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HandmaidenofGod
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« on: December 20, 2010, 11:17:48 PM »

As many of you may or may not know, in May my Polish Catholic Grandmother passed away.

My Grandmother, may she rest in peace, was a Catholic's Catholic.  laugh (I mean that in a good way.)

There were literally pictures/statues/icons of the Lord Jesus, the Blessed Mother, and/or the Pope in every room of the house. We found a rosary that is literally as big as I am, with a 2 foot long crucifix attached to it! (I suppose that was for the really BIG prayers! lol)  Smiley

While going through her things I found her brown scapular. I was wondering if any of our Catholic friends could enlighten me about this and teach me what it is and the tradition behind it.

Thank you!
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 11:37:01 PM »

As many of you may or may not know, in May my Polish Catholic Grandmother passed away.
Memory eternal!

Well, although I love the Angleus, support the WRO, do not have problems with Rosaries, and can tolerate Latin religious art (for the most part), the scapular is somehing I think the Orthodox should avoid.
Quote
The Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel
Also known as the Brown Scapular, this is the best known, most celebrated, and most widespread of the small scapulars. It is spoken of as "the Scapular", and the "feast of the Scapular" is that of Our Lady of Mount Carmel on 16 July. It is probably the oldest scapular and served as the prototype of the others. According to a pious tradition the Blessed Virgin appeared to St. Simon Stock at Cambridge, England, on Sunday, 16 July, 1251. In answer to his appeal for help for his oppressed order, she appeared to him with a scapular in her hand and said: "Take, beloved son this scapular of thy order as a badge of my confraternity and for thee and all Carmelites a special sign of grace; whoever dies in this garment, will not suffer everlasting fire. It is the sign of salvation, a safeguard in dangers, a pledge of peace and of the covenant". This tradition, however, appears in such a precise form for the first time in 1642, when the words of the Blessed Virgin were given in a circular of St. Simon Stock which he is said to have dictated to his companion secretary, and confessor, Peter Swanyngton. Although it has now been sufficiently shown that this testimony cannot be supported by historical documents, still its general content remains a reliable pious tradition; in other words, it is credible that St. Simon Stock was assured in a supernatural manner of the special protection of the Blessed Virgin for his whole order and for all who should wear the Carmelite habit, that the Blessed Virgin also promised him to grant special aid, especially in the hour of death, to those who in holy fidelity wore this habit in her honour throughout life, so that they should be preserved from hell. And, even though there is here no direct reference to the members of the scapular confraternity, indirectly the promise is extended to all who from devotion to the Mother of God should wear her habit or badge, like true Christians, until death, and be thus as it were affiliated to the Carmelite Order.

Heretofore no authenticated testimony has been discovered proving that the small scapular was known from the second half of the thirteenth century and was given to the members of the Confraternity of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. On the contrary there are many reasons for the view that the small scapular, as we now know it and in the form it has certainly had since the sixteenth century, is of much later origin. Zimmerman (Mon. hist. Carmelit.) and Saltet give very reasonable grounds for this view. In any case, the scapular was very widespread in European countries at the end of the sixteenth century, as is evident from "La cronica Carmelitana" of the Carmelite Joseph Falcone (Piacenza, 1595). In 1600 appeared at Palermo the "Giardino Carmelitano" of the Carmelite Egidio Leoindelicato da Sciacca (the approval is dated 1592). Towards the end the author gives after the formulas of benediction for the Fratelli and Sorelle della Compagnia della Madonna del Carmine (who receive the complete habit of the order) the formula for the blessing of the scapular for the Devoti della Compagnia Carmelitana (pp. 239 sqq.). This is the earliest form of benediction for the small scapular with which we are acquainted. It is also noteworthy that the formula for the sisters contains no reference to the scapular, while in that for the brothers there is a special blessing for the scapular.

