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Author Topic: Jesus died for your sins - Muslim response  (Read 4317 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 20, 2010, 01:19:38 PM »

Do not fall into error, brother. According to Islam, Jesus never died on the cross, nor ever wanted to die on the cross, nor ever was born to die on the cross.  Muslims believe that Jesus was sentenced to death, and people thought that he got executed on the cross.  The Holy Quran rejects this idea, and claims that it is a false one.  Jesus never died on the cross, nor he ever died for anyone's sins. He is a great messenger of GOD but he is not GOD. To say otherwise would be the highest form of blasphemy. No man can be GOD. There is no God but GOD and Muhammad is his prophet.
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 01:22:54 PM »

Do not fall into error, brother. According to Islam, Jesus never died on the cross, nor ever wanted to die on the cross, nor ever was born to die on the cross.  Muslims believe that Jesus was sentenced to death, and people thought that he got executed on the cross.  The Holy Quran rejects this idea, and claims that it is a false one.  Jesus never died on the cross, nor he ever died for anyone's sins. He is a great messenger of GOD but he is not GOD. To say otherwise would be the highest form of blasphemy. No man can be GOD. There is no God but GOD and Muhammad is his prophet.


 

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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 03:09:21 PM »

Do not fall into error, brother. According to Islam, Jesus never died on the cross, nor ever wanted to die on the cross, nor ever was born to die on the cross. 
Showing it does not know what it is talking about.

Quote
Muslims believe that Jesus was sentenced to death, and people thought that he got executed on the cross.  The Holy Quran rejects this idea,
Which is why we, and history, must reject the Quran.

Quote
and claims that it is a false one.  Jesus never died on the cross, nor he ever died for anyone's sins. He is a great messenger of GOD but he is not GOD. To say otherwise would be the highest form of blasphemy. No man can be GOD. There is no God but GOD and Muhammad is his prophet.
No, he's not.

But Christ is His Only-Begotten Son.
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 03:16:55 PM »

He is a great messenger of GOD but he is not GOD. To say otherwise would be the highest form of blasphemy.

It is a VERY bold statement to hold a man to be God. Is it not? Those are mighty BIG shoes to fill.

Why then do people believe such a grave thing? There must be some substance to the claim, for it to stick.

No man can be GOD.

Of course not.

But you deny that God is incapable of becoming a man? Is this beyond His power? Is this beyond His love?
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 03:26:03 PM »

The thing is this faith according to a false prophet denies God since we know Jesus Christ is God who became man for our salvation. This faith according to false tradition of a man compells us to deny God (although it is said to not force compulsion).
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 03:49:28 PM »

This guy's profile shows him as a clear troll having a laugh at our expense. Let's stop responding to him, and I await the moderators to step in and do something.
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 04:03:09 PM »

I am starting to see two patterns emerge here.
1. Lot's of facepalm.

2. A muslim poster joins the forums, tries to refute Christianity, then fails miserably.

Next.
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 04:09:31 PM »

This guy's profile shows him as a clear troll having a laugh at our expense. Let's stop responding to him, and I await the moderators to step in and do something.


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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 04:38:37 PM »

***BUMP*** 

This bot's nonsense is beginning to multiply into various threads.
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 04:41:57 PM »

This guy's profile shows him as a clear troll having a laugh at our expense. Let's stop responding to him, and I await the moderators to step in and do something.

Dunno bout the OP but I've gotten some cheap lulz.
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2010, 05:46:57 PM »

I am starting to see two patterns emerge here.
1. Lot's of facepalm.

2. A muslim poster joins the forums, tries to refute Christianity, then fails miserably.

Next.

Epic facepalm!

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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2010, 10:36:59 PM »

i know this guy have never read a Bible or history of Christianity, since owing one is punished by jail and death in lot of Muslim countries, also his responses show typical Islamic ignorance about Christianity
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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2010, 10:46:54 PM »

i know this guy have never read a Bible or history of Christianity, since owing one is punished by jail and death in lot of Muslim countries

You seem to know little of the Muslim world. Yes, Taliban Afghanistan may have forbidden possession of the Bible (but it also forbid the possession of most secular books), and Saudi Arabia makes it difficult to import large quantities of Bibles, but that's hardly "a lot". Throughout the vast majority of the Muslim world, people can easily obtain a Bible if they want one. After all, many Muslim countries have substantial Christian minorities, and some that don't like Tajikistan or the North Caucasus have Bible Societies introducing the Scriptures in the local language for free.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 10:50:28 PM by CRCulver » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2010, 11:19:44 PM »

Did somebaody leave the door open again?
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2010, 11:50:07 PM »

Did somebaody leave the door open again?

... or the holes in the chicken wire are bigger than we thought ....  Roll Eyes  Shocked  laugh
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 11:50:32 PM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2010, 11:55:24 PM »

Did somebaody leave the door open again?

