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Author Topic: A VERY Ecumenical Patriarch  (Read 12650 times) Average Rating: 0
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ambrosemzv
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« on: April 18, 2004, 09:47:01 PM »

I translated the material below from the French Orthodox forum, Orthodoxie.  I find myself perplexed by His Holiness's enthusiasm for dialogue leading toward eventual unity with the Roman Catholic Church, given the state of the latter in the post-Vatican II environment.

I am also somewhat confused and troubled by His Holiness's endorsement of the terms, "two lungs of the Church" and "sister Churches," and his statements concerning the "tearing apart" of "the Body of Christ."  I was catechized that the Church has consistently held that the body of Christ is One, and always will be One, whether the Roman patriarch is in communion with that Body, or not.

You can find the original posting, in French, at http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodoxie/message/849.
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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2004, 09:50:31 PM »

From the site maintained by the Conference of Bishops of France (www.cef.fr ):

 1204 - 2004 : 800 years later

On the occasion of the tragic anniversary of the sack of Constantinople, April 13, 1204, Cardinal Philippe Barbarin, Archbishop of Lyon, and Mgr. Gerard Daucourt, Bishop of Nanterre and member of the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of the Unity of Christians, met on Tuesday, April 13, with Patriarch Bartholomew I.
 
"Noting the approach of the sad anniversary of the Sack of Constantinople, which took place on the Holy Day of Easter/Pascha, April 13, 1204, I wished to spend this day in the company of Patriarch Bartholomew I.  He courteously welcomed this wish, and invited me, along with Monsignor Gerard Daucourt, Bishop of Nanterre and member of the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of the Unity of Christians.

"Eight centuries after the tragic events that profoundly wounded relations between Christians of the East and West, we were able, by the mercy and pardoning grace of the Lord, acting in the Church, to live this day in brotherly love.

"This morning, we attended the Divine Liturgy celebrated by the Ecumenical Patriarch, and afterwards, we entered into conversation.  The sense of common membership in God’s family, and of our brotherhood in Christ, which confers “a single spirit,” allows us today, in spite of such grave offenses, to regard and love each other as brothers.

"This afternoon, we went to pray at the tombs of the Ecumenical Patriarchs, in particular, that of Patriarch Athenagoras I, who, with Pope Paul VI, opened with ferver this road of reconciliation at the time of the Second Vatican Council.

"We express our great gratitude to Patriarch Bartholomew I and to his close collaborators in the Church of Constantinople for this day, lived in interior silence and in affectionate and fraternal proximity to each other.  With them, we offer thanks to God, and we proclaim the Risen Christ.

"Alleluia!"

Philippe, Cardinal Barbarin
Archbishop of Lyon
Istanbul, April 13, 2004

 
ADDRESS BY HIS HOLINESS
ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH BARTHOLOMEW
ON THE OCCASION OF THE VISIT BY
HIS EMINENCE CARDINAL PHILIPPE BARBARIN
ARCHBISHOP OF LYON AND PRIMATE OF GAULE


Phanar, April13, 2004
 
Your Eminence, Your Excellency:
 
The grace of God has brought us together today in the Great Church of Christ to exchange, as tradition would have it, the paschal kiss, and to testify, once again, our common faith in the Resurrection of Christ.  Celebrating the foundation of our faith (I Cor. 15: 17) in this period of festivity and joy, our Church sings, in effect, “This is the day of Resurrection: Let us be illumined by the Feast.  Let us embrace one another.  Let us call brothers even those who hate us.  Let us forgive all, because of the Resurrection, and let us sing:  Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life.”

The spirit of reconciliation in the Resurrected One, which emanates from the Paschalia, thus incites us to labor with urgency for the reconciliation of our Churches, which bear the marks of the complicated history of a long and painful tearing apart.  He inspires us to deploy all our efforts to repair the torn mantle of the Body of Christ and, thus, to be obedient to the priestly prayer of our Lord and Savior:  “That they may be one, as we are one” (Jn. 17: 11).

Now, the unity of our Churches manifested itself in the past by fraternal ties woven from the first centuries of Christianity.  We may take the example of Saint Irenaeus, the disciple of Saint Polycarp of Smyrna, Irenaeus who came from Asia Minor to establish himself in Gaul to tend the Church in Lyon.  This historical fact encourages us to renew these ties, and we see in your arrival a sincere will to bring them to fruition.  It is for us a great joy to receive you, your Eminence, as Primate of the Gauls and successor to Saint Irenaeus of Lyon.  You are accompanied today by Mgr. Gerard Daucourt, Bishop of Nanterre, long a friend of our Patriarchate, who has long worked in Rome in the Pontifical Council for the Unity of Christians, of which he is still a collaborator, and who is president of the Council for Cultural Collaboration.  

Welcoming you in the Great Church of Christ on this Tuesday of Bright Week, we feel it important to emphasize your cordial gesture, which is marked by the spirit of reconciliation.  For, though illumined today by the feast of Resurrection, you wished to share with us the pain and sufferings of the eight-hundredth anniversary of the tragic taking of Constantinople by the Crusaders, on April 13th, 1204.  This event, which willl remain forever etched into the memory of the Byzantine people, aggravated the splitting of the mantle of the Body of Christ, which we are now attempting, with much effort, to sew back together, and inaugurated among the Orthodox a climate of distrust and suspicion toward the Catholic Church.

To be sure, we must admit that the 4th Crusade was an historical phenomenon of great complexity, upon which converge interests and concerns simultaneously religious, political and commercial.  To such noble sentiments as the hope of liberating Christian lands occupied by the “Infidels” was added a tragical event of the history of Christianity which would for centuries oppose the East and West:  the taking of Constantinople by the Crusaders and the founding of the Latin Empire.

Over the course of the following centuries, the Orthodox Churches held themselves for the most part on the defensive, whereas the Catholic Church deployed much effort to bring the “schismatic easterners” into union with Rome.  One of the principle forms this effort took was uniatism, which has always been severely judged by the Orthodox.

But, the spirit of reconciliation is stronger than hate.  Since the Vatican II Council, the Church of Rome recognizes that the path of union does not pass by way of uniatism, and seeks to recognize in the Orthodox Church a “Sister Church.”  Illumined by the Resurrection, Patriarch Athenagoras of blessed memory, our predecessor on the ecumenical throne, was eager to recognize in Pope Paul VI his brother, and to exchange with him, in 1964, the kiss of peace.  This cordial gesture, which remains today a memorable event, not only lifted the anathemas formerly promulgated between our Churches in 1054, but also re-sealed our two Churches, separated since the tragical event of 1204, in the spirit of reconciliation.  To this gesture, we may now add yours, which is marked by the same spirit.

Beloved brothers in Christ!  Illumined by the feast of Pascha, and filled with the spirit of reconciliation, we must all the same learn a lesson from history.  The eight-hundredth anniversary of the taking of Constantinople by the Crusaders must lead us carefully to measure each action we undertake today.

Asking you to labor and offer witness within your own Church, we welcome with gratitude and respect your cordial gesture so that the tragic events of the 4th Crusade need no longer be a stumbling block between our Churches, and not serve as a model for other, even more perilous actions.  France has always been a pioneer in collaborating and forging relationships between  our two sister Churches, and the presence of our Church, which labors by means of the Assembly of Orthodox Bishops as well as the Saint Sergius Institute, owes much to the support and fraternal welcome of the local Catholic Church.  We hope that this same climate may continue to illumine the Christians of your country in this common march toward unity.

Illumined by the Resurrection of Christ, let us as brothers labor together for reconciliation.  In this sense, we pray to the Resurrected Lord to heal the wounds of the Church, which is His Body.  As for us, let us embrace each other in the joy of the Resurrection.  Western Europe and Eastern Europe—the two lungs of Christianity, to take up the expression of Pope John Paul II—must stop looking upon each other as strangers.  The Europe of tomorrow must find inspiration in the Christian empire of the first centuries, and St. Irenaeus of Lyon gives us a good example of this.  Let us attempt to bear a common witness of Christianity in this Europe which is constructing itself, and which is preparing to welcome new members with a view to supporting our country, Turkey.

