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Author Topic: Servitude vs slavery to the Theotokos  (Read 6431 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ortho_cat
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« on: December 21, 2010, 11:40:01 AM »

Split off from Brown Scapular - Schultz


Quote
Like the rosary, this scapular has become the badge of the devout Catholic and the true servant of Mary.


Hmm the 'servant' part threw me off...

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 12:24:12 PM by Schultz » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2010, 01:36:02 PM »

Quote
Like the rosary, this scapular has become the badge of the devout Catholic and the true servant of Mary.


Hmm the 'servant' part threw me off...

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."

Must make it real rough on bishops then...you know...having to choose between serving his flock and serving Christ...eh?
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2010, 04:25:58 PM »

Quote
Like the rosary, this scapular has become the badge of the devout Catholic and the true servant of Mary.


Hmm the 'servant' part threw me off...

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."

Our Lady's will is completely that of Christ, so serving Our Lady is serving Christ.

Respectfully, the above post has the air of Protestant polemics.
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2010, 04:29:16 PM »

Quote
Like the rosary, this scapular has become the badge of the devout Catholic and the true servant of Mary.


Hmm the 'servant' part threw me off...

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."

Our Lady's will is completely that of Christ, so serving Our Lady is serving Christ.

Respectfully, the above post has the air of Protestant polemics.

St. Epiphanius of Cyprus: "There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper"
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2010, 04:30:25 PM »

Quote
Like the rosary, this scapular has become the badge of the devout Catholic and the true servant of Mary.


Hmm the 'servant' part threw me off...

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."

Must make it real rough on bishops then...you know...having to choose between serving his flock and serving Christ...eh?

Hey don't look at me, I didn't write the verse! Wink
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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2010, 05:48:41 PM »

Quote
Like the rosary, this scapular has become the badge of the devout Catholic and the true servant of Mary.


Hmm the 'servant' part threw me off...

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."

Must make it real rough on bishops then...you know...having to choose between serving his flock and serving Christ...eh?

Hey don't look at me, I didn't write the verse! Wink

Don't interpret it too well either.
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2010, 06:55:27 PM »

Quote
Like the rosary, this scapular has become the badge of the devout Catholic and the true servant of Mary.


Hmm the 'servant' part threw me off...

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."
Cease being Protestant and become Orthodox/Catholic>
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 10:27:13 PM »

I am an Orthodox Christian who is a servant of the Mother of God.  angel
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 10:38:49 PM »

I am an Orthodox Christian who is a servant of the Mother of God.  angel

As for me and my House Hold ,we will serve the Holy Orthodox Christ with out adding or taking away and Honoring and Venerate The Orthodox Most Blessed Theotokos with out adding or taking away ,and use her as a role model ,in saying thy will be done Lord and ask for her help ...Amen Amen
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2010, 11:07:23 PM »

I Knew it...
The Catholic Pagan Goddess Mary ,want's to be served ,even worshiped...

Orthodox prayers say:

O Lady, accept the prayer of Thy slaves, and deliver us from every need and sorrow.
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2010, 11:12:25 PM »

I Knew it...
The Catholic Pagan Goddess Mary ,want's to be served ,even worshiped...

Orthodox prayers say:

O Lady, accept the prayer of Thy slaves, and deliver us from every need and sorrow.

In serbian Prayers we use the word sluga, means servant ,but even i know it doesn't actually mean where slaves and servants of hers. God is the only one one serves......

Ill take correction if i erred , from our living  saintly  poster Fr. Amborse aka Irish Hermit...He tells it like it is... Grin
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« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2010, 06:27:19 AM »

I am an Orthodox Christian who is a servant of the Mother of God.  angel

In this way we pull the same plough!!
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« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2010, 11:59:03 AM »

Quote
Like the rosary, this scapular has become the badge of the devout Catholic and the true servant of Mary.


Hmm the 'servant' part threw me off...

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."

Must make it real rough on bishops then...you know...having to choose between serving his flock and serving Christ...eh?

Hey don't look at me, I didn't write the verse! Wink

Don't interpret it too well either.

Perhaps you would care to assist me with the proper interpretation?
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« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2010, 12:00:23 PM »

Quote
Like the rosary, this scapular has become the badge of the devout Catholic and the true servant of Mary.


Hmm the 'servant' part threw me off...

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."
Cease being Protestant and become Orthodox/Catholic>

So in order to become Orthodox I have to acknowledge my servitude to Mary?

BTW, perhaps we could split this topic while include Stashko's, mine, and other relevant posts? I want to get other's opinions on this issue of 'servitude' and 'slavery'.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 12:06:13 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2010, 12:37:39 PM »

Ortho_cat,
Do thy ever sing the Paraklesis in your church?
"To the Theotokos, let us run now most fervently,
As sinners and lowly ones,
Let us fall down in repentance,
Crying from the depths of our soul:
Lady, come and help us,
Have compassion upon us;
Hasten now for we are lost
In the host of our errors;
Do not turn your servants away,
For you alone are a hope to us."
"O Theotokos, we shall not cease from speaking of all your mighty acts, all we the unworthy ones; for if
you had not stood to intercede for us, who would have delivered us from such numerous dangers? Who
would have preserved us all until now in true freedom? O Lady, we shall not turn away from you; for you
always save your servants from all manner of grief. "
"You shelter, all those who in faith flee to you, with your mighty hand, O pure one, as you are good; no one
else have we who sin as a perpetual intercession with our God in dangers and sorrows, we who have been
burdened with our abundant sins, Theotokos in the highest. Therefore, we all fall down before you; rescue
us, your servants from adversities."
"You are the joy of all that sorrow, and of the oppressed a guardian, and nurture of all the poor, comfort to
the estranged, a support you are to the blind, visitation of all the sick, a shelter and succour to those
brought down by pain, helper of orphaned ones: you are Theotokos in the Highest, O spotless Maiden; , we beg you, to redeem your slaves."
"Lady, receive the supplications of your slaves, and deliver us from every affliction and necessity. "

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« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2010, 12:42:20 PM »

Quote
Like the rosary, this scapular has become the badge of the devout Catholic and the true servant of Mary.


Hmm the 'servant' part threw me off...

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."

Our Lady's will is completely that of Christ, so serving Our Lady is serving Christ.

Respectfully, the above post has the air of Protestant polemics.

So along this same line of thinking, could we not also say that by worshipping her, we are worshipping Christ? (by worship I am implying the modern interpretation of the word).
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 12:43:04 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2010, 12:44:18 PM »

Ortho_cat,
Do thy ever sing the Paraklesis in your church?
"To the Theotokos, let us run now most fervently,
As sinners and lowly ones,
Let us fall down in repentance,
Crying from the depths of our soul:
Lady, come and help us,
Have compassion upon us;
Hasten now for we are lost
In the host of our errors;
Do not turn your servants away,
For you alone are a hope to us."
"O Theotokos, we shall not cease from speaking of all your mighty acts, all we the unworthy ones; for if
you had not stood to intercede for us, who would have delivered us from such numerous dangers? Who
would have preserved us all until now in true freedom? O Lady, we shall not turn away from you; for you
always save your servants from all manner of grief. "
"You shelter, all those who in faith flee to you, with your mighty hand, O pure one, as you are good; no one
else have we who sin as a perpetual intercession with our God in dangers and sorrows, we who have been
burdened with our abundant sins, Theotokos in the highest. Therefore, we all fall down before you; rescue
us, your servants from adversities."
"You are the joy of all that sorrow, and of the oppressed a guardian, and nurture of all the poor, comfort to
the estranged, a support you are to the blind, visitation of all the sick, a shelter and succour to those
brought down by pain, helper of orphaned ones: you are Theotokos in the Highest, O spotless Maiden; , we beg you, to redeem your slaves."
"Lady, receive the supplications of your slaves, and deliver us from every affliction and necessity. "



I've read the prayer before, yet have not encountered it in a service as of yet. The quote from St. Epiphanius comes to mind whenever I do read it, however.
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« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2010, 01:08:37 PM »

    "To Thee, the champion leader, do we Thy servants dedicate a hymn of victory and thanksgiving, as ones who have been delivered from eternal death by the Grace of Christ our God Who was born of Thee and by Thy maternal mediation before Him. As Thou dost have invincible might, free us from all misfortunes and sorrowful circumstances who cry aloud:

    Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, full of Grace, Joy of all who sorrow!"