Nevertheless, even should we admit that the small scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel originated even as late as the beginning of the sixteenth century, yet the above promise, which is designated the first privilege of the Carmelite Scapular, remains unimpaired. For this privilege declares nothing else than that all those who out of true veneration and love for the Blessed Virgin constantly wear the scapular in a spirit of fidelity and confiding faith, after they have been placed by the Church itself with this habit or badge under the special protection of the Mother of God, shall enjoy this special protection in the matter and crisis which most concerns them for time and eternity. Whoever, therefore, even though he be now a sinner, wears the badge of the Mother of God throughout life as her faithful servant, not presumptuously relying on the scapular as on a miraculous amulet, but trustfully confiding in the power and goodness of Mary, may securely hope that Mary will through her powerful and motherly intercession procure for him all the necessary graces for true conversion and for perseverance in good. Such is the meaning and importance of the first privilege of the Carmelite Scapular, which is wont to be expressed in the words: "whoever wears the scapular until death, will be preserved from hell".

The second privilege of the scapular otherwise known as the Sabbatine privilege, may be briefly defined as meaning that Mary's motherly assistance for her servants in the Scapular Confraternity will continue after death, and will find effect especially on Saturday (the day consecrated to her honour), provided that the members fulfill faithfully the not easy conditions necessary for obtaining this privilege.

As regards the external form of the scapular, it should consist of two segments of brown woollen cloth; black, however, is also admissible. This scapular usually bears on one side the image of our Lady of Mount Carmel, but neither this nor any other image is prescribed. The authentic list of indulgences, privileges, and indults of the Scapular Confraternity of Mount Carmel was last approved on 4 July, 1908, by the Congregation of Indulgences. It is noteworthy that this summary says nothing of the above-mentioned first privilege; what it says of the Sabbatine privilege is explained in the article on that subject. Concerning the often miraculous protection which Mary on account of this her badge has granted to pious members of the Scapular Confraternity in great perils of soul and body, there exist many records and reliable reports (some of recent times), to which it is impossible to refuse credence. Like the rosary, this scapular has become the badge of the devout Catholic and the true servant of Mary.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13508b.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_scapular
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 11:41:20 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 11:56:42 PM »

Thanks! I didn't intend on using, just wanted to understand it. My mother and I have been putting her religious things in a box with the intent of donating them to her parish. At least then if they are disposed of, they will be done so with dignity and respect.

I'm keeping some of her prayer books, not to use, just to have. Makes me feel like she's still here praying for me.
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2010, 12:00:25 AM »

Mmmm. I'm not Catholic, but I have a brown scapular story. In fact, I attribute my conversion to Christianity to a brown scapular.

While shopping in a Mexican grocery store in downtown Chicago, I got one from a massive, silent Mexican nun in a brown and black habit. She spoke no English, but she appeared to be collecting for a church Christmas charity and was giving them out in exchange for a small donation. I was not religious at the time, but I gave her a couple of bucks and received the scapular. I thought it was kind of an exotic little necklace, and it would be cool to own one.

As I checked out, a lady in front of me in the checkout line told me how to wear it, and I put it on under my shirt. If she hadn't told me how to wear it, I might have just put it in a drawer and forgotten about it. They're very light weight and comfortable--string and felt--so I wore it for months. The next December, I went to church for the first time in my life. Yes, I had the scapular on. On reflection, I think the scapular may have had so much prayer in it from these anonymous sisters, that it guided me to Christ. I don't know this, of course, but I strongly suspect it.

According to the Carmelites it prepares the wearer to receive grace and accept conversion. I was Orthodox before I discovered this. In fact, I didn't even know it was a sacramental, or that it was called a scapular and had religious significance; I just thought it was a slightly superstitious trinket.

How very wrong I was.
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2010, 12:03:20 AM »

Thanks! I didn't intend on using, just wanted to understand it. My mother and I have been putting her religious things in a box with the intent of donating them to her parish. At least then if they are disposed of, they will be done so with dignity and respect.

I'm keeping some of her prayer books, not to use, just to have. Makes me feel like she's still here praying for me.
I have yet to see a prayer book put out by the Vatican that doesn't have at least one prayer an Orthodox can use.  Most have far more.

