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Author Topic: Jesus died for your sins - Muslim response  (Read 4411 times) Average Rating: 0
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2010, 02:08:28 PM »

Bowman=stickman=bowman=stickman
Just starting a new username?

Hail Mary no brother...
Is this intended to be some kind of expletive?
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« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2010, 03:20:58 PM »


وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

 
Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157   And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.


It is evident that you have your own Qur'an version. A person who has read and studied the standard Qur'an will not fall for your cheap games.
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« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2010, 03:43:05 PM »


The Koran tells us that Jesus was crucified until death upon the cross, in more than one place.


Reference?  Huh
According to a Lahore Ahmadiyya interpretation of the Qur'an, Jesus is not denied having been crucified. He is denied having died as a result:

Sura 4:157 And for their saying: We have
killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of
Mary, the messenger of Allåh, and
they killed him not, nor did they
cause his death on the cross, (a)
but he was made to appear to them as such.(b)
And certainly those who differ therein
are in doubt about it. They have no
knowledge about it, but only follow a
conjecture, and they killed him not
for certain.

Footnotes to Sura 4:157:

157a. The words må salabu-hu do not negative Jesus’ being nailed to the cross;
they negative his having expired on the cross as a result of being nailed to it. Salb is a
well-known way of killing (T, LA).  Salaba-hu means he put him to death in a certain
well-known manner (LL). That Jesus died a natural death is plainly stated in 5:117: “and I
was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to
die, Thou wast the Watcher over them”. See 5:117a. The Gospels contain clear testimony
showing that Jesus Christ escaped death on the cross. The following points may be noted:
(1) Jesus remained on the cross for a few hours only (Mark 15:25; John 19:14) but death
by crucifixion was always tardy. (2) The two men crucified with Jesus were still alive
when taken down from the cross; the presumption is that Jesus too was alive. (3) The
breaking of legs was resorted to in the case of the two criminals, but dispensed with in the
case of Jesus (John 19:32, 33). (4) The side of Jesus being pierced, blood rushed out and
this was a certain sign of life. (5) Even Pilate did not believe that Jesus actually died in so
short a time (Mark 15:44). (6) Jesus was not buried like the two criminals, but was given
into the charge of a wealthy disciple of his, who lavished care on him and put him in a
spacious tomb hewn in the side of a rock (Mark 15:46). (7) When the tomb was seen on
the third day, the stone was found to have been removed from its mouth (Mark 16:4 ) ,
which would not have been the case if there had been a supernatural rising. ( 8 ) Mary,
when she saw him, took him for the gardener (John 20:15), which shows that Jesus had
disguised himself as a gardener. (9) Such disguise would not have been needed if Jesus
had risen from the dead. (10) It was in the same body of flesh that the disciples saw Jesus,
and the wounds were still there deep enough for a man to thrust his hand in (John
20:25–28). (11) He still felt hunger and ate as his disciples ate (Luke 24:39–43).
(12) Jesus Christ undertook a journey to Galilee with two of his disciples walking side by
side with him (Matt. 28:10), which shows that he was fleeing for refuge; a journey to
Galilee was not necessary to rise to heaven. (13) In all post-crucifixion appearances Jesus
is found hiding himself as if he feared being discovered. (14) Jesus Christ prayed the
whole night before his arrest to be saved from the accursed death on the cross, and he
also asked his disciples to pray for him; the prayers of a righteous man in distress and
affliction are always accepted. He seems to have even received a promise from God to be
saved, and it was to this promise that he referred when he cried out on the cross: “My
God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?” Heb. 5:7 makes the matter still more clear,
for there it is plainly stated that the prayer of Jesus was accepted: “When he had offered
up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save
him from death, and was heard in that he feared”.

The statements made in the Qur’ån corroborate the above statements quoted from
the Gospels. Jesus did not die on the cross, nor was he killed as were the two thieves, but
to the Jews he appeared as if he were dead.

