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Author Topic: Georgian Patriarch takes control over Abkhaz Diocese  (Read 967 times) Average Rating: 0
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mike
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« on: December 22, 2010, 07:08:55 AM »

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Tbilisi, December 22, Interfax - The Georgian Patriarchate announced the transfer of control over the Abkhaz Diocese to the leader of the Georgian Orthodox Church.

rest here

It's Interfax so it's all messed up. Does it mean that he became the locum temens of the Diocese?
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2010, 03:05:10 AM »

There was a split about 15 months ago. Read here. It's also detailed fairly well on wikipedia, much as I hate to cite that as a source for anything - see here

Many years,

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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2010, 08:49:18 AM »

I know there was a split but I would like to know what exactly happened yesterday.
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2011, 08:26:30 PM »

My understanding was that the Holy Synod election Patriarch Elijah Bishop of Sukhumi, Pitsunda, and Abkhazia in place of its former diocesan hierarch, who has not been able to reside in Abkhazia for quite some time now.

Hopefully this will hasten the resolution of the Abkhazian Orthodox Church's canonical status, but from the sounds of things the Mtskheta Patriarchate is still rather touchy about the status of the Orthodox in Abkhazia and Ossetia regardless of the independence of their countries from Georgia.
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2011, 02:55:46 AM »

That is not going to happen. Abkhazia and Osetia (Samachablo, since no Osetia existed until Russia arranged all these scheme) have never been independent Countries - this was Russia's effort to demolish ancient orthodox country. In spite of the fact that Russia is the biggest supporter of destroying one of the oldest orthodox countries that is not going to happen. Sooner or later Abkhazia and Osetia will be back to his rightful owner. How do I know that all their effort (orchestrated by Russia) is in vein? Simply by faith. I know it because we have saints, leaving saints who pray for Georgia and they don't pray because it's their will - it is God's will. Who can win any war against God? BTW, it is not just Georgian saints who say that but Great Russian saints too (Like Saint Seraphim of Sarov and Saint Lavrenti Chernigovski).

One should ask simple question: how this little Country of Georgia managed to survive all the wars against greatest troops of Arabs, Persians, Mongols and Turks if it was not God's will. It is irony of the fate though that Orthodox people know nothing about Georgia, while during the 12th-14th century it was the only country who could enter in the Jerusalem without ever being stopped by Islam countries controlling Jerusalem and without ever beeing asked to pay taxes, since the might of it was known to even Catholics. Maybe this is God's will too.

Glory to Thee, our God, glory to Thee.
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kijabeboy03
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2011, 12:02:37 PM »

That's very earnest of you and reminiscent of how a lot of Ethiopians feel about Eritrea, which has been independent for seventeen years now with its own Local Orthodox Church, but not even history backs you up. There used to be Local Orthodox Churches of Imereti and Abkhazia (based in Pitsunda) and Kartli and Kakheti (based in Mtskheta) - there's no reason for there not to be again. (Just as the Bulgarians revived their Local Orthodox Church in the 1800s and the Ukrainians are seeking to do so now.)

I hope that peace comes from all of this though! It's sad to see Orthodox fighting one another :-/.
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2011, 05:55:40 PM »

That's very earnest of you and reminiscent of how a lot of Ethiopians feel about Eritrea, which has been independent for seventeen years now with its own Local Orthodox Church, but not even history backs you up.
Which history you are talking about? Wikipedia based history?

You don't know anything about real history. If you want to know about the history of Georgian Church, then read "The Fate Of Georgian Church", by Nikolai Durnovo. This is the real history. There's real story of Abkhazian and Osetian "Church" in this document. This is not your wikipedia source. It's a source from a witness, from non-biased Russian writer, conscientious man.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2011, 01:27:10 PM »

Sooner or later Abkhazia and Osetia will be back to his rightful owner.
Owner? Are the Abkhaz and Ossetians your slaves?

I had been inclined to take the Georgian side of the story against Russian, but too many Georgians have sown doubts of its veracity.