In serving the Theotokos (and all the saints) we are serving and honoring our Lord.
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« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2010, 01:56:03 PM »

I am an Orthodox Christian who is a servant of the Mother of God.  angel

Amen.
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« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2010, 03:33:08 PM »

I Knew it...
The Catholic Pagan Goddess Mary ,want's to be served ,even worshiped...

Orthodox prayers say:

O Lady, accept the prayer of Thy slaves, and deliver us from every need and sorrow.

What do the Greeks say? In the NT, there are various Greek words which could be rendered as servant, slave, among other words in English and often are in English versions of the NT even when translating the same word to adhere to the English stylistic convention of avoiding "repetitious" use of a word.

And one must remember that slavery in that time could be very different than what most folks think of slavery as now.
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« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2010, 04:17:24 PM »

I am an Orthodox Christian who is a servant of the Mother of God.  angel
Thanks be to God Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2010, 10:08:45 PM »

Perhaps then someone could clarify what you mean/imply by using the word servant. Is this a servant-master type of relationship? The use of 'slave' here also seems to imply this...
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 10:10:50 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2010, 10:47:43 PM »

Perhaps then someone could clarify what you mean/imply by using the word servant. Is this a servant-master type of relationship? The use of 'slave' here also seems to imply this...

Even Christ  calls us friends, not slaves or servants but brothers and sisters or Family...If our Lord says this about us,curious  how can anyone say other wise..... Huh Huh Example ,Even our earthly mothers don't treat us like servants or slaves but children they do things for us out of love ,and we Children would do like wise out of love for our Mother.....


 
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« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2010, 11:05:42 PM »

Last time I checked, the Pauline epistles were still part of the New Testament.

Romans 1:1, "I, Paul, a slave [doulos] of Jesus Christ."

Here's chunks of Romans 6:

Quote
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

And having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.

But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift [= grace] of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And the beloved disciple.

Quote
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John

And "bondservants of God" (Rev 7:3)

Rev 10:7 - "then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants [doulous] the prophets."

« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 11:11:33 PM by John Larocque » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2010, 11:13:10 PM »

Last time I checked, the Pauline epistles were still part of the New Testament.

Romans 1:1, "I, Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ."

Here's chunks of Romans 6:

Quote
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

And having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.

But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift [= grace] of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


I see no mention in whats written  Roll Eyes, topic being servants/slaves to the Blessed Mother ....
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« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2010, 11:29:48 PM »

Quote
Even Christ  calls us friends, not slaves or servants but brothers and sisters or Family...If our Lord says this about us,curious  how can anyone say other wise.

There are many instances in the New Testament in which they use the term 'doulos' or indentured servant (i.e. slave). That includes all of the above examples.

"Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus"
"Paul, a slave of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ"

Here's a link that goes into the term a bit, in conjunction with the Annunciation.
www.gocanada.org/youth/documents/saints/annunciation.pdf
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 11:42:43 PM by John Larocque » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2010, 11:53:33 PM »

Here's a number of prayers, which would make most Protestants blush. The English here uses "servant", albeit from the Slavic tradition, not Greek.

http://www.holycross-hermitage.com/pages/Orthodox_Life/theotokos_prayers.htm

"O My most holy Mistress, the Theotokos, who art far more honorable than the angels and archangels, cherubim and seraphim, and far more holy than all the saints, 0 Virgin Mother of God! Save me, thy humble and sinful servant, for thou knowest, all-merciful Lady, that, alter God, I place all my hope in thee, and that I have no other refuge of salvation but thee, O all-good one."

"To thee do I entrust my life for protection and, on thee, alter God, do I place all hope of my salvation, O Mistress and Virgin Theotokos. I, thy servant, pray thee, despise not me who have many sins, but behold my sorrow and my perplexity over them and grant me relief and consolation, that I not perish to the end."

"Yea, my Mistress, permit not my soul to see the terrible and fearsome threat and torment of the demons prepared for sinners, but do thou go before me and save me thy servant in that terrible hour, that I may glorify thee unto the ages, mine only hope and the Mediatress of my salvation. Amen."

The language here would not look out of place in any Roman Catholic prayerbook.
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« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2010, 06:34:22 PM »

How do we then reconcile the concept of servant with this verse:

No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

http://bible.cc/matthew/6-24.htm

Are there any ECF's who referred to themselves as a servant (or slave) to the Theotokos?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 06:35:05 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2010, 06:40:47 PM »

Why would the Blessed Theotokos need anything from us or us being  her slaves,,She Has it all in heaven ..Only thing i can think of would be, that where Obedient to Her beloved Son our lord and Saviour and God ..... Huh
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« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2010, 07:01:58 PM »

The Theotokos being the primary intercessor for us before Christ God, it is entirely understandable that she is in some way a guide to us and we her obedient servants.
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« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2010, 07:10:39 PM »

How do we then reconcile the concept of servant with this verse:

No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

http://bible.cc/matthew/6-24.htm

Are there any ECF's who referred to themselves as a servant (or slave) to the Theotokos?
The choice is between money and God, not between the Lord's Mother and God.
So, what is there to be reconciled? 
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« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2010, 07:13:25 PM »

How do we then reconcile the concept of servant with this verse:

No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

http://bible.cc/matthew/6-24.htm

Are there any ECF's who referred to themselves as a servant (or slave) to the Theotokos?

It goes along with how a house divided against itself cannot stand. But since the Theotokos and the Lord Jesus Christ are part of the same house, a servant/slave of one is a servant of the other.

Christians are also all slaves and servants to one another. We wash each other's feet and bear each other's burdens, having everything in common. My service to a brother in need is not in conflict to my service to God, it is my service to God. What I do unto the least of them, I do unto Him. Likewise, all superiors are served in deference. I am a servant of the abbot if a monastic, and I am a servant of the king if I reside in his domain.

We are slaves of all creation, to the Mother of God, and ultimately to Christ Himself. There is no conflict in the "two masters" dichotomy you're setting up, because we are all One House, One Union, and One Communion in the Church; the Kingdom of God. To serve anything outside of the kingdom is to be in treason, but to serve the Mother of our Lord is to serve the Lord.

This is merely a Protestant hangup which is uncomfortable with the use of certain words in a "religious" setting, but comfortable with them in a "secular" one. Words like praise, serve, beseech, exalt, extol, magnify and the like are meant to be only for God in this mentality, which is ridiculous. We praise the virtues of people all the time (So-and-so is such a great actor. As they get the award, let us stand in applause). We draw attention to (magnify, as in literally blow-up the image of)  people of significance through song and story. We have requests of people constantly, every single day (Did you get those reports to me, Wilson?). It's just that in the Protestant mind, the only thing "out there" in the realm beyond our immediate material reality is either God or the demonic, so I think this concern of yours is coming from the Mother of God not being God, thus other, thus bad. Two masters comes in and you immediately think anything other than God Himself under any circumstances, and we find this unnecessary predicament.
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« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2010, 07:28:33 PM »

How do we then reconcile the concept of servant with this verse:

No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

http://bible.cc/matthew/6-24.htm

Are there any ECF's who referred to themselves as a servant (or slave) to the Theotokos?