157b. The words shubbiha la-hum may bear two interpretations: he was made to be
like (it) or  to resemble (it); or  the matter was made dubious or obscure (LL). The Ruh
al-Ma‘åni says the meaning may be that the matter became dubious to them. The story
that someone else was made to resemble Jesus is not borne out by the words of the
Qur’ån, which could only mean, if an object were mentioned, that Jesus was made to
resemble someone, not that someone was made to resemble Jesus.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 03:44:08 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2010, 04:20:53 PM »

Bowman=stickman=bowman=stickman
Just starting a new username?

Hail Mary no brother...

Sad...
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« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2010, 04:22:11 PM »

Bowman=stickman=bowman=stickman
Just starting a new username?

Hail Mary no brother...
Is this intended to be some kind of expletive?

I think he's trying to say, "i'm one of you" in a tongue-in-cheek, backhanded sort of way. At least that's how I interpreted it.
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Bowman
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« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2010, 04:53:18 PM »


وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

 
Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157   And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.


It is evident that you have your own Qur'an version. A person who has read and studied the standard Qur'an will not fall for your cheap games.

I have never been refuted, brother.
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Theophilos78
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« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2010, 04:55:54 PM »


According to a Lahore Ahmadiyya interpretation of the Qur'an, Jesus is not denied having been crucified. He is denied having died as a result:

Sura 4:157 And for their saying: We have
killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of
Mary, the messenger of Allåh, and
they killed him not, nor did they
cause his death on the cross, (a)
but he was made to appear to them as such.(b)
And certainly those who differ therein
are in doubt about it. They have no
knowledge about it, but only follow a
conjecture, and they killed him not
for certain.

Footnotes to Sura 4:157:

157a. The words må salabu-hu do not negative Jesus’ being nailed to the cross;
they negative his having expired on the cross as a result of being nailed to it. Salb is a
well-known way of killing (T, LA).  Salaba-hu means he put him to death in a certain
well-known manner (LL). That Jesus died a natural death is plainly stated in 5:117: “and I
was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to
die, Thou wast the Watcher over them”. See 5:117a. The Gospels contain clear testimony
showing that Jesus Christ escaped death on the cross. The following points may be noted:
(1) Jesus remained on the cross for a few hours only (Mark 15:25; John 19:14) but death
by crucifixion was always tardy. (2) The two men crucified with Jesus were still alive
when taken down from the cross; the presumption is that Jesus too was alive. (3) The
breaking of legs was resorted to in the case of the two criminals, but dispensed with in the
case of Jesus (John 19:32, 33). (4) The side of Jesus being pierced, blood rushed out and
this was a certain sign of life. (5) Even Pilate did not believe that Jesus actually died in so
short a time (Mark 15:44). (6) Jesus was not buried like the two criminals, but was given
into the charge of a wealthy disciple of his, who lavished care on him and put him in a
spacious tomb hewn in the side of a rock (Mark 15:46). (7) When the tomb was seen on
the third day, the stone was found to have been removed from its mouth (Mark 16:4 ) ,
which would not have been the case if there had been a supernatural rising. ( 8 ) Mary,
when she saw him, took him for the gardener (John 20:15), which shows that Jesus had
disguised himself as a gardener. (9) Such disguise would not have been needed if Jesus
had risen from the dead. (10) It was in the same body of flesh that the disciples saw Jesus,
and the wounds were still there deep enough for a man to thrust his hand in (John
20:25–28). (11) He still felt hunger and ate as his disciples ate (Luke 24:39–43).
(12) Jesus Christ undertook a journey to Galilee with two of his disciples walking side by
side with him (Matt. 28:10), which shows that he was fleeing for refuge; a journey to
Galilee was not necessary to rise to heaven. (13) In all post-crucifixion appearances Jesus
is found hiding himself as if he feared being discovered. (14) Jesus Christ prayed the
whole night before his arrest to be saved from the accursed death on the cross, and he
also asked his disciples to pray for him; the prayers of a righteous man in distress and
affliction are always accepted. He seems to have even received a promise from God to be
saved, and it was to this promise that he referred when he cried out on the cross: “My
God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?” Heb. 5:7 makes the matter still more clear,
for there it is plainly stated that the prayer of Jesus was accepted: “When he had offered
up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save
him from death, and was heard in that he feared”.