... or the holes in the chicken wire are bigger than we thought ....  Roll Eyes  Shocked  laugh

I just had to laugh because I watched The Blues Brother movie last week!!
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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 01:32:56 AM »

i know this guy have never read a Bible or history of Christianity, since owing one is punished by jail and death in lot of Muslim countries

You seem to know little of the Muslim world. Yes, Taliban Afghanistan may have forbidden possession of the Bible (but it also forbid the possession of most secular books), and Saudi Arabia makes it difficult to import large quantities of Bibles, but that's hardly "a lot". Throughout the vast majority of the Muslim world, people can easily obtain a Bible if they want one. After all, many Muslim countries have substantial Christian minorities, and some that don't like Tajikistan or the North Caucasus have Bible Societies introducing the Scriptures in the local language for free.

She said "A lot of Muslim countries", not all.  And although the mere ownership of a Bible may or may not be frowned upon, it's often those believers who make Bibles accessible in many Muslim countries suspect of missionary activity which IS frowned upon in most Muslim countries.  Since you seem to know so much about the Muslim world, surely the abuse of most missionary activity hasn't escaped you. 
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« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 05:00:25 AM »

Response to the Muslim response:

Since the Qur’an denies Jesus’ passion and death with no overt theological reason and fails to provide adequate information on this issue, Muslim commentators feel themselves obliged to derive new solutions to the problematic verse of the Qur’an, running the risk of having conflictive theories. They constantly try to work out new solutions to the remarkable problem of their scripture with regard to Jesus’ death only because they know the bitter truth that their scripture is both theologically and linguistically incompetent in terms of distorting the basic Christian tenet of salvation through the cross.

One wonders why the Qur’an cannot remove the cross out of Jesus’ life altogether and claim that Jesus was never associated with the cross during His prophetic ministry. The authors of the Qur’an astonishingly make the crucifixion an indispensable part of Jesus’ life and mission through their denial of the event by clinging to a theory of illusion. All the Islamic theories that try to negate Jesus’ crucifixion and death eventually converge in the assertion that Jesus had to APPEAR to have been suffered and murdered by people who opposed His teachings and hated Him. The god of the Qur’an surprisingly needs an illusion to deny Jesus’ death on the cross, being unable to wipe the cross off the historical and secular accounts concerning Jesus.

What actually drove the authors of the Qur’an to explain the image of a crucified Messiah with the help of an illusion or appearance was their familiarity with the fact that the historical reality of Jesus’ passion cannot be ignored. Since the testimonies of both Jewish and non-Jewish eyewitnesses made the removal and deletion of the cross from Jesus’ life improbable, the removal of Jesus from the scene of crucifixion was tried as a remedy. This cunning strategy resulted in the depiction of the god of the Qur’an as a deceptive and unreliable deity that concealed the truth about Jesus until Muhammad’s advent. Consequently, the Messiah of the Qur’an was condemned by Muhammad to death only in appearance for the punishment of His adversaries unlike the true Messiah of the New Testament, who died in reality for the salvation of sinful mankind. The New Testament proclaims the crucified Messiah and saved humanity whereas the Qur’an promotes the saved Messiah and punished humanity.


These paragraphs are taken from the Conclusion of the article entitled "A Hoax and its Paradoxes", which can be read at http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/crucifiction_paradoxes.html
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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 11:49:36 AM »

Do not fall into error, brother. According to Islam, Jesus never died on the cross, nor ever wanted to die on the cross, nor ever was born to die on the cross.  Muslims believe that Jesus was sentenced to death, and people thought that he got executed on the cross.  The Holy Quran rejects this idea, and claims that it is a false one.  Jesus never died on the cross, nor he ever died for anyone's sins. He is a great messenger of GOD but he is not GOD. To say otherwise would be the highest form of blasphemy. No man can be GOD. There is no God but GOD and Muhammad is his prophet.

And your point is?

It never ceases to amaze me how people come here trying to convert us from a caraciturized faith that we do not accept to begin with.
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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 03:17:07 PM »

I'm wondering, if this is a drive by ...Never to hear from him again.... Grin
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« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2010, 04:30:51 PM »

I'm wondering, if this is a drive by ...Never to hear from him again.... Grin

I'm thinking the same.  It's not everyday you get to debate something new...  Sad
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« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2010, 05:21:28 PM »

i know this guy have never read a Bible or history of Christianity, since owing one is punished by jail and death in lot of Muslim countries

You seem to know little of the Muslim world. Yes, Taliban Afghanistan may have forbidden possession of the Bible (but it also forbid the possession of most secular books), and Saudi Arabia makes it difficult to import large quantities of Bibles, but that's hardly "a lot". Throughout the vast majority of the Muslim world, people can easily obtain a Bible if they want one. After all, many Muslim countries have substantial Christian minorities, and some that don't like Tajikistan or the North Caucasus have Bible Societies introducing the Scriptures in the local language for free.
In Saudi Arabia, its ILLEGAL to possess a Bible(or bring one in the country). People have been thrown to jail for this. You said its difficult to bring in” large quantities”. Are you kidding me?! People in Islamic world can’t buy a Bible and even though there are minority Christian communities in some of the Islamic countries, they are not even allowed to build churches or try to speak to anyone about Christianity or risk jail, beatings or even being killed. Your views are of someone who only reads what the liberal media puts out and you have a lot to learn what Islam really teaches and how are the Christians treated in Islamic countries
And as for North Caucasus-one of my relatives who lived there(he was Ukranian, Christian Orthodox), was murdered by his Muslim neighbors who have known him for 20 years. His wife and daughter had to flee to Russia to avoid the same fate. That’s what Christians are treated like there, so lets not start on the subject of former Soviet Union republics about which you know nothing about.
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« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2010, 05:42:08 PM »

