OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 26, 2014, 10:04:00 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Got a SDA trying to convert me.  (Read 2039 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« on: December 23, 2010, 06:17:14 AM »

LOL at the thread title I know. He sent me an email. What's the Orthodox take on this?

Quote
FIrst and foremost is we are Christian, Protestant, Adventists.

One aspect brought to the forefront by other denominations that hold contention with SDAs is the belief in the 10 Commandments. We believe that no where is ANY command done away with, especially the 4th. If 1 command is worthy of "keeping", ALL are worthy of keeping (as best a sinner can through the Spirit...not as a means to salvation, but BECAUSE we are saved)

Another is what is commonly called, "The State of the Dead". We believe and teach as Jesus taught, that the dead know nothing, the dead are sleeping, the dead are simply that...dead. When one dies, his/her breath of life leaves (if you will), the "spirit" goes back to God which gave it when breathed into the nostrils of Adam...and the body, given enough time, returns to the dust never to know anything until Christ calls the dead person forth, as he did Lazarus, at the 2nd coming. There are no disembodied spirits of actual people in heaven (with the possible exception of a few, Enoch, Elijah, Moses...)

SDAs do have a sore spot...of which, to my embarassment, is promoted a lot more than I would like, but at the same time, is not promoted by many also. That would be the "prophetess" Ellen G. White. Many have sadly raised her and her writings up as almost equal, if not equal in some cases, to scripture. I acknowledge this blunder on our part as a whole, but deny and avoid her writings as such, as do a vast majority of SDAs. It is the weakness of those "in charge" that have not had the balls, excuse the saying, to do as they have known, and is recorded, knowing their mistake in doing so since at least 1919.

Another point is SDAs traditionally hold to the belief that hell is temporary and not unending. All that go to hell will burn, but only as long as it takes to burn up. Hell does end. I think the term is believing in anhilationism. We believe just as the Bible teaches. The wages of sin is death...not perpetual burning in agony as some might teach.

I can't think of anything else. I think those are the main points. Oh! Maybe one more. We do not hold to a belief in a Secret Rapture. That the "saved" are transported from here to heaven before the tribulation, but rather ALL go through the tribulation and must "endure" and that all will be taken to heaven at Christ's 2nd coming, not sooner.

I think those are the main points.
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2010, 06:31:25 AM »

What little i learned From this forum...
The Scripture addresses the flesh when the spirit leaves,  the flesh doesn't know anything it's dead  if it was still in the body the body would be walking talking eating , it would be alive...
To be absent from the body is to be present with lord..
there is no rapture,for the good, everyone alive at the time of the tribulation will be
tested by it..
Seperation from God for sinners not sure if its forever....Good and bad are in his presents ,good bask in glory , bad ones, thou there , it pains them since they rejected God ,so they want  to flee from his presents ,but where can one flee too...

« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 07:01:11 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2010, 08:33:15 AM »

LOL at the thread title I know. He sent me an email. What's the Orthodox take on this?

Quote
FIrst and foremost is we are Christian, Protestant, Adventists.

One aspect brought to the forefront by other denominations that hold contention with SDAs is the belief in the 10 Commandments. We believe that no where is ANY command done away with, especially the 4th. If 1 command is worthy of "keeping", ALL are worthy of keeping (as best a sinner can through the Spirit...not as a means to salvation, but BECAUSE we are saved)

Another is what is commonly called, "The State of the Dead". We believe and teach as Jesus taught, that the dead know nothing, the dead are sleeping, the dead are simply that...dead. When one dies, his/her breath of life leaves (if you will), the "spirit" goes back to God which gave it when breathed into the nostrils of Adam...and the body, given enough time, returns to the dust never to know anything until Christ calls the dead person forth, as he did Lazarus, at the 2nd coming. There are no disembodied spirits of actual people in heaven (with the possible exception of a few, Enoch, Elijah, Moses...)

SDAs do have a sore spot...of which, to my embarassment, is promoted a lot more than I would like, but at the same time, is not promoted by many also. That would be the "prophetess" Ellen G. White. Many have sadly raised her and her writings up as almost equal, if not equal in some cases, to scripture. I acknowledge this blunder on our part as a whole, but deny and avoid her writings as such, as do a vast majority of SDAs. It is the weakness of those "in charge" that have not had the balls, excuse the saying, to do as they have known, and is recorded, knowing their mistake in doing so since at least 1919.

Another point is SDAs traditionally hold to the belief that hell is temporary and not unending. All that go to hell will burn, but only as long as it takes to burn up. Hell does end. I think the term is believing in anhilationism. We believe just as the Bible teaches. The wages of sin is death...not perpetual burning in agony as some might teach.

I can't think of anything else. I think those are the main points. Oh! Maybe one more. We do not hold to a belief in a Secret Rapture. That the "saved" are transported from here to heaven before the tribulation, but rather ALL go through the tribulation and must "endure" and that all will be taken to heaven at Christ's 2nd coming, not sooner.

I think those are the main points.
Not much, as none of these "teachings" go back more than a century and a half and contradict what the Orthodox can demonstrate the Church has been teaching since the time of Christ and the Apostles until now. A problem, given, as the email admits, they put their own tradition of their "prophetess" on a par with scriipture, while claiming to be "sola scriptura."  Its origin in the failed Millerite movement also should tell us all we need to know.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2010, 07:49:24 PM »

LOL at the thread title I know. He sent me an email. What's the Orthodox take on this?

Quote
FIrst and foremost is we are Christian, Protestant, Adventists.

One aspect brought to the forefront by other denominations that hold contention with SDAs is the belief in the 10 Commandments. We believe that no where is ANY command done away with, especially the 4th. If 1 command is worthy of "keeping", ALL are worthy of keeping (as best a sinner can through the Spirit...not as a means to salvation, but BECAUSE we are saved)

Another is what is commonly called, "The State of the Dead". We believe and teach as Jesus taught, that the dead know nothing, the dead are sleeping, the dead are simply that...dead. When one dies, his/her breath of life leaves (if you will), the "spirit" goes back to God which gave it when breathed into the nostrils of Adam...and the body, given enough time, returns to the dust never to know anything until Christ calls the dead person forth, as he did Lazarus, at the 2nd coming. There are no disembodied spirits of actual people in heaven (with the possible exception of a few, Enoch, Elijah, Moses...)

SDAs do have a sore spot...of which, to my embarassment, is promoted a lot more than I would like, but at the same time, is not promoted by many also. That would be the "prophetess" Ellen G. White. Many have sadly raised her and her writings up as almost equal, if not equal in some cases, to scripture. I acknowledge this blunder on our part as a whole, but deny and avoid her writings as such, as do a vast majority of SDAs. It is the weakness of those "in charge" that have not had the balls, excuse the saying, to do as they have known, and is recorded, knowing their mistake in doing so since at least 1919.

