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Author Topic: Muslims worshipping in Church  (Read 3984 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2011, 09:46:25 PM »

Perpetual Virginity.

Actually Muslims don't, or at least officially shouldn't believe in St. Mary's Perpetual Virginity. The Suras teach that she is one of the brides of Mohammad in paradise, providing him with all the pleasures of marriage. I am seriously not a fan of Islam.

I highly recommend the film Of Gods and Men.

I enjoyed it.
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« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2011, 10:42:23 PM »

Perpetual Virginity.

Actually Muslims don't, or at least officially shouldn't believe in St. Mary's Perpetual Virginity. The Suras teach that she is one of the brides of Mohammad in paradise, providing him with all the pleasures of marriage. I am seriously not a fan of Islam.

I highly recommend the film Of Gods and Men.

I enjoyed it.

I suppose if any of us were seriously fans of Islam, we would be Muslim.  laugh
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« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2011, 11:08:26 PM »

Orthonorm, I do not understand your post about the supposed theological similarities we have with Islam. Yes, in Islam 'Isa (not the true Christ) will return to judge mankind...according to the law of Islam, which is what he will profess (having always been a Muslim, and a "prophet" of subordinate status to Muhammad at that). Accordingly, he will break the crosses and condemn us for having made a false God out of him. That's right, the "Jesus" figure of Islam: Damning Christians to hell for not following the religion of Muhammad.

And I would call Islam's ahistorical and insulting narrative wherein all past prophets are Muslim, Christ is not God because God does not beget (after all, He has "no consort"!), and the holy virgin St. Mary is a wife of Muhammad in Islam's debased carnal "heaven" to be the height of slander against the Theotokos, Christ, and literally everything about the holy Christian faith. They should like us to accept them because they claim "Abrahamic" roots and have mutilated our scriptures and various apocryphal writings in producing their God-damned book so as to produce some assumed similarities between us and them (a useful tool for converting those who saw/see Islam as a simplified Christianity). John of Damascus, the monk at Bet Hale and the other early Syrian Christians, and virtually everyone else in the history of our religion has known better. Islam is an abomination.


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« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2011, 11:28:32 PM »

Isn't the article simply about some kind Christian people giving a helping hand to other people in need? Isn't that what Christians are supposed to do? They were asked if they would share their roof with Muslims and they said yes. Good on them, IMO. Makes a nice change from the depressing "they're out to get us" stuff. I'm not getting why this thread has become so involved with theology that we all know isn't Christian. 
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« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2011, 01:47:27 AM »

Orthonorm, I do not understand your post about the supposed theological similarities we have with Islam. Yes, in Islam 'Isa (not the true Christ) will return to judge mankind...according to the law of Islam, which is what he will profess (having always been a Muslim, and a "prophet" of subordinate status to Muhammad at that). Accordingly, he will break the crosses and condemn us for having made a false God out of him. That's right, the "Jesus" figure of Islam: Damning Christians to hell for not following the religion of Muhammad.

And I would call Islam's ahistorical and insulting narrative wherein all past prophets are Muslim, Christ is not God because God does not beget (after all, He has "no consort"!), and the holy virgin St. Mary is a wife of Muhammad in Islam's debased carnal "heaven" to be the height of slander against the Theotokos, Christ, and literally everything about the holy Christian faith. They should like us to accept them because they claim "Abrahamic" roots and have mutilated our scriptures and various apocryphal writings in producing their God-damned book so as to produce some assumed similarities between us and them (a useful tool for converting those who saw/see Islam as a simplified Christianity). John of Damascus, the monk at Bet Hale and the other early Syrian Christians, and virtually everyone else in the history of our religion has known better. Islam is an abomination.





And yet, closer to us than the Jews. That's what I am saying. As a Christian heresy, they still have more in common with us than those who . . .

Oh forget it. You obviously got . . . oh well we ain't private yet.
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« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2011, 03:06:32 AM »


The Koran calls Jesus Al-Masih, the Christ. Muhammad just didn't understand what that meant.

Yes. This is why in the early period of the Qur'an (prior to Muhammad's migration) Jesus is never designated as the Christ (al-Masih). We see this title attached to Jesus' name in the Surahs (chapter) of the late period, yet with no explanation of its meaning. It seems that Muhammad heard this title from Christians and considered it an alternate name or surname.
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« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2011, 03:43:50 AM »


Except Rabbinical Jews don't see Him as a Christ. That is why the Muslims are actually closer to us than nearly any stripe of Jews.


Sorry, but this is shallow reasoning. The Qur'an attaches the title "the Christ" to Jesus' name, but does not state what it means. More, the Qur'an says that "Jesus is nothing more than a prophet" in Surah 5.