I think this thread is over.  Clearly stickman seems not wanting to come back, and it seems he was embarrassed enough to remove references in his profile that indicated his specialty in female mutilation.
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« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2010, 06:40:59 PM »

I think this thread is over.  Clearly stickman seems not wanting to come back, and it seems he was embarrassed enough to remove references in his profile that indicated his specialty in female mutilation.

I cannot comment to his absence or presence, since I (and the other mods) don't usually "track" people's online time; but his "jurisdiction" reference was removed by the administration of this forum (myself in particular) as an issue of decorum and in line with our usual standards for conducting oneself in the public areas of the forum.
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« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2010, 06:43:23 PM »

Something I got From the comment section From
Watching a U- tub Video that dealth with the Islamic Subject....


An American Indian, a cowboy, and a muslim were riding on a train across America together. There was an uncomfortable silence, so the indian spoke. Once we were many, but now we are few. The muslim sneered, once we were few here, but now we are many. The cowboy lit up a cigarette, tilted his hat and said, "that's because we haven't played cowboys and muslims yet, but it's a'coming.
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« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2010, 07:04:14 PM »

I think this thread is over.  Clearly stickman seems not wanting to come back, and it seems he was embarrassed enough to remove references in his profile that indicated his specialty in female mutilation.

I cannot comment to his absence or presence, since I (and the other mods) don't usually "track" people's online time; but his "jurisdiction" reference was removed by the administration of this forum (myself in particular) as an issue of decorum and in line with our usual standards for conducting oneself in the public areas of the forum.

Oh...sorry about that.  I take back what I said.
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« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2010, 07:19:41 PM »

Something I got From the comment section From
Watching a U- tub Video that dealth with the Islamic Subject....


An American Indian, a cowboy, and a muslim were riding on a train across America together. There was an uncomfortable silence, so the indian spoke. Once we were many, but now we are few. The muslim sneered, once we were few here, but now we are many. The cowboy lit up a cigarette, tilted his hat and said, "that's because we haven't played cowboys and muslims yet, but it's a'coming.
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« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2010, 07:37:26 PM »

An American Indian, a cowboy, and a muslim were riding on a train across America together. There was an uncomfortable silence, so the indian spoke. Once we were many, but now we are few. The muslim sneered, once we were few here, but now we are many. The cowboy lit up a cigarette, tilted his hat and said, "that's because we haven't played cowboys and muslims yet, but it's a'coming.

I'm sure it's not P.C. to say this, but the cowboy will lose.  I have my reasons for saying this, but won't discuss them here. Wink
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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2010, 08:48:58 PM »

In Saudi Arabia, its ILLEGAL to possess a Bible(or bring one in the country). People have been thrown to jail for this. You said its difficult to bring in” large quantities”. Are you kidding me?!

Saudi Arabia knows perfectly well that individual Christians bring in their Bibles in digital form nowadays and does nothing to stop it. It's the import of printed materials for dissemination that it actively forbids. Anyway, Saudi is not typical for the Muslim world.

Quote
People in Islamic world can’t buy a Bible and even though there are minority Christian communities in some of the Islamic countries, they are not even allowed to build churches or try to speak to anyone about Christianity or risk jail, beatings or even being killed.

There's a large Bible store on the south end of Istiklal, the main shopping street of Istanbul for example. In Cairo, I can readily think of five book shops downtown where a Bible can be had without hassle. "People in Islamic world" sure can "buy a Bible", and a few especially extreme countries don't negate the general rule.

Quote
Your views are of someone who only reads what the liberal media puts out and you have a lot to learn what Islam really teaches and how are the Christians treated in Islamic countries

My views are not based on "the liberal media" but on travelling in the Muslim world and seeing these things for myself. Yes, Christians are oppressed, that's undeniable and you'll note that I speak out against it regularly here, but that does not mean that possession of a Bible is widely illegal.

Quote
And as for North Caucasus-one of my relatives who lived there(he was Ukranian, Christian Orthodox), was murdered by his Muslim neighbors who have known him for 20 years. His wife and daughter had to flee to Russia to avoid the same fate. That’s what Christians are treated like there, so lets not start on the subject of former Soviet Union republics about which you know nothing about.