The statements made in the Qur’ån corroborate the above statements quoted from
the Gospels. Jesus did not die on the cross, nor was he killed as were the two thieves, but
to the Jews he appeared as if he were dead.

157b. The words shubbiha la-hum may bear two interpretations: he was made to be
like (it) or  to resemble (it); or  the matter was made dubious or obscure (LL). The Ruh
al-Ma‘åni says the meaning may be that the matter became dubious to them. The story
that someone else was made to resemble Jesus is not borne out by the words of the
Qur’ån, which could only mean, if an object were mentioned, that Jesus was made to
resemble someone, not that someone was made to resemble Jesus.



I know that the Ahmadiyya sect, which is considered heretical by mainstream Islam, adheres to the swoon theory with regard to Jesus' crucifixion. They endorse the crucifixion, but deny Jesus' death and resurrection. Followers of Ahmadiyya support this theory through their peculiar interpretation of the standard Qur'an text though. Bowman, on the other hand, modifies the text itself in order to adapt it to his interpretation.
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« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2010, 05:00:20 PM »


وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

 
Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157   And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.


It is evident that you have your own Qur'an version. A person who has read and studied the standard Qur'an will not fall for your cheap games.

I have never been refuted, brother.

Why the need to refute you when your argument is based on a Qur'an text that exists only in your world of fantasies? People will not even take you seriously because you distort a text to prove your allegations. Thus, this is not a matter of strong and irrefutable theories, but of honesty.
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« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2010, 05:10:17 PM »


I know that the Ahmadiyya sect, which is considered heretical by mainstream Islam, adheres to the swoon theory with regard to Jesus' crucifixion. They endorse the crucifixion, but deny Jesus' death and resurrection. Followers of Ahmadiyya support this theory through their peculiar interpretation of the standard Qur'an text though. Bowman, on the other hand, modifies the text itself in order to adapt it to his interpretation.

What Arabic words are troubling you, brother?
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sainthieu
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« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2010, 05:58:26 PM »

Apparently, Bowman is a Muslim--or an American college student who's been brainwashed by the relativism of the Left. Elsewhere, fro example, he writes that Muslim violence in the Quran is inspired by the violence in the Bible--a remark so egregiously stupid it must not be allowed to pass unchallenged.

Doesn't matter what you call yourself, Stick Man.

Ban and forget.



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« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2010, 06:09:48 PM »

Apparently, Bowman is a Muslim--or an American college student who's been brainwashed by the relativism of the Left. Elsewhere, fro example, he writes that Muslim violence in the Quran is inspired by the violence in the Bible--a remark so egregiously stupid it must not be allowed to pass unchallenged.

Doesn't matter what you call yourself, Stick Man.

Ban and forget.





A meritless assertion on your part.
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« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2010, 10:09:07 PM »

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

It is not difficult to interpreting this part with conclusion no one die “literally”.
And what we call “death” – actually is not “death”.  

“death , where is your sting? hell, where is your victory?”


I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

It is not difficult to interpreting this part with conclusion no one die but “literally”.
And what we call “death” – actually is not “death”.  

“death , where is your sting? hell, where is your victory?”


6 centuries most noble, educated and ascetical Christians(including his own mother and apostles) miss basic fact about Jesus crucifixion as well 1000 of 1000 other whom meet Jesus in person after his raise.  

Also it make Romans government unprofessional and Jews look like idiots – them arrest man, and never crucify Him.

It is not just chip Islamic statements – it is show ipoor ntellectual level of Islam teachings.