It is irony of the fate though that Orthodox people know nothing about Georgia, while during the 12th-14th century it was the only country who could enter in the Jerusalem without ever being stopped by Islam countries controlling Jerusalem and without ever beeing asked to pay taxes, since the might of it was known to even Catholics. Maybe this is God's will too.

The Georgian King paid the tribute the Muslims asked. Once that stopped, they handed over the keys to the Greeks.
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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2011, 04:29:27 AM »

Sooner or later Abkhazia and Osetia will be back to his rightful owner.
Owner? Are the Abkhaz and Ossetians your slaves?
Do not put your words into my mouth. I did not say Abkhazians or Osetians were our slaves. In fact for centuries we considered them our brothers until Evil ones planted bad things among us. And what I said is this: Abkhazia and Samachablo (So called Osetia) has been Georgians rightful Motherland for centuries and it will be ours since such is God's will - No, I'm not a saint, I'm just a poor and ignorant sinner, and I do not know what is God's will but we have great saints who say this things and I trust them wholeheartedly. Besides I have read from Russian saints the same and I have read it in foreign sources. Hundreds of Thousands of Georgian martyrs have shed their blood for The Lord Jesus Christ and for the Motherland. Anyways, God bless Georgia and Every single country and man desiring good for her. God bless every single righteous man.

Quote
I had been inclined to take the Georgian side of the story against Russian, but too many Georgians have sown doubts of its veracity.
For the sake of the truth your opinion has little importance.

Quote
It is irony of the fate though that Orthodox people know nothing about Georgia, while during the 12th-14th century it was the only country who could enter in the Jerusalem without ever being stopped by Islam countries controlling Jerusalem and without ever beeing asked to pay taxes, since the might of it was known to even Catholics. Maybe this is God's will too.

The Georgian King paid the tribute the Muslims asked. Once that stopped, they handed over the keys to the Greeks.
I guess we read different books. My books say differently and I can quote many European and Arab authors who confirm what I said. Let's say this example. A German pilgrim Magister Thietmari Peregrinatio writes (in 1217) that "Georgians worship Saint George, are very well-armed and they bring big damage upon Muslims/Pagans..." Then this pilgrim goes on to describes that to reach Saint. Catherine's monastery on mt. Sinai peacefully he puts on a robe of Georgian monk and makes same tonsure as Georgian monks did.

Well I can quote another author for appetite namely Jacobi de Vitriaco (In his Historica Orientalis) who says: "In the east there's one more nation. This nation is very good wariors, brave in war and strong in stature. Muslims are afraid afraid of this nation. These people often atack and bring big damage to Persians, Midians and Syrians...

This people are called Georgians because they worship Saint George with great reverence. They think of him as Patron Saint who is with them in all wars against Muslims and Pagans. They venerate Saint George more than any other saint...

When they go for pilgrimage to worship on The Lord's grave in Holy city they enter with open flags and they don't pay any tributes to Muslims. Muslims do not dare to have Georgians pay the tribute since they know if they do so, after returning home they will get Georgian's wrath on them..." Do you want more of these type of quotes?

Just curious, do you have any grudge against Georgians?
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2011, 05:19:06 AM »

Wow.
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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2011, 05:50:26 AM »

Sooner or later Abkhazia and Osetia will be back to his rightful owner.
Owner? Are the Abkhaz and Ossetians your slaves?
Do not put your words into my mouth. I did not say Abkhazians or Osetians were our slaves. In fact for centuries we considered them our brothers until Evil ones planted bad things among us. And what I said is this: Abkhazia and Samachablo (So called Osetia) has been Georgians rightful Motherland for centuries and it will be ours since such is God's will - No, I'm not a saint, I'm just a poor and ignorant sinner, and I do not know what is God's will but we have great saints who say this things and I trust them wholeheartedly. Besides I have read from Russian saints the same and I have read it in foreign sources. Hundreds of Thousands of Georgian martyrs have shed their blood for The Lord Jesus Christ and for the Motherland. Anyways, God bless Georgia and Every single country and man desiring good for her. God bless every single righteous man.
"My Kingdom is not of this world-except for Georgia." I don't recall that in the Gospel of John.