Victoria, I am a linguist specializing in minority languages of the former Soviet Union. I know a lot about these places because I have travelled there for fieldwork many times. I was just in one not two months ago. I am also in a position to see how efficiently the area is supplied with Bible translations in the local language. The persecution of Christians by Muslims really implies nothing about the legality and availability of Bibles per se.
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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2010, 08:56:31 PM »

An American Indian, a cowboy, and a muslim were riding on a train across America together. There was an uncomfortable silence, so the indian spoke. Once we were many, but now we are few. The muslim sneered, once we were few here, but now we are many. The cowboy lit up a cigarette, tilted his hat and said, "that's because we haven't played cowboys and muslims yet, but it's a'coming.

I'm sure it's not P.C. to say this, but the cowboy will lose.  I have my reasons for saying this, but won't discuss them here. Wink

If I'm thinking what you're thinking  Grin Cheesy
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« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2010, 08:58:24 PM »

An American Indian, a cowboy, and a muslim were riding on a train across America together. There was an uncomfortable silence, so the indian spoke. Once we were many, but now we are few. The muslim sneered, once we were few here, but now we are many. The cowboy lit up a cigarette, tilted his hat and said, "that's because we haven't played cowboys and muslims yet, but it's a'coming.

I'm sure it's not P.C. to say this, but the cowboy will lose.  I have my reasons for saying this, but won't discuss them here. Wink

If I'm thinking what you're thinking  Grin Cheesy


What are you thinking..... Grin
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« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2010, 09:05:03 PM »

Someone here seems to want, the last word..... Grin


In Saudi Arabia, its ILLEGAL to possess a Bible(or bring one in the country). People have been thrown to jail for this. You said its difficult to bring in” large quantities”. Are you kidding me?!

Saudi Arabia knows perfectly well that individual Christians bring in their Bibles in digital form nowadays and does nothing to stop it. It's the import of printed materials for dissemination that it actively forbids. Anyway, Saudi is not typical for the Muslim world.

Quote
People in Islamic world can’t buy a Bible and even though there are minority Christian communities in some of the Islamic countries, they are not even allowed to build churches or try to speak to anyone about Christianity or risk jail, beatings or even being killed.

There's a large Bible store on the south end of Istiklal, the main shopping street of Istanbul for example. In Cairo, I can readily think of five book shops downtown where a Bible can be had without hassle. "People in Islamic world" sure can "buy a Bible", and a few especially extreme countries don't negate the general rule.

Quote
Your views are of someone who only reads what the liberal media puts out and you have a lot to learn what Islam really teaches and how are the Christians treated in Islamic countries

My views are not based on "the liberal media" but on travelling in the Muslim world and seeing these things for myself. Yes, Christians are oppressed, that's undeniable and you'll note that I speak out against it regularly here, but that does not mean that possession of a Bible is widely illegal.

Quote
And as for North Caucasus-one of my relatives who lived there(he was Ukranian, Christian Orthodox), was murdered by his Muslim neighbors who have known him for 20 years. His wife and daughter had to flee to Russia to avoid the same fate. That’s what Christians are treated like there, so lets not start on the subject of former Soviet Union republics about which you know nothing about.

Victoria, I am a linguist specializing in minority languages of the former Soviet Union. I know a lot about these places because I have travelled there for fieldwork many times. I was just in one not two months ago. I am also in a position to see how efficiently the area is supplied with Bible translations in the local language. The persecution of Christians by Muslims really implies nothing about the legality and availability of Bibles per se.
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« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2010, 09:14:42 PM »

I'm sure it's not P.C. to say this, but the cowboy will lose.  I have my reasons for saying this, but won't discuss them here. Wink

If I'm thinking what you're thinking  Grin Cheesy

What are you thinking..... Grin

For me: it's complicated, but deals heavily with fighting tactics and choice of weapons.
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« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2010, 09:15:15 PM »

An American Indian, a cowboy, and a muslim were riding on a train across America together. There was an uncomfortable silence, so the indian spoke. Once we were many, but now we are few. The muslim sneered, once we were few here, but now we are many. The cowboy lit up a cigarette, tilted his hat and said, "that's because we haven't played cowboys and muslims yet, but it's a'coming.

I'm sure it's not P.C. to say this, but the cowboy will lose.  I have my reasons for saying this, but won't discuss them here. Wink

If I'm thinking what you're thinking  Grin Cheesy


What are you thinking..... Grin

It's not PC to say this  Wink but so far I'm agreeing with Fr. George....LOL
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 09:15:57 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2010, 09:19:19 PM »

I'm sure it's not P.C. to say this, but the cowboy will lose.  I have my reasons for saying this, but won't discuss them here. Wink

If I'm thinking what you're thinking  Grin Cheesy

What are you thinking..... Grin

For me: it's complicated, but deals heavily with fighting tactics and choice of weapons.
I understand, suicide strapping explosives,,Dirty fighting..Cowardly Fighting ...and if there losing they complain the world is picking on them...
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2010, 12:00:18 AM »

Do not fall into error, brother. According to Islam, Jesus never died on the cross, nor ever wanted to die on the cross, nor ever was born to die on the cross.  Muslims believe that Jesus was sentenced to death, and people thought that he got executed on the cross.  The Holy Quran rejects this idea, and claims that it is a false one.  Jesus never died on the cross, nor he ever died for anyone's sins. He is a great messenger of GOD but he is not GOD. To say otherwise would be the highest form of blasphemy. No man can be GOD. There is no God but GOD and Muhammad is his prophet.