Let us forgive all because of the Resurrection, and let us sing the Resurrected Lord, for the unity of our Churches must not occur with haste, but by means of reinvigorating the work of theological dialogue, and by means of circumstances which Divine Providence will reveal to us.

Your Eminence, your Excellency:  Welcome to the center of the Great Church of Christ; on this historical date, marked by your cordial iniative, we assure you of our confidence in, and of our prayers for, the fruitful evolution of the dialogue between our Churches in quest of unity.  

« Last Edit: April 18, 2004, 10:19:24 PM by ambrosemzv » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2004, 10:03:59 AM »

Thanks for the work of translation, ambrose.

And you're right.

If that was not an endorsement of the "two lungs" theory, I don't know what is.
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2004, 10:27:17 AM »

Ugh!
There he goes again...
I guess I will have to again explain to Mrs. Aristokles about the coming $8-10 fax charge to the Phanar.  Is he so naive to think we laity will accept this---even we "Greeks" ?
Demetri
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2004, 01:42:59 PM »

From the site maintained by the Conference of Bishops of France (www.cef.fr ):

 
Quote
Let us forgive all because of the Resurrection, and let us sing the Resurrected Lord, for the unity of our Churches must not occur with haste, but by means of reinvigorating the work of theological dialogue, and by means of circumstances which Divine Providence will reveal to us.
Your Eminence, your Excellency:  Welcome to the center of the Great Church of Christ; on this historical date, marked by your cordial iniative, we assure you of our confidence in, and of our prayers for, the fruitful evolution of the dialogue between our Churches in quest of unity.  



IMO this is the key, I also find no problem with the statements.

I betcha I messed this quote thing up, I'm pc illiterate  Tongue.

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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2004, 08:04:32 PM »

Ugh!
There he goes again...
I guess I will have to again explain to Mrs. Aristokles about the coming $8-10 fax charge to the Phanar.  Is he so naive to think we laity will accept this---even we "Greeks" ?
Demetri

are you the authority in your church? I thought that it was the bishops?

You and the greeks, the romans, the coptics, etc  are not above Christ. You will do as he commands. If that is where he leads the church... then so be it.

and you and those that oppose it.......................will have to deal with it or join the protestants.
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2004, 08:14:46 PM »

Fortunately, "romanbyzantium", YOUR opinion or authority means nothing to me.

Demetri
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2004, 08:28:55 PM »

Fortunately, "romanbyzantium", YOUR opinion or authority means nothing to me.

Demetri

never said that it did. Demetri, you are a very angry person!!! pray about it.

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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2004, 08:49:01 PM »

are you the authority in your church? I thought that it was the bishops?

You and the greeks, the romans, the coptics, etc  are not above Christ. You will do as he commands. If that is where he leads the church... then so be it.

and you and those that oppose it.......................will have to deal with it or join the protestants.

You don't understand how the Orthodox Church works. The Orthodox Church is infallible. It is made up of clergy and laity which work together.

anastasios
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2004, 08:55:30 PM »

You don't understand how the Orthodox Church works. The Orthodox Church is infallible. It is made up of clergy and laity which work together.

anastasios

so lets say that almost all orthodox bishops want to reunite with the west as voted in a pan-orthodox couonicl but there is a lone bishop that refuses, what happens next?

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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2004, 09:26:48 PM »

so lets say that almost all orthodox bishops want to reunite with the west as voted in a pan-orthodox couonicl but there is a lone bishop that refuses, what happens next?



If it is the will of the Holy Spirit, then that lone Bishop (and his flock that still follows) is in schism.  If it is not, then that lone Bishop's flock is the Orthodox Church and everyone else are heterodox.  Pretty simple.

Again, you seem to approach this unity as a simple misunderstanding when it isn't.  All we Orthodox are saying is that we need to approach this with great caution and move slowly.
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2004, 09:41:13 PM »

If it is the will of the Holy Spirit, then that lone Bishop (and his flock that still follows) is in schism.  If it is not, then that lone Bishop's flock is the Orthodox Church and everyone else are heterodox.  Pretty simple.

Again, you seem to approach this unity as a simple misunderstanding when it isn't.  All we Orthodox are saying is that we need to approach this with great caution and move slowly.


1. How do you determine where the Holy spirit is? is it within the lone bishop of the bishops that voted to reunite?

2. I never said that it was a little misunderstanding. If unity happens, great. If unity does not happen, great, but not the prefer situation as commanded by christ.  Neverthless, my eyes are set on christ.

3. Don't take anything that I am saying or asking personally. It is not meant to be taken as such. All I am doing in asking and inquiring orthodoxy.
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2004, 09:48:02 PM »

I have always wondered about this.

Where is the Holy Spirit in the Orthodox Church? I mean where does His authority rest? Or I should say where is the infallible authority of the Orthodox Church resting? In Catholcism it is the Pope, or an Ecumenical Council with a Pope's approval. But where in Orthodoxy? Can Orthodoxy call an ecumenical council without a Pope or an Emperor? Perhaps you all may want to answer these questions in the thread I started in the Faith section yesterday on an Ecumenical council, which no one has responded to as of now...... Sad
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2004, 02:58:36 AM »

Christos Anesti!  Christ is Risen!

so lets say that almost all orthodox bishops want to reunite with the west as voted in a pan-orthodox council but there is a lone bishop that refuses, what happens next?

Been there, done that Smiley. Ask Saint Mark of Ephesus.

John.
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2004, 03:22:41 AM »

3. Don't take anything that I am saying or asking personally. It is not meant to be taken as such. All I am doing in asking and inquiring orthodoxy.

It may just be the language barrier, but you usually come off otherwise.  Try to always be careful and reread what you wrote before you click on submit.
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2004, 06:51:22 AM »

It may just be the language barrier, but you usually come off otherwise.  Try to always be careful and reread what you wrote before you click on submit.  

I thought about that very seriously. I have asked another catholic friend of mine and I asked him to read and give me his reaction to a couple of things that I have written, he saw nothing arrogant nor aggrassive in my questions.

He did say that in forums like this one and many others there is a tendecy to read everything from the perspective of " your side against my side" and everyone goes into a defensive mode. I believe that this is the problem.  You guys seee me as that Latin coming here and questioning us. and it doesn't help the situation when you guys are suspicious of us.

I have said it many times... I am not looking for converts nor to be converted. Don't take anything that I say seriously or as a threat to your faith cause it is not meant to be taken that way. All I am doing is learning about your faith.

So....................

Stand down from red alert
Lower shields
power down your phasers
power done photon torpedos

and turn activitate your

Universal translator
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2004, 10:17:36 AM »

I have always wondered about this.

Where is the Holy Spirit in the Orthodox Church? I mean where does His authority rest? Or I should say where is the infallible authority of the Orthodox Church resting? In Catholcism it is the Pope, or an Ecumenical Council with a Pope's approval. But where in Orthodoxy? Can Orthodoxy call an ecumenical council without a Pope or an Emperor? Perhaps you all may want to answer these questions in the thread I started in the Faith section yesterday on an Ecumenical council, which no one has responded to as of now...... Sad

This is the quintessentially Catholic question because it reflects the typically Catholic keen interest in understanding where, precisely, the buck stops.

Orthodoxy is simply different in this respect.  The Holy Spirit speaks through the Church.  We expect that He normally does so through the established hierarchy of the Church, under most circumstances, but we know that there are times when this has not been the case.  Councils have erred, even though they considered themselves to be ecumenical (e.g., the Robber Council of Ephesus), hierarchs have drifted into heresy and, as at Florence-Ferrara, even large swaths of the hierarchy can effectively separate themselves from the Church and the Holy Spirit despite the vestments that they wear and the orders to which they are ordained.  The simple answer is that we do not know of *any* external criterion by which to judge where the Holy Spirit definitively speaks ... while the hierarchical order is the normal course of things, our own history teaches us that sometimes the Holy Spirit, due to the failings of the human beings who are in the hierarchy, must preserve the infallibility of the Church through other means within the Church, and so we see the Holy Spirit's gift as being to the entire church, and we really don't know of any a priori, external, "litmus test" type approach that gurantees that whatever such and such body, council or hierarch says must needs be true, definitive and infallible.  We know of no such thing.