We actually have more in common theologically.

You are kidding, right?  Huh

Virgin Birth.

Muslim faith in the virgin birth does not have the same theological reasons and implications as Christian faith.

Which is worse? Denial or distortion?

Perpetual Virginity.

Muhammad got this teaching from Christian tradition.

Major Prophet.

Islam does not teach that there are major and minor prophets. It only says that Jesus was a prophet that was given a divine revelation and sent to the Children of Israel. Still, in Surah 5 it is emphasized that Jesus was nothing more than a prophet.

Virgin Mary worthy of veneration.

As the Muslim mother of Jesus the Muslim prophet and like many other Muslim women of the past.

Jesus Christ will come to judge the living and the dead at the end of this age.

This teaching does not exist in the Qur'an, but only in Islamic tradition. According to the Hadith, Jesus wil come not to judge the living and the dead, but to condemn, fight, and convert Jews and Christians to Islam. He will destroy the cross, kill the swine, and tear down synagogues and churches.

No ridiculous slander about the Theotokos or Christ in their writings.

Considering Virgin Mary one of Muhammad's brides in heaven...
Allah interrogating Jesus on the Day of Judgment and asking Him if He taught Christians to worship Him and His mother as two gods...
Jesus depicted as a Muslim messenger prophesying Muhammad's advent...

These are not enough?  Roll Eyes

All of these are point of agreement we can enter into with our heterodox Muslims, but not so with Rabbinical Jews.

I cannot see any agreement.

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« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2011, 03:45:45 AM »


Actually Muslims don't, or at least officially shouldn't believe in St. Mary's Perpetual Virginity. The Suras teach that she is one of the brides of Mohammad in paradise, providing him with all the pleasures of marriage. I am seriously not a fan of Islam.


The stupid claim that Virgin Mary will be married to Muhammad in heaven is not stated in the Qur'an. It can be found in the Islamic tradition only.
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« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2011, 03:48:28 AM »

I cannot see any agreement.
Agreed.

Honestly just the rejection of a Trinitarian God puts them miles away from us just as much as the Rabbinical Jews are.
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« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2011, 03:49:22 AM »


And yet, closer to us than the Jews. That's what I am saying. As a Christian heresy, they still have more in common with us than those who . . .


Wrong premise and faulty conclusion. Islam is not a Christian heresy. It is of pagan origin. Further, Muhammad plagiarized more from the Talmud than from the apocryphal writings of Christianity. This is why Islam looks more similar to Rabbinical Judaism than Christianity.

The Lord declared: "The salvation is from the Jews". No use debating...
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« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2011, 04:02:02 AM »


And yet, closer to us than the Jews. That's what I am saying. As a Christian heresy, they still have more in common with us than those who . . .


Wrong premise and faulty conclusion. Islam is not a Christian heresy. It is of pagan origin. Further, Muhammad plagiarized more from the Talmud than from the apocryphal writings of Christianity. This is why Islam looks more similar to Rabbinical Judaism than Christianity.

The Lord declared: "The salvation is from the Jews". No use debating...

Great post. When I was looking at world religions seriously, I was shocked to find Islam having pagan origins.



It's funny how Islam and Mormonism both can be debunked so much easily, I'm surprised critics don't go after both on a more public level; it's way too easy I think.
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« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2011, 11:42:53 AM »

Wrong premise and faulty conclusion. Islam is not a Christian heresy.

The idea that Islam is a Christian heresy was popular in earlier eras. It seems less so now that more Christians have been exposed to Islamic theology. Interestingly, the Syriacs who first encountered Islam mostly wrote of it in apocalyptic terms rather than writing against it theologically, as John of Damascus and others did among the Byznatines. Syriac disputations of Islam came later in the eighth century with the famous disputation between the Muslim emir and the monk of Bet Hale (c.720s) and various works after that. It could be that this idea that Islam is a Christian heresy held sway for quite a while because it was written about in those terms (John Damascene does say Muhammad "devised his own heresy"), and the Muslims made a lot of effort to try to connect their religion to ours in those days, as part of converting us to it. Granted, they were never very good at that (see quote below), and still aren't, but it apparently worked/works. It is probably for this reason that when the Church of the East was losing so much of its flock in the Arabian peninsula (e.g., Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, etc. all used to have active churches), the Patriarch did not even blame the Muslims, but instead blamed the laxity of the priests and monks, and poor catechesis that plagued the church as a result. (see: Dr. Suha Rossam "Christianity in Iraq")

"Against those who while professing to accept the Old Testament, and acknowledging the coming of Christ, our Lord, are far removed from both of them, and they demand from us an apology for our faith, not from all of the scriptures, but from those which they acknowledge." (Theodore Bar Koni, c.792)
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« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2011, 11:46:19 AM »

I don't know the correct answer, but isn't this a way of sharing the Christian faith with Muslims? Not actively proseltysing, but showing love and concern for them - giving them shelter for their needs?