I can't remember, did you have Baptist relatives? Better that you or her church get these objects. I know what Protestants do with them. I know-I used to be Protestant.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2010, 12:08:14 AM »

Thanks! I didn't intend on using, just wanted to understand it. My mother and I have been putting her religious things in a box with the intent of donating them to her parish. At least then if they are disposed of, they will be done so with dignity and respect.

I'm keeping some of her prayer books, not to use, just to have. Makes me feel like she's still here praying for me.
I have yet to see a prayer book put out by the Vatican that doesn't have at least one prayer an Orthodox can use.  Most have far more.

I can't remember, did you have Baptist relatives? Better that you or her church get these objects. I know what Protestants do with them. I know-I used to be Protestant.

My mother was raised Catholic but became Baptist as an adult. (Thus my brief detour with the Baptists.) We're going to donate the items to my Grandmother's Catholic parish. Although my mother and her sister are Protestant, they were and are respectful of their mother's Catholic faith. They made sure she had a Catholic funeral, the Rosary Society attended, etc. Just as my Grandmother would have wanted.

I've also been diligent in making sure that all of the religious items have been treated with respect.
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2010, 11:13:49 AM »

As many of you may or may not know, in May my Polish Catholic Grandmother passed away.

My Grandmother, may she rest in peace, was a Catholic's Catholic.  laugh (I mean that in a good way.)

There were literally pictures/statues/icons of the Lord Jesus, the Blessed Mother, and/or the Pope in every room of the house. We found a rosary that is literally as big as I am, with a 2 foot long crucifix attached to it! (I suppose that was for the really BIG prayers! lol)  Smiley

While going through her things I found her brown scapular. I was wondering if any of our Catholic friends could enlighten me about this and teach me what it is and the tradition behind it.

Thank you!
The scapular is similar in significance to the Orthodox baptismal cross. In the past, they were more common than they are now. The garment which some Roman Catholic monks wear over their habit is also called a scapular.
The Cistercian monk in white habit with black scapular.

The scapulars in the past designated membership in a Confraternity or Catholic brotherhood associated with a monastery or monastic order. Through the course of time, the rules for giving out scapulars were relaxed and every priest could give on the faithful the scapular. These scapulars gave their wearers the responsibilities and privileges of the monasteries/monastic orders to which they were associated.
The large number of iconography is not only a Polish/Catholic thing. In the past, Ukrainian and Russian peasant homes also were bedecked in many icons.
 The large Rosary is used for processions. Usually, the old ladies with the huge Rosary cause a fit because the priest tells them to go after the banners or the First Communion children.



Note: These processions are common in Poland, especially for the feast of Easter,Corpus Christi, the octave of Corpus Christi and parish's patron saint feastdays but not everywhere does everyone wear folk costumes.
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 11:37:16 AM »

Mmmm. I'm not Catholic, but I have a brown scapular story. In fact, I attribute my conversion to Christianity to a brown scapular.

While shopping in a Mexican grocery store in downtown Chicago, I got one from a massive, silent Mexican nun in a brown and black habit. She spoke no English, but she appeared to be collecting for a church Christmas charity and was giving them out in exchange for a small donation. I was not religious at the time, but I gave her a couple of bucks and received the scapular. I thought it was kind of an exotic little necklace, and it would be cool to own one.

As I checked out, a lady in front of me in the checkout line told me how to wear it, and I put it on under my shirt. If she hadn't told me how to wear it, I might have just put it in a drawer and forgotten about it. They're very light weight and comfortable--string and felt--so I wore it for months. The next December, I went to church for the first time in my life. Yes, I had the scapular on. On reflection, I think the scapular may have had so much prayer in it from these anonymous sisters, that it guided me to Christ. I don't know this, of course, but I strongly suspect it.

According to the Carmelites it prepares the wearer to receive grace and accept conversion. I was Orthodox before I discovered this. In fact, I didn't even know it was a sacramental, or that it was called a scapular and had religious significance; I just thought it was a slightly superstitious trinket.