I had been inclined to take the Georgian side of the story against Russian, but too many Georgians have sown doubts of its veracity.
For the sake of the truth your opinion has little importance.
Nor important, as I depend on the facts, not my opinion.


It is irony of the fate though that Orthodox people know nothing about Georgia, while during the 12th-14th century it was the only country who could enter in the Jerusalem without ever being stopped by Islam countries controlling Jerusalem and without ever beeing asked to pay taxes, since the might of it was known to even Catholics. Maybe this is God's will too.

The Georgian King paid the tribute the Muslims asked. Once that stopped, they handed over the keys to the Greeks.
I guess we read different books. My books say differently and I can quote many European and Arab authors who confirm what I said. Let's say this example. A German pilgrim Magister Thietmari Peregrinatio writes (in 1217) that "Georgians worship Saint George, are very well-armed and they bring big damage upon Muslims/Pagans..." Then this pilgrim goes on to describes that to reach Saint. Catherine's monastery on mt. Sinai peacefully he puts on a robe of Georgian monk and makes same tonsure as Georgian monks did.

Well I can quote another author for appetite namely Jacobi de Vitriaco (In his Historica Orientalis) who says: "In the east there's one more nation. This nation is very good wariors, brave in war and strong in stature. Muslims are afraid afraid of this nation. These people often atack and bring big damage to Persians, Midians and Syrians...

This people are called Georgians because they worship Saint George with great reverence. They think of him as Patron Saint who is with them in all wars against Muslims and Pagans. They venerate Saint George more than any other saint...

When they go for pilgrimage to worship on The Lord's grave in Holy city they enter with open flags and they don't pay any tributes to Muslims. Muslims do not dare to have Georgians pay the tribute since they know if they do so, after returning home they will get Georgian's wrath on them..." Do you want more of these type of quotes?
Bring them on.

Btw, the time period you speak of was that of Queen Rusudan, including her being the power behind the throne.  Who was she married to again? And Queen St. Tamar. Who was she married to again?

And the Georgians were busy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Georgia_and_Armenia

Just curious, do you have any grudge against Georgians?
No, none at all.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 05:53:43 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2011, 03:01:18 AM »

Bring them on.
I do not have my book with me right now but I will tell you this and later I'll give you the authors names and references. Throughout XIII, XIV, XV and XVI centuries the motive repeats and these authors mention almost same things which are: 1) Georgians are strong warriors and defenders of Orthodox faith; 2) They venerate St. George most then any other saint who in turn is patron Saint for Georgians; For curiosity I'll tell you that Georgians believe Saint George himself being in several wars fighting alongside them. It is widely known, for example, as part of local tradition and in which I have no doubt that the saint fought in the war of Didgori. One might think this is another paranoia of ours but for us it's sure thing; 3) Muslims don't dare to ask the tribute to Georgians and Georgians always enter the Holy City of Jerusalem with their flags spread; 4) They own (are guardians of) Golgotha and Monastery of the Cross; 4) Beginning from XIV century Georgians guard the Tomb of the Lord and they possess the key for the entrance to the Tomb. In one source author describes that they are fierce Guardians (I can't remember exact words but I can quote it later when I have my book back); 5) They follow Byzantine rite;

There are several other motives that repeat throughout and in 2 or 3 sources it says that Georgians are those people who Guard Christianity against people of Gog and Magog. I will quote these authors later exactly the way they say.