The Koran tells us that Jesus was crucified until death upon the cross, in more than one place.

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« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2010, 12:14:40 AM »

The Koran tells us that Jesus was crucified until death upon the cross, in more than one place.

Even if so, Muslim popular belief is that Allah snatched him away shortly before the Crucifixion and had some other guy die up there on the cross instead.
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« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2010, 12:20:08 AM »

The Koran tells us that Jesus was crucified until death upon the cross, in more than one place.

Even if so, Muslim popular belief is that Allah snatched him away shortly before the Crucifixion and had some other guy die up there on the cross instead.

What followers of islam believe, and what their book of faith states, are almost entirely in diametric opposition with each other...
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« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2010, 12:30:48 AM »

What followers of islam believe, and what their book of faith states, are almost entirely in diametric opposition with each other...

Even if so, Christians must confront both.
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« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2010, 12:41:52 AM »

What followers of islam believe, and what their book of faith states, are almost entirely in diametric opposition with each other...

Even if so, Christians must confront both.


Educating Muslims on what their book of faith states is the root of change in their theology.

As it stands right now, islam bases an entire theology around one mis-interpreted ayah from their Koran.

Theology based upon one verse is just plain poor theology.
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« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2010, 03:55:18 AM »


The Koran tells us that Jesus was crucified until death upon the cross, in more than one place.


Reference?  Huh
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« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2010, 07:02:47 AM »

Quote
Re: Jesus died for your sins - Muslim response


Jesus be came man for our salvation, death was as followed price to be man. You communicating to much with Romans/Latinas not Christians(Orthodox).
So your topic name is wrong initially.


Before start such discussion at least learn history and Basic if Christianity 

Do not fall into error, brother.


Empty words with out any ground and appropriate foundation.







According to Islam, Jesus never died on the cross, nor ever wanted to die on the cross, nor ever was born to die on the cross.


Islamic teaching about Jesus was establish and (enforced by sword) 6 centuries after Jesus and was mixture of modern Judaism and agnosticism. So basically Islam is not more then witness Jehovah /mormonic secta of 6th century.  No mormons, nor WJ – not credible organisation or real teaching. Same with Islam – it is not religious teaching but governmental system.


What Mohamed may know about man who lived 6 centuries prior? NOTHING!
 Would be Mohamed credible? NO WAY!
Mohamed brain washed poor and ignorant pagans of peninsula and well use them.   








 
Muslims believe .....

Some people believe there is life on mars.




....that Jesus was sentenced to death, and people thought that he got executed on the cross.  The Holy Quran rejects this idea, and claims that it is a false one. 
Muslim accepted any thing quran “say”. …


Jesus never died on the cross, nor he ever died for anyone's sins.
Of course he die not for sin. Allah become man , his name Jesus to save humanity, and flesh part of incarnated Allah was killed by Jewish for he testify about him self , he is God – Yahweh (I am) -  Allah ( Eloah (Lord), Elogim (Lords)).

It is was identify as blasphemy and penalty for it – death.



He is a great messenger of GOD but he is not GOD.

you have rights to say what ever you wish…. What you would do if some one draw imige of Mohamed and spit and shit on it?

Right now you spiting on Allah and you think you can get away free? Poor man.

Of course it is your rights to do it, you are free man till your body die.





To say otherwise would be the highest form of blasphemy.
one more Jewish  style. no thing new.





No man can be GOD.
man cant turn into Allah, but for Allah it is not hard to be came man!
To say otherwise would be the highest form of blasphemy.





There is no God but GOD and Muhammad is his prophet.
we hearing this blasphemy for last 14 centuries.

Peace to you.
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« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2010, 11:57:19 AM »


The Koran tells us that Jesus was crucified until death upon the cross, in more than one place.


Reference?  Huh

 
وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

 
Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157   And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.



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« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2010, 12:19:17 PM »

Bowman=stickman=bowman=stickman
Just starting a new username?
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« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2010, 12:56:22 PM »

Bowman=stickman=bowman=stickman
Just starting a new username?

Hail Mary no brother...
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« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2010, 02:08:28 PM »

Bowman=stickman=bowman=stickman
Just starting a new username?

Hail Mary no brother...
Is this intended to be some kind of expletive?
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« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2010, 03:20:58 PM »


وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

 
Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157   And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.


It is evident that you have your own Qur'an version. A person who has read and studied the standard Qur'an will not fall for your cheap games.
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« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2010, 03:43:05 PM »


The Koran tells us that Jesus was crucified until death upon the cross, in more than one place.


Reference?  Huh
According to a Lahore Ahmadiyya interpretation of the Qur'an, Jesus is not denied having been crucified. He is denied having died as a result:

Sura 4:157 And for their saying: We have
killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of
Mary, the messenger of Allåh, and
they killed him not, nor did they
cause his death on the cross, (a)
but he was made to appear to them as such.(b)
And certainly those who differ therein
are in doubt about it. They have no
knowledge about it, but only follow a
conjecture, and they killed him not
for certain.