Brendan
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2004, 10:20:32 AM »

'1. How do you determine where the Holy spirit is? is it within the lone bishop of the bishops that voted to reunite?"

Based on external factors, you can't.  The Church knows where the Holy Spirit is by discerning, over time, which is in true accord with the Holy Tradition of the Church.  The result is that in the interim you may have schism (ie, a break in communion) or dissention within the Church while the discernment is taking place.

In the case of Florence, any dissention or split was short-lived, because even though St. Mark of Ephesos was the only Orthodox hierarch courageous enough to defy both the Pope and the Emperor in defense of the purity of the Orthodox faith, once the hierarchs returned to the East, one by one they began to rescind and recant their adherence to Florence, and even the Emperor himself could not publicly enforce the Florentine Union, being as it was a heretical abomination in the eyes of the Church.  The hierarchs acted improperly at Florence, and virtually *everyone* in the Orthodox Church knew it, and so what they did was ignored, repupdiated and rejected, and everyone believed (and still believes to this day) that while this rejection of the hierarchs' actions was exceptional, nevertheless it was clearly the will of the Holy Spirit.



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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2004, 10:28:31 AM »

I have always wondered about this.

Where is the Holy Spirit in the Orthodox Church? I mean where does His authority rest? Or I should say where is the infallible authority of the Orthodox Church resting? In Catholcism it is the Pope, or an Ecumenical Council with a Pope's approval.

So you are saying that the Holy Spirit was guiding the Pope when he decided that Galileo was wrong and that the Earth really is the center of the Universe? That the Holy Spirit was guiding the Pope when he either instigated, or at the least, approved of WESTERN Christians slaughtering (what was it, 13 times?),  hundreds of thousands of people in the Crusades in the name of Christianity? etc, etc, etc.....

Reading the histiory of your church, I would not be questioning how the Holy Spirit operates in the EO Churches, I would be asking how it operates in yours.
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2004, 12:44:12 PM »

So you are saying that the Holy Spirit was guiding the Pope when he decided that Galileo was wrong and that the Earth really is the center of the Universe? That the Holy Spirit was guiding the Pope when he either instigated, or at the least, approved of WESTERN Christians slaughtering (what was it, 13 times?),  hundreds of thousands of people in the Crusades in the name of Christianity? etc, etc, etc.....

Reading the histiory of your church, I would not be questioning how the Holy Spirit operates in the EO Churches, I would be asking how it operates in yours.


We Catholics don't think the Pope is always right in everything he does.  There is no doctrine that speaks to the infallibility of Papal action.  The Pope is infallible in defining faith and morals in limited circumstances.

There is a response to your statements regarding Catholic history, but I will refrain because I feel I am a guest here.  I will only say that mutual respect is a better method of dialogue than imputing collective guilt for things that nearly everyone living on earth now finds to be deplorable.
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2004, 04:57:17 PM »

are you the authority in your church? I thought that it was the bishops?

You and the greeks, the romans, the coptics, etc  are not above Christ. You will do as he commands. If that is where he leads the church... then so be it.

and you and those that oppose it.......................will have to deal with it or join the protestants.

Am I the only one getting tired of all the trolling coming out of Europe these days?  I think we've seen enough to know that this is not a case of authentic inquiry into Orthodoxy.  Personally, I intend henceforth completely to ignore these postings/come-ons.
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2004, 06:41:06 PM »

AMEN!
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2004, 07:35:54 PM »

Am I the only one getting tired of all the trolling coming out of Europe these days?  I think we've seen enough to know that this is not a case of authentic inquiry into Orthodoxy.  Personally, I intend henceforth completely to ignore these postings/come-ons.

ambrosemzv,

You are not alone.

Demetri
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2004, 08:07:09 PM »

ambrosemzv,

You are not alone.

Demetri

If you can't answer my questions nor care to answer then say so. Don't resort to childish name calling.  But you are doing a dis-service to your faith by not being available in explaining your faith to those that are asking questions. Frankly, it is not a good way to evangelize people.

If anyone asked me about catholcism, I would be there to answer any questions that they might have. Clear any misconceptions that they might have, etc. I don't lie around contributing to the problem by not taking the time to correct those that might have misconception about my faith.

I really don't know what to say anymore. I have said many times that I am not here to convert anyone but, only to learn about your faith and to answer a few questions that I have. and to clear-up any misconceptions that I might have about orthodoxy. But this has not happened, except the mods which have help me with some books suggestions and actual explanations.

The rest of those that have bothered to reply to my posts have responded in a most uncharitable manner my calling me names. This is most unfortunate.  This reminds me of my expereince with the jews. don't ever question a jew cause you will be branded an antisemite. Don't ever question the jewish faith, cause you will be branded an antisemite jew hater, etc....

If anyone walks away with a bad impression of orthodoxy that is the fault of those that refuse to defend it and explain it.
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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2004, 08:08:13 PM »

Am I the only one getting tired of all the trolling coming out of Europe these days?  I think we've seen enough to know that this is not a case of authentic inquiry into Orthodoxy.  Personally, I intend henceforth completely to ignore these postings/come-ons.

If you can't answer my questions then say so. Recommend a book that I could read. But stop the name calling. It is very infantil.

Show the charity that our hosts have shown. They have answer my questions very nicely. They haven't resorted to name calling.
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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2004, 11:07:58 PM »

:Stand down from red alert
Lower shields
power down your phasers
power done photon torpedos:

So you think you can take us in with that old Romulan trick? We know you will never rest until you have subjugated the entire galaxy to your evil Star Empire. We remember that time you wanted to negotiate with the Vulcans about reunification . . . . .

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« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2004, 10:45:09 PM »

So you are saying that the Holy Spirit was guiding the Pope when he decided that Galileo was wrong and that the Earth really is the center of the Universe? That the Holy Spirit was guiding the Pope when he either instigated, or at the least, approved of WESTERN Christians slaughtering (what was it, 13 times?),  hundreds of thousands of people in the Crusades in the name of Christianity? etc, etc, etc.....

Reading the histiory of your church, I would not be questioning how the Holy Spirit operates in the EO Churches, I would be asking how it operates in yours.


Er. Tom, do you have any idea how ignorant these questions are?

I tried to find a more diplomatic word than "ignorant," but it really seemed like the mot juste. If I have offended, forgive me, but I don't know what else to say.

Do you honestly think Catholics believe the Pope is infallible every time he sneezes? That's a common misconception among fundamentalist Protestants, but ISTM an Orthodox should know better.

I'm sorry if that seems abrasive, but OTOH you seem to feel you can insult our Faith with impunity (and with more zeal than knowledge, frankly). Ben merely asks a *question*--and you respond with insulting cracks about Catholicism.

Moreover, you're very misinformed about the Galileo incident. Let's just say that you seem to have bought into the typical anti-Catholic Galileo Myth. Bob Jones, call your office. :p

AMDG,

Diane, wondering if non-proselytizing diplomacy means that we Catholics have to sit here and take it when our Faith and Church are grossly misrepresented



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« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2004, 11:01:28 PM »

Thank you Diane!!!!

I did not see that post by Tom. I wish I would have, but I couldn't have put any any better than you did!

Tom seems to have brought a lot into Orthodoxy from Protestantism, inculding his grossly ignornant view on Papal Infallibilty and how it works.

My God the things that come from Tom, from this to his posts in the Immaculate Conception thread, I am seriously worring about Orthodoxy.

