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Author Topic: Why not?  (Read 11127 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2003, 02:20:31 AM »

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Just because the postschism Latin West's spritituality was different doesn't mean it was "less."

It is not the fact that it is different why I think it is less.  I really like pre-schism Western spirituality.  I especially like the rule of Saint Benedict...I own a copy of it in Latin and English (I know Latin, ergo I'm a papal spy!!!!!! Tongue).  Basicly what I believe is that as the Latins fell away from Orthodoxy they slowly lost the heart of their former spirituality.  It didn't happen that some arbitrary day in 1054 the latins lost all grace or anything like that...  But when you look at the history of the RCC it is only recently that they have gone down a VERY accelerated rate of innovations.  So that is why even late in the ballgame they have had some real spiritual gems.  But it was only in as much as they hadn't departed from Orthodoxy that had their spiritual high points.

Quote
In substance, however, there were many post-schism Western saints who in their context lived an extraordinary life of piety and holiness: St Theresa of Avila and St John of the Cross are two examples that come to my mind......I think it would behoove you to examine the tradition of spirituality in the West to get an idea of it so that you don't live in false impressions.

It's a strawman to imply that I am ignorant of the Latin Post-Schism West as I was a practicing Roman Catholic before converting to Orthodoxy.  John of the Cross is without a doutb my favorite RC spiritual writter.  I have read the Dark Night of the Soul and the Ascent to Mount Carmel numerous times each so am very familar with his work.  The discalced Carmalites were definetly much better than the rest of the RC spiritually, but they are still not what Orthodoxy was.  Again it goes back to the writtings of Metropolitan Hierotheos - it just isn't the full cure of the soul.  

Far Eastern religions have the concepts of dispassion and in some ways a sound spirituality.  Does this make it gracefilled?

   
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« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2003, 06:43:47 AM »

Dear Joe T,

if I had known about the history between you and Serge I would have thought twice about stepping in the middle. Knowing a bit more of your background now, I can understand how you would find Serge's posts so abrasive where I do not, and I hope that Serge can be more discerning as to how his posts may be taken in the future.

One thing you said upset me. I know you spoke out of anger and probably do not really feel this way, but I'd like to address it any way. In your response to my "moderating" of your post you spoke in terms of this being "my" or "our" forum and excluded yourself. Please understand that this is not "my" forum. I am simply a member of this forum as you yourself are except that I have been asked to carry greater responsibilities. You and every other member make this forum what it is, not the mods and administrators, and I think this forum is made up of exceptional people. I edited your post because I thought it was out of order. I was definitely not singling you out personally, though I admit that it is hard not to take it personally, I've been on the receiving end myself on other forums so I know how it feels.

I have nothing but the highest regard for you and all the other members of this forum, and that's not something I can say about every forum I have been involved with. Please forgive me if I have given you a different impression.

In Christ,

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« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2003, 10:22:34 AM »

<surface>

Quote
if I had known about the history between you and Serge I would have thought twice about stepping in the middle.

What?

Such so-called 'history' has nothing to do with the question I asked and doesn't excuse Mr Thur's barging into this forum and using a dormant month-old thread to try to pick a fight with me personally. I thought this board was nearly in agreement on that.

Quote
Knowing a bit more of your background now, I can understand how you would find Serge's posts so abrasive where I do not

Mr Thur's family and ethnic history, and his feelings about me, have nothing really to do with the question I asked. As for his attempt to paint me as snobbish regarding the materially poor Ruthenians, I've already answered that objection:

You don't need to be rich to have an Orthodox-type monastery. AFAIK there were plenty of monasteries in Russia that weren't. (And in spite of occasional harassment by the tsars.) In Austria-Hungary? (No big bad Orthodox to blame there.) No rich ones, no poor ones. Again, why not?

Quote
and I hope that Serge can be more discerning as to how his posts may be taken in the future.

No, because I did nothing wrong.

Like I said, I asked a question online advance-guard BCs ask themselves. My guess from Mr Thur's reaction, filtering out the ad hominem, is that he too is aware of the problem I describe, like me and Linus7 he can't think of an answer or a solution and wrote what he wrote instead of something constructive.

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« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2003, 11:40:10 AM »

Prodromos,

I don't think it was wrong for you to get in the middle. Serge is right that despite the fact that there is a personal issue between him and JoeT, JoeT jumped out of the blue to attack Serge personally instead of responding. That's not kosher.

