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Question: Is the claim that the "Jesus Family Tomb" has Jesus' body right?  (Voting closed: September 09, 2013, 03:03:24 PM)
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No. - 18 (100%)
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Author Topic: Is the claim that the "Jesus Family Tomb" has Jesus' body right?  (Read 1223 times) Average Rating: 0
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rakovsky
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« on: December 15, 2010, 03:03:24 PM »

You may have heard of the James ossuary discovery, an ossuary that has written on it "James the brother of Jesus" The Israeli Antiquities Agency (IAA) considers the ossuary of James to be a forgery.

However, 6 other ossuaries in the tomb (out of 9-10 total) are considered to be authentic:

======================
Jesus son of Joseph
Mariamne
Maria
Joses
Judah son of Jesus
Matthias
(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jesus_Family_Tomb)
==================

One question such a claim leads to is whether there are any records, even in gnostic or apocryphal gospels, that say Jesus had a son named Judah?

A second question would be- how obvious would the tomb have been in 1st-2nd Century Judea? Could someone have happened to walk by and see a tomb, and think, "Hmmm..., somebody's tomb. Whose is that?" Then they ask around and someone tells them it belongs to Maria's family.

So it just happened that in almost 2000 years, no outside party, happened to see inside a tomb, known to belong to Jesus' family, that there was a "Jesus" ossuary inside? The Judaic authorities were so anti-Christian when they ruled Judea in 30-135 AD that the Judaic council of Jamnia pronounced a curse on them 3 times a day at services. St Jerome records such a curse still in effect in the 4th century against the Nazarenes "because they as Jews proclaim Jesus to be the Messiah" [to paraphrase]. The point is that if they were so anti-Christian, it seems that a group tomb belonging to Mary's family would be something they would really want to investigate.

The implications of the claim that the ossuary is Jesus Christ's ossuary are that Jesus' ascenscion and post-resurrection appearances were simply Midrashes (religious commentaries) on His survival of execution, even though the gospels clearly describe the appearances themselves in miraculous terms. Based on such a claim, one would expect that Jesus' body wouldn't be simply hid in a family tomb with everyone else. Assuming that the apostles just made the stuff up, you would think that they would at least try to hide the body better.

The gospels record that "the Jews" accused the Christians of hiding Jesus' body. If the Christians hid the body though, it strongly goes against putting it in a group tomb with 10 other bodies.


Critical thinking needed.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 03:26:44 PM by rakovsky » Logged
Papist
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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2010, 03:23:30 PM »

All of those names were ridiculouly common in 1st century palestine. This would be like finding a tomb with these names now days:

Bob son of Sam
Sara
Jessica
Josh
John son of Bob
Fred

The only thing unique about such a tomb would be how incredibly ununique the names would be.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 03:24:22 PM by Papist » Logged

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podkarpatska
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2010, 03:26:42 PM »

Either NGTV or the History Channel had an informative program on several years ago effectively debunking the whole thing as it applies to Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah. Whether there were similarly named people buried there is not relevant.
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rakovsky
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2010, 03:41:44 PM »

Podkarpatska, Can you please remember a few debunking points from the movie on the History Channel or NPTV?

Papist,

Thanks for responding, Catholic Bro.

One problem with the "Judah son of Jesus" is that (assuming Canonical Christians covered up His family history) I am unaware of apocryphal or gnostic gospels describing Jesus having a son named Judah. Or any son at all.

However, the other names match New Testament names associated with Jesus' family and the apostles
=================
Jesus son of Joseph
Mariamne
Maria
Joses (a brother of Jesus - Mark 6:3)
Matthias (Matthias - another apostle who replaced Judas)
James, the brother of Jesus (the disputed ossuary)
======================

You are right that the names were incredibly common in Judea in the 1st century, like the names "Jesus" and Mary.

On the other hand, the combination of the 4-6 names is rarer. What is the mathematical likelihood of such a combination?

So I think there is a close correspondance between the names and Jesus' family. It's like very strong circumstantial evidence.

At the same time, Critical Thinking is strongly needed for such big claims.

It's true that it's a big claim that Jesus Christ appeared miraculously after resurrecting. But an affirmative claim that he didn't is also a big claim in its implications. The basis for the claim that he didn't- the claim that the tomb is his- is also problematic, because it really isn't hiding his body as was alleged by "the Jews" (suggesting that it was one common claim among many Judeans at the time).
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rakovsky
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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2010, 04:09:21 PM »

From Y Jesus .com :

"Dr. Evans indicates that approximately 100 tombs have been discovered in Jerusalem with the name “Jesus” and 200 with the name “Joseph.” The name “Mary” is on far more."

"Why don’t Cameron and Jacobovici cite scholars who disagree with their conclusions?" Wow.