It goes along with how a house divided against itself cannot stand. But since the Theotokos and the Lord Jesus Christ are part of the same house, a servant/slave of one is a servant of the other.

Christians are also all slaves and servants to one another. We wash each other's feet and bear each other's burdens, having everything in common. My service to a brother in need is not in conflict to my service to God, it is my service to God. What I do unto the least of them, I do unto Him. Likewise, all superiors are served in deference. I am a servant of the abbot if a monastic, and I am a servant of the king if I reside in his domain.

We are slaves of all creation, to the Mother of God, and ultimately to Christ Himself. There is no conflict in the "two masters" dichotomy you're setting up, because we are all One House, One Union, and One Communion in the Church; the Kingdom of God. To serve anything outside of the kingdom is to be in treason, but to serve the Mother of our Lord is to serve the Lord.

This is merely a Protestant hangup which is uncomfortable with the use of certain words in a "religious" setting, but comfortable with them in a "secular" one. Words like praise, serve, beseech, exalt, extol, magnify and the like are meant to be only for God in this mentality, which is ridiculous. We praise the virtues of people all the time (So-and-so is such a great actor. As they get the award, let us stand in applause). We draw attention to (magnify, as in literally blow-up the image of)  people of significance through song and story. We have requests of people constantly, every single day (Did you get those reports to me, Wilson?). It's just that in the Protestant mind, the only thing "out there" in the realm beyond our immediate material reality is either God or the demonic, so I think this concern of yours is coming from the Mother of God not being God, thus other, thus bad. Two masters comes in and you immediately think anything other than God Himself under any circumstances, and we find this unnecessary predicament.

I do see where you're coming from, and I thank you for your input.  However, evidentally St. Epiphanius saw the need to make mention in his writings the danger of extolling the virgin beyond what is proper, no doubt because people were tempted to do so during his time. The impression that I've gotten from the forums and elsewhere is that it is impossible to give the Lady too much glory (because when you give her glory, Christ receives it, etc.) Clearly, St. Epiphanius disagrees with this. So my question then is: what would be considered proper glory attributed to her, and what would be considered improper?

St. Epiphanius of Cyprus: "There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper"
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« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2010, 07:33:13 PM »

May be the word slave or servant means different then ,in how it's being used  today......

I have Serbian cirillica prayer book i read ,not as often as i use to ,it mentions in quite a few prayers slaves/servant,i interpreted it as part or like some of the flowery language like the great praises to the Mother of God........ Huh
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« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2010, 07:40:02 PM »

I do see where you're coming from, and I thank you for your input.  However, evidentally St. Epiphanius saw the need to make mention in his writings the danger of extolling the virgin beyond what is proper, no doubt because people were tempted to do so during his time. The impression that I've gotten from the forums and elsewhere is that it is impossible to give the Lady too much glory (because when you give her glory, Christ receives it, etc.) Clearly, St. Epiphanius disagrees with this. So my question then is: what would be considered proper glory attributed to her, and what would be considered improper?

Well, there is the simple possibility that the saint is wrong. You might agree with him, but then you might be wrong. I'm not really sure, because I'm not God.

If we are to assume that he is right in this matter, then the entire Orthodox theological and liturgical deposit seems to convey something like this (I'm making these up off the top of my head, by the way):

Proper Glory: You are the Queen of Heaven, the Mother of God, the Protectress and Intercessor of Christians at the throne of God. We praise and exalt your wonderful acts through the ages, for you are more honorable than the whole host of angels and the greatest of the saints, because who among them was chosen as a dwelling place for God? Your womb is more spacious than the heavens and the cosmos, because the universe cannot contain the glory of God, yet by a great mystery this glory is contained in you. We love you and we serve you, and ask that you deliver us from every need and sorrow by your prayers to your Son.

Improper Glory: Mother Mary, You are the most perfect goddess and we adore You as our Creator and Redeemer, for you have saved us from our sins by taking them upon yourself. We adore you as the Ultimate Reality, and we confess You as Goddess and give you all honor and worship. We offer sacrifices and oblations to You, that you may find favor with us and grant us eternal life by Your awesome power. True Goddess of Life, we worship and adore You.
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« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2010, 08:02:36 PM »

How do we then reconcile the concept of servant with this verse:

No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

http://bible.cc/matthew/6-24.htm

Are there any ECF's who referred to themselves as a servant (or slave) to the Theotokos?

It goes along with how a house divided against itself cannot stand. But since the Theotokos and the Lord Jesus Christ are part of the same house, a servant/slave of one is a servant of the other.

Christians are also all slaves and servants to one another. We wash each other's feet and bear each other's burdens, having everything in common. My service to a brother in need is not in conflict to my service to God, it is my service to God. What I do unto the least of them, I do unto Him. Likewise, all superiors are served in deference. I am a servant of the abbot if a monastic, and I am a servant of the king if I reside in his domain.

We are slaves of all creation, to the Mother of God, and ultimately to Christ Himself. There is no conflict in the "two masters" dichotomy you're setting up, because we are all One House, One Union, and One Communion in the Church; the Kingdom of God. To serve anything outside of the kingdom is to be in treason, but to serve the Mother of our Lord is to serve the Lord.

This is merely a Protestant hangup which is uncomfortable with the use of certain words in a "religious" setting, but comfortable with them in a "secular" one. Words like praise, serve, beseech, exalt, extol, magnify and the like are meant to be only for God in this mentality, which is ridiculous. We praise the virtues of people all the time (So-and-so is such a great actor. As they get the award, let us stand in applause). We draw attention to (magnify, as in literally blow-up the image of)  people of significance through song and story. We have requests of people constantly, every single day (Did you get those reports to me, Wilson?). It's just that in the Protestant mind, the only thing "out there" in the realm beyond our immediate material reality is either God or the demonic, so I think this concern of yours is coming from the Mother of God not being God, thus other, thus bad. Two masters comes in and you immediately think anything other than God Himself under any circumstances, and we find this unnecessary predicament.

I do see where you're coming from, and I thank you for your input.  However, evidentally St. Epiphanius saw the need to make mention in his writings the danger of extolling the virgin beyond what is proper, no doubt because people were tempted to do so during his time. The impression that I've gotten from the forums and elsewhere is that it is impossible to give the Lady too much glory (because when you give her glory, Christ receives it, etc.) Clearly, St. Epiphanius disagrees with this. So my question then is: what would be considered proper glory attributed to her, and what would be considered improper?

St. Epiphanius of Cyprus: "There is an equal harm in both these heresies, both when men demean the Virgin and when, on the contrary, they glorify Her beyond what is proper"

Something to keep in mind is that when you look for a spiritual guide, you are to serve that guide.  You are given a godmother, a priest, a bishop, a patriarch, and all that is asked of you is obedience.

One of the highest spiritual guides is the Theotokos.  We don't serve the Theotokos in the same way we serve Christ.  I serve her like I would serve anyone who carries the authority of Christ in them.  Does not St. Paul say, "Imitate me?"  That requires obedience and service to St. Paul.  It is said in one verse, "Call no man father," and yet in other verses St. Paul addresses to his flock calling them "children," and we also at the very least address our own biological father, "father."  Do we not serve our own parents and honor them?  In one place it says, "he who does not hate his father, mother..." and yet in another it says "honor your father and mother."  Things have to be taken in context of what is said.  As long as one differentiates between serving the Theotokos and serving Christ, then I don't see any problem with someone saying, "a servant to the Theotokos."  We have many Arabic names with "abd" in them (meaning servant), so sometimes people have names like Abd el Salib (servant of the Cross), Abd el Shaheed (servant of the martyr), etc. that have long traditions.  We serve those who served Christ that we may know how to serve Christ best.
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« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2010, 11:46:42 PM »

What then does it mean to serve the Theotokos? I understand how we can serve those on earth, by following their guidance and obeying them (or in another way, giving them what they need, in the case of serving the poor). However, what type of service are we supposed to render to the Theotokos or the rest of the saints? Is this done merely by imitating their obedience to her Son?
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« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2010, 01:31:54 AM »

What then does it mean to serve the Theotokos? I understand how we can serve those on earth, by following their guidance and obeying them (or in another way, giving them what they need, in the case of serving the poor). However, what type of service are we supposed to render to the Theotokos or the rest of the saints? Is this done merely by imitating their obedience to her Son?