How very wrong I was.

Touching story, thanks for sharing.
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 12:19:27 PM »

Memory Eternal!

Here's what I found:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapular_of_Our_Lady_of_Mount_Carmel

I have a statue of Mary that was my grandmother's.  I have it in my bedroom and when I see it I'm reminded of my her and say a pray for her.
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2010, 02:49:06 PM »

I Knew it...
The Catholic Pagan Goddess Mary ,want's to be served ,even worshiped... ..We Don't Honor The same Mary and there not the same...Our Most Blessed Theotokos Points the way to Christ Our redeemer and not to Herself, by saying  do what he tells you...... Grin

Catholics will use our images of Mary to convince [decieve ]us, there's and our mary are the same ,which there not ............I reject there catholic Mary i don't worship Pagan Goddesses....Even the catholic Jesus is Questionable..
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 03:06:24 PM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2010, 04:28:08 PM »

Memory Eternal!

Here's what I found:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapular_of_Our_Lady_of_Mount_Carmel

I have a statue of Mary that was my grandmother's.  I have it in my bedroom and when I see it I'm reminded of my her and say a pray for her.

I'm touched by the respect you and the OP has for your grandmothers' simple piety.
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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2010, 04:31:42 PM »

I Knew it...
The Catholic Pagan Goddess Mary ,want's to be served ,even worshiped... ..We Don't Honor The same Mary and there not the same...Our Most Blessed Theotokos Points the way to Christ Our redeemer and not to Herself, by saying  do what he tells you...... Grin

Catholics will use our images of Mary to convince [decieve ]us, there's and our mary are the same ,which there not ............I reject there catholic Mary i don't worship Pagan Goddesses....Even the catholic Jesus is Questionable..

Jethro Billy Bob's Fundygelical Revival Church is a good place for you. Why don't you try it out?
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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2010, 07:52:10 PM »

I Knew it...
The Catholic Pagan Goddess Mary ,want's to be served ,even worshiped... ..We Don't Honor The same Mary and there not the same...Our Most Blessed Theotokos Points the way to Christ Our redeemer and not to Herself, by saying  do what he tells you...... Grin

Catholics will use our images of Mary to convince [decieve ]us, there's and our mary are the same ,which there not ............I reject there catholic Mary i don't worship Pagan Goddesses....Even the catholic Jesus is Questionable..

Stashko I resent you coming on a thread about my Grandmother's piety and trashing Catholics. Take your Catholic-hating ways somewhere else! Have a little respect for the dead!  Angry
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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2010, 07:54:17 PM »

As many of you may or may not know, in May my Polish Catholic Grandmother passed away.

My Grandmother, may she rest in peace, was a Catholic's Catholic.  laugh (I mean that in a good way.)

There were literally pictures/statues/icons of the Lord Jesus, the Blessed Mother, and/or the Pope in every room of the house. We found a rosary that is literally as big as I am, with a 2 foot long crucifix attached to it! (I suppose that was for the really BIG prayers! lol)  Smiley

While going through her things I found her brown scapular. I was wondering if any of our Catholic friends could enlighten me about this and teach me what it is and the tradition behind it.

Thank you!
The scapular is similar in significance to the Orthodox baptismal cross. In the past, they were more common than they are now. The garment which some Roman Catholic monks wear over their habit is also called a scapular.
The Cistercian monk in white habit with black scapular.

The scapulars in the past designated membership in a Confraternity or Catholic brotherhood associated with a monastery or monastic order. Through the course of time, the rules for giving out scapulars were relaxed and every priest could give on the faithful the scapular. These scapulars gave their wearers the responsibilities and privileges of the monasteries/monastic orders to which they were associated.
The large number of iconography is not only a Polish/Catholic thing. In the past, Ukrainian and Russian peasant homes also were bedecked in many icons.
 The large Rosary is used for processions. Usually, the old ladies with the huge Rosary cause a fit because the priest tells them to go after the banners or the First Communion children.