I don't mean to be harsh, just honest.
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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2004, 12:00:56 AM »

Diane,

If someone posts something obviously untrue*, such as some of the things Tom said above, you are free to correct him.

anastasios

* I say this without malice.  But anyone who thinks the Church condemned Galileo just because of his theories of the world hasn't read up on the whole story, for instance.  It's hard to find the truth when the secular world, which is very anti-Catholic, repeats continuously such mistruths.
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« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2004, 10:42:11 PM »

I am still shocked people think Papal Infallibilty works that way. It amazes me how ignorant people can be.
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« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2004, 09:30:49 PM »

Diane,

If someone posts something obviously untrue*, such as some of the things Tom said above, you are free to correct him.

anastasios

* I say this without malice.  But anyone who thinks the Church condemned Galileo just because of his theories of the world hasn't read up on the whole story, for instance.  It's hard to find the truth when the secular world, which is very anti-Catholic, repeats continuously such mistruths.


Anastasios,

This comment sparked my curiosity due to my own lack of knowledge surrounding the details/context of Galileo's condemnation.  What was the core reason why Galileo was condemned?  And why was this condemnation recently rescinded?  Like Tom, I too thought that he was condemned merely for advocating a heliocentric solar system.

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« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2004, 09:58:34 PM »

Unfortunately, I'm not sure where my copy of "Galileo's Daughter" is at the moment, but it is a most interesting book on the subject.  Both of his daughters were nuns and some letters survive between the father and one of the daughters.  Until I recall where the book is, I can tell you that Galileo didn't always suffer fools gladly.  He was opinionated and in some of his writings he let those who disagreed with him have it.  It was not a case of the RC hierarchy being anti-science.  The Pope and other high church men were part of a scientific society  (the "Lyncians" or Academy of the Lynxes)
Here is a page on him from the University of Cambridge:

http://www.hps.cam.ac.uk/starry/galileo.html

It's brief, but what comes out is that there were misunderstandings, rumours, powerful people who had strong opinions, patronage or the lack thereof.  There's alot more on it in the book I mentioned.

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« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2004, 10:58:49 PM »

My poor misguided Ben and other confused defenders of the schismatic, corrupted RCC.

You really don't get it do you? I understand about papal infallibility (how it does not have anything to do with a single specifi acts of a pope). That Galileo was caught up in political intrigue.

The whole Roman Catholic Church has been corrupted by the Evil One.

If this is not clear to you from the history of that den of vipers, then you are blind.
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« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2004, 11:21:17 PM »

My poor misguided Ben and other confused defenders of the schismatic, corrupted RCC.

You really don't get it do you? I understand about papal infallibility (how it does not have anything to do with a single specifi acts of a pope). That Galileo was caught up in political intrigue.

The whole Roman Catholic Church has been corrupted by the Evil One.

If this is not clear to you from the history of that den of vipers, then you are blind.


wow... I though that a change to an apostolic christian church would have change the protestant but I see that you carry alot of the protestant in you.

You need alot of prayers, fasting and ask God to forgive you and clean you. I have never seen an orthodox in your state.

btw, if you want to talk about being corrupted by the evil one... just look inside. cause what  comes out of your mouth does not come from christ. as a christian I must tell you that. christians don't talk like you do.

This goes for those catholics andprotestants that speak ill of other christians.

calling other christians names have never entered my mind. God forbid. cause oneday i will have to give account for all that I have done. persecuting another christians is persecuting christ.
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« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2004, 11:28:14 PM »

wow... I though that a change to an apostolic christian church would have change the protestant but I see that you carry alot of the protestant in you.

You need alot of prayers, fasting and ask God to forgive you and clean you. I have never seen an orthodox in your state.

Just so that a Moderator does not have to step in here -- this will be my final post on this thread.

I never gave ANY consideration to the RCC before I became Orthodox. It was never brought up when I was a Protestant that I can recall.

My views of the RCC have been formed based upon my reading of religious history SINCE I became Orthodox.

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« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2004, 06:54:10 PM »

My poor misguided Ben and other confused defenders of the schismatic, corrupted RCC.

You really don't get it do you? I understand about papal infallibility (how it does not have anything to do with a single specifi acts of a pope). That Galileo was caught up in political intrigue.

The whole Roman Catholic Church has been corrupted by the Evil One.

If this is not clear to you from the history of that den of vipers, then you are blind.


One of the things that convinced me to become Catholic was the consideration that any institution that made that many blunders and was not founded by God would have died off long ago.  Jesus' words "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" have application here.
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« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2004, 11:19:19 AM »

[My poor misguided Ben and other confused defenders of the schismatic, corrupted RCC.]

Tom, I realy don't think I am the misguided one here. Anyone who makes such prideful and hateful comments towards those looking into the Orthodox Church, truly can't be guided by God. I highly doubt, that you can dismiss every Roman Catholic layperson, Pope, theologian, and the thousands of great defenders of the Catholic Church, as nothing more than confused.

[You really don't get it do you? I understand about papal infallibility (how it does not have anything to do with a single specifi acts of a pope). That Galileo was caught up in political intrigue.]

As for Papal Infallibilty, I don't think you get it. You mocked the Catholic dogma in one of your earlier posts, by asking where was the Holy Spirit when the Pope disgareed with Galileo, or when he called for the crusades. If you understood Papal Infallibilty, you would know we only believe the Holy Father to be infallible when speaking ex cathedra. However, he is a sinful human and can be fallible in his opinions. The Pope could very well not have been guided by the Holy Spirit in calling the crusades, but that wouldn't effect the Catholic teaching on the Papacy on bit.

[The whole Roman Catholic Church has been corrupted by the Evil One.]

And you are spiritually advanced enough to declare this with such pride? Have you discussed such thoughts with your spiritual Father?

From my expirence, this opinion is not very comon amoung Orthodox priests, many of whom have encouraged me to pray in Catholic churches when I couldn't get to Divine Litrugy.

[If this is not clear to you from the history of that den of vipers, then you are blind.]

I may be blind, and if this is so, I accept this and ask God to have mercy upon me and guide me. But I don't think it is such a good idea to insult those interested in Orthodoxy in such a way. If I thought you equaled Orthodoxy, or that Orthodoxy equaled you, I would end my interest in Orthodoxy right away.
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« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2004, 11:34:18 AM »

I'm in agreement with Ben, though I believe that a lot of us Latins are not corrupted or controlled by the "darkside", no more then "other" brethern.

Spewing harsh condemnations towards unknown brethern is truly a sin in my eyes.

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« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2004, 06:24:26 PM »

[My poor misguided Ben and other confused defenders of the schismatic, corrupted RCC.]

Tom, I realy don't think I am the misguided one here. Anyone who makes such prideful and hateful comments towards those looking into the Orthodox Church, truly can't be guided by God. I highly doubt, that you can dismiss every Roman Catholic layperson, Pope, theologian, and the thousands of great defenders of the Catholic Church, as nothing more than confused.

[You really don't get it do you? I understand about papal infallibility (how it does not have anything to do with a single specifi acts of a pope). That Galileo was caught up in political intrigue.]

As for Papal Infallibilty, I don't think you get it. You mocked the Catholic dogma in one of your earlier posts, by asking where was the Holy Spirit when the Pope disgareed with Galileo, or when he called for the crusades. If you understood Papal Infallibilty, you would know we only believe the Holy Father to be infallible when speaking ex cathedra. However, he is a sinful human and can be fallible in his opinions. The Pope could very well not have been guided by the Holy Spirit in calling the crusades, but that wouldn't effect the Catholic teaching on the Papacy on bit.

[The whole Roman Catholic Church has been corrupted by the Evil One.]

And you are spiritually advanced enough to declare this with such pride? Have you discussed such thoughts with your spiritual Father?

From my expirence, this opinion is not very comon amoung Orthodox priests, many of whom have encouraged me to pray in Catholic churches when I couldn't get to Divine Litrugy.

[If this is not clear to you from the history of that den of vipers, then you are blind.]

I may be blind, and if this is so, I accept this and ask God to have mercy upon me and guide me. But I don't think it is such a good idea to insult those interested in Orthodoxy in such a way. If I thought you equaled Orthodoxy, or that Orthodoxy equaled you, I would end my interest in Orthodoxy right away.

what religious group does Tom's remark remind you of?
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« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2004, 05:39:42 PM »

I just left the byzcath.org Is the Ecumenical Patriarch making a power play? thread and have a few questions.

Is it safe here? What word is appropriate to use for those who are in the unia without offending them?