Yes, imitate the Theotokos.  We respect her for her humility, her obedience, her readiness, her prayerfulness, her love towards God and the cause of salvation to mankind, her undying support to the Lord even in the midst of the hostility against Christ in His suffering and crucifixion, her motherhood, her bearing God (physically and spiritually), and her service and prayers for the human race.
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« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2010, 01:39:23 AM »

What then does it mean to serve the Theotokos? I understand how we can serve those on earth, by following their guidance and obeying them (or in another way, giving them what they need, in the case of serving the poor). However, what type of service are we supposed to render to the Theotokos or the rest of the saints? Is this done merely by imitating their obedience to her Son?

Yes, imitate the Theotokos.  We respect her for her humility, her obedience, her readiness, her prayerfulness, her love towards God and the cause of salvation to mankind, her undying support to the Lord even in the midst of the hostility against Christ in His suffering and crucifixion, her motherhood, her bearing God (physically and spiritually), and her service and prayers for the human race.

So this is all that slavery and servanthood mean in this context? Imitation? I suppose I can buy that.
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« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2010, 01:48:58 AM »

What then does it mean to serve the Theotokos? I understand how we can serve those on earth, by following their guidance and obeying them (or in another way, giving them what they need, in the case of serving the poor). However, what type of service are we supposed to render to the Theotokos or the rest of the saints? Is this done merely by imitating their obedience to her Son?

Yes, imitate the Theotokos.  We respect her for her humility, her obedience, her readiness, her prayerfulness, her love towards God and the cause of salvation to mankind, her undying support to the Lord even in the midst of the hostility against Christ in His suffering and crucifixion, her motherhood, her bearing God (physically and spiritually), and her service and prayers for the human race.

So this is all that slavery and servanthood mean in this context? Imitation? I suppose I can buy that.

Yes.  Take it in this form that to imitate the saint in her holiness is as if obeying her commands to be righteous before God.  Every church building that is named after a saint dedicates their service in imitating that particular kind of holiness of that saint.  When reading the New Testament, whatever command St. Paul, St. Peter, St. Jude gives us, and we obey, we serve them as well.  We serve Christ therefore through the imitation and obedience of His saints and the Church.
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« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2010, 03:59:17 PM »

What then does it mean to serve the Theotokos? I understand how we can serve those on earth, by following their guidance and obeying them (or in another way, giving them what they need, in the case of serving the poor). However, what type of service are we supposed to render to the Theotokos or the rest of the saints? Is this done merely by imitating their obedience to her Son?

Yes, imitate the Theotokos.  We respect her for her humility, her obedience, her readiness, her prayerfulness, her love towards God and the cause of salvation to mankind, her undying support to the Lord even in the midst of the hostility against Christ in His suffering and crucifixion, her motherhood, her bearing God (physically and spiritually), and her service and prayers for the human race.

So this is all that slavery and servanthood mean in this context? Imitation? I suppose I can buy that.

Yes.  Take it in this form that to imitate the saint in her holiness is as if obeying her commands to be righteous before God.  Every church building that is named after a saint dedicates their service in imitating that particular kind of holiness of that saint.  When reading the New Testament, whatever command St. Paul, St. Peter, St. Jude gives us, and we obey, we serve them as well.  We serve Christ therefore through the imitation and obedience of His saints and the Church.

Apparently this was not a Catholic versus Orthodox issue after all.  I did not think it was.
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« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2010, 09:36:34 PM »

I would be rather concerned if we were to insist on limiting the manner in which the Theotokos can guide us to simply be as a model to imitate.
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« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2010, 10:59:14 PM »

If you are someone's slave, that someone's mother, or wife, or child is also your master.
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« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2010, 11:04:13 PM »

What then does it mean to serve the Theotokos? I understand how we can serve those on earth, by following their guidance and obeying them (or in another way, giving them what they need, in the case of serving the poor). However, what type of service are we supposed to render to the Theotokos or the rest of the saints? Is this done merely by imitating their obedience to her Son?

Yes, imitate the Theotokos.  We respect her for her humility, her obedience, her readiness, her prayerfulness, her love towards God and the cause of salvation to mankind, her undying support to the Lord even in the midst of the hostility against Christ in His suffering and crucifixion, her motherhood, her bearing God (physically and spiritually), and her service and prayers for the human race.

So this is all that slavery and servanthood mean in this context? Imitation? I suppose I can buy that.

Yes.  Take it in this form that to imitate the saint in her holiness is as if obeying her commands to be righteous before God.  Every church building that is named after a saint dedicates their service in imitating that particular kind of holiness of that saint.  When reading the New Testament, whatever command St. Paul, St. Peter, St. Jude gives us, and we obey, we serve them as well.  We serve Christ therefore through the imitation and obedience of His saints and the Church.

Apparently this was not a Catholic versus Orthodox issue after all.  I did not think it was.


If anyone made it so, they're crossing the line, and I would really question that person's Romophobia.
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« Reply #44 on: December 25, 2010, 02:01:39 PM »

I would be rather concerned if we were to insist on limiting the manner in which the Theotokos can guide us to simply be as a model to imitate.

How else can we 'serve' her, then?
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« Reply #45 on: December 25, 2010, 02:03:35 PM »

If you are someone's slave, that someone's mother, or wife, or child is also your master.

I'm not sure this has much application in the given context...unless you think otherwise?
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« Reply #46 on: December 25, 2010, 02:04:58 PM »

What then does it mean to serve the Theotokos? I understand how we can serve those on earth, by following their guidance and obeying them (or in another way, giving them what they need, in the case of serving the poor). However, what type of service are we supposed to render to the Theotokos or the rest of the saints? Is this done merely by imitating their obedience to her Son?

Yes, imitate the Theotokos.  We respect her for her humility, her obedience, her readiness, her prayerfulness, her love towards God and the cause of salvation to mankind, her undying support to the Lord even in the midst of the hostility against Christ in His suffering and crucifixion, her motherhood, her bearing God (physically and spiritually), and her service and prayers for the human race.

So this is all that slavery and servanthood mean in this context? Imitation? I suppose I can buy that.

Yes.  Take it in this form that to imitate the saint in her holiness is as if obeying her commands to be righteous before God.  Every church building that is named after a saint dedicates their service in imitating that particular kind of holiness of that saint.  When reading the New Testament, whatever command St. Paul, St. Peter, St. Jude gives us, and we obey, we serve them as well.  We serve Christ therefore through the imitation and obedience of His saints and the Church.

Apparently this was not a Catholic versus Orthodox issue after all.  I did not think it was.


If anyone made it so, they're crossing the line, and I would really question that person's Romophobia.

It started out as a Catholic vs Orthodox issue, and I'll be the first to admit that.
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« Reply #47 on: December 25, 2010, 04:14:01 PM »

If you are someone's slave, that someone's mother, or wife, or child is also your master.

I'm not sure this has much application in the given context...unless you think otherwise?