Another point is SDAs traditionally hold to the belief that hell is temporary and not unending. All that go to hell will burn, but only as long as it takes to burn up. Hell does end. I think the term is believing in anhilationism. We believe just as the Bible teaches. The wages of sin is death...not perpetual burning in agony as some might teach.

I can't think of anything else. I think those are the main points. Oh! Maybe one more. We do not hold to a belief in a Secret Rapture. That the "saved" are transported from here to heaven before the tribulation, but rather ALL go through the tribulation and must "endure" and that all will be taken to heaven at Christ's 2nd coming, not sooner.

I think those are the main points.
Not much, as none of these "teachings" go back more than a century and a half and contradict what the Orthodox can demonstrate the Church has been teaching since the time of Christ and the Apostles until now. A problem, given, as the email admits, they put their own tradition of their "prophetess" on a par with scriipture, while claiming to be "sola scriptura."  Its origin in the failed Millerite movement also should tell us all we need to know.
Which, In your opinion, of the mentioned is based on the "prophetess"? Each has it's basis on scripture and scripture alone.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2010, 11:31:54 PM »

LOL at the thread title I know. He sent me an email. What's the Orthodox take on this?

Quote
FIrst and foremost is we are Christian, Protestant, Adventists.

One aspect brought to the forefront by other denominations that hold contention with SDAs is the belief in the 10 Commandments. We believe that no where is ANY command done away with, especially the 4th. If 1 command is worthy of "keeping", ALL are worthy of keeping (as best a sinner can through the Spirit...not as a means to salvation, but BECAUSE we are saved)

Another is what is commonly called, "The State of the Dead". We believe and teach as Jesus taught, that the dead know nothing, the dead are sleeping, the dead are simply that...dead. When one dies, his/her breath of life leaves (if you will), the "spirit" goes back to God which gave it when breathed into the nostrils of Adam...and the body, given enough time, returns to the dust never to know anything until Christ calls the dead person forth, as he did Lazarus, at the 2nd coming. There are no disembodied spirits of actual people in heaven (with the possible exception of a few, Enoch, Elijah, Moses...)

SDAs do have a sore spot...of which, to my embarassment, is promoted a lot more than I would like, but at the same time, is not promoted by many also. That would be the "prophetess" Ellen G. White. Many have sadly raised her and her writings up as almost equal, if not equal in some cases, to scripture. I acknowledge this blunder on our part as a whole, but deny and avoid her writings as such, as do a vast majority of SDAs. It is the weakness of those "in charge" that have not had the balls, excuse the saying, to do as they have known, and is recorded, knowing their mistake in doing so since at least 1919.

Another point is SDAs traditionally hold to the belief that hell is temporary and not unending. All that go to hell will burn, but only as long as it takes to burn up. Hell does end. I think the term is believing in anhilationism. We believe just as the Bible teaches. The wages of sin is death...not perpetual burning in agony as some might teach.

I can't think of anything else. I think those are the main points. Oh! Maybe one more. We do not hold to a belief in a Secret Rapture. That the "saved" are transported from here to heaven before the tribulation, but rather ALL go through the tribulation and must "endure" and that all will be taken to heaven at Christ's 2nd coming, not sooner.

I think those are the main points.
Not much, as none of these "teachings" go back more than a century and a half and contradict what the Orthodox can demonstrate the Church has been teaching since the time of Christ and the Apostles until now. A problem, given, as the email admits, they put their own tradition of their "prophetess" on a par with scriipture, while claiming to be "sola scriptura."  Its origin in the failed Millerite movement also should tell us all we need to know.
Which, In your opinion, of the mentioned is based on the "prophetess"? Each has it's basis on scripture and scripture alone.
So they claim. Such claims, however, do not withstand scrutiny.

I know the prophetess only through the SDA's, as I was dealing with them, not her, and the Scripture and Tradition (of the Apostles, not the prophetess) is sufficient to refute their views.

Just to skim through:

We uphold the X Commandments: they claim that we do not because we meet as our main day on Sunday, and not Saturday.  The Law Giver (Ex. 20:10, Deut. 5:14) made man stated that the Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath (Mat. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5), and "again He set a certain day...another day..." Pascha, the Eighth day of creation, the first day of the new creation (Heb. 4:1-11).

We would agree that keeping commandments are not a matter of earning salvation, but acting in accord with the redeemed nature.

According to the Bible, Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven, so they are not disembodied spirits. They will return, it is believed, right before the Second Coming (Rev. 11:3-12)

Christ taught that He was the God of the living, not the dead (Luke 20:38), and He told parables, such as the rich man and Lazarus, where the dead are quite conscious.  At the transfiguration he spoke with Moses, who died over a thousand years before, and after the Crucifixion He descended to hell and preached to the spirits there (I Peter 3:19-20, 4:6; Eph. 4:8-10 as fulfillment of Ps. 67/68:18). And the souls of the martyrs cry out in heaven (Rev. 6:9-10).

As for the preaching of the prophetess and Miller, as Christ warned "by their fruits you will know them."

The Bible, including Christ's Gospel, says "everlasting fire."

We don't speculate too much on the last things, for the simple reason that whatever you should be doing if tommorrow was the Last Day, you should be doing now anyway.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2010, 01:34:50 AM »

We uphold the X Commandments: they claim that we do not because we meet as our main day on Sunday, and not Saturday.  The Law Giver (Ex. 20:10, Deut. 5:14) made man stated that the Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath (Mat. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5), and "again He set a certain day...another day..." Pascha, the Eighth day of creation, the first day of the new creation (Heb. 4:1-11).
I don't think so. The word in the Greek for Today, is not pascha, but in fact is Semeron. It hardly states the day was changed to Easter Sunday. Sorry.

Quote
We would agree that keeping commandments are not a matter of earning salvation, but acting in accord with the redeemed nature.

According to the Bible, Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven, so they are not disembodied spirits. They will return, it is believed, right before the Second Coming (Rev. 11:3-12)
John 5:39 states that the Scriptures are the witnesses, the OT and the NT) and in Matthew 24:14 it is the Gospel that is the witness so when you combine the Scriptures and the Gospel, these are the two witnesses. Further, the two trees and the two lampstands are an allusion to the Old Temple where the olive oil fed the two lampstands that were tended continually from evening to morning (Exodus 35:14, Leviticus 24:4) and that David slso alludes to in Psalms 119:105 that "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path."

Quote
Christ taught that He was the God of the living, not the dead (Luke 20:38), and He told parables, such as the rich man and Lazarus, where the dead are quite conscious.
If you are going to give that parable as much weight on the dead being conscious, then you must also take it as fact that the dead in hell and the living in heaven can see each other quite readily...so the saved will be able to watch their loved ones suffer in agony in hell. Also, if the dead are conscious, why did Christ call Lazarus from the grave after "plainly told them, Lazarus is dead" (John 11:14)?
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,670


WWW
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2010, 01:54:49 AM »

We uphold the X Commandments: they claim that we do not because we meet as our main day on Sunday, and not Saturday.  The Law Giver (Ex. 20:10, Deut. 5:14) made man stated that the Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath (Mat. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5), and "again He set a certain day...another day..." Pascha, the Eighth day of creation, the first day of the new creation (Heb. 4:1-11).