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin
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« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2004, 06:21:19 PM »

I just left the byzcath.org Is the Ecumenical Patriarch making a power play? thread and have a few questions.

Is it safe here? What word is appropriate to use for those who are in the unia without offending them?

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Brother Matthew,
Given that I know of no "uniates', only faithful who are in Catholic churches which are a product of the 'Unia', "Eastern Catholics" should suffice, with appropriate pre-apologies to Meliktes, Armenian Catholics, Maronites, Chaldeans, etal. who might find that uncomfortable.
I have been following that thread at Byzcath for a while but do not post there - we need to talk about it here.

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« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2004, 06:22:04 PM »

Matthew --

Yes it is safe here.

I would suggest Eastern Catholics or Eastern Rite Catholics ... accurate and non-offensive to Byzantine Rite folks who are in communion with Rome.

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« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2004, 06:47:54 PM »

[I would suggest Eastern Catholics or Eastern Rite Catholics ... accurate and non-offensive to Byzantine Rite folks who are in communion with Rome.]

Since many of us who are Orthodox and as such, and also consider  ourselves as 'Catholic' how about just "Eastern Christians In Communion With Rome".  That should be acceptable to all.

[I have been following that thread at Byzcath for a while but do not post there - we need to talk about it here.]

Since I am probably one of those who is 'blamed' for the controversary in the 'other' site when I took issue to a Greek Orthodox woman who claims she witness the Pope being commemorated at a Liturgy conducted at St Vlad's six years ago, I would be glad to discuss the issues that went on in that thread.  But I think all that can be said has been said over there.  Including the confirmation from St Vlad's that such a commemoration has ever taken past either in the past or present (which I already knew).

Of course, when erroneous statements are made in that 'other' site and proven wrong you are labelled as rude and a bully challenging them and proving them wrong.

If someone reopens the subject matter I will be glad to discuss it here.

Orthodoc (OrthoMan on the 'other' site)

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« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2004, 06:54:13 PM »

"Eastern Christians in Communion with Rome"

Hmmm, how about "Eastern Christian under Rome". The Eastern Catholics aren't just in communion with Rome, just as Roman Catholics they are totally subject to the Roman Pontiff.
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« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2004, 07:09:16 PM »

[Hmmm, how about "Eastern Christian under Rome". The Eastern Catholics aren't just in communion with Rome, just as Roman Catholics they are totally subject to the Roman Pontiff.]

Ben, I've been telling them that for years.  It's one of the main reasons they refer to me as mean spirited, rude, crude, and a bully.

You will get the standard -'We are a series of sui juris churches' in communion with Rome.  The part they just don't get is exactly what you are saying.... which is to be 'In Communion With Rome' also means to be under Romes authority.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2004, 07:19:13 PM »

Well any Eastern Catholic who studied Catholic dogma and doctrine and the history of their Churches, will see that they are under Rome, just as Roman Catholics are.

I am honestly sick of this "In Communion with Rome" or  "Orthodox in union with Rome" crap. Eastern Catholics are in total submission to the Roman Pontiff, and under the pain of excommunication they must accept any dogma or rule that the Roman Pontiff defines to be held by the whole Church.
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« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2004, 07:46:05 PM »

Ben,

I have a problem with your "crap" remark, I'm in the process of a rite change and your remark is not appreciated.I feel that when it becomes a yoke and Rome interferes many will return to the big "O".

Orthodoc I understand, he is very zealous in faith and states his feelings period, which I respect. But with the ladies maybe a different approach is required, but that is his business.

james
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« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2004, 07:52:32 PM »

I am sorry James but "Orthodox in union with Rome" is just plain crap. I am sorry I can't articulate myself better, but it just seems like the best word to use! I don't mean to offend you, but the fact remains that Eastern Catholics are totally subject to the Roman Pontiff, just as Roman Catholics are.
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« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2004, 08:11:43 PM »

Subjectivity to Rome is open to one's opinion and I respect opinions when shown consideration for others.

james
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« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2004, 08:16:10 PM »

Jakub,

When the Roman Pontiff speaks ex-cathedra on matters of faith and/or morals, every single Catholic must accept what he defines and declares, that is not open to ones opinion.

Eastern Catholics, like Roman Catholics must also accept Papal Supremacy, and the fact that before a Eastern Catholic priest is consencrated to the episcopacy Rome must first give its consent. The Roman Pontiff, if he wanted to, could abolish the Eastern rites, or force all Eastern Catholic priests to remain celibate, which has happened in the past.

The Pope has complete jurisdiction over the entire Church, and the includes Eastern rites.
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« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2004, 08:16:58 PM »

The one I would most trust to give me an accurate description of eastern catholicism would be an Eastern Catholic.
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« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2004, 08:19:33 PM »

Jack...

There are plenty of Eastern Catholics who think they are actually Eastern Orthodox Christians simply in union with Rome, and that they hold the same faith that the real Eastern Orthodox Churches do. Surely such an opinion is flawed and can't be trusted.

The best source to trust in this matter, is Catholic dogma, which clearly states the Pope has supreme jurisdiction over the entire Church, east and west.
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« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2004, 08:36:51 PM »

Ben,

Don't have the time nor care to mix words regarding "under Rome" presently.

james
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« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2004, 08:48:08 PM »

Whatever floats your boat. Smiley
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« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2004, 08:59:07 PM »

Ben,

My attention is the Lakers & Pistons game, we can trade barbs and nonsense at another time.

james
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« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2004, 09:02:05 PM »

Like I said, whatever floats you boat. Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2004, 09:36:22 PM »

Dear Orthoman,

It is good that you are here. As an Orthodox Christian I have many friends that are Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox etc. They are all Orthodox. Most Orthodox in a relatively decent mindset would agree that the Orthodox Church is not in communion with Rome for sincere and valid reasons. This conclusion is the result of Orthodoxy’s reliance on her patristic tradition and it’s truthful reality. This practice often results in a conflict relative to discussions with those who are in communion with the Bishop of Rome. That is because the Roman Catholic Church has a developing mindset that has lead to a departure from the Orthodox faith and the Orthodox Church has remained true to the teachings of Christ and the Fathers. When the Father’s are truthfully referred to in the context of the Orthodox faith from which their understanding and writings are born by the grace of God many of the positions articulated by those in communion with the Bishop of Rome are revealed as simply wrong or distorted. I have known some people in my life that have sought the truth recognized it and became Orthodox and one suffered for it even in death.  The idea that the theology of east and west are compatible in many ways is simply not so relative to critical spiritual understandings because these dispositions affect the former.


As such when Orthodox Patristic references are used in discussions with the Eastern Christians under Rome either no response is given or some sort of a deflection tactic is utilized. I often hear from Roman Catholics or Eastern Christians under Rome that the Orthodox do not have the unity of Peter as such look at all the ethnic or division issues etc. This is utter nonsense because the claim is made from a worldly perspective that is the result of the migration of the see of Rome into such a realm. I’m very sure that there is theological unity among all of the Orthodox Churches for we certainly don’t adjust the creed and sometimes use the filoque and sometimes not for whatever reason and understand that the Orthodox Church is the Church of Christ. As such I don’t believe that there is unity among the Eastern Christians under Rome I think there is confusion for if we ask them what their theology is we here nothing or end up scratching our heads until we are bald.  In Orthodox theology the mind is considered lower and the heart is expressed by the Orthodox fathers as the seat of the soul and divine knowledge it has always been that way. From the Latin’s we can see the results of the reliance of the mind for theological development. It is known that there is a direct correlation between liturgical consistent practices and theological consistency expressed in the fullness of the truth and established in the Orthodox Church, which the Lord God Almighty’s right hand has planted. In the correct teachings of the Orthodox Church children are not denied the precious body and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

In the developed Latin rite of today as a result of the adjusting of the original order of the sacraments by the minds of men in error, sadly children are denied the Eucharist until they have reached the age of reason of seven years old or so when they are more intelligent. However they are taught obedience to their bishop. This denial of the Body and blood of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is an established practice within the Latin rite of today. Children used to not be denied the Eucharist but the minds of men went to work and have subjected the sincere faithful to their distortions for past 900 years or so. Has Christ not been crucified for children even if they have not reached the age of reason?