It has plenty of application. As Christians, we are members of God's household. Just as God is our Father, and Christ our Brother, the Theotokos is our Mother. Just as Christ is our Master, the Theotokos is our Mistress. Christ is the King; the Theotokos is the Queen Mother. The Theotokos is the Bride of God, and His Mother. If we are servants of God, we are also servants of God's Mother.
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« Reply #48 on: December 25, 2010, 04:22:13 PM »



The Theotokos Being the Bride Of God Kind of throws Me ...
I've Never Heard this Ever....
Sounds like something the Latins like to say about her, being Spouse of the Holy Spirit..... Grin


If you are someone's slave, that someone's mother, or wife, or child is also your master.

I'm not sure this has much application in the given context...unless you think otherwise?

It has plenty of application. As Christians, we are members of God's household. Just as God is our Father, and Christ our Brother, the Theotokos is our Mother. Just as Christ is our Master, the Theotokos is our Mistress. Christ is the King; the Theotokos is the Queen Mother. The Theotokos is the Bride of God, and His Mother. If we are servants of God, we are also servants of God's Mother.
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« Reply #49 on: December 25, 2010, 07:38:16 PM »



The Theotokos Being the Bride Of God Kind of throws Me ...
I've Never Heard this Ever....
Sounds like something the Latins like to say about her, being Spouse of the Holy Spirit..... Grin


If you are someone's slave, that someone's mother, or wife, or child is also your master.

I'm not sure this has much application in the given context...unless you think otherwise?

It has plenty of application. As Christians, we are members of God's household. Just as God is our Father, and Christ our Brother, the Theotokos is our Mother. Just as Christ is our Master, the Theotokos is our Mistress. Christ is the King; the Theotokos is the Queen Mother. The Theotokos is the Bride of God, and His Mother. If we are servants of God, we are also servants of God's Mother.

From the Supplicatory Canon to the Most Holy Theotokos:
Quote from: from Ode III
I pray thee, O Virgin, to dispel the tumult of my soul and the storm of my grief; for thou, O Bride of God, hast given birth to Christ, the Prince of Peace, O only immaculate one.
Quote from: from Ode IV
The turmoil of my passions, and the storm of my sins do thou bestill, thou who gavest birth to the Lord and Pilot, O thou Bride of God.
Quote from: from Ode V
Dispel the darkness of my sins, O Bride of God, by the radiance of thy splendor, for thou didst bear the Light Divine and Pre-eternal.

From the Lamentations for the Dormition of the Theotokos:
Quote from: verse 9, first stasis
Now the Bridegroom calls you, / to rejoice, Bride of God. / in a manner both divine and most beautiful / in the Bridal Chamber, holy and divine.
Quote from: verse 8, second stasis
Virgin Bride of God, / who did not descend to us from Heaven, / by her giving birth unto heaven’s King / from this world unto the heavens now ascends
Quote from: verse 19
Virgin Bride of God! / When you enter into heaven’s kingdom, / Grant that you remember the faithful here / who now honor your dormition with our hymns.

From Little Vespers for the Entry of the Theotokos:
Quote
Ye virgins, joyfully bearing torches, attend the pure Virgin on her way, as
she enters the Holy of Holies, the Bride of the King of all.
cf. Psalm 44:
Quote from: Psalm 44(45):13-15 (KJV)
The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. [14] She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. [15] With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.
From Great Vespers for the same feast:
Quote
After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind.
And from Matins:
Quote
Three years old in the flesh and many years old in the spirit, more spacious
than the heavens and higher than the powers above, let the Bride of God be
praised in song.
Quote
O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men.

From the Akathist canon:
Quote from: from Ode I
Rejoice, Virgin Bride of God, restoration of Adam and death of hell.  Rejoice, all-immaculate one, palace of the King of all.  Rejoice, fiery throne of the Almighty.
Quote from: from Ode III
Rejoice, only door through which the Word alone hath passed.  By thy birthgiving, O Lady, thou hast broken the bars and gates of hell.  Rejoice, Bride of God, divine entry of the saved.
Quote
Quote from: from Ode V
Rejoice, most immaculate one, who gavest birth to the Way of life, and who savedst the world from the flood of sin.  Rejoice, Bride of God, tidings fearful to tell and hear.  Rejoice, dwelling-place of the Master of all creation.
Quote from: from Ode VII
Rejoice, Bride of God, who gavest birth to the Healer of all; mystical staff, that didst blossom with the unfading Flower.  Rejoice, O Lady, through whom we are filled with joy and inherit life.

Just a few of many, many examples.
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« Reply #50 on: December 25, 2010, 07:57:08 PM »

Very Nice Flowery Language..Now where does Holy Orthodoxy say explicitly to whom she's a bride too ..remember we Have One God the Most Holy Trinity....Father, Son and Most Holy Spirit...Or is this considered one of the Many Mysteries we can't give a answer to.....





The Theotokos Being the Bride Of God Kind of throws Me ...
I've Never Heard this Ever....
Sounds like something the Latins like to say about her, being Spouse of the Holy Spirit..... Grin


If you are someone's slave, that someone's mother, or wife, or child is also your master.

I'm not sure this has much application in the given context...unless you think otherwise?

It has plenty of application. As Christians, we are members of God's household. Just as God is our Father, and Christ our Brother, the Theotokos is our Mother. Just as Christ is our Master, the Theotokos is our Mistress. Christ is the King; the Theotokos is the Queen Mother. The Theotokos is the Bride of God, and His Mother. If we are servants of God, we are also servants of God's Mother.

From the Supplicatory Canon to the Most Holy Theotokos:
Quote from: from Ode III
I pray thee, O Virgin, to dispel the tumult of my soul and the storm of my grief; for thou, O Bride of God, hast given birth to Christ, the Prince of Peace, O only immaculate one.
Quote from: from Ode IV
The turmoil of my passions, and the storm of my sins do thou bestill, thou who gavest birth to the Lord and Pilot, O thou Bride of God.
Quote from: from Ode V
Dispel the darkness of my sins, O Bride of God, by the radiance of thy splendor, for thou didst bear the Light Divine and Pre-eternal.

From the Lamentations for the Dormition of the Theotokos:
Quote from: verse 9, first stasis
Now the Bridegroom calls you, / to rejoice, Bride of God. / in a manner both divine and most beautiful / in the Bridal Chamber, holy and divine.
Quote from: verse 8, second stasis
Virgin Bride of God, / who did not descend to us from Heaven, / by her giving birth unto heaven’s King / from this world unto the heavens now ascends
Quote from: verse 19
Virgin Bride of God! / When you enter into heaven’s kingdom, / Grant that you remember the faithful here / who now honor your dormition with our hymns.

From Little Vespers for the Entry of the Theotokos:
Quote
Ye virgins, joyfully bearing torches, attend the pure Virgin on her way, as
she enters the Holy of Holies, the Bride of the King of all.
cf. Psalm 44:
Quote from: Psalm 44(45):13-15 (KJV)
The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. [14] She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. [15] With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.
From Great Vespers for the same feast:
Quote
After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind.
And from Matins:
Quote
Three years old in the flesh and many years old in the spirit, more spacious
than the heavens and higher than the powers above, let the Bride of God be
praised in song.
Quote
O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men.

From the Akathist canon:
Quote from: from Ode I
Rejoice, Virgin Bride of God, restoration of Adam and death of hell.  Rejoice, all-immaculate one, palace of the King of all.  Rejoice, fiery throne of the Almighty.
Quote from: from Ode III
Rejoice, only door through which the Word alone hath passed.  By thy birthgiving, O Lady, thou hast broken the bars and gates of hell.  Rejoice, Bride of God, divine entry of the saved.
Quote
Quote from: from Ode V
Rejoice, most immaculate one, who gavest birth to the Way of life, and who savedst the world from the flood of sin.  Rejoice, Bride of God, tidings fearful to tell and hear.  Rejoice, dwelling-place of the Master of all creation.
Quote from: from Ode VII
Rejoice, Bride of God, who gavest birth to the Healer of all; mystical staff, that didst blossom with the unfading Flower.  Rejoice, O Lady, through whom we are filled with joy and inherit life.