I don't think so. The word in the Greek for Today, is not pascha, but in fact is Semeron. It hardly states the day was changed to Easter Sunday. Sorry.

Symbolism is of no importance to you - the first day of the new Convenant....

Quote from: Isa
According to the Bible, Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven, so they are not disembodied spirits. They will return, it is believed, right before the Second Coming (Rev. 11:3-12)
John 5:39 states that the Scriptures are the witnesses, the OT and the NT) and in Matthew 24:14 it is the Gospel that is the witness so when you combine the Scriptures and the Gospel, these are the two witnesses. Further, the two trees and the two lampstands are an allusion to the Old Temple where the olive oil fed the two lampstands that were tended continually from evening to morning (Exodus 35:14, Leviticus 24:4) and that David slso alludes to in Psalms 119:105 that "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path."

Eh, there are 4 witnesses described in John 5:31-47: God the Father (verses 32, 37 & 38), John the Baptist (verses 33-35), Jesus Himself (Verse 36) and the OT Scriptures (Verses 39-47) which are more than the 2 witnesses required according to the OT Jewish Tradition.

(Footnotes from page 1433 of the Orthodox Study Bible were used).

Quote
Christ taught that He was the God of the living, not the dead (Luke 20:38), and He told parables, such as the rich man and Lazarus, where the dead are quite conscious.
If you are going to give that parable as much weight on the dead being conscious, then you must also take it as fact that the dead in hell and the living in heaven can see each other quite readily...so the saved will be able to watch their loved ones suffer in agony in hell. Also, if the dead are conscious, why did Christ call Lazarus from the grave after "plainly told them, Lazarus is dead" (John 11:14)?

But we don't know how Lazarus rose from the dead ... that is a Mystery.   Wink

Although the SDAs believe that there will be a huge homecoming at the Second Coming, from their fundamental beliefs:

Quote
There's another great truth about friendship with God. It doesn't end in a cemetery, for God is planning a homecoming better than anything we can dream. A homecoming filled with angels, trumpets, Jesus, and resurrections! He's promised to bring His followers, those who have accepted the offer of His life-changing love, from this earth to His home, a place He calls heaven. A place where our friendship can go on growing forever, endlessly, joyfully!

source
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 02:17:57 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2010, 02:08:37 AM »

We uphold the X Commandments: they claim that we do not because we meet as our main day on Sunday, and not Saturday.  The Law Giver (Ex. 20:10, Deut. 5:14) made man stated that the Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath (Mat. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5), and "again He set a certain day...another day..." Pascha, the Eighth day of creation, the first day of the new creation (Heb. 4:1-11).
I don't think so. The word in the Greek for Today, is not pascha, but in fact is Semeron. It hardly states the day was changed to Easter Sunday. Sorry.

What? Easter(pascha) was on a Sunday (eighth day of the week) and His resurrection is the new creation. We honor this day as the new sabbath.

Quote
Quote
We would agree that keeping commandments are not a matter of earning salvation, but acting in accord with the redeemed nature.

According to the Bible, Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven, so they are not disembodied spirits. They will return, it is believed, right before the Second Coming (Rev. 11:3-12)
John 5:39 states that the Scriptures are the witnesses, the OT and the NT) and in Matthew 24:14 it is the Gospel that is the witness so when you combine the Scriptures and the Gospel, these are the two witnesses. Further, the two trees and the two lampstands are an allusion to the Old Temple where the olive oil fed the two lampstands that were tended continually from evening to morning (Exodus 35:14, Leviticus 24:4) and that David slso alludes to in Psalms 119:105 that "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path."

What?

Quote
Quote
Christ taught that He was the God of the living, not the dead (Luke 20:38), and He told parables, such as the rich man and Lazarus, where the dead are quite conscious.
If you are going to give that parable as much weight on the dead being conscious, then you must also take it as fact that the dead in hell and the living in heaven can see each other quite readily...so the saved will be able to watch their loved ones suffer in agony in hell.

Why must we accept that? Also, sheol/hades is different from heaven and hell. And also, your vision of hell is quite literal that not everyone shares.

Quote
Also, if the dead are conscious, why did Christ call Lazarus from the grave after "plainly told them, Lazarus is dead" (John 11:14)?

Because the people who told Jesus this were mortals who saw a dead man. The man(Jesus) who called to Lazarus is divine who's words are more powerful than death. Jesus calls forth to a deadman, and the deadman moves.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2010, 02:43:47 AM »

Is there anything in Church History where St Lazarus talks about his time spent in Hades?
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2011, 04:11:35 PM »

We uphold the X Commandments: they claim that we do not because we meet as our main day on Sunday, and not Saturday.  The Law Giver (Ex. 20:10, Deut. 5:14) made man stated that the Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath (Mat. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5), and "again He set a certain day...another day..." Pascha, the Eighth day of creation, the first day of the new creation (Heb. 4:1-11).
I don't think so. The word in the Greek for Today, is not pascha, but in fact is Semeron. It hardly states the day was changed to Easter Sunday. Sorry.

What? Easter(pascha) was on a Sunday (eighth day of the week) and His resurrection is the new creation. We honor this day as the new sabbath.

Quote
Quote
We would agree that keeping commandments are not a matter of earning salvation, but acting in accord with the redeemed nature.

According to the Bible, Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven, so they are not disembodied spirits. They will return, it is believed, right before the Second Coming (Rev. 11:3-12)
John 5:39 states that the Scriptures are the witnesses, the OT and the NT) and in Matthew 24:14 it is the Gospel that is the witness so when you combine the Scriptures and the Gospel, these are the two witnesses. Further, the two trees and the two lampstands are an allusion to the Old Temple where the olive oil fed the two lampstands that were tended continually from evening to morning (Exodus 35:14, Leviticus 24:4) and that David slso alludes to in Psalms 119:105 that "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path."

What?

Quote
Quote
Christ taught that He was the God of the living, not the dead (Luke 20:38), and He told parables, such as the rich man and Lazarus, where the dead are quite conscious.
If you are going to give that parable as much weight on the dead being conscious, then you must also take it as fact that the dead in hell and the living in heaven can see each other quite readily...so the saved will be able to watch their loved ones suffer in agony in hell.

Why must we accept that? Also, sheol/hades is different from heaven and hell. And also, your vision of hell is quite literal that not everyone shares.

Quote
Also, if the dead are conscious, why did Christ call Lazarus from the grave after "plainly told them, Lazarus is dead" (John 11:14)?