 St John Chrysostom has written “The most holy Sacrament is a burning fire, so that when we leave the altar we breathe forth flames of love which make us objects of terror to hell.”



St Ephrem the Syrian has written See, Fire and Spirit in the womb that bore you! See, Fire and Spirit in the river where you were baptised! Fire and Spirit in our baptism; in the Bread and the Cup, Fire and Holy Spirit!

John 21:16
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Matthew 19
13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

Matthew 26

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."
27: Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.


As Saint Clement of Alexandria has written "We learn from the Scriptures demonstrably that the heresies have gone astray, and that only in the true Church is the most accurate knowledge."

Facilitated by the presence of children surely most men or woman can move into their hearts for a moment and see that it is wrong to deny a child the body and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ irrespective of what the minds of men in the Latin rite now subject the faithful to as well as their loved ones to. How can this practice be rationalized within the heart? It is a institutionalized violation of the hearts and minds suffered by many Latin rite parents who love their children in accordance with the commandment of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Surely these little ones are loved and cherished and HIS friends.

St Irenaeus of Lyons tells us the heretics are proved to be disciples not of the Apostles, but of their own wicked notions. To this cause also are due the various opinions that exist among them, inasmuch as each one adopts error in whatever manner it presents itself to him. But the Church throughout all the world, having its origin firm from the Apostles, perseveres in one and the same opinion with regard to God and His Son.

The Blessed Theophylact's tells us the gates of hades are those persecutors who from time to time would send Christians to hades. But the heretics, too, are gates leading to hades. The Church, then has prevailed over many persecutors and many heretics. The Church is also each one of us who has become a house of God. For if we have been established on the confession of Christ, the gates of hades, which are our sins, will not prevail against us.  

I doesn’t take a enormous amount of intelligence to come to the realization that of the 25,000 or more splinter “churches” are around today because of the reformation are the result of legitimate concerns of those who opposed the Pope and Latin's.

St Ignatius of Antioch has written: All who belong to God and Jesus Christ are with the bishop; and all who repent [of schism] and come into the unity of the Church will also belong to God, that they may be living according to Jesus Christ. Make no mistake, my brothers. If anyone follows a man who causes a schism, he 'does not inherit the Kingdom of God'. And any man who goes in for strange doctrine disasociates himself from the Passion.

It is obvious and true that the Latin’s of today have separated themselves from Orthodoxy by means of unorthodoxy which is being experienced today by many sincere and faithful members who have seen some more of the dismantling of the ancient and venerable Latin rite with acceleration before their very eyes. These faithful people have subjected themselves and their children to the understandings of those in error who when made aware of a heresy disregard or adjust that heresy for justification purposes. In more recent times they have suffered from the sexual abuse crisis and so much more even to the point of witnessing Pope John Paul II lowering his head and kissing the koran when the spirit of the koran does not confess our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to be the Son of God. This is an outright public mocking of our crowned and martyred Christians you have suffered brutal deaths. At some defining point in time our beloved Christian brother’s of the Latin rite must move into their hearts and understand how these things can be happening.  Many of these things are merely a manifestation of the continuation of the great apostasy from Holy Orthodoxy.  


Do not be deceived as I was and as many now remain. The Eastern Christians under Rome are in truth agents of apostasy knowingly or ignorance irrespective of what word is being used to describe them.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin
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« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2004, 09:41:32 PM »

The original topic was Patriarch Bartholomew's reception of two Roman Catholic French bishops on the occasion of the anniversary of the beginning of the sacking of Constantinople; a topic which has died a natural death.  

Those who want to pursue the topic of how best to characterize Byzantine Rite jurisdictions who recognize the supremacy of the Roman Pontiff may want to start a new thread.
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« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2004, 09:55:04 PM »

[The one I would most trust to give me an accurate description of eastern catholicism would be an Eastern Catholic]

Then how does one know which group of 'Eastern Catholics' being addressed.  Those who are Orthodox or those who are 'under' papal authority?

Orthodoc
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« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2004, 09:59:20 PM »



Excellent post matthew!  You will be a welcome addition here.  How about telling us a little about yourself.  Are you crade Orthodox or a convert?

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« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2004, 10:34:43 PM »

Dear Orthodoc,

I don't know how excellent the post was for that depends on the disposition of the reader. I do know that I spoke what I believe to be the truth, others may disagree and that does not mean I hate them or want to bully them. The evil one seeks to bully through ignorance and the passions that we all struggle with Orthodox or Catholic or in short Christian that embrace a theology that is conducive to fight the enemy.

I'm the son of a beloved very loving and merciful Orthodox Priest of thrice blessed memory. I spent some time questioning many things and was away from the Church trying to make a pile of money and came back the hard way with the help of some Priest's and bishops. In short around 10 years ago I thought my way into a mess and jumped into a sewer. Glory be to God for confession and Holy Communion and for all the God given mysteries given in His Holy Orthodox Church.

Nowadays I paint icons so I don't know if I can post much but will check in a bit if my first post doesn't get me banished.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin
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« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2004, 04:10:20 PM »

Ben,

My attention is the Lakers & Pistons game, we can trade barbs and nonsense at another time.

james


AND THE PISTON'S WIN IT ALL!  YEEHAH!
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« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2004, 04:17:56 PM »

Yes the better team won, but I live in L.A.  and I am CELTIC fan, though the Dodgers are my NL team & the BOSOX AL.

Now we are off topic, need another thread/board for sports.........food & beverages ?

james
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« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2004, 06:58:47 PM »

I maybe posting to a long time ago part of this subject.  But it has been on my mind.  Pope John Paul II, only referred to the Eastern Catholic Church as the 2nd lung.  He said that it was the other lung of the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2004, 08:39:49 PM »

[ Pope John Paul II, only referred to the Eastern Catholic Church as the 2nd lung.  He said that it was the other lung of the Catholic Church. ]

But the Eastern Catholic Church is the Orthodox Church.  Always has been.

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« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2004, 05:05:40 PM »

But the Eastern Catholic Church says the Pope is the Supreme Universal Pontiff.  And there are many differences, according to a Greek Orthodox Priest I know, between Orthodox Liturgies and Eastern Catholic.  Eastern Catholics, other than following the Pope, must have celebate clergy as well.  I know that there are many things that are the same, but according to Orthodox teaching (as far as I know, not being Orthodox but having an Orthodox Priest say so) Eastern Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox are 2 different religions.
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« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2004, 09:06:56 PM »

I know that there are many things that are the same, but according to Orthodox teaching (as far as I know, not being Orthodox but having an Orthodox Priest say so) Eastern Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox are 2 different religions.  

You are right. They are not Orthodox.
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« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2004, 10:04:00 PM »

 >:(Reading this thread saddens me.

Today I came across a message in this week's 'Come Receive the Light, (Christian Orthodox Radio Progamme), by Father Christopher Metropulos

Quote

No, authority in the Body of Christ is both simple and profound: The Head of the Church is Jesus Christ. The authority of the Church is the Holy Spirit, and the hallmark of authority in the Church is Service, not mastery.

Unquote

There is in Orthodoxy a tendency for some bishops to assert themselves in a papal and authoritarian way. The increasing use of titles, such as 'Archbishop of all........', being a sign of this.

In the epistles see how one church addresses another, from the church which is at Corinth, for example.

The head of The Church is Christ Jesus, and no man should in pride presume to take titles such as Supreme Universal Pontiff.

The catholic church is whereever there is an Orthodox bishop and his flock; there is everything needfull unto salvation. No matter how small the flock and how humble the bishopric!
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« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2004, 01:15:50 AM »

Very well said, Etienne!
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« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2004, 01:07:59 PM »

We Orthodox like to say that we are not an organized religion but a way of life.  Yes, its true, we are of different Faiths. And the split has gotten wider through the centuries.  So much so that it seems like we are living on diffent planets.

I also understood the Pope to mean that the Byzantine Catholics were the 2nd lung and not the Orthodox.  