Note: These processions are common in Poland, especially for the feast of Easter,Corpus Christi, the octave of Corpus Christi and parish's patron saint feastdays but not everywhere does everyone wear folk costumes.

Thank you for this! This explains a lot! Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2010, 08:21:09 PM »

I'm not Bashing ....

What Isa Posted about the Scapular I'm commenting on....serve me no mention of Christ that i can see....I believe
We don't share or have the same Mary or Jesus ....Plus this isn't the prayer part of the forum  ?
Why would i pretend the Catholics and the Orthodox are the same when where not..........There Mary and There Jesus is all based on talking Recent Apparitions ,even there Churches are named after them...They  may tell us the don't  have to accept these private Revelations but they  do .... Our Confession of  faith are different....So how can Our God and theres be the same....One is right [thats us ] the other is wrong that's them....enough said.....



I Knew it...
The Catholic Pagan Goddess Mary ,want's to be served ,even worshiped... ..We Don't Honor The same Mary and there not the same...Our Most Blessed Theotokos Points the way to Christ Our redeemer and not to Herself, by saying  do what he tells you...... Grin

Catholics will use our images of Mary to convince [decieve ]us, there's and our mary are the same ,which there not ............I reject there catholic Mary i don't worship Pagan Goddesses....Even the catholic Jesus is Questionable..

Stashko I resent you coming on a thread about my Grandmother's piety and trashing Catholics. Take your Catholic-hating ways somewhere else! Have a little respect for the dead!  Angry
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« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2010, 10:37:37 PM »

I'm not Bashing ....

What Isa Posted about the Scapular I'm commenting on....serve me no mention of Christ that i can see....I believe
We don't share or have the same Mary or Jesus ....Plus this isn't the prayer part of the forum  ?
Why would i pretend the Catholics and the Orthodox are the same when where not..........There Mary and There Jesus is all based on talking Recent Apparitions ,even there Churches are named after them...They  may tell us the don't  have to accept these private Revelations but they  do .... Our Confession of  faith are different....So how can Our God and theres be the same....One is right [thats us ] the other is wrong that's them....enough said.....
Have you noticed that not too many people share your phobias?



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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 11:29:56 PM »



Let us please get back on track and not make this thread about stashko's feelings about Roman Catholicism.  If this thread continues in the direction it is presently headed, I will shut it down.

Thank you.

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« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2010, 12:06:17 PM »

The bestowing of the original scapular upon St.Simon Stock

The brown scapular is associated with the Carmelite monks, who are well-known for their mysticism. At the same hesychasm was developing in the East, in Spain St.John of the Cross formulated the basis of so-called Carmelite mysticism. Central to this mysticism is the concept of the "dark night", during which we are purified from our sins. If anyone wants to study Western mysticism I suggest his book Dark Night of the Soul. Here is the beginning of the poem, which is interpreted by St.John of the Cross in the aforementioned book.

Once in a dark of night,
Inflamed with love and wanting, I arose
(O coming of delight!)
And went, as no one knows,
When all my house lay long in deep repose

All in the dark went right,
Down secret steps, disguised in other clothes,
(O coming of delight!)
In dark when no one knows,
When all my house lay long in deep repose.

And in the luck of night
In secret places where no other spied
I went without my sight
Without a light to guide
Except the heart that lit me from inside.

It guided me and shone
Surer than noonday sunlight over me,
And lead me to the one
Whom only I could see
Deep in a place where only we could be.

O guiding dark of night!
O dark of night more darling than the dawn!
O night that can unite
A lover and loved one,
A lover and loved one moved in unison.

And on my flowering breast
Which I had kept for him and him alone
He slept as I caressed
And loved him for my own,
Breathing an air from redolent cedars blown.

And from the castle wall
The wind came down to winnow through his hair
Bidding his fingers fall,
Searing my throat with air
And all my senses were suspended there.

I stayed there to forget.
There on my lover, face to face, I lay.
All ended, and I let
My cares all fall away
Forgotten in the lilies on that day.
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