Because the people who told Jesus this were mortals who saw a dead man. The man(Jesus) who called to Lazarus is divine who's words are more powerful than death. Jesus calls forth to a deadman, and the deadman moves.

I sent your response over this is what he replied back with "It's obvious to me he really has no understanding of some easy concepts. I'll not attempt to change his mind. He asked, I gave him my position and scripture. We disagree. Here endeth the "debate"."
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2011, 09:13:33 PM »

Interesting. Instead of a refutation, he replies with "No, you're just stupid. So, I quit."

Well, I'm convinced.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Ninjaly Awesome
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catachumen
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 87



« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2011, 12:31:15 AM »

My wife is a former SDA. I consider many of them wonderful people but very deceived concerning their beliefs. One good way to refute an SDA is to quote Colossians 2:13-15 and Ephesians 2:14-16.

Ephesians 2
14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Colossians 2
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

SDA's are quite wrong when it comes to their views on the OT law. What will shock an SDA is to tell them that the entire law was nailed to the cross of Christ and that is why we are no longer under its demands. We are now under the law of Christ.
Logged

饥 渴 慕 义 的 人 有 福 了 ! 因 为 他 们 必 得 饱 足 。

馬 太 福 音 5:6
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2011, 12:36:04 PM »

Interesting. Instead of a refutation, he replies with "No, you're just stupid. So, I quit."

Well, I'm convinced.

Haha this is what he said
"(1) Where does Christ establish, as He did in the 10, the "new" sabbath being Sunday? Unless you have a direct word of God, as you do for the "first" (in your interpretation) holy Sabbath, you have nothing but hearsay and traditions of men. It's amazing how one could claim God to do that which God had said the antichrist would do. (Dan. 7:23-27, Rev. 13:5-8)

(2) You're "what?" simply says you're unwilling to look at the text provided and so you do exactly what you accuse me of in your statement above. You simply choose to insinuate it, I call a spade a spade.

(3) Why must you accept it? You don't. You asked, I gave why I believe.

(4) Then Jesus lied when he "told them plainly". Lazarus didn't come out of the grave, in grave clotes, with any tales of Heaven...and IF Lazarus was in heaven, wasn't that a better lesson to tell; that being that at death one goes directly to heaven? No, instead Jesus raised the man from the DEAD. Death is an enemy, not something to be sought after (Hosea 13:14, 1 Cor. 15:26, Rev 1:18, Rev. 22:12) Why did Jesus weep or why was He deeply moved? Read John 11:40-45. Pay special attn. to vs 40 and 45. The Glory of God is that God can bring a person back from the dead! It's NOT that when a person dies he/she goes to heaven. Simple.

I really have no inclination to argue these plain points. You are free to believe and interpret the way you see that best fits your lifestyle. I'll take God at His word, the only handwritten word from God and conform, as best a sinner can, not FOR salvation, but BECAUSE OF salvation, to His and not His to mine."
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2011, 05:35:55 PM »

Interesting. Instead of a refutation, he replies with "No, you're just stupid. So, I quit."

Well, I'm convinced.

Haha this is what he said
"(1) Where does Christ establish, as He did in the 10, the "new" sabbath being Sunday? Unless you have a direct word of God, as you do for the "first" (in your interpretation) holy Sabbath, you have nothing but hearsay and traditions of men. It's amazing how one could claim God to do that which God had said the antichrist would do. (Dan. 7:23-27, Rev. 13:5-8)

Well...

To make is short, I'll start with what the Sabbath actually means. The word "Sabbath" is derived from the Hebrew word Shabath, which literally means "rest" or "cessation." The day was intended as rest by the Jews to honor the creation of the universe by God "as God did" when he rested on the seventh day. In the strictest sense, it does not entail worship, but merely a cessation of everyday work to honor God.

Officially, the change of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday in Canon Law (by men) didn't happen until Sylvester I (Bishop of Rome from 314-335 AD) approved Constantine's 321 AD Edict of Sunday worship. This in itself, though made by man, signifies a start of two points or problems. That is (1) there was a Bishop of Rome with some level of primacy before 606 AD (which SDAs refute, and is an entire thread in and of itself) and (2) there was prior precedent to worship on Sunday.

So, assuming that Jesus created the Church, lets look at some Patristics and Church documents, since those documents are produced by the men who held the Truth. As St Irenaeus of Lyons (~225 AD) said:
Quote
The tradition of the apostles, made clear in all the world, can be clearly seen in every church by those who wish to behold the truth. We can enumerate those who were established by the apostles as bishops in the churches, and their successors down to our time, none of whom taught or thought of anything like their mad ideas. Even if the apostles had known of hidden mysteries, which they taught to the perfect secretly and apart from others, they would have landed them down especially to those to whom they were entrusting the churches themselves. For they certainly wished those whom they were leaving as their successors, handing over to them their own teaching position, to be perfect and irreproachable, since their sound conduct would be a great benefit [to the Church], and failure on their part the greatest calamity. ...
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/richardson/fathers.xi.i.iii.html

2 Thessalonians 2:14
Quote
[14] Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.


I'll start, in chronological order. Please, read them all.



The Didache - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (a pre-catechism of the Church written around 70-100 AD)
Quote
And when coming together on the Lord's own day, break bread and give thanks after confessing your transgressions. In that manner, your sacrifice will be pure. And do not let anyone coming with a quarrel against a brother join you until they get reconciled, in order that your sacrifice is not impure. For this has been spoken of by the Lord, "in every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great King," says the Lord, "and My name is wonderful among the nations."
http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Didache-text.html

Epistle to the Magnesians
St. Ignatius of Antioch (35-108 AD), 3rd Bishop of Antioch
Quote
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death—whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith,( Literally, “we have received to believe.”) and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master—how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead.(Matt. xxvii. 52.)

If, then, those who were conversant with the ancient Scriptures came to newness of hope, expecting the coming of Christ, as the Lord teaches us when He says, “If ye had believed Moses, ye would have believed Me, for he wrote of Me;”(John v. 46.) and again, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it, and was glad; for before Abraham was, I am;”(John viii. 56, 58.) how shall we be able to live without Him? The prophets were His servants, and foresaw Him by the Spirit, and waited for Him as their Teacher, and expected Him as their Lord and Saviour, saying, “He will come and save us.”(Isa. xxxv. 4.)  Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for “he that does not work, let him not eat.”(2 Thess. iii. 10.)  For say the [holy] oracles, “In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread.”(Gen. iii. 19.) But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them.(Reference is here made to well-known Jewish opinions and practices with respect to the Sabbath. The Talmud fixes 2000 cubits as the space lawful to be traversed. Philo (De Therap.) refers to the dancing, etc.)  And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]. Looking forward to this, the prophet declared, “To the end, for the eighth day,”(Ps. vi., Ps. xii. (inscrip.). [N.B.—The reference is to the title of these two psalms, as rendered by the LXX. Εἰς τὸ τέλος ὑπὲρ τῆς ὀγδόης.]) on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ, whom the children of perdition, the enemies of the Saviour, deny, “whose god is their belly, who mind earthly things,”(Phil. iii. 18, 19.)  who are “lovers of pleasure, and not lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.”(2 Tim. iii. 4).  These make merchandise of Christ, corrupting His word, and giving up Jesus to sale: they are corrupters of women, and covetous of other men’s possessions, swallowing up wealth insatiably; from whom may ye be delivered by the mercy of God through our Lord Jesus Christ!
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.iii.ix.html

The Stromata (202 AD)
by Clement of Alexandria (153–217 AD)
Quote
The Fourth Commandment.
(The text has τρίτος, but Sylburgius reads τέταρτος, the third being either omitted, or embraced in what is said of the second. The next mentioned is the fifth.)