This is what I was leaning toward.  Jesus seemed to say and do a lot of things that were a little bit out of the ordinary.  I seem to think that if he were walking the earth today, and was faced with this situation, he would let them use the building. This would likely leave a lot of Christians shocked.  But he used to leave people shocked back in his day too...  

I could be wrong, but maybe this would be a way of showing love and acceptance to Muslims when most Christians avoid them like the plague.  Maybe some good could come from it.  Who knows....
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« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2011, 12:09:55 PM »

Ah, yes, but Jesus Christ also told his disciples to be "wise as serpents", because He sent them out as sheep into a world full of wolves. To treat all Muslims as though they are wolves might not be right, but we should never forget that their religion, at least, does seek to devour us by various means. And as it is not from God, we can never be too steadfast in opposing it, even as we may help Muslims on a case-by-case basis (I would add "so long as it does not help their religion", but...well, you've seen the story in the OP).

As to helping their religion, I don't think there should or can be any compromise. It is the spirit of the anti-Christ that denies the divinity of Jesus. You would suggest that we help those laboring under such possession to continue to do so and continue to grow, rather than truly follow the Savior's example and tell them (for instance) to be baptized of water and spirit, in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit? I should hope not. That is not being Christian at all.

The Muslims are not helpless doves who need us to nurse them while they await the building of new nests (from which they will preach damnation and violence against us). Let their fellow heretics take them in so that they can pray to their false god in peace in their own places, lest the whole world end up being forced to nurture heresy (or what? Be thought of as "mean"? Well I can't think of anything worse than that!), like the Christians in the Middle East who cannot so much as politely disagree with Islam or Muslims without bringing calamity upon their entire church (see: basically anything that happens in Egypt). Humanitarian needs are one thing. Spiritual delusions are another.
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« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2011, 12:22:37 PM »

I don't know the correct answer, but isn't this a way of sharing the Christian faith with Muslims? Not actively proseltysing, but showing love and concern for them - giving them shelter for their needs?



This is what I was leaning toward.  Jesus seemed to say and do a lot of things that were a little bit out of the ordinary.  I seem to think that if he were walking the earth today, and was faced with this situation, he would let them use the building. This would likely leave a lot of Christians shocked.  But he used to leave people shocked back in his day too...  

I could be wrong, but maybe this would be a way of showing love and acceptance to Muslims when most Christians avoid them like the plague.  Maybe some good could come from it.  Who knows....

I could also see Him calling them out for their false beliefs and rejecting of Him.
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« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2011, 12:59:20 PM »

I don't know the correct answer, but isn't this a way of sharing the Christian faith with Muslims? Not actively proseltysing, but showing love and concern for them - giving them shelter for their needs?



This is what I was leaning toward.  Jesus seemed to say and do a lot of things that were a little bit out of the ordinary.  I seem to think that if he were walking the earth today, and was faced with this situation, he would let them use the building. This would likely leave a lot of Christians shocked.  But he used to leave people shocked back in his day too...  

I could be wrong, but maybe this would be a way of showing love and acceptance to Muslims when most Christians avoid them like the plague.  Maybe some good could come from it.  Who knows....

I could also see Him calling them out for their false beliefs and rejecting of Him.

true. 

and i meant to add to my post that maybe using the building would be so much of an issue since the Church is more than just a building anyways.  that doesnt change your point, and you are probably right.  i just forgot to add that to my original post.
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« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2011, 01:17:52 PM »

I cannot see any agreement.
Agreed.

Honestly just the rejection of a Trinitarian God puts them miles away from us just as much as the Rabbinical Jews are.

When the Muslims start writing about Jesus boiling for eternity in excrement, get back to me. And everyone know I ain't one of those folks.
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« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2011, 03:20:29 PM »

Why judge the Muslims favorably by the yardstick of the Jews? Can one who does the work of anti-Christ be "better" than another who does that same work by different means or using different words?
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« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2011, 05:16:03 PM »

I think that I'm going to have to go with playing the "love your enemy and do good to those who would like to rip out your throat" card, here (not saying that I feel that about Muslims, but that is a yardstick by which to judge all such situations) and say that letting them using the building was a good deed to someone different, no matter what their beliefs.  angel Wink And I hope something good has come of it.
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