower is very good at employing Doublethink, changing their beliefs and expecting their followers to believe that this is what the Watchtower has always preached. They tend to be very cultish, and defecting from the group presents quite a hardship on the person wishing to defect, since EVERY MEMBER (family, employers, etc..) cannot even greet the defector. Here are the links:
< http://www.catholic.com > (They have several articles -- in the "search" box, simply type in "Jehovah's Witness"), and
< http://www.oodegr.com/english/watchtower/watchtower.htm#ARTICLES >. Hope this helps.
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« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2010, 01:20:59 AM »

Seriously, if y'all weren't so low-profile you could have spared me about a decade's worth of work Roll Eyes
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« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2010, 01:31:04 AM »

Know your Bible and know your history. It's really best to have a good understanding of Church history when you're dealing with JW's. They see themselves as a "restoration church" of the Apostles-- so asking them questions about why they don't use the Septuagint, how their church could be "invisible" for 19 centuries, etc. are really good questions to ask them. They're good at twisting scripture to fit their views, just remember you have the Tradition of the Apostles though. Smiley

It's a message specifically tailored to a Protestant audience.  Apostolic authority and revelation are two things no Protestant church has, so it's kind of an appealing presentation if you're a Lutheran or an Anglican, or some other religion founded by some guy.

And of course no Protestant would consider becoming a Catholic, whose crimes have been extensively cataloged and which many Protestants still believe is controlled by Satan.  So if a church with an Apostolic foundation is what you're after, JW (and Mormonism) are your only options.

None of these people have ever heard of the Orthodox church.  It's far far away, very foreign looking and probably some kind of Islam or something.  Orthodoxy is exactly what most Protestants are all looking for but shhh the true gospel of Jesus Christ is a secret and not to be talked about with outsiders!  I think Jesus gave specific instructions before he left that it not be shared.
----
I wonder if you noticed that the person posting this query was herself a Roman Catholic... Although the author of this blog and the moderator of this forum is Orthodox, there are people of other faith traditions out there who are registered on this forum.  Many of them are perhaps enquirers. There is a saying out there: Better to attract flies by honey than by vinegar. Perhaps it would do you well to learn it. Oh, and yea... there are PLENTY of Protestants - even Evangelical Protestants - who are converting to the Catholic Church as well as Orthodoxy. There seems to be a movement among Protestants yearning for a more authentic, worship centered Christianity rooted in history and extending to the Apostles. And considering how alive and well the JW are operating in Greece and other Orthodox countries, I promise you, they know who the Orthodox are! They get all sorts of news from the Watchtower magazine regarding their missionary activities around the world.
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« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2010, 01:49:54 AM »

There is a saying out there: Better to attract flies by honey than by vinegar. Perhaps it would do you well to learn it.

What?  Out where?
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« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2010, 09:41:47 AM »


I was given a small booklet that I've skimmed and it appears that they recognize Jesus as the 'First Creation'... even existing before the creation of the world. I don't know if my co-worker believes that as he seems a bit more 'islamic' in his views of Jesus as being simply a man/prophet. I just thought if he understood the Logos as the animating principle pervading the Universe that he might be a little more generous with interpreting it as a person within the actual Godhead and not simply 'a god'... I'm not sure what that actually means. So do they teach that there are other God's besides God?

JWs do not consider Jesus a mere prophet and messenger. Unlike Islam, they designate Him as the Son of God (although their interpretation of this phrase is different from ours, being based on the notion of adoption). They teach that Logos is the FIRST creature created DIRECTLY by God and that it was used as an agent by God in the creation of everything else. I read somewhere that they considered Jesus an angelic being (archangel Michael).

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« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2010, 12:08:01 PM »


I was given a small booklet that I've skimmed and it appears that they recognize Jesus as the 'First Creation'... even existing before the creation of the world. I don't know if my co-worker believes that as he seems a bit more 'islamic' in his views of Jesus as being simply a man/prophet. I just thought if he understood the Logos as the animating principle pervading the Universe that he might be a little more generous with interpreting it as a person within the actual Godhead and not simply 'a god'... I'm not sure what that actually means. So do they teach that there are other God's besides God?

JWs do not consider Jesus a mere prophet and messenger. Unlike Islam, they designate Him as the Son of God (although their interpretation of this phrase is different from ours, being based on the notion of adoption). They teach that Logos is the FIRST creature created DIRECTLY by God and that it was used as an agent by God in the creation of everything else. I read somewhere that they considered Jesus an angelic being (archangel Michael).



Yes, very true.

http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/jehovwit/index.html

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« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2010, 06:53:29 PM »

Well, we had discussions after work for a couple of days and we seem to be at a standstill. Neither one of us look like we'll yield on our position. I brought my Ignatius Catholic Study Bible - New Testament Edition RSV-CE2 to point out some thing but we haven't really gone there yet. He's pretty convinced that the early Christian Church apostatized itself at some point and really doesn't want to hear anything about the early Church Fathers or the Councils.
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« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2010, 07:21:15 PM »

Well, we had discussions after work for a couple of days and we seem to be at a standstill. Neither one of us look like we'll yield on our position. I brought my Ignatius Catholic Study Bible - New Testament Edition RSV-CE2 to point out some thing but we haven't really gone there yet. He's pretty convinced that the early Christian Church apostatized itself at some point and really doesn't want to hear anything about the early Church Fathers or the Councils.
And this precisely the point about the JWs. Before 1870 there is no point in history that there is anything similar to them. It's not even correct to call them Arians. Their beliefs owe nothing at all to traditional Christianity although a recent Watchtower article seemed to approve of traditional Quakerism. I don't think they looked too closely at Quaker beliefs! I get the feeling they want some historical verification for their beliefs. You can't debate these matters since most people walk away from debate and the 'foot soldier' JWs seem to assume a degree of ignorance about the bible etc on the part of those they're preaching to that is quite insulting.
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« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2011, 07:49:31 PM »

I have a neighbor who is waiting to catch me outside to talk to me about Jesus not being an equal part of the trinity.  Or perhaps not being God at all, I am not sure.  They were quoting Philippians Chapter 2 about Jesus not being equal (in there version of the bible).
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« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2011, 08:01:44 PM »

One thing that really freaks out the JWs is the Cross. Coincidence?  Wink
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« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2011, 08:06:29 PM »

One thing that really freaks out the JWs is the Cross. Coincidence?  Wink


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