JoeS   Cool




But the Eastern Catholic Church says the Pope is the Supreme Universal Pontiff.  And there are many differences, according to a Greek Orthodox Priest I know, between Orthodox Liturgies and Eastern Catholic.  Eastern Catholics, other than following the Pope, must have celebate clergy as well.  I know that there are many things that are the same, but according to Orthodox teaching (as far as I know, not being Orthodox but having an Orthodox Priest say so) Eastern Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox are 2 different religions.  
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« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2004, 07:34:14 AM »

I think it is the time to start thinking about beeing positive when it comes to ralations between the East and West,

This will never mean accepting what it is not Orthodoxy, never, but it should mean that we, on our part, accept the extended hand.

Why be militant (negative meaning), always  and not let Holy Spirit work His great deed of healing.

I say again, it does not mean becoming Latinised, but becoming more Orthodox, which is charitable Christian, willing to forgive and ready to talk.

I am all for dialogue. Now and always. Ten centuries of separation are enough, don't you agree?

God bless.

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« Reply #71 on: August 29, 2004, 04:26:30 PM »

I think it is the time to start thinking about beeing positive when it comes to ralations between the East and West,
This will never mean accepting what it is not Orthodoxy, never, but it should mean that we, on our part, accept the extended hand.
Why be militant (negative meaning), always  and not let Holy Spirit work His great deed of healing.
I say again, it does not mean becoming Latinised, but becoming more Orthodox, which is charitable Christian, willing to forgive and ready to talk.
I am all for dialogue. Now and always. Ten centuries of separation are enough, don't you agree?
God bless.

Becuase we may get tricked. That is the reason most Catholics shouldn't get into ecumenical dialogue. Do you not remember that the devil " as a roaring lion, seeketh him, whom he may devour"? We may think that it is the Holy Ghost but in reality it maybe the devil in costume. We as men and becuase of our fallen nature are extremely gullible and because the devil is cunning and works whatever way he can to deceive us and bring us into his "palace", Hell where you can burn eternally for ever and ever and ever.amen
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« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2004, 11:00:55 PM »

:Eastern Catholics, other than following the Pope, must have celebate clergy as well. :

This is false, except for a little more than a century in the U.S. This local anomaly is currently being rectified, I believe, though it's taking unconscionably long. Eastern Catholics in their "native habitat" do not have to have celibate clergy. Break out of your American ghetto--if you are Orthodox, you ought to have a broader perspective!

And Catholic Eagle, I agree that Satan is ready to trick us, but the easiest way for him to do that is to play on our pride and our desire to be better and holier than others--these are, after all, the things in us that are most like him! So I'd be cautious about assuming that anti-ecumenism is somehow "safe." The desire never to be taken in, if not tempered by grace, will lead (as C. S. Lewis's story of the Dwarfs in _The Last Battle_ shows) to damnation.

You've probably hold the joke about the Baptists (or Catholics, or any other group one happens to want to ridicule at the moment) who are in their own little room in heaven, and new arrivals are cautioned to be quiet so as not to disturb the illusion that they are the only ones there. I wonder how that kind of "heaven" would differ from hell? That is what I worry about a lot more than the fear that naive indulgence in the vice of Christian charity will lead to some kind of Satanic deception.

In Christ,

Edwin
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« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2004, 11:08:19 PM »

We may think that it is the Holy Ghost but in reality it maybe the devil in costume. We as men and becuase of our fallen nature are extremely gullible and because the devil is cunning and works whatever way he can to deceive us and bring us into his "palace"

You mean like what happened with the Schism, the "Crusades", the Inquisition, the abuse of the innocents, etc.

With all the exposure the RCC has had to Satan since breaking from the True Church, you'd think it would recognize him by now.
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« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2004, 07:08:36 PM »

You mean like what happened with the Schism, the "Crusades", the Inquisition, the abuse of the innocents, etc.

With all the exposure the RCC has had to Satan since breaking from the True Church, you'd think it would recognize him by now.


The "Orthodox" began the schism. The Crusades were started so that Christian pilgrims could have a safe route to the Holy Land and were not evil. WHat some stupid soldiers did was what they did and not the Church's fault.  The Holy Inquisition protected the CHurch from heresy. WOOOOO... It is bad for the CHurch to protect herself against heresy. Oh yeah, millions didn't die at the hand of the Holy Inquistion it was probably more like hundreds in its 500 year history.  Is standing against abortion and contraceptives "the abuse of infants"?

Some how no body remember what the Imperial State CHurch of RUssia did many times with the help of the Czar. They closed churches,killed thousands, sent priests and nuns to Siberia, and forced Greek Catholics to become schismatic.[/b][/b]
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« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2004, 11:17:56 PM »

Tom: You know your post wasn't charitable.
CatholicEagle: I understand you feel insulted, but in your response you are going to have to try to be charitable and respectful as well.  Attacking Orthodoxy back is not going to make things better.  In the future, if you or anyone else feels a post is offensive please use the report post feature.


anastasios
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« Reply #76 on: September 01, 2004, 12:06:42 AM »

Dear all,

I often find myself wanting to fight back with words which is really only a way to escalate matters to no good avail. It is good to keep in mind many of the understandings of the Saints like St John Maximovitch of San Francisco & Shanghai, who in part of a letter to the youth says the following;

"More than anything, guard yourselves against conflict, forgive each other when you are insulted. Remember: he who quarrels consoles the devil; he who makes peace gladdens Christ; he who makes peace among others helps Christ and will be accepted into the Heavenly Kingdom as a Son of God (Mtt 5:9)."

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin
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« Reply #77 on: September 01, 2004, 03:32:46 AM »

Dear Catholic Eagle,
I don't think anyone here honestly believes the Church in Rome was responsible for the actions of the fourth crusade. The Pope was apalled when he learned what had happened, but that didn't stop him from taking advantage of the situation and trying to force a union (thereby rubbing salt into the wound), nor did it stop Catholic churches in Rome and Venice from being adorned with and housing countless treasures and relics that had been looted from Constantinople. For that, Rome is responsible.
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« Reply #78 on: September 01, 2004, 09:20:20 PM »

this is one of my most favorite words.
[glow=Green, 4,000][size=12]huh"?[/size]  [/glow]
Prodomos, me not knowing what you is sayings.
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« Reply #79 on: September 01, 2004, 09:43:55 PM »

[The Pope was apalled when he learned what had happened, but that didn't stop him from taking advantage of the situation and trying to force a union (thereby rubbing salt into the wound), nor did it stop Catholic churches in Rome and Venice from being adorned with and housing countless treasures and relics that had been looted from Constantinople. For that, Rome is responsible.]

Nor did it stop him from putting a Latin on the Patriarchal throne.

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« Reply #80 on: September 01, 2004, 10:21:43 PM »

Lets face it Orthodoc,

Without a few Latins, Eastern Catholics, Anglicans etc here you would be bored.

We can't be wrong all the time, and you can't be right all the time.

We're all imperfect & sinners.

Guess I'll tecate to that.

james
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« Reply #81 on: September 01, 2004, 11:48:39 PM »

Quote
Guess I'll tecate to that.

LOL james i love that you've turned tecate into a verb! hahaha
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« Reply #82 on: September 02, 2004, 10:23:36 AM »

What is with you people and Tecate? Wink
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« Reply #83 on: September 02, 2004, 11:01:06 AM »

this is one of my most favorite words.
[glow=Green, 4,000][size=12]huh"?[/size]  [/glow]
Prodomos, me not knowing what you is sayings.

The Pope forbade the crusaders from sacking Orthodox places.  But they did it anyway. What Prodromos is saying is that the Pope profitted from it nevertheless--for instance St Mark's Basillica in Venice--and as Orthodoc pointed out, the Pope put a Latin on the patriarchal throne and celebrated this "reunion" with the East.