Footnotes to Sura 4:157:

157a. The words må salabu-hu do not negative Jesus’ being nailed to the cross;
they negative his having expired on the cross as a result of being nailed to it. Salb is a
well-known way of killing (T, LA).  Salaba-hu means he put him to death in a certain
well-known manner (LL). That Jesus died a natural death is plainly stated in 5:117: “and I
was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to
die, Thou wast the Watcher over them”. See 5:117a. The Gospels contain clear testimony
showing that Jesus Christ escaped death on the cross. The following points may be noted:
(1) Jesus remained on the cross for a few hours only (Mark 15:25; John 19:14) but death
by crucifixion was always tardy. (2) The two men crucified with Jesus were still alive
when taken down from the cross; the presumption is that Jesus too was alive. (3) The
breaking of legs was resorted to in the case of the two criminals, but dispensed with in the
case of Jesus (John 19:32, 33). (4) The side of Jesus being pierced, blood rushed out and
this was a certain sign of life. (5) Even Pilate did not believe that Jesus actually died in so
short a time (Mark 15:44). (6) Jesus was not buried like the two criminals, but was given
into the charge of a wealthy disciple of his, who lavished care on him and put him in a
spacious tomb hewn in the side of a rock (Mark 15:46). (7) When the tomb was seen on
the third day, the stone was found to have been removed from its mouth (Mark 16:4 ) ,
which would not have been the case if there had been a supernatural rising. ( 8 ) Mary,
when she saw him, took him for the gardener (John 20:15), which shows that Jesus had
disguised himself as a gardener. (9) Such disguise would not have been needed if Jesus
had risen from the dead. (10) It was in the same body of flesh that the disciples saw Jesus,
and the wounds were still there deep enough for a man to thrust his hand in (John
20:25–28). (11) He still felt hunger and ate as his disciples ate (Luke 24:39–43).
(12) Jesus Christ undertook a journey to Galilee with two of his disciples walking side by
side with him (Matt. 28:10), which shows that he was fleeing for refuge; a journey to
Galilee was not necessary to rise to heaven. (13) In all post-crucifixion appearances Jesus
is found hiding himself as if he feared being discovered. (14) Jesus Christ prayed the
whole night before his arrest to be saved from the accursed death on the cross, and he
also asked his disciples to pray for him; the prayers of a righteous man in distress and
affliction are always accepted. He seems to have even received a promise from God to be
saved, and it was to this promise that he referred when he cried out on the cross: “My
God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?” Heb. 5:7 makes the matter still more clear,
for there it is plainly stated that the prayer of Jesus was accepted: “When he had offered
up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save
him from death, and was heard in that he feared”.

The statements made in the Qur’ån corroborate the above statements quoted from
the Gospels. Jesus did not die on the cross, nor was he killed as were the two thieves, but
to the Jews he appeared as if he were dead.

157b. The words shubbiha la-hum may bear two interpretations: he was made to be
like (it) or  to resemble (it); or  the matter was made dubious or obscure (LL). The Ruh
al-Ma‘åni says the meaning may be that the matter became dubious to them. The story
that someone else was made to resemble Jesus is not borne out by the words of the
Qur’ån, which could only mean, if an object were mentioned, that Jesus was made to
resemble someone, not that someone was made to resemble Jesus.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 03:44:08 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2010, 04:20:53 PM »

Bowman=stickman=bowman=stickman
Just starting a new username?

Hail Mary no brother...

Sad...
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« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2010, 04:22:11 PM »

Bowman=stickman=bowman=stickman
Just starting a new username?

Hail Mary no brother...
Is this intended to be some kind of expletive?

I think he's trying to say, "i'm one of you" in a tongue-in-cheek, backhanded sort of way. At least that's how I interpreted it.
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« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2010, 04:53:18 PM »


وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

 
Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157   And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.


It is evident that you have your own Qur'an version. A person who has read and studied the standard Qur'an will not fall for your cheap games.

I have never been refuted, brother.
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« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2010, 04:55:54 PM »


According to a Lahore Ahmadiyya interpretation of the Qur'an, Jesus is not denied having been crucified. He is denied having died as a result:

Sura 4:157 And for their saying: We have
killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of
Mary, the messenger of Allåh, and
they killed him not, nor did they
cause his death on the cross, (a)
but he was made to appear to them as such.(b)
And certainly those who differ therein
are in doubt about it. They have no
knowledge about it, but only follow a
conjecture, and they killed him not
for certain.