Just a few of many, many examples.
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« Reply #51 on: December 25, 2010, 08:05:40 PM »



Very Nice Flowery Language..Now where does Holy Orthodox say explicitly to whom she's a bride too ..remember we Have One God the Most Holy Trinity....Father, Son and Most Holy Spirit...





The Theotokos Being the Bride Of God Kind of throws Me ...
I've Never Heard this Ever....
Sounds like something the Latins like to say about her, being Spouse of the Holy Spirit..... Grin


If you are someone's slave, that someone's mother, or wife, or child is also your master.

I'm not sure this has much application in the given context...unless you think otherwise?

It has plenty of application. As Christians, we are members of God's household. Just as God is our Father, and Christ our Brother, the Theotokos is our Mother. Just as Christ is our Master, the Theotokos is our Mistress. Christ is the King; the Theotokos is the Queen Mother. The Theotokos is the Bride of God, and His Mother. If we are servants of God, we are also servants of God's Mother.

From the Supplicatory Canon to the Most Holy Theotokos:
Quote from: from Ode III
I pray thee, O Virgin, to dispel the tumult of my soul and the storm of my grief; for thou, O Bride of God, hast given birth to Christ, the Prince of Peace, O only immaculate one.
Quote from: from Ode IV
The turmoil of my passions, and the storm of my sins do thou bestill, thou who gavest birth to the Lord and Pilot, O thou Bride of God.
Quote from: from Ode V
Dispel the darkness of my sins, O Bride of God, by the radiance of thy splendor, for thou didst bear the Light Divine and Pre-eternal.

From the Lamentations for the Dormition of the Theotokos:
Quote from: verse 9, first stasis
Now the Bridegroom calls you, / to rejoice, Bride of God. / in a manner both divine and most beautiful / in the Bridal Chamber, holy and divine.
Quote from: verse 8, second stasis
Virgin Bride of God, / who did not descend to us from Heaven, / by her giving birth unto heaven’s King / from this world unto the heavens now ascends
Quote from: verse 19
Virgin Bride of God! / When you enter into heaven’s kingdom, / Grant that you remember the faithful here / who now honor your dormition with our hymns.

From Little Vespers for the Entry of the Theotokos:
Quote
Ye virgins, joyfully bearing torches, attend the pure Virgin on her way, as
she enters the Holy of Holies, the Bride of the King of all.
cf. Psalm 44:
Quote from: Psalm 44(45):13-15 (KJV)
The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. [14] She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. [15] With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.
From Great Vespers for the same feast:
Quote
After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind.
And from Matins:
Quote
Three years old in the flesh and many years old in the spirit, more spacious
than the heavens and higher than the powers above, let the Bride of God be
praised in song.
Quote
O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men.

From the Akathist canon:
Quote from: from Ode I
Rejoice, Virgin Bride of God, restoration of Adam and death of hell.  Rejoice, all-immaculate one, palace of the King of all.  Rejoice, fiery throne of the Almighty.
Quote from: from Ode III
Rejoice, only door through which the Word alone hath passed.  By thy birthgiving, O Lady, thou hast broken the bars and gates of hell.  Rejoice, Bride of God, divine entry of the saved.
Quote
Quote from: from Ode V
Rejoice, most immaculate one, who gavest birth to the Way of life, and who savedst the world from the flood of sin.  Rejoice, Bride of God, tidings fearful to tell and hear.  Rejoice, dwelling-place of the Master of all creation.
Quote from: from Ode VII
Rejoice, Bride of God, who gavest birth to the Healer of all; mystical staff, that didst blossom with the unfading Flower.  Rejoice, O Lady, through whom we are filled with joy and inherit life.

Just a few of many, many examples.
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« Reply #52 on: December 25, 2010, 08:11:39 PM »


 Grin Grin Grin Grin







Very Nice Flowery Language..Now where does Holy Orthodox say explicitly to whom she's a bride too ..remember we Have One God the Most Holy Trinity....Father, Son and Most Holy Spirit...





The Theotokos Being the Bride Of God Kind of throws Me ...
I've Never Heard this Ever....
Sounds like something the Latins like to say about her, being Spouse of the Holy Spirit..... Grin


If you are someone's slave, that someone's mother, or wife, or child is also your master.

I'm not sure this has much application in the given context...unless you think otherwise?

It has plenty of application. As Christians, we are members of God's household. Just as God is our Father, and Christ our Brother, the Theotokos is our Mother. Just as Christ is our Master, the Theotokos is our Mistress. Christ is the King; the Theotokos is the Queen Mother. The Theotokos is the Bride of God, and His Mother. If we are servants of God, we are also servants of God's Mother.

From the Supplicatory Canon to the Most Holy Theotokos:
Quote from: from Ode III
I pray thee, O Virgin, to dispel the tumult of my soul and the storm of my grief; for thou, O Bride of God, hast given birth to Christ, the Prince of Peace, O only immaculate one.
Quote from: from Ode IV
The turmoil of my passions, and the storm of my sins do thou bestill, thou who gavest birth to the Lord and Pilot, O thou Bride of God.
Quote from: from Ode V
Dispel the darkness of my sins, O Bride of God, by the radiance of thy splendor, for thou didst bear the Light Divine and Pre-eternal.

From the Lamentations for the Dormition of the Theotokos:
Quote from: verse 9, first stasis
Now the Bridegroom calls you, / to rejoice, Bride of God. / in a manner both divine and most beautiful / in the Bridal Chamber, holy and divine.
Quote from: verse 8, second stasis
Virgin Bride of God, / who did not descend to us from Heaven, / by her giving birth unto heaven’s King / from this world unto the heavens now ascends
Quote from: verse 19
Virgin Bride of God! / When you enter into heaven’s kingdom, / Grant that you remember the faithful here / who now honor your dormition with our hymns.

From Little Vespers for the Entry of the Theotokos:
Quote
Ye virgins, joyfully bearing torches, attend the pure Virgin on her way, as
she enters the Holy of Holies, the Bride of the King of all.
cf. Psalm 44:
Quote from: Psalm 44(45):13-15 (KJV)
The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. [14] She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. [15] With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.
From Great Vespers for the same feast:
Quote
After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind.
And from Matins:
Quote
Three years old in the flesh and many years old in the spirit, more spacious
than the heavens and higher than the powers above, let the Bride of God be
praised in song.
Quote
O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men.

From the Akathist canon:
Quote from: from Ode I
Rejoice, Virgin Bride of God, restoration of Adam and death of hell.  Rejoice, all-immaculate one, palace of the King of all.  Rejoice, fiery throne of the Almighty.
Quote from: from Ode III
Rejoice, only door through which the Word alone hath passed.  By thy birthgiving, O Lady, thou hast broken the bars and gates of hell.  Rejoice, Bride of God, divine entry of the saved.
Quote
Quote from: from Ode V
Rejoice, most immaculate one, who gavest birth to the Way of life, and who savedst the world from the flood of sin.  Rejoice, Bride of God, tidings fearful to tell and hear.  Rejoice, dwelling-place of the Master of all creation.
Quote from: from Ode VII
Rejoice, Bride of God, who gavest birth to the Healer of all; mystical staff, that didst blossom with the unfading Flower.  Rejoice, O Lady, through whom we are filled with joy and inherit life.

Just a few of many, many examples.
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« Reply #53 on: December 25, 2010, 08:34:42 PM »

You seem to think the honor we render the Theotokos with our lips is just meaningless "flowery language", and that you are not actually bound to honor her with your heart. We do not honor the Theotokos out of formality; we do it because she deserves it. In her liturgical services, the Church proclaims the truth of Christ. We do not worship God with "vain repetitions" or so-called flowery language. My post above does not contain examples of flowery language, it contains examples of solemn truth proclaimed in the Spirit by the Church.