And the fourth word is that which intimates that the world was created by God, and that He gave us the seventh day as a rest, on account of the trouble that there is in life. For God is incapable of weariness, and suffering, and want. But we who bear flesh need rest. The seventh day, therefore, is proclaimed a rest—abstraction from ills—preparing for the Primal Day,( i.e., Christ. [And the first day, or the Christian Sabbath.]) our true rest; which, in truth, is the first creation of light, in which all things are viewed and possessed. From this day the first wisdom and knowledge illuminate us. For the light of truth—a light true, casting no shadow, is the Spirit of God indivisibly divided to all, who are sanctified by faith, holding the place of a luminary, in order to the knowledge of real existences. By following Him, therefore, through our whole life, we become impassible; and this is to rest
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iv.vi.xvi.html

An Answer to the Jews (~200 AD)
Tertullian (160-220 AD)
Quote
Chapter IV.--Of the Observance of the Sabbath.

[1] It follows, accordingly, that, in so far as the abolition of carnal circumcision and of the old law is demonstrated as having been consummated at its specific times, so also the observance of the Sabbath is demonstrated to have been temporary.

For the Jews say, that from the beginning God sanctified the seventh day, by resting on it from all His works which He made; and that thence it was, likewise, that Moses said to the People: "Remember the day of the sabbaths, to sanctify it: every servile work ye shall not do therein, except what pertaineth unto life."62 [2] Whence we (Christians) understand that we still more ought to observe a sabbath from all "servile work"63 always, and not only every seventh day, but through all time. And through this arises the question for us, what sabbath God willed us to keep? For the Scriptures point to a sabbath eternal and a sabbath temporal. For Isaiah the prophet says, "Your sabbaths my soul hateth; "64 and in another place he says, "My sabbaths ye have profaned."65 [3] Whence we discern that the temporal sabbath is human, and the eternal sabbath is accounted divine; concerning which He predicts through Isaiah: "And there shall be," He says, "month after month, and day after day, and sabbath after sabbath; and all flesh shall come to adore in Jerusalem, saith the Lord; "66 [4] which we understand to have been fulfilled in the times of Christ, when "all flesh"--that is, every nation--"came to adore in Jerusalem" God the Father, through Jesus Christ His Son, as was predicted through the prophet: "Behold, proselytes through me shall go unto Thee."67 [5] Thus, therefore, before this temporal sabbath, there was withal an eternal sabbath foreshown and foretold; just as before the carnal circumcision there was withal a spiritual circumcision foreshown. [6] In short, let them teach us, as we have already premised, that Adam observed the sabbath; or that Abel, when offering to God a holy victim, pleased Him by a religious reverence for the sabbath; or that Enoch, when translated, had been a keeper of the sabbath; or that Noah the ark-builder observed, on account of the deluge, an immense sabbath; or that Abraham, in observance of the sabbath, offered Isaac his son; or that Melchizedek in his priesthood received the law of the sabbath.

[7] But the Jews are sure to say, that ever since this precept was given through Moses, the observance has been binding. Manifest accordingly it is, that the precept was not eternal nor spiritual, but temporary,68 which would one day cease. [8] In short, so true is it that it is not in the exemption from work of the sabbath--that is, of the seventh day--that the celebration of this solemnity is to consist, that Joshua the son of Nun, at the time that he was reducing the city Jericho by war. stated that he had received from God a precept to order the People that priests should carry the ark of the testament of God seven days, making the circuit of the city; and thus, when the seventh day's circuit had been performed, the walls of the city would spontaneously fall.69 [9] Which was so done; and when the space of the seventh day was finished, just as was predicted, down fell the walls of the city. Whence it is manifestly shown, that in the number of the seven days there intervened a sabbath-day. For seven days, whencesoever they may have commenced, must necessarily include within them a sabbath-day; on which day not only must the priests have worked, but the city must have been made a prey by the edge of the sword by all the people of Israel. [10] Nor is it doubtful that they "wrought servile work," when, in obedience to God's precept, they drave the preys of war. For in the times of the Maccabees, too, they did bravely in fighting on the sabbaths, and routed their foreign foes, and recalled the law of their fathers to the primitive style of life by fighting on the sabbaths.70 [11] Nor should I think it was any other law which they thus vindicated, than the one in which they remembered the existence of the prescript touching "the day of the sabbaths."71

Whence it is manifest that the force of such precepts was temporary, and respected the necessity of present circumstances; and that it was not with a view to its observance in perpetuity that God formerly gave them such a law.
http://tertullian.org/anf/anf03/anf03-19.htm#P2097_713713

The Teaching of the Apostles (The Didascalia) (~225 AD)
Quote
2.  The apostles further appointed:  On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the Holy Scriptures, and the oblation:( i.e., the Eucharist.—Tr.)  because on the first day of the week our Lord rose from the place of the dead and on the first day of the week He arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week He ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week He will appear at last with the angels of heaven.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.ix.vii.html

On the Creation of the World (~270-300 AD)
St Victorinus
Quote
This sixth day is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. For He perfected Adam, whom He made after His image and likeness. But for this reason He completed His works before He created angels and fashioned man, lest perchance they should falsely assert that they had been His helpers. On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God, or a fast. On the seventh day He rested from all His works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews, which Christ Himself, the Lord of the Sabbath, says by His prophets that “His soul hateth;”(Isa. i. 13, 14.) which Sabbath He in His body abolished, although, nevertheless, He had formerly Himself commanded Moses that circumcision should not pass over the eighth day, which day very frequently happens on the Sabbath, as we read written in the Gospel.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.vi.i.html

On the Acts of the Apostles, Homily XVIII (~350 AD)
St John Chrysostom
Quote
Is it a small thing, tell me, that thy wine-press should be blessed; a small thing, tell me, that of thy fruits God is the first to taste, and that the first fruits are there (with Him)? And then even for the peace of the laboring people this is profitable. Then as one whom they must respect, there will be the presbyter among them and this will contribute to the security of the estate. There will be constant prayers there through thee hymns and Communions through thee; the Oblation on each Lord’s Day.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf111.vi.xviii.html

To the Roman Citizens, Book XIII, Letter 1
Pope St Gregory I "the Great" (540-604 AD)
Quote
To the Roman Citizens.