Honestly, I feel sorry for this people, who was trapped in such naive deception.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 10:10:02 PM by Alive » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2013, 07:59:20 PM »

Quote
Many Christians and other non-Muslims who want to understand the Christ of Islam turn to the Qur’an, yet the Qur’an won’t tell them much about Jesus. It mentions his miraculous birth. It refers to miracles such as raising the dead and bringing a clay bird to life. It speaks of his disciples, although it does not give them names.
....
As for his death, the Qur’an relates laconically that the Jews “did not crucify or kill Jesus” and in a following verse that “God raised him up to Himself.” Whether Jesus was killed by someone else and then rose again, or whether he escaped death entirely, is left for the reader to ponder. The Jesus of the Qur’an, in other words, is a figure shrouded in mystery.

Muslim scholars, however, have not left him that way. Instead they record a great variety of stories about Jesus, some of which describe episodes the Qur’an never mentions and others of which offer definitive explanations for things the Qur’an leaves ambiguous.

This history of storytelling, more than the Qur’an itself, shapes the common Islamic understanding of Jesus today, by which Jesus is a prophet who emphasized the spiritual life above all, who valued austerity, and who taught his disciples always to think about the fate of their souls on the Day of Judgment. Any serious appreciation of the Christ of Islam—and in particular of how Muslims think about Jesus today—must involve this history of storytelling. The Christ of Islam, in other words, is not simply the Christ of the Qur’an....
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 08:00:15 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2013, 11:27:24 PM »

I trust the gospels more than I trust Muhammad.
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« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2013, 03:49:11 PM »

I lean more to the  belief that Jesus was crucified (maybe the Qur'an is denyin the Jews causing his death and affirming Jesus being killed by the Romans or just haing God take up him spirit before the effects of the crucifixion take place), but Jesus dying or no doesn't change anything in Islamic theology.
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« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2013, 05:22:36 PM »

I lean more to the  belief that Jesus was crucified (maybe the Qur'an is denyin the Jews causing his death and affirming Jesus being killed by the Romans or just haing God take up him spirit before the effects of the crucifixion take place), but Jesus dying or no doesn't change anything in Islamic theology.

That's interesting...I personally agree and wouldn't think it changes anything in Islamic theology either.  But from what I understand in Egypt, it's a very strong Sunni doctrine to adhere even to the slightest historical details and to adhere to this particular interpretation of the Quran.  Has there been any historical Shia interpretations that contradict the Sunnis?
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« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2013, 12:22:15 PM »

I lean more to the  belief that Jesus was crucified (maybe the Qur'an is denyin the Jews causing his death and affirming Jesus being killed by the Romans or just haing God take up him spirit before the effects of the crucifixion take place), but Jesus dying or no doesn't change anything in Islamic theology.

That's interesting...I personally agree and wouldn't think it changes anything in Islamic theology either.  But from what I understand in Egypt, it's a very strong Sunni doctrine to adhere even to the slightest historical details and to adhere to this particular interpretation of the Quran.  Has there been any historical Shia interpretations that contradict the Sunnis?

I don't know much. But I heard that the early Shias used to believe that Jesus was indeed crucified.
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« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2013, 12:47:17 PM »

I lean more to the  belief that Jesus was crucified (maybe the Qur'an is denyin the Jews causing his death and affirming Jesus being killed by the Romans or just haing God take up him spirit before the effects of the crucifixion take place), but Jesus dying or no doesn't change anything in Islamic theology.

That's interesting...I personally agree and wouldn't think it changes anything in Islamic theology either.  But from what I understand in Egypt, it's a very strong Sunni doctrine to adhere even to the slightest historical details and to adhere to this particular interpretation of the Quran.  Has there been any historical Shia interpretations that contradict the Sunnis?

I don't know much. But I heard that the early Shias used to believe that Jesus was indeed crucified.

This makes no sense. Where have you heard such things?

It is outside the understanding of Islam regarding the fate of a prophet. While the apologetics surrounding the fate of Jesus within Islamic thought differ quite a bit, one they all share as far as I have read is that he didn't die on the cross.

Now if you are saying that some Shias believe that Jesus was crucified then rescued from that fate before dying in that manner, then that would fit into some of the apologetics offered about Jesus' fate.

I've read and heard just about everything I think anyone could imagine on the matter save that Jesus did in fact die on the cross.
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