In short, the liturgical tradition of the Church is accurate, authoritative, and cannot be dismissed as "flowery language".

As to "spouse of the Holy Spirit", AFAIK that is a specifically RC term. I don't recall having heard it used in an Orthodox Church.

But "Bride of God" is definitely true and definitely part of our liturgical tradition and prayer life.

Even if "Bride of God" weren't part of our tradition (which it clearly, undeniably is), the point is still the same when you consider Mary as the "Mother of God". As God's Mother she is our Mother, Queen, and Mistress/Lady (Slavonic владичица).

Quote from: The Orthodox Veneration of the Mother of God, by St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco
THE ORTHODOX CHURCH teaches about the Mother of God that which Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture have informed concerning Her, and daily it glorifies Her in its temples, asking Her help and defense. Knowing that She is pleased only by those praises which correspond to Her actual glory, the Holy Fathers and hymn-writers have entreated Her and Her Son to teach them how to hymn Her. “Set a rampart about my mind, 0 my Christ, for I make bold to sing the praise of Thy pure Mother” (Ikos of the Dormition). “The Church teaches that Christ was truly born of Mary Ever-Virgin” (St. Epiphanius, “True Word Concerning the Faith”). “It is essential for us to confess that the holy Ever-Virgin Mary is actually Theotokos (Birth-giver of God), so as not to fall into blasphemy. For those who deny that the Holy Virgin is actually Theotokos are no longer believers, but disciples of the Pharisees and Sadducees” (St. Ephraim the Syrian, “To John the Monk”).
...
There is no intellect or words to express the greatness of Her Who was born in the sinful human race but became “more honorable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim.”“Seeing the grace of the secret mysteries of God made manifest and clearly fulfilled in the Virgin, I rejoice; and I know not how to understand the strange and secret manner whereby the Undefiled has been revealed as alone chosen above all creation, visible and spiritual. Therefore, wishing to praise Her, I am struck dumb with amazement in both mind and speech. Yet still I dare to proclaim and magnify Her: She is indeed the heavenly Tabernacle” (Ikos of the Entry into the Temple). “Every tongue is at a loss to praise Thee as is due; even a spirit from the world above is filled with dizziness, when it seeks to sing Thy praises, 0 Theotokos. But since Thou art good, accept our faith. Thou knowest well our love inspired by God, for Thou art the Protector of Christians, and we magnify Thee” (Irmos of the 9th Canticle, Service of the Theophany).
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 08:57:18 PM by JLatimer » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: December 25, 2010, 09:07:01 PM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.
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« Reply #55 on: December 25, 2010, 09:22:33 PM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.

Now Your explanation i  agree with ......It makes more sense and it's a mystery to a point..... laugh
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« Reply #56 on: December 25, 2010, 11:36:30 PM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.

well said...
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« Reply #57 on: December 25, 2010, 11:54:07 PM »

I just realized I said "bridge" in areas where is should be "bride," but I'm glad people got the message :-D
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« Reply #58 on: December 26, 2010, 12:33:25 AM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.

As to "bride", I would tend to agree with you. As to "mother"...

There are many theoforoi, but only one Theotokos.
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« Reply #59 on: December 26, 2010, 12:40:32 AM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.

As to "bride", I would tend to agree with you. As to "mother"...

There are many theoforoi, but only one Theotokos.

There are beholders of God, there are bearers of God, and there are even mothers, brothers, and sisters of Christ (Mark 3:35).  The Theotokos is the most perfect one of them, so she holds a unique place as truly the one who gave birth to God the Logos Incarnate.
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« Reply #60 on: December 26, 2010, 01:59:37 AM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.

As to "bride", I would tend to agree with you. As to "mother"...

There are many theoforoi, but only one Theotokos.

There are beholders of God, there are bearers of God, and there are even mothers, brothers, and sisters of Christ (Mark 3:35).  The Theotokos is the most perfect one of them, so she holds a unique place as truly the one who gave birth to God the Logos Incarnate.

Agreed.
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« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2011, 09:55:21 PM »

I would be rather concerned if we were to insist on limiting the manner in which the Theotokos can guide us to simply be as a model to imitate.

How else can we 'serve' her, then?

By obeying her commands (John 2:5).

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« Reply #62 on: January 03, 2011, 09:59:55 PM »

Now where does Holy Orthodoxy say explicitly to whom she's a bride to

Did you not read the excerpts that were posted? They explicitly say she's a bride to God.
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« Reply #63 on: January 03, 2011, 10:06:25 PM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.

As to "bride", I would tend to agree with you. As to "mother"...

There are many theoforoi, but only one Theotokos.

The problem here is that there are other forms of motherhood that would not be qualified by Theotokos, which explicitly refers to physically giving birth.
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« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2011, 10:12:41 PM »

Just to put things in perspective, since we are part of the Church, we are symbolically and collectively a bridge to Christ.  In addition, in the Coptic Church, many female saints particularly have been called "pure bride," which the Theotokos the most beautiful of them all.  In other words, again, you can see the idea of being a "bride to God" or a "bridge to Christ" as again an example that we all are brides as well.  It's a mystery.  Anything we call the Theotokos is not something without reach of each individual to be; she just happens to be the most perfect example of each of them.

As to "bride", I would tend to agree with you. As to "mother"...

There are many theoforoi, but only one Theotokos.

The problem here is that there are other forms of motherhood that would not be qualified by Theotokos, which explicitly refers to physically giving birth.

Agreed. I meant mother in the physical, biological sense; but of course,
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« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2011, 10:32:43 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox hymns praise the Holy Theotokos As Bride Unwedded....So now what.... Grin

Scroll down to the video, click watch where it mentions Bride Unwedded.....http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/kursk-bluefield
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« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2011, 10:43:05 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox hymns praise the Holy Theotokos As Bride Unwedded....So now what.... Grin

Scroll down to the video, click watch where it mentions Bride Unwedded.....http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/kursk-bluefield

"Bride Unwedded" is poetic language which refers to her Ever-Virginity.  This "flowery language" has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is your insistence that the Theotokos is not the "Bride of God" even though it is patently obvious that the Orthodox Church sees her as such.  It's not our fault that you would rather engage in heretical beliefs than join in traditional Holy Orthodoxy..... Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2011, 10:47:26 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox hymns praise the Holy Theotokos As Bride Unwedded....So now what.... Grin

Scroll down to the video, click watch where it mentions Bride Unwedded.....http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/kursk-bluefield

"Bride Unwedded" is poetic language which refers to her Ever-Virginity.  This "flowery language" has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is your insistence that the Theotokos is not the "Bride of God" even though it is patently obvious that the Orthodox Church sees her as such.  It's not our fault that you would rather engage in heretical beliefs than join in traditional Holy Orthodoxy..... Grin Grin Grin

Are you sure your latin slip isn't showing....Sound very Latin ,or what they say... Grin Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2011, 10:53:18 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox hymns praise the Holy Theotokos As Bride Unwedded....So now what.... Grin

Scroll down to the video, click watch where it mentions Bride Unwedded.....http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/kursk-bluefield

"Bride Unwedded" is poetic language which refers to her Ever-Virginity.  This "flowery language" has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is your insistence that the Theotokos is not the "Bride of God" even though it is patently obvious that the Orthodox Church sees her as such.  It's not our fault that you would rather engage in heretical beliefs than join in traditional Holy Orthodoxy..... Grin Grin Grin

Are you sure your latin slip isn't showing....Sound very Latin ,or what they say... Grin Grin Grin Grin