Very famous french writer Alexandre Dumas whom everybody knows I would guess traveled through Caucasus and visited Georgia too. He's got amazing memoirs about Georgia in his "Voyage to the Caucasus". One time he says: "One Russian who was famous with his righteousness told me: You should see Georgians in War. They are not regular humans then but titans who can take the sky with a blow." This is right observation (that Heavenly spirit worked in Georgian while they were in war) and this is not because we are strong. Not at all. This is because Georgians new they were nothing, they could do nothing at all and it was only God Almighty who was the winner of all the wars (like Biblical King David new). And they would pray to the Lord before each war and they will praise him after each war. They would praise him because it was the Lord who won the war not them. We know that without God we are nothing and it is the Lord who sustains us in every action, everywhere and anytime, Glory to Him, Glory to the Almighty Lord. For example, during the time of Great Saint King Tamara (We don't call her Queen btw; we call her King and she was indeed the King of all Kings) Georgia was the strongest Kingdom in Georgian history. She won all the wars, grat wars. How did this Great King do it? She would pray incessantly for days before wars (and She was know to levitate during prayer like great Saint Seraphim of Sarov and other great saints did) and she would lead the army to the war-field barefoot. God was with her and the Lord was the winner of all this wars. This is how we believe in the Lord. But I should be sorry counting myself along those great warriors and God-pleasing people. I'm not included in "we". When I say "we" I mean those true Georgians. I'm a fake one.

Quote
Btw, the time period you speak of was that of Queen Rusudan, including her being the power behind the throne.  Who was she married to again? And Queen St. Tamar. Who was she married to again?
Firstly it does not matter what period it was since my response was to your comment which said "The Georgian King paid the tribute the Muslims asked. Once that stopped, they handed over the keys to the Greeks." So, from the info I brought it is clear that you did not have wright information - Georgians did not pay tribute to Muslims. Secondly, as I have just told you this is continuous happening over centuries. Thirdly, if your point is that Georgians did not pay tribute to Muslims because Queen Rusudan's husband was Turk, you are wrong. All this authors mention the reason why Georgians did not pay tribute (Muslims were afraid and not because the Queen's husband was Muslim); Secondly Queen Rusudan's husband converted to Christianity and if anything this fact would make it worse  for Georgians to have better relations with Muslims. Plus Georgians entered Holy City without paying tributes in subsequent centuries (when there was no more of Muslim husbands). If this is not the point you want to make, then I do no see what you want to say by that.

Quote
I'll give you much better (more Orthodox) linka and read them, if you please (unless you have known these things already). These will keep us more in faith and not fight each other Smiley Read about These:
100,000 Holy Martyrs of Tbilisi By the Muslims
The Holy Ajarian Martyrs of Georgia
6,000 Martyrs of the St David Gareji Monastery

Quote
No, none at all.
Good to know that Smiley God be with you every time and everywhere.
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2011, 06:42:20 AM »

I found this historical source online. So it can be checked what it is said about Georgia in this old text. The text is called Caxton's Mirror of the World and dates to 1480. Here's the link to google books. Page 87/88 2nd paragraph starts with "In this regyon is another maner of peple Crysten ..." I do not know what language is this (since I almost understand it it could be old English, but I'm not sure). One can make out the text though. It speaks of Crysten (likely Christian) people who are called Georgiens (clearly Georgians) and they "crye alle way on seynt George in batayll" ("they call always saint George in battle" maybe?). Same description here too. And then it says clearly there that when they go to Jerusalem to worship the Holy Tomb (sepulcre?) of the Lord Jesus, sarrasyns (I would guess Muslims? or could be greek word sarkinos) won't dare to take any tribute from them...

In 1321 Marino Sanudo Torsello, in his "Secreta Fidelium Crucis", wrights that "there are also Christians, who are called Georgians since in the battles against pagans Saint George is their guardian and protector. They worship and venerate this saint with utmost reverence and the Saint is their flag-bearer. They are extremely brave in battles, strong, and they can fight against multi-manned armies. Persians, Midians, Syrians, who neighbor Georgians, fear them very much...Every time they come in here to worship on the Holy Tomb of The Lord, they enter the city (Jerusalem) with flags and they don't pay a tribute... Georgian were really furious and threatened Koradin, head of the city of Damascus, since he without the permission of Georgians destroyed the city wall of Jerusalem, when Latins have sieged the city of Damietta..."

Now this two sources are 15th and 14th centuries respectively.
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