Gregory, servant of the servants of God, to his most beloved sons the Roman citizens.

It has come to my ears that certain men of perverse spirit have sown among you some things that are wrong and opposed to the holy faith, so as to forbid any work being done on the Sabbath day. What else can I call these but preachers of Antichrist, who, when he comes, will cause the Sabbath day as well as the Lord's day to be kept free from all work. For, because he pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord's day to be had in reverence; and, because he compels the people to judaize that he may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the perfidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed.

For this which is said by the prophet, You shall bring in no burden through your gates on the Sabbath day Jeremiah 17:24, could be held to as long as it was lawful for the law to be observed according to the letter. But after that the grace of Almighty God, our Lord Jesus Christ has appeared, the commandments of the law which were spoken figuratively cannot be kept according to the letter. For, if any one says that this about the Sabbath is to be kept, he must needs say that carnal sacrifices are to be offered: he must say too that the commandment about the circumcision of the body is still to be retained. But let him hear the Apostle Paul saying in opposition to him, If you be circumcised, Christ profits you nothing Galatians 5:2.

...
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360213001.htm




If the Tradition of the Apostles, interlaced with scripture, passed down through the Church isn't enough, then here are some more bible verses, as well.



Colossians 2:16
Quote
" Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days"
and on to Galatians 4:1-26 and Romans 6:14)

Acts 20:7
Quote
[7] And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow: and he continued his speech until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:2
Quote
[2] On the first day of the week let every one of you put apart with himself, laying up what it shall well please him; that when I come, the collections be not then to be made.

Hebrews 4:8-10
Quote
[8] For if Jesus had given them rest, he would never have afterwards spoken of another day. [9] There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God. [10] For he that is entered into his rest, the same also hath rested from his works, as God did from his.

Hebrews 7:11-13
Quote
[11] If then perfection was by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchisedech, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? [12] For the priesthood being translated, it is necessary that a translation also be made of the law. [13] For he, of whom these things are spoken, is of another tribe, of which no one attended on the altar.
There is a new priesthood, and a new Law.

Revelation 1:9-10
Quote
[9] I John, your brother and your partner in tribulation, and in the kingdom, and patience in Christ Jesus, was in the island, which is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus. [10] I was in the spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
John recognizes the "Lord's Day".



I'll keep it short and stop there.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2011, 05:48:01 PM »

Continued...

(2) You're "what?" simply says you're unwilling to look at the text provided and so you do exactly what you accuse me of in your statement above. You simply choose to insinuate it, I call a spade a spade.

My what means I didn't understand what your point was. I was truly lost, but I think it may have been answered previously.

Quote from: Isa
According to the Bible, Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven, so they are not disembodied spirits. They will return, it is believed, right before the Second Coming (Rev. 11:3-12)
John 5:39 states that the Scriptures are the witnesses, the OT and the NT) and in Matthew 24:14 it is the Gospel that is the witness so when you combine the Scriptures and the Gospel, these are the two witnesses. Further, the two trees and the two lampstands are an allusion to the Old Temple where the olive oil fed the two lampstands that were tended continually from evening to morning (Exodus 35:14, Leviticus 24:4) and that David slso alludes to in Psalms 119:105 that "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path."

Eh, there are 4 witnesses described in John 5:31-47: God the Father (verses 32, 37 & 38), John the Baptist (verses 33-35), Jesus Himself (Verse 36) and the OT Scriptures (Verses 39-47) which are more than the 2 witnesses required according to the OT Jewish Tradition.

(Footnotes from page 1433 of the Orthodox Study Bible were used).


(3) Why must you accept it? You don't. You asked, I gave why I believe.

You wouldn't believe it, if you didn't think it was the Truth. If you are not able to solidify your belief, then it is a new religion all unto yourself.

(4) Then Jesus lied when he "told them plainly". Lazarus didn't come out of the grave, in grave clotes, with any tales of Heaven...and IF Lazarus was in heaven, wasn't that a better lesson to tell; that being that at death one goes directly to heaven? No, instead Jesus raised the man from the DEAD. Death is an enemy, not something to be sought after (Hosea 13:14, 1 Cor. 15:26, Rev 1:18, Rev. 22:12) Why did Jesus weep or why was He deeply moved? Read John 11:40-45. Pay special attn. to vs 40 and 45. The Glory of God is that God can bring a person back from the dead! It's NOT that when a person dies he/she goes to heaven. Simple.

-Jesus wept because he is fully human (and fully Divine), and he is not an emotionless robot.

-Death IS the enemy, and death was destroyed by Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. That doesn't mean people are absent from reality. If he had told a lesson about Heaven, would that have made the same impact than to perform a miracle causing a man to return to life from unavoidable death?

-The Glory of God is more magnificent than immortality (bringing back from the dead). He is the cause, the alpha and the omega, who is purpose and love. "Heaven" or "Hell" is more complex than being a good boy, it is restoring the relationship with God that we all lost in "the Fall".

I really have no inclination to argue these plain points. You are free to believe and interpret the way you see that best fits your lifestyle. I'll take God at His word, the only handwritten word from God and conform, as best a sinner can, not FOR salvation, but BECAUSE OF salvation, to His and not His to mine."

This is not a lifestyle inclination, this is about the Truth of Christ as has been taught to us through God Himself. You take your tradition from your faith, and so do I. The difference is yours came 1800 years too late, and mine is authentic.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 05:48:31 PM by Azurestone » Logged


I'm going to need this.
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2011, 06:39:44 PM »

His response:

"I'll make it even shorter for him.

I don't acknowledge the words of men, but simply the canon of scripture. He's making my point by citing proof aside from scripture...traditions of men. No word of Christ, God, the only BEING able to make a day holy.

Col. 2:16 - isn't it interesting you haven't put aside drinking or eating. Best for you to check the context of the text when it is clearly speaking of holy days, new moons, sabbaths (of which there were many aside from the SABBATH day.

Gal. 4 - again speaking of days, months, seasons, years. Not specifically speaking of the holy Sabbath. The people were zealous of law...no longer being under the CURSE of the law...that means that the law, while it curses the sinner, the curse of the law is lifted through Christ, being the perfect fulfillment of the law! The law is not a curse to the perfect human. The law points at sin (Rom. 7:7) See the context of chapter 4 with Gal. 5:4-6. What's the only thing that counts? Faith expressing itself through what? Oh...it says LOVE. See Romans 13:10. It seems one of us is not reading context, but interpreting traditions of men into the texts.