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« Reply #84 on: September 02, 2004, 01:02:49 PM »

What is with you people and Tecate? Wink

Yeah, Tecate is gross.  Drink Pacifico, Modelo (Negra is better) or Noche Buena (rather rare).
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« Reply #85 on: January 09, 2005, 07:17:35 PM »

Yeah

I dont get how he can call thouse latins, Brothers & Sisters, the sepereated breathern, the split body of Christ, the two lungs of the church, as if the church "the body of christ" can be split in two, but yet he calls the Traditionalist Orthodox,  schismatics when they just want to preserve what is Orthodox, its pretty sad.
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« Reply #86 on: October 23, 2008, 10:21:14 PM »

Quote
Some how no body remember what the Imperial State CHurch of RUssia did many times with the help of the Czar. They closed churches,killed thousands, sent priests and nuns to Siberia, and forced Greek Catholics to become schismatic.

Huh? What are Greek Catholics doing in Russia? For the rest of that comment, all I can say is Huh?
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« Reply #87 on: November 23, 2008, 07:35:41 PM »

It saddens me to see such fighting whenever the subject of healing the Schism comes up. Bringing up the past serves nothing but Lucifer. We are supposed to forgive aren't we? I'm more interested in helping Rome drive out the orcs of modernism and heresy than beat my breast over things that happened long before I was born.
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« Reply #88 on: November 23, 2008, 08:12:29 PM »

It saddens me to see such fighting whenever the subject of healing the Schism comes up. Bringing up the past serves nothing but Lucifer. We are supposed to forgive aren't we? I'm more interested in helping Rome drive out the orcs of modernism and heresy than beat my breast over things that happened long before I was born.

The problem about the healing of scism is that neither side is willing to budge even though the Orthodox have laid down their acceptance terms and the Catholics want no part of it. Hence why we have nothing but fighting. Further, if we aren't going to learn and remember the past, we might as well just throw out the Old Testament because it occured well before any of us were born. And for that matter, the New Testament as well since it also occurred well before any of us were born. And while we're at it, Tradition (yes capital T) might as well go out the window. So now lets just throw out everything and we'll all be more happy in life.

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« Reply #89 on: November 23, 2008, 09:29:39 PM »

Quote
The problem about the healing of scism is that neither side is willing to budge even though the Orthodox have laid down their acceptance terms and the Catholics want no part of it. Hence why we have nothing but fighting. Further, if we aren't going to learn and remember the past, we might as well just throw out the Old Testament because it occured well before any of us were born. And for that matter, the New Testament as well since it also occurred well before any of us were born. And while we're at it, Tradition (yes capital T) might as well go out the window. So now lets just throw out everything and we'll all be more happy in life.

I understand the first part, but issues about the past I would have to agree with what VirSpeluncaeOrthodoxae says. For example, the Fourth Crusade should not be a reason to keep us from uniting with Roman Catholics. That happened 800 years ago and ought to be entirely irrelevant. What truly keeps us out of communion is differing theology and views about the pope. I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but the wrongs both Roman Catholics and Orthodox have done to each other (politically) should not be a factor in unity.
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« Reply #90 on: November 23, 2008, 09:41:23 PM »

Christos Earnest! Christ is Risen!

so lets say that almost all orthodox bishops want to reunite with the west as voted in a unorthodox council but there is a lone bishop that refuses, what happens next?

Been there, done that Smiley. Ask Saint Mark of Ephesus.

John.

St. Mark is my patron.

If one Bishop refuses the impact depends upon who that Bishop is. Without Mark, the false union had no hope. But the process includes how the people accept or  reject such agreements. Back then, it was St. Mark plus the rejection of the mass of Othodox people that did in the false union.

So it will be with us today.

Mark
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« Reply #91 on: November 23, 2008, 09:54:11 PM »

I just concluded a three week email correspondence with a Catholic Priest about the unity issue. I had seen him on EWTN take cheap shot at the Orthodox. So I wrote to him and we went over the issues. It was fun and informative. However, I have to say that if his attitudes is at all representative of the RCC..there is no shot at unity for a long while.

He is a bit unusual since he is a converted Anglican Priest whom Rome allows to be married. But basically he wants us to come to heel. The air of superiority that he took was not a pretty site. Add to that his basic misconceptions about the Orthodox ( though he had clearly made a study of us) and his unquestioning adherence to Roman dogma hit the trifecta..  "Arrogant, Ignorant and Proud" 

And this guy is an author and lecturer and professional apologist, his specialty is with the Evangelicals. He said we and the Evangelicals are both "primitives"..........anyway I wont bore you with more details but the unity thing is a long long long way off IMHO

Mark
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« Reply #92 on: November 23, 2008, 09:58:59 PM »

One Anglican convert to Catholicism does not equal Pope Benedict XVI.   Wink
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« Reply #93 on: June 25, 2014, 05:58:59 AM »

Just stumbling on the past:
So you are saying that the Holy Spirit was guiding the Pope when he decided that Galileo was wrong and that the Earth really is the center of the Universe? That the Holy Spirit was guiding the Pope when he either instigated, or at the least, approved of WESTERN Christians slaughtering (what was it, 13 times?),  hundreds of thousands of people in the Crusades in the name of Christianity? etc, etc, etc.....

Reading the histiory of your church, I would not be questioning how the Holy Spirit operates in the EO Churches, I would be asking how it operates in yours.


Er. Tom, do you have any idea how ignorant these questions are?

I tried to find a more diplomatic word than "ignorant," but it really seemed like the mot juste. If I have offended, forgive me, but I don't know what else to say.

Do you honestly think Catholics believe the Pope is infallible every time he sneezes? That's a common misconception among fundamentalist Protestants, but ISTM an Orthodox should know better.

I'm sorry if that seems abrasive, but OTOH you seem to feel you can insult our Faith with impunity (and with more zeal than knowledge, frankly). Ben merely asks a *question*--and you respond with insulting cracks about Catholicism.

Moreover, you're very misinformed about the Galileo incident. Let's just say that you seem to have bought into the typical anti-Catholic Galileo Myth. Bob Jones, call your office. :p

AMDG,

Diane, wondering if non-proselytizing diplomacy means that we Catholics have to sit here and take it when our Faith and Church are grossly misrepresented
Very odd words from someone bearing responsibility of the banishment of the Orthodox on CAF to the "non-Catholic" religions, or just plain banishment.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13287.msg189120.html#msg189120
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« Reply #94 on: June 25, 2014, 07:15:11 AM »

Lord have mercy. If the creed is to be believed, we can not accept the two lungs theory.
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« Reply #95 on: June 25, 2014, 09:27:38 AM »

I translated the material below from the French Orthodox forum, Orthodoxie.  I find myself perplexed by His Holiness's enthusiasm for dialogue leading toward eventual unity with the Roman Catholic Church, given the state of the latter in the post-Vatican II environment.

I am also somewhat confused and troubled by His Holiness's endorsement of the terms, "two lungs of the Church" and "sister Churches," and his statements concerning the "tearing apart" of "the Body of Christ."  I was catechized that the Church has consistently held that the body of Christ is One, and always will be One, whether the Roman patriarch is in communion with that Body, or not.

You can find the original posting, in French, at http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodoxie/message/849.

It is the body of Christ that makes him(Roman Pope) a Patriarch, his patriarchy does not make or break the Body of Christ
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« Reply #96 on: June 25, 2014, 01:26:21 PM »

Bumping a ten-year old thread; now that's some impressive e-archaeology.
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« Reply #97 on: June 25, 2014, 01:30:09 PM »

Bumping a ten-year old thread; now that's some impressive e-archaeology.

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.  For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. (Deuteronomy 18:10-13)"

Thread necromancers are an abomination.
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« Reply #98 on: June 25, 2014, 04:17:26 PM »

Hey the forum still talks about the same thing 10 years later, Patriarchate of Constantinople speaking of the Roman Catholics as a sister church!
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« Reply #99 on: June 25, 2014, 04:22:03 PM »

Bumping a ten-year old thread; now that's some impressive e-archaeology.

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.  For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. (Deuteronomy 18:10-13)"

Thread necromancers are an abomination.

Many things described as "abominations" in the OT are ok now. This is one of them.  angel
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« Reply #100 on: June 25, 2014, 10:38:25 PM »

I like "A Very Cutlip Christmas".
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