"Why are Jacobovici and Cameron waiting until just prior to Easter to launch both the book and documentary?"


The site also said that the ossuaries, including I assume the Jesus ossuary, had been re-used 35 times total. So you could have a situation where an ossuary was made for Jesus, but he resurrected and wasn't put in it.
After all, Isaiah 53 actually says that a grave was made for Him with criminals/the rich. But it doesn't say that he was put in it. So we might actually expect that some grave was made for him that he didn't stay in.

Wow dude.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 04:10:32 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2010, 04:16:18 PM »

From the "Rapture Ready" website:

"The James ossuary could not have come from this tomb. Soil samples taken from inside the
James ossuary clearly links it with Kidron Valley area, not Talpiot. This matches the testimony
of Oded Golan (the owner of the James Ossuary) who says the ossuary came from Silwan (in the
Kidron Valley)."


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am sorry I even put this to a vote. Keep your mind open and your critical thinking sharp, brothers.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 04:18:08 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2010, 05:09:24 PM »

Inscriptions are not difficult to fake if one knows what one is doing. There is something of an industry involving adding inscriptions to antiquities. It makes them exponentially more valuable.
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2010, 08:18:06 PM »

Thanks, Shanghai.

The story by the "Jesus Tomb" proposers is that the proposed "James brother of Jesus" ossuary comes from the proposed "Jesus Tomb" in Talpiot (not the Kidron valley).

But:
Quote
Oded Golan (the owner of the James Ossuary) who says the ossuary came from Silwan (in the Kidron Valley)."

Yet if you type in Jesus Tomb in a google search, alot of articles come up about the supposed amazing discovery. What is going on? This is not archeology.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 08:18:48 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 02:31:19 PM »

Seeing as Jesus did not resurrect from the dead, the claim could be right.
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 02:56:59 PM »

Seeing as Jesus did not resurrect from the dead, the claim could be right.

Did someone ask for a Mohammedanistic viewpoint?
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2010, 03:59:46 PM »

Podkarpatska, Can you please remember a few debunking points from the movie on the History Channel or NPTV?

Papist,

Thanks for responding, Catholic Bro.

One problem with the "Judah son of Jesus" is that (assuming Canonical Christians covered up His family history) I am unaware of apocryphal or gnostic gospels describing Jesus having a son named Judah. Or any son at all.

However, the other names match New Testament names associated with Jesus' family and the apostles
=================
Jesus son of Joseph
Mariamne
Maria
Joses (a brother of Jesus - Mark 6:3)
Matthias (Matthias - another apostle who replaced Judas)
James, the brother of Jesus (the disputed ossuary)
======================

You are right that the names were incredibly common in Judea in the 1st century, like the names "Jesus" and Mary.

On the other hand, the combination of the 4-6 names is rarer. What is the mathematical likelihood of such a combination?

So I think there is a close correspondance between the names and Jesus' family. It's like very strong circumstantial evidence.

At the same time, Critical Thinking is strongly needed for such big claims.

It's true that it's a big claim that Jesus Christ appeared miraculously after resurrecting. But an affirmative claim that he didn't is also a big claim in its implications. The basis for the claim that he didn't- the claim that the tomb is his- is also problematic, because it really isn't hiding his body as was alleged by "the Jews" (suggesting that it was one common claim among many Judeans at the time).
I agree with you that bringing together the names makes for strong circumstantial evidence. BUT if this really was Jesus Tomb, Christianity would have died out in the first generation. If all the Jews and Romans had to do was say, "look, here is the tomb, and Jesus Body", then the resurrection would have been discredited immediately, and Christianity, as we know it, would not exist today.
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rakovsky
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2010, 04:39:32 PM »

Papist,

Thanks what I said.

I wish someone would please lock this thread. The topic is basically a troll created by semi-archeology (see above).
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 04:40:10 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2010, 05:09:49 PM »

Seeing as Jesus did not resurrect from the dead, the claim could be right.

Did someone ask for a Mohammedanistic viewpoint?

It was explained to me by a muslim that they believe that Jesus ascended to heaven at the end of his life without dieing. It seems that even then, there would be no dead body to be found in a tomb.
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« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2010, 12:37:39 PM »

Seeing as Jesus did not resurrect from the dead, the claim could be right.

That is not a Muslim belief. The Qur'an teaches that Jesus didn't even die but rather taken up by God.

“That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, God raised him up unto the himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise.” (Qur'an 4:157-158)
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 12:38:27 PM by Andrew21091 » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2010, 02:59:42 PM »

A shia Friend of mine said ,that jesus when he comes back to the earth ,he will get married and have a family.....
They must of got confused when jesus talks about himself  as the Bridegroom, and church as  his Bride.... Grin
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 03:01:07 PM by stashko » Logged

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