Romans 6:14-18 - read the whole point. The law is holy, righteous and good (Rom. 7:12) so if you are slaves to righteousness, then you are sons and daughters to obedience (vs 16) which leads to righteousness. (Rom. 7:22...I delight in God's law.)

See Romans 8:1-4 and onwards - There is no condemnation (that being the condmenation that the law says you and me are sinners since we have broken the law) The law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death (the law points at sin and condemns a sinner as a sinner and thus to death) The law is powerless to "to do", that is the law has no power to save a sinner. The law simply states what sin is and thus condemns those who sin. The law is weakened by the sinful nature. Christ came in the likeness of sinful man, but without the sinful nature so the law has no power of Him or anyone IN HIM. Christ condemed sin and became a sin offering. "in order that the righteous requirements of the law be fully met." would be met in us through Him. If they were righteous enough for Christ to write with His own hand, and die for so that we could be declared righteous through Christ, how do you remove that which is righteous without ONE WORD from the ONE that makes things or days holy and laws holy, righteous and good?

Acts 20:7 - a religious meeting does not a holy day make. That which proves too much, proves nothing.

1 Cor. 16:2 - So because Paul says to set money aside doing your personal finances on Sunday so that when he comes, which is not a specific day mind you, you're not scrambling to figure out what to give...that is your proof for a change in the holy day? LOL!!

Heb. 4:8-10 - Really? It's clear. "...the same also hath rested from his works" points at the 7th day of Creation and it also point at Christ's death whereby the only full day Christ "rested" in death was the Sabbath! Next.

Heb. 7:11-13 - I agree, Christ is the new Priest...but no where does it state a "new law"...and there is no word from God of such, but traditions of men. See Mark 7:8

Rev. 1:9-10 - LOL...I really feel for you here. What was the vision about? The Lord's day is the day of His return! The vision is clear that that is the context. Really?
See Isa. 13:6,9, Eze. 13:5, 30:3, Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31, 3:14, Amos 5:18,20, Ob. 1:15, Zep.1:7,14, Zec. 14:1, Mal. 4:5, Acts 2:20, 1Cor. 5:5, 2Cor. 1:14, 1Thess. 5:2, 2Thess. 2:2, 2Peter 3:10.

John surely recognizes the Lord's day. Problem for you is that his vision fits in context of all the above. No where else is the term "the Lord's day" used nor does it refer to the Sabbath or Sunday at all.

Let's be honest.

I'll keep it short and stop here for his sake."
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2011, 06:58:18 PM »

Evidence of Sola Scruptura's fallacy. History is to be denied, including the history of the Church, for the sake of one's interpretation. Yet, this understanding of the Bible, the Bible that was compiled by the very men who's interpretation he disregards, is the epitome of Relativism.

Men wrote those words? Some of them were written during the time of the Apostles if not within a single generation. This understanding requires denial that the Apostles taught anything to their flock.

2 Thessalonians 2:14
Quote
[14] Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

It is in this way there are over 20,000 protestant denominations. Without guidance from the Traditions of the Church passed down through it's bishops, anyone can claim anything, and support it with their interpretation of scripture.

How far back until the writings of men are the same faith as Christ? I gave dates. SDA, as other denominations, rely on the interpretations of their church. As I said before, we do the same thing. The only difference, is SDA is 1800 years too late.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2011, 07:47:49 PM »

This thread reminds me of the book "Thirsting for God" by Matthew Gallatin. He was raised Seventh Day Adventist who in college (a SDA college) became a Fundamentalist, then after being a Pastor in Charismatic churches for twenty years he converted to Orthodoxy. He has a podcast over at Ancient Faith Radio.

In his book, he says: (typed by hand from book)
     
Quote
Then one day in my second-year theology class, my rosy world was disturbed. We were studying the Adventist belief that Christians must observe the Levitical distinction between clean and unclean meats (Leviticus 11). At some point in our discussion, my favorite professor told us we needed to accept the fact that this doctrine "is very difficult to defend from a purely scriptural standpoint." There are just too many biblical passages, he observed that appear to refute it. When we looked carefully at those scriptures, I decided he was right. He advised us that as Adventist theologians, we should rather condemn meat-eating altogether. After all, he reminded us, vegetarianism is the more "pure" and more "spiritual" Adventist view.I can easily be argued as the diet God originally intended for mankind. The first chapter of Genesis makes it clear Adam and Eve were given only fruits, grains, and vegetables to eat.
     All this was hard for me to hear, especially since I wasn't a vegetarian! The filmstrips had taught me that according to the Bible, eating meat was okay, so long as it wasn't pork or shellfish. Now, this professor was telling me that the Book isn't crystal clear on that matter. I was troubled by this possibility. After all, I had come to bank on the biblical certainty of my doctrine. Believing what is right, I'd been taught, is what connects a person to Christ.
     The whole experience troubled and confused me. I dealt with it by convincing myself that the problem would disappear is I kept studying. Adventism was the truth, I was sure. Eventually, I'd be able to explain this apparent weakness in its theology. I wouldn't let a little issue like meat-eating derail my spiritual life.

...

On that particular Saturday morning, I was filled with resolve. Nagging little doubts that had been accumulating since that disturbing day in theology class could no longer be suppressed. I had taken the truth of my doctrine for granted. Now, I knew that I must test it.
   I devised a course of action. I would put away all my Adventist books and commentaries. Armed only with my King James Bible and my Strong's Concordance, I would reinvestigate my doctrines. There was a problem here, though. I knew only one way to interpret Scripture--the Adventist way. To challenge it, I needed a different doctrinal viewpoint with which to compare it. Of the non-Adventist preachers I'd heard on television and radio, the ones who made the best impression on me where those who referred o themselves as "fundamentalists." So I decided to weigh my Adventist theology against theirs, to see whose understanding actually squared better with the Scriptures.
     For five intense years, I followed this course. The doctrines that had been pillars of my Adventist faith one by one tottered and fell. What the fundamentalist Protestants taught seemed to me much simper, more sensible, more consistent, and above all, more reflective of the loving Christ who is revealed in the Gospels.
     These were extremely difficult years for me. I can't tell you how many nights I awoke in a cold sweat, shuddering in the awful fear that I might be committing apostasy. But there were other very special nights, nights with the Presence of Christ. Especially, there was the morning I was awakened at two o'clock by a command to go look at a passage of Scripture and "read what it does not say." Following that order freed me from all my questions and concerns about the necessity of seventh-day Sabbath worship.
     The Sabbath requirement was the last bastion of my Adventist faith. When it toppled in the light of the Scriptures, it was as if an infinite weight had been dawned for me. Surely now, nothing stood between me and the truth--between me and the rediscovery of an abiding, heartfelt awareness of Christ.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2011, 10:34:50 PM »

His response "One text. A text, out of context, is a pretext.
He is free to follow the traditions of the Church. I'll continue to follow, God's word. For that there is no argument. God said and wrote 10 items. If He is who He says He is, then they are everlasting. He chooses to remove one, while upholding the others. Jesus said He is the Lord of the Sabbath...He never said He was Lord of Sunday or Pasha or whatever you want to call it. The Sabbath is for MAN...not Man for the Sabbath. Since when is Jew spelled M-A-N? No Jew existed on the 7th day of Creation.