Footnotes to Sura 4:157:

157a. The words må salabu-hu do not negative Jesus’ being nailed to the cross;
they negative his having expired on the cross as a result of being nailed to it. Salb is a
well-known way of killing (T, LA).  Salaba-hu means he put him to death in a certain
well-known manner (LL). That Jesus died a natural death is plainly stated in 5:117: “and I
was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to
die, Thou wast the Watcher over them”. See 5:117a. The Gospels contain clear testimony
showing that Jesus Christ escaped death on the cross. The following points may be noted:
(1) Jesus remained on the cross for a few hours only (Mark 15:25; John 19:14) but death
by crucifixion was always tardy. (2) The two men crucified with Jesus were still alive
when taken down from the cross; the presumption is that Jesus too was alive. (3) The
breaking of legs was resorted to in the case of the two criminals, but dispensed with in the
case of Jesus (John 19:32, 33). (4) The side of Jesus being pierced, blood rushed out and
this was a certain sign of life. (5) Even Pilate did not believe that Jesus actually died in so
short a time (Mark 15:44). (6) Jesus was not buried like the two criminals, but was given
into the charge of a wealthy disciple of his, who lavished care on him and put him in a
spacious tomb hewn in the side of a rock (Mark 15:46). (7) When the tomb was seen on
the third day, the stone was found to have been removed from its mouth (Mark 16:4 ) ,
which would not have been the case if there had been a supernatural rising. ( 8 ) Mary,
when she saw him, took him for the gardener (John 20:15), which shows that Jesus had
disguised himself as a gardener. (9) Such disguise would not have been needed if Jesus
had risen from the dead. (10) It was in the same body of flesh that the disciples saw Jesus,
and the wounds were still there deep enough for a man to thrust his hand in (John
20:25–28). (11) He still felt hunger and ate as his disciples ate (Luke 24:39–43).
(12) Jesus Christ undertook a journey to Galilee with two of his disciples walking side by
side with him (Matt. 28:10), which shows that he was fleeing for refuge; a journey to
Galilee was not necessary to rise to heaven. (13) In all post-crucifixion appearances Jesus
is found hiding himself as if he feared being discovered. (14) Jesus Christ prayed the
whole night before his arrest to be saved from the accursed death on the cross, and he
also asked his disciples to pray for him; the prayers of a righteous man in distress and
affliction are always accepted. He seems to have even received a promise from God to be
saved, and it was to this promise that he referred when he cried out on the cross: “My
God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?” Heb. 5:7 makes the matter still more clear,
for there it is plainly stated that the prayer of Jesus was accepted: “When he had offered
up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save
him from death, and was heard in that he feared”.

The statements made in the Qur’ån corroborate the above statements quoted from
the Gospels. Jesus did not die on the cross, nor was he killed as were the two thieves, but
to the Jews he appeared as if he were dead.

157b. The words shubbiha la-hum may bear two interpretations: he was made to be
like (it) or  to resemble (it); or  the matter was made dubious or obscure (LL). The Ruh
al-Ma‘åni says the meaning may be that the matter became dubious to them. The story
that someone else was made to resemble Jesus is not borne out by the words of the
Qur’ån, which could only mean, if an object were mentioned, that Jesus was made to
resemble someone, not that someone was made to resemble Jesus.



I know that the Ahmadiyya sect, which is considered heretical by mainstream Islam, adheres to the swoon theory with regard to Jesus' crucifixion. They endorse the crucifixion, but deny Jesus' death and resurrection. Followers of Ahmadiyya support this theory through their peculiar interpretation of the standard Qur'an text though. Bowman, on the other hand, modifies the text itself in order to adapt it to his interpretation.
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« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2010, 05:00:20 PM »


وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

 
Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157   And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.


It is evident that you have your own Qur'an version. A person who has read and studied the standard Qur'an will not fall for your cheap games.

I have never been refuted, brother.

Why the need to refute you when your argument is based on a Qur'an text that exists only in your world of fantasies? People will not even take you seriously because you distort a text to prove your allegations. Thus, this is not a matter of strong and irrefutable theories, but of honesty.
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« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2010, 05:10:17 PM »


I know that the Ahmadiyya sect, which is considered heretical by mainstream Islam, adheres to the swoon theory with regard to Jesus' crucifixion. They endorse the crucifixion, but deny Jesus' death and resurrection. Followers of Ahmadiyya support this theory through their peculiar interpretation of the standard Qur'an text though. Bowman, on the other hand, modifies the text itself in order to adapt it to his interpretation.

What Arabic words are troubling you, brother?
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sainthieu
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« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2010, 05:58:26 PM »

Apparently, Bowman is a Muslim--or an American college student who's been brainwashed by the relativism of the Left. Elsewhere, fro example, he writes that Muslim violence in the Quran is inspired by the violence in the Bible--a remark so egregiously stupid it must not be allowed to pass unchallenged.

Doesn't matter what you call yourself, Stick Man.

Ban and forget.



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Bowman
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« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2010, 06:09:48 PM »

Apparently, Bowman is a Muslim--or an American college student who's been brainwashed by the relativism of the Left. Elsewhere, fro example, he writes that Muslim violence in the Quran is inspired by the violence in the Bible--a remark so egregiously stupid it must not be allowed to pass unchallenged.

Doesn't matter what you call yourself, Stick Man.

Ban and forget.





A meritless assertion on your part.
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Alive
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« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2010, 10:09:07 PM »

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

It is not difficult to interpreting this part with conclusion no one die “literally”.
And what we call “death” – actually is not “death”.  