Don't worry, you've only been a moderator here for a few weeks and it's difficult to sort out some of these issues.  But a rule of thumb is, OCnet will not allow personal attacks,but asks that participants focus on the issues at stake.

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« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2003, 11:09:05 AM »

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there is a personal issue between him and JoeT

I have no personal issue with Mr Thur, whom I've never met and never will. The only 'personal issue' is this person online inexplicably hates me.

Quote
JoeT jumped out of the blue to attack Serge personally instead of responding. That's not kosher.

Thanks.
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« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2003, 12:15:03 PM »

Not that I'm trying to get in the middle of anything or attack anyone but....there is a difference between being a practicing Catholic and being a properly catechized RC.  

Speaking of examples of post-schism Western spirituality what about Scupoli's Spiritual Combat which was translated and edited by the East.  I've even heard that the Imitation of Christ was circulated amongst the Orthodox. As far as the Carmelites being better than most types of Western spirituality...I'd need to know if you were familiar with any other types of Western spirituality. What about the Liguorian, Salesian, Augustinian, Ignatian, etc.??

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« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2003, 01:45:57 PM »

My sincere apologies Serge.

I pretty much snuck away from this thread with my tail between my legs after making such an awful mess of things. I really should have apologised back then, I just didn't want to get myself into hotter water than I was already in.

I still consider myself very much a moderator in training and I hope you can forgive the gaffs I am bound to make. I really am very sorry for misjudging both of you.

John.

<sneaks away into the corner again>

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« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2003, 07:12:50 PM »

At the risk of showing how ignorant I really am.  what does "ABC" abbreviate?
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« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2003, 07:37:54 PM »

ABC is artificial birth control--condemned solidly by the Catholic Church, in line with the Apostles and the orthodox Fathers.

Too much nonsense has been written on this thread, by those who are ignorant of Catholicism, to turn it into a serious discussion.

I, LatinTrad, have edited this post.
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St. Stephen Harding, pray for us!

I'm sorry for getting upset, but  . . .


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« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2003, 07:56:31 PM »

[....those who are ignorant of Catholicism....I could just as easily ask questions like, "if Orthodoxy is the true Faith, how come you guys have never produced missionaries like we have?  Where is your St. Francis Xavier]

My brother, the charge of ignorance could easily be used against you for the above statement. Thanks to the great Orthodox missionaries, my sister will be able to attend an Orthodox church next time she goes to Tokyo. My Singaporean friend too, would be devoid of Orthodoxy if it weren't for the recent missionaries. Insted of getting caught up in these silly diatribes, let's laud both Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy for Christianizing the world. :-)
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« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2003, 08:04:51 PM »

Bravo! Byzantino.

St Francis Xavier and St Innocent of Alaska pray for us!


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« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2003, 09:28:08 PM »

Thanks LatinTrad,

Should have been obvious.
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« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2003, 04:23:49 AM »


By the way, I could just as easily ask questions like, "if Orthodoxy is the true Faith, how come you guys have never produced missionaries like we have?  Where is your St. Francis Xavier, or your St. Peter Claver?  Where is your St. Jean de Brebouff, or your St. Isaac Jogues?"  

LatinTrad

Ever heard, maybe, of SS. Cyril & Methodios? Not exactly minor I assure you. And of course it's difficult to mount  missionary efforts as a captive church - captive by heretics on both sides.
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« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2003, 05:11:50 AM »

Or Saint Kosmas Aitolos. <==click on link.

John.
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« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2003, 09:45:58 AM »

By the way, I could just as easily ask questions like, "if Orthodoxy is the true Faith, how come you guys have never produced missionaries like we have?  Where is your St. Francis Xavier, or your St. Peter Claver?  Where is your St. Jean de Brebouff, or your St. Isaac Jogues?"  

They were not able to develop OUTSIDE of the Church because the Church was under bondage! And this history of bondage is ONE of the reasons why I consider the Eastern Orthodox Church to BE the true Church of Christ.

I will just summarize my point below:

Think about it. Satan has dominion over this world and the Lord said that the gates of hell will come against the church.

What Christian church was for centuries under bondage, held down, and separated from the rest of the world... under the domination of Heretics? ONLY the Eastern Orthodox Church!

First the Western church excommunicates the Eastern Church, then the area that the Church operates under is overrun by heretics and under Moslem bondage, and finally when this Turkinsh bondage is being thrown off, the remaining arm comes under the domination of atheists in Russia. So during the period when communication among peoples explodes and travel becomes commonplace, the EO church is not able to take advantage of that (to witness) because it is under bondage.