Whatever.  The simple fact is that you're engaging in heresy and I suggest you ask the saintly Fr. Ambrose to guide you out of the mouth of Hell where you are sure to end up if you continue to deny that the Theotokos is the Bride of God as per traditional Orthodoxy as quoted in the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos, as already noted. police
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« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2011, 10:54:51 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox hymns praise the Holy Theotokos As Bride Unwedded....So now what.... Grin

Scroll down to the video, click watch where it mentions Bride Unwedded.....http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/kursk-bluefield

"Bride Unwedded" is poetic language which refers to her Ever-Virginity.  This "flowery language" has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is your insistence that the Theotokos is not the "Bride of God" even though it is patently obvious that the Orthodox Church sees her as such.  It's not our fault that you would rather engage in heretical beliefs than join in traditional Holy Orthodoxy..... Grin Grin Grin

Are you sure your latin slip isn't showing....Sound very Latin ,or what they say... Grin Grin Grin Grin

Whatever.  The simple fact is that you're engaging in heresy and I suggest you ask the saintly Fr. Ambrose to guide you out of the mouth of Hell where you are sure to end up if you continue to deny that the Theotokos is the Bride of God as per traditional Orthodoxy as quoted in the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos, as already noted. police

Father Ambrose bailing him out of heresy seems to becoming the pattern of these threads now.
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« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2011, 11:03:10 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox hymns praise the Holy Theotokos As Bride Unwedded....So now what.... Grin

Scroll down to the video, click watch where it mentions Bride Unwedded.....http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/kursk-bluefield

"Bride Unwedded" is poetic language which refers to her Ever-Virginity.  This "flowery language" has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is your insistence that the Theotokos is not the "Bride of God" even though it is patently obvious that the Orthodox Church sees her as such.  It's not our fault that you would rather engage in heretical beliefs than join in traditional Holy Orthodoxy..... Grin Grin Grin

Are you sure your latin slip isn't showing....Sound very Latin ,or what they say... Grin Grin Grin Grin

Whatever.  The simple fact is that you're engaging in heresy and I suggest you ask the saintly Fr. Ambrose to guide you out of the mouth of Hell where you are sure to end up if you continue to deny that the Theotokos is the Bride of God as per traditional Orthodoxy as quoted in the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos, as already noted. police

So if we don't refer to the Theotokos as the Bride of God we are going to hell? Sounds a bit extreme... Shocked
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« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2011, 11:05:41 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox hymns praise the Holy Theotokos As Bride Unwedded....So now what.... Grin

Scroll down to the video, click watch where it mentions Bride Unwedded.....http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/kursk-bluefield

"Bride Unwedded" is poetic language which refers to her Ever-Virginity.  This "flowery language" has nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is your insistence that the Theotokos is not the "Bride of God" even though it is patently obvious that the Orthodox Church sees her as such.  It's not our fault that you would rather engage in heretical beliefs than join in traditional Holy Orthodoxy..... Grin Grin Grin

Are you sure your latin slip isn't showing....Sound very Latin ,or what they say... Grin Grin Grin Grin

Whatever.  The simple fact is that you're engaging in heresy and I suggest you ask the saintly Fr. Ambrose to guide you out of the mouth of Hell where you are sure to end up if you continue to deny that the Theotokos is the Bride of God as per traditional Orthodoxy as quoted in the Akathist Hymn to the Theotokos, as already noted. police

So if we don't refer to the Theotokos as the Bride of God we are going to hell? Sounds a bit extreme... Shocked

According to traditional Orthodoxy...as preached in the Serbian church...if you are a heretic, you won't go to heaven...so say the Holy Serbian ORthodox saints.... Grin Grin
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« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2011, 11:41:05 AM »

Can we please return to the OP and refrain from discussing the nature of the Immaculate Conception (in a thread that only has a tangential relationship to that Roman Catholic dogma).  There is a thread (dozens, actually) where the distinction of ancestral and original sin/IC is discussed.  Here is the most recent

The same goes for the discussion of the personhood of Christ and how it relates to the the title of Theotokos for Mary in regards to the ACOE and Orthodox (and Roman Catholic) Christianity.

The discussions have been split off and can be found at the linked threads above.  The next person who posts in this thread on anything other than the topic of servitude v. slavery to the Theotokos is getting an official warning.

So speaketh the Librarian who needs things to remain organized.  laugh police
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« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2011, 12:36:27 PM »

Thank you!
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« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2011, 01:51:08 PM »

I've never Heard  that one can lose ones salvation over this .....God has Chosen Mary as his Handmaiden servant to bare His Only Begotten ,she said Yes thy will be done.....Scripture Doesn't mention anything about  betrothed,  other than to St Joseph ... Being Bride Unwedded or wedded to God , shall  remain a mystery...And i Can Go with that.... laugh
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« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2011, 03:44:06 PM »

I've never Heard  that one can lose ones salvation over this .....God has Chosen Mary as his Handmaiden servant to bare His Only Begotten ,she said Yes thy will be done.....Scripture Doesn't mention anything about  betrothed,  other than to St Joseph ... Being Bride Unwedded or wedded to God , shall  remain a mystery...And i Can Go with that.... laugh
Scripture doesn't mention praying to Mary either. So what is your point?
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« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2011, 05:42:53 PM »

Actually scripture does say something on this topic : that WE are the bride of Christ (not somebody else):



Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

-Ephesians 5:23

see also Revelation 21:9



 and...


But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
-Galatians 1:8




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« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2011, 07:27:51 PM »

Wasn't I discussing the nature of Original Sin vis a vis Mary in this thread? Perhaps I've gotten myself lost.
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« Reply #78 on: January 06, 2011, 12:40:37 AM »

Wasn't I discussing the nature of Original Sin vis a vis Mary in this thread? Perhaps I've gotten myself lost.

The thread was split. See Shultz post above. Most likely your discussion is somewhere in there. Original sin doesn't really have much to do with the topic at hand.
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« Reply #79 on: January 06, 2011, 12:42:55 AM »

Actually scripture does say something on this topic : that WE are the bride of Christ (not somebody else):



Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

-Ephesians 5:23

see also Revelation 21:9



 and...


But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
-Galatians 1:8






Yes, we are the bride of Christ collectively. I don't think the Church says that Mary is the bride of Christ exclusively, but the bride of God in general (and often it qualifies her as the unwedded bride of God).

I don't calling her this is a dogmatic statement in any way, just a name out of affection, if you will.
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« Reply #80 on: January 06, 2011, 01:36:55 AM »

Wasn't I discussing the nature of Original Sin vis a vis Mary in this thread? Perhaps I've gotten myself lost.

The thread was split. See Shultz post above. Most likely your discussion is somewhere in there. Original sin doesn't really have much to do with the topic at hand.

Yeah, I just saw a few posts related to original sin in the thread that Schultz linked to.
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« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2011, 04:59:13 PM »

Quote
I don't calling her this is a dogmatic statement in any way, just a name out of affection, if you will.

Again, the Church's hymnography is by it's very nature dogmatic, not "affectionate" or "flowery". When was the last time you heard a reader say, 'now and ever... the affectionate Theotokion in the 5th tone", or "now and ever... the flowery Theotokion in the 6th tone". When have you heard the deacon say, 'The Theotokos and Mother of the Light (and I mean those terms affectionately) let us say nice things about in flowery language and song because we like her'?

DOGMATIC Theotokion in the first tone:
Quote
A virgin festival today, my brethren! Let creation leap for joy, let humanity dance, for the holy Mother of God has called us together, the unsullied treasure of virginity, the rational Paradise of the second Adam, the workshop of the union of the two natures, the festival of the saving transaction, the bridal chamber in which the Word wedded the flesh, the truly light cloud which carried with a body the One who rides upon the Cherubim. At her intercessions, Christ God, save our souls.

If she is the very bridal chamber in which every Christian is wedded to the Lord, how is she not also in the highest degree Bride of God?
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