"As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

I call this dialogue ended."
Logged
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2011, 11:46:04 PM »

His response "One text. A text, out of context, is a pretext.

He got this much right.

Quote
He is free to follow the traditions of the Church. I'll continue to follow, God's word. For that there is no argument. God said and wrote 10 items. If He is who He says He is, then they are everlasting. He chooses to remove one, while upholding the others. Jesus said He is the Lord of the Sabbath...He never said He was Lord of Sunday or Pasha or whatever you want to call it. The Sabbath is for MAN...not Man for the Sabbath. Since when is Jew spelled M-A-N? No Jew existed on the 7th day of Creation.

"As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

I call this dialogue ended."

Unfortunately his context denies the historical reality of what has always been taught and believed.

On all days of the holy fast of Lent, except on the Sabbath, the Lord’s day and the holy day of the Annunciation, the Liturgy of the Presanctified is to be said.

Canon LII of the quinisext council gives me the impression that saturday is still the sabbath, which is distinct from the Lord's day on sunday. Worship is given precedence on sunday because of the commemoration of Christ's resurrection and victory over death.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2011, 11:48:47 PM »

Also during fasting seasons, whatever allowances that are made for sundays (wine and oil, or fish, depending on the season) are also made for saturday according to the St Tikhon's calendar.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2011, 03:06:25 AM »

His response "One text. A text, out of context, is a pretext.
He is free to follow the traditions of the Church. I'll continue to follow, God's word. For that there is no argument. God said and wrote 10 items. If He is who He says He is, then they are everlasting. He chooses to remove one, while upholding the others. Jesus said He is the Lord of the Sabbath...He never said He was Lord of Sunday or Pasha or whatever you want to call it. The Sabbath is for MAN...not Man for the Sabbath. Since when is Jew spelled M-A-N? No Jew existed on the 7th day of Creation.

"As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

I don't deny your faith or your devotion to God, but I do question your placement of trust. In my opinion, you follow the teachings of men (personal interpretation), and I follow the meaning as intended.

I call this dialogue ended."

*fingers in ears* "la, la, la, la!"  Cheesy Wink
Logged


I'm going to need this.
MyMapleStory
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Approaching Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: Will probably be Greek
Posts: 181


« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2011, 06:19:18 AM »

Was in a chat room with a bunch of them trying to say that christians should not gather on the sunday but instead on the saturday, and thats when I realised what the name actually meant, lol. But I didn't find them able to answer any point I brought up about the early church and as I see it, it's practice of replacing the Jewish sabbath with the christian Lord's day as its right. To which I got no real responce other than "Can't do it, against scripture" and etc. I suppose one of the funnier arguments was that it was pagan sun worship to gather on the sunday, of which was the more absurd thing they said. They have good intentions, but poor theology or grasp of church history.
Logged
TryingtoConvert
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Disbelief in your belief
Jurisdiction: All in your mind
Posts: 384



« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2011, 04:27:04 PM »

His response "One text. A text, out of context, is a pretext.
He is free to follow the traditions of the Church. I'll continue to follow, God's word. For that there is no argument. God said and wrote 10 items. If He is who He says He is, then they are everlasting. He chooses to remove one, while upholding the others. Jesus said He is the Lord of the Sabbath...He never said He was Lord of Sunday or Pasha or whatever you want to call it. The Sabbath is for MAN...not Man for the Sabbath. Since when is Jew spelled M-A-N? No Jew existed on the 7th day of Creation.

"As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

I don't deny your faith or your devotion to God, but I do question your placement of trust. In my opinion, you follow the teachings of men (personal interpretation), and I follow the meaning as intended.

I call this dialogue ended."

*fingers in ears* "la, la, la, la!"  Cheesy Wink

He says "Ok. I agree. I gave you scriptural support for my beliefs...you gave texts that out of context SEEM to indicate your position. In context, they don't. But you're right, I'm wrong.

Thanks for the wasted time. I'd rather chat with the Atheists now."
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2011, 05:06:57 PM »

His response "One text. A text, out of context, is a pretext.
He is free to follow the traditions of the Church. I'll continue to follow, God's word. For that there is no argument. God said and wrote 10 items. If He is who He says He is, then they are everlasting. He chooses to remove one, while upholding the others. Jesus said He is the Lord of the Sabbath...He never said He was Lord of Sunday or Pasha or whatever you want to call it. The Sabbath is for MAN...not Man for the Sabbath. Since when is Jew spelled M-A-N? No Jew existed on the 7th day of Creation.

"As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

I don't deny your faith or your devotion to God, but I do question your placement of trust. In my opinion, you follow the teachings of men (personal interpretation), and I follow the meaning as intended.

I call this dialogue ended."

*fingers in ears* "la, la, la, la!"  Cheesy Wink

He says "Ok. I agree. I gave you scriptural support for my beliefs...you gave texts that out of context SEEM to indicate your position. In context, they don't. But you're right, I'm wrong.

Thanks for the wasted time. I'd rather chat with the Atheists now."

Have fun.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 05:08:20 PM by Azurestone » Logged


I'm going to need this.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2011, 12:51:27 AM »

Man the pride in that SDA friend of yours is huge. Seriously we are not at a war between Christians and Atheists, but one of pride vs humility.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Ephraim.ID
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 19



« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2011, 02:56:56 PM »

I always find it interesting when one argues that their opponents ideas are "proof texts," but their own ideas are always in context.

There is much in SDA teaching that can be refuted, but it is usually of little to no benefit.  These discussions are seldom really about trying to understand one another or asking and answering questions, but firing off a list of "points" that one believes will prove their point.

Quite simply, we Orthodox hold to a whole set of ideals and teachings that differ from the ideals and teachings within the Adventist church.  We have Holy Tradition, which includes both the oral and written tradition.  We are not sola scriptura (I would argue no one is truly sola scriptura, that it is an abstract, but impractical, ideology).  Nor do we apologize for that, but rather uphold proudly the teachings of the Church over the last 2000 years - as we should.  An Adventist follows his/her own tradition.  We do not have the same basis or foundation - we do not agree on the sources from which we can discuss theology or doctrine.

I am personally much more comfortable with our Holy Tradition and its fruits (the lives of the Saints).  Adventist tradition is relatively new (only about 150 years old) and is ever-changing (teachings on Investigative Judgment, even the Trinity - SDA was not Trinitarian until the early 1900s, before then, they were closer to JW).
Logged
Tags: Millerite Seventh Day Adventist 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.162 seconds with 54 queries.