Meanwhile, the Western RCC was allowed to run rampant persecuting and killing people all over the world to "bring them to Christ"

All you have to do is look subjectively at the past history and current actions of the RCC and and you will see the truth.
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« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2003, 01:50:47 PM »

I edited my above post.

The main point I was trying to make is that this whole vein of discussion is useless, because

1) It relies on vague generalizations and assertions.

2) It ignores theology and treats instead with vague apppearances and impressions.

TomS, you wrote: "Meanwhile, the Western RCC was allowed to run rampant persecuting and killing people all over the world to "bring them to Christ" "

This is a ridiculous statement.

The Catholic Church in Ireland endured centuries of bondage and persecution.  Our priests were slain, our faithful driven from the land, our very language outlawed.  

Plenty of bondage over here.

The 'Uniates" that everybody loves to hate also suffered liquidation, that they could have avoided by betraying their union with the Catholic Church.

Do you see what I mean about this vein of discussion?

I apologize for any offence given.

LatinTrad
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« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2003, 02:53:48 PM »

Tom, coming from a region where tremendous difficulties still persist, I'll obviously agree without hesitation that the Eastern Churches (this also includes the Orientals, Assyrians, and E.C.s who have had their lion's share of suffering) have been the primary bearers of the thorn of persecution and pain, the strastoterptsy par excellence.  Nontheless, that crack about the R.C. is uncalled for, and venting off steam in that manner can prove blasphemously insulting to the few Catholics on this board like myself, so please refrain from making such disparaging remarks.  Many Western missionaries selflessly braved harsh wilderness for strangers, and some even took pains to protect people from the ill designs of temporal powers.  At present, I live in a country marked by Jesuit achievements, and the act of contemplating the sacrifices made by priests in this treacherous and deadly environment (Montreal's harsh winter is probably nothing compared to the territories up north), without electricity, heaters, supermarkets and restaurants, and the certainty of not being attacked by hostile tribesmen, leaves one awestruck.

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« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2003, 04:05:04 PM »

The Catholic Church in Ireland endured centuries of bondage and persecution.  Our priests were slain, our faithful driven from the land, our very language outlawed.  

Plenty of bondage over here.

The 'Uniates" that everybody loves to hate also suffered liquidation, that they could have avoided by betraying their union with the Catholic Church.


The difference is that it was one Christian sect persecuting another Chrsitian sect.

It was a civil war within the western christian church. Who "won" that civil war was irrelevent, because Satan already had it under his influence.

Anyway, I will not post anymore on this subject.


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« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2003, 06:38:28 PM »

Tom, your reply doesn't make any sense and has no grounding in reality.

First you say that the Church that suffers from bondage is marked, by that bondage, as the true Church--and then you say that the western Church's bondage doesn't count because "Satan" already had it under his influence.  This reduces your entire argument to an a priori assumption.

I will pray for you--please pray for me too.

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« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2003, 07:02:58 PM »

Tom,

Could you cite some examples of the RCC running rampant persecuting and killing people the world over?  I'd just like to know.  Also what of the Orthodox persecution of the Bogomils in the 9th cent in the Balkans?  I also think that the Russians weren't too gentle when they colonized Siberia.  Maybe someone who knows Russian history a little better could clarify that.
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« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2003, 10:22:59 PM »

 Also what of the Orthodox persecution of the Bogomils in the 9th cent in the Balkans?  Carpo-Rusyn

The Bogomols rejected the sacraments and were heavily dualistic.  The heresy spread throughout Bulgaria as a sort of political movement and were in active rebellion against the Byzantine government.  It was attacked more out of political reasons than anything else.  In any event, the Byzantines did not need to try to hard to limit them; The Bogomols condemned marriage and pro-creation.

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« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2003, 11:06:46 PM »

Justinianus

I knew roughly the Bogomil theology.  I just raise the Bogomils because when some people go on about the RCC persecuting people they usually bring up the Cathars.  It still circulates around that the evil papists persecuted the poor Cathars who were just trying to get back to primitive Christianity.  The Cathar and Bogomil theology were very similar.