“death , where is your sting? hell, where is your victory?”


I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

It is not difficult to interpreting this part with conclusion no one die but “literally”.
And what we call “death” – actually is not “death”.  

“death , where is your sting? hell, where is your victory?”


6 centuries most noble, educated and ascetical Christians(including his own mother and apostles) miss basic fact about Jesus crucifixion as well 1000 of 1000 other whom meet Jesus in person after his raise.  

Also it make Romans government unprofessional and Jews look like idiots – them arrest man, and never crucify Him.

It is not just chip Islamic statements – it is show ipoor ntellectual level of Islam teachings.

Honestly, I feel sorry for this people, who was trapped in such naive deception.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 10:10:02 PM by Alive » Logged
Jetavan
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« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2013, 07:59:20 PM »

Quote
Many Christians and other non-Muslims who want to understand the Christ of Islam turn to the Qur’an, yet the Qur’an won’t tell them much about Jesus. It mentions his miraculous birth. It refers to miracles such as raising the dead and bringing a clay bird to life. It speaks of his disciples, although it does not give them names.
....
As for his death, the Qur’an relates laconically that the Jews “did not crucify or kill Jesus” and in a following verse that “God raised him up to Himself.” Whether Jesus was killed by someone else and then rose again, or whether he escaped death entirely, is left for the reader to ponder. The Jesus of the Qur’an, in other words, is a figure shrouded in mystery.

Muslim scholars, however, have not left him that way. Instead they record a great variety of stories about Jesus, some of which describe episodes the Qur’an never mentions and others of which offer definitive explanations for things the Qur’an leaves ambiguous.

This history of storytelling, more than the Qur’an itself, shapes the common Islamic understanding of Jesus today, by which Jesus is a prophet who emphasized the spiritual life above all, who valued austerity, and who taught his disciples always to think about the fate of their souls on the Day of Judgment. Any serious appreciation of the Christ of Islam—and in particular of how Muslims think about Jesus today—must involve this history of storytelling. The Christ of Islam, in other words, is not simply the Christ of the Qur’an....
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 08:00:15 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2013, 11:27:24 PM »

I trust the gospels more than I trust Muhammad.
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« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2013, 03:49:11 PM »

I lean more to the  belief that Jesus was crucified (maybe the Qur'an is denyin the Jews causing his death and affirming Jesus being killed by the Romans or just haing God take up him spirit before the effects of the crucifixion take place), but Jesus dying or no doesn't change anything in Islamic theology.
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« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2013, 05:22:36 PM »

I lean more to the  belief that Jesus was crucified (maybe the Qur'an is denyin the Jews causing his death and affirming Jesus being killed by the Romans or just haing God take up him spirit before the effects of the crucifixion take place), but Jesus dying or no doesn't change anything in Islamic theology.

That's interesting...I personally agree and wouldn't think it changes anything in Islamic theology either.  But from what I understand in Egypt, it's a very strong Sunni doctrine to adhere even to the slightest historical details and to adhere to this particular interpretation of the Quran.  Has there been any historical Shia interpretations that contradict the Sunnis?
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« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2013, 12:22:15 PM »

I lean more to the  belief that Jesus was crucified (maybe the Qur'an is denyin the Jews causing his death and affirming Jesus being killed by the Romans or just haing God take up him spirit before the effects of the crucifixion take place), but Jesus dying or no doesn't change anything in Islamic theology.

That's interesting...I personally agree and wouldn't think it changes anything in Islamic theology either.  But from what I understand in Egypt, it's a very strong Sunni doctrine to adhere even to the slightest historical details and to adhere to this particular interpretation of the Quran.  Has there been any historical Shia interpretations that contradict the Sunnis?

I don't know much. But I heard that the early Shias used to believe that Jesus was indeed crucified.
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« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2013, 12:47:17 PM »

I lean more to the  belief that Jesus was crucified (maybe the Qur'an is denyin the Jews causing his death and affirming Jesus being killed by the Romans or just haing God take up him spirit before the effects of the crucifixion take place), but Jesus dying or no doesn't change anything in Islamic theology.

That's interesting...I personally agree and wouldn't think it changes anything in Islamic theology either.  But from what I understand in Egypt, it's a very strong Sunni doctrine to adhere even to the slightest historical details and to adhere to this particular interpretation of the Quran.  Has there been any historical Shia interpretations that contradict the Sunnis?

I don't know much. But I heard that the early Shias used to believe that Jesus was indeed crucified.

This makes no sense. Where have you heard such things?

It is outside the understanding of Islam regarding the fate of a prophet. While the apologetics surrounding the fate of Jesus within Islamic thought differ quite a bit, one they all share as far as I have read is that he didn't die on the cross.

Now if you are saying that some Shias believe that Jesus was crucified then rescued from that fate before dying in that manner, then that would fit into some of the apologetics offered about Jesus' fate.

I've read and heard just about everything I think anyone could imagine on the matter save that Jesus did in fact die on the cross.
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