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« Reply #67 on: November 06, 2003, 01:37:11 AM »

I'm sure both carpo-rusyn and Justinianus already know this, but the Bogomils were the Bosnians. Same 'South Slavic' ethnicity and language as the Croats and the Serbs. There obviously was some affinity between this heresy and Islam because when the Turks took over the Bosnians enthusiastically became what they are today, Muslims.
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« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2003, 01:09:51 PM »

Are there any byzantine catholics on here besides me?
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« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2003, 01:12:10 PM »

Ive hurd a melkite Priest say we are the fullness of Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I dont believe it. But I am
converting to Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2003, 07:15:01 PM »

This forum leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Sad
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« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2003, 07:51:20 PM »

Maybe you've been drinking too much coffee, Caffeinator?  Wink j/k

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This forum leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Sad
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« Reply #72 on: December 19, 2003, 04:06:41 AM »

As someone who is English and lives in the British Isles, I don't think I can agree either that the Roman Catholic church went around persecuting and killing people.

In the religious revolution of the 16th/17th centuries many, many more Roman Catholics were executed, murdered, martyred for their faith, but the persecution which persisted for several hundreds of years against them was mostly politically derived. St Thomas More, a Roman Catholic I can easily consider a saint, was a loyal servant of the crown all of his life, and even a close friend of Henry VIII, but he was condemned to be hung till nearly dead, then his abdomen cut open and disembowelled while still alive, and then cut into pieces, not for any material heresy in any ones eyes, but because he refused to accept the Headship of Henry over the English Church.

In my own town the Roman Catholics were constantly thwarted when trying to open a church for the first time since the 16th century. Rich protestants kept buying up any property that they showed an interest in.

I may have some difficulties with some aspects of RC theology and praxis, but I'd rather have grown up in a Roman Catholic England than the semi-athiest one that developed after the religious revolution. Nearly all of the relics I have in my care have come from devout and faithful Roman Catholics in France.

PT

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« Reply #73 on: December 19, 2003, 04:08:36 AM »

Peter,

Who are they relics of?
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« Reply #74 on: December 19, 2003, 04:16:14 AM »

St Alban, St Martin, St Macglorios, St Cyril of Alexandria, a major relic of St Clement, a major relic of St Concord, St Veron, St Omer, St Patrick, St Peter, St Paul, St Maurice, St Tugdual and some others.

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« Reply #75 on: December 19, 2003, 04:42:43 AM »

Wow!
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« Reply #76 on: December 19, 2003, 02:02:03 PM »

I wish I could have even one.  :-";"xx
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« Reply #77 on: May 30, 2014, 10:34:20 AM »

Honestly, I don't have a good answer, Serge. I have a very good friend who is ByzCath, and he is a great guy and very faithful.

My impression is that the Roman Church is not very enthusiastic in its support of Byzantine Catholicism.

That makes the ByzCaths sort of the "red-headed stepchildren" of the RCC.

Maybe that's part of it.

Linus:

This link regarding St. Alexis Toth might be interesting to you.   Incidentally I absolutely  felt like the proverbial "red headed step child" while a eastern catholic for a short period of time.  Arch Bishop John Ireland was not a nice guy and I wonder how many are still left like him with the same attitude.

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http://oca.org/saints/lives/2014/05/07/101300-repose-of-st-alexis-toth-the-confessor-and-defender-of-orthodoxy
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« Reply #78 on: May 30, 2014, 10:37:08 AM »

Quote
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« Reply #79 on: May 30, 2014, 02:54:35 PM »

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Shocked Wink

But I think I've said it on another thread: Roman Catholic ecumenism really needs to back off and restart between itself and any of the Eastern Catholic parishes which get listed on the diocesean web site, and maybe a note about the pieroghi & kielbasa sale in a bulletin or two  Roll Eyes, and at least have pan-catholic Vespers or something Sunday nights once in a while.
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« Reply #80 on: June 25, 2014, 11:14:06 PM »

If Byzantine Catholicism is said by some to be the 'completion' or 'fulfilment' of Eastern Orthodoxy by being in the one true church under the Pope
...

The 'completion' or 'fulfilment' of Eastern Orthodoxy?

The 'completion' or 'fulfilment' of Eastern Orthodoxy?

Okay, granted this thread is almost 11 years old (and I know not whence it has returned) but that's still 10 years after the Balamand Agreement, and a few decades after Vatican II, so ...
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« Reply #81 on: June 25, 2014, 11:15:34 PM »

Most Holy Balamand Agreement, save us!
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« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2014, 12:29:58 AM »

not again!
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