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« on: December 15, 2010, 12:51:01 PM »

Would it be against canon law to have a Muslim group temporarily use a basement or community center associated with an Orthodox parish?

"MANCHESTER (Connecticut)
While local Muslims work to open a new mosque in a Cottage Street house, they have been worshipping in space provided by a local church..

Local Muslims working to open a mosque in a Cottage Street house have been worshipping in space provided by St. Mary's Episcopal Church.

The Association of Muslim Community recently received a variance from the zoning board of appeals to establish a place of worship at 46 Cottage St. Association Treasurer Tarek Ambia said Friday that the association still needs a special permit from the town to open the mosque.

The group of 35 to 40 residents, first- or second-generation immigrants from Bangladesh, Pakistan and India, has been worshiping since January at St. Mary's on Park Street. The Muslim worshipers pay a nominal fee to use the church's basement, the Rev. Paul Briggs of St. Mary's said.

"I inquired of the leadership to see if there were any objections, and no one had any objections," Briggs said. "We were glad to welcome them.""
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 12:51:31 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2010, 12:01:43 PM »

Allah akbar! GOD is great!
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« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2010, 12:48:53 PM »

Would it be against canon law to have a Muslim group temporarily use a basement or community center associated with an Orthodox parish?

That happened in Damascus, in the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist.  It's now the Umayyad Mosque.

There is a litttle mosque next to the Church of the Resurrection. The Caliph Umar prayed there, lest the Muslims seize the CoR.

Quote
"MANCHESTER (Connecticut)
While local Muslims work to open a new mosque in a Cottage Street house, they have been worshipping in space provided by a local church..

Local Muslims working to open a mosque in a Cottage Street house have been worshipping in space provided by St. Mary's Episcopal Church.

The Association of Muslim Community recently received a variance from the zoning board of appeals to establish a place of worship at 46 Cottage St. Association Treasurer Tarek Ambia said Friday that the association still needs a special permit from the town to open the mosque.

The group of 35 to 40 residents, first- or second-generation immigrants from Bangladesh, Pakistan and India, has been worshiping since January at St. Mary's on Park Street. The Muslim worshipers pay a nominal fee to use the church's basement, the Rev. Paul Briggs of St. Mary's said.

"I inquired of the leadership to see if there were any objections, and no one had any objections," Briggs said. "We were glad to welcome them.""


Knowing about how things have gotten in the Episcoplian community, I'm suprised the Muslims weren't allowed to use the church.  They might have, and the Muslims objected.

As to letting them use Orthodox facilities, outside the Church, there shouldn't be a problem on our side, but not if they ask to take the icons down while they are there (there is a tradition of that in Albania).  In the Middle East, Muslims come to Christian shrines all the time-you have to go where the blessing is.  They actually have a right to pray at the tomb of the Theotokos.
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« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2010, 12:49:21 PM »

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Christ is born! Glorify Him!
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« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2010, 01:07:18 PM »

Absolutely not. The moment Muslims allow a Christian to worship in a mosque, I might start to consider it--maybe. The moment you can take a Bible into Saudi Arabia without being arrested--maybe. The moment a Muslim's life isn't in danger because he has converted to Christianity--maybe.

No.
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« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2010, 01:18:31 PM »


As to letting them use Orthodox facilities, outside the Church, there shouldn't be a problem on our side, but not if they ask to take the icons down while they are there (there is a tradition of that in Albania).  In the Middle East, Muslims come to Christian shrines all the time-you have to go where the blessing is.  They actually have a right to pray at the tomb of the Theotokos.

Seriously?  No problem?

I understand in helping our neighbor...and I would feed and cloth a muslim, however, I would NOT allow them to worship their false deity under the roof of God's house.

...as long as they don't ask to take the icons down?   What about entering the Altar?   Is someone going to stand there and make sure they don't?  Or is that also permissible since they are men?

Are we going to allow Wiccan in, as well?

Where is the limit?





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« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2010, 01:32:10 PM »

You got to realize that in Muslim countries where Christians are the minority, the Christians may not have a choice.  Also, the Muslims do respect the Mother of God and sometimes venerate her.

I have a friend from Baghdad who said that there is a church near the university there, and during exam week you could see Muslim students in there praying to the Mother of God for success on their exams.
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« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2010, 01:41:38 PM »

You got to realize that in Muslim countries where Christians are the minority, the Christians may not have a choice.  Also, the Muslims do respect the Mother of God and sometimes venerate her.

I have a friend from Baghdad who said that there is a church near the university there, and during exam week you could see Muslim students in there praying to the Mother of God for success on their exams.

I am not living in a "muslim" country, just yet.   Here, I would find it sacrilegious to allow them to worship their false god under our sanctuary's roof.

Worshiping the Mother of God?  They don't believe that Christ was God...therefore, why are they worshiping the Theotokos? 

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« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2010, 01:43:59 PM »

You got to realize that in Muslim countries where Christians are the minority, the Christians may not have a choice.  Also, the Muslims do respect the Mother of God and sometimes venerate her.

I have a friend from Baghdad who said that there is a church near the university there, and during exam week you could see Muslim students in there praying to the Mother of God for success on their exams.
And do they call her Theotokos? Mother of God?
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« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2010, 01:50:16 PM »

I think they just refer to her as the Virgin Mary or the Mother of Jesus.  They don't believe that she is Mother of God.  Many Muslims do venerate her, though.  As Isa mentioned, Muslims will visit Christian shrines set up for her. 
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« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2010, 01:52:31 PM »

I think they just refer to her as the Virgin Mary or the Mother of Jesus.  They don't believe that she is Mother of God.  Many Muslims do venerate her, though.  As Isa mentioned, Muslims will visit Christian shrines set up for her.  

All Muslims venerate her as the mother of a past Islamic prophet named Isa, not as the mother of Jesus the Savior.

There is also a scandalous Hadith that describes the Virgin as a Houri married to Muhammad in heaven.  Angry

Read these articles:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/mary.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/imran_father1.html
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 01:54:59 PM by Theophilos78 » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2010, 01:56:30 PM »


As to letting them use Orthodox facilities, outside the Church, there shouldn't be a problem on our side, but not if they ask to take the icons down while they are there (there is a tradition of that in Albania).  In the Middle East, Muslims come to Christian shrines all the time-you have to go where the blessing is.  They actually have a right to pray at the tomb of the Theotokos.

Seriously?  No problem?

I understand in helping our neighbor...and I would feed and cloth a muslim, however, I would NOT allow them to worship their false deity under the roof of God's house.

...as long as they don't ask to take the icons down?   What about entering the Altar?   Is someone going to stand there and make sure they don't?  Or is that also permissible since they are men?

Are we going to allow Wiccan in, as well?

Where is the limit?
"Outside the Church"

I don't care if they use the Church hall. But most Church Halls I know have icons in them. They don't get removed.  The Kaaba in the days of Muhammad, according to the Muslims, had an icon of Christ and the Theotokos in it. According to them, Muhammad covered it with his body and told his followers to destroy everything else in the Kaaba.
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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2011, 02:08:55 AM »

As one raised in islam, I wonder if our Orthodox leaders know basic islamic doctrine?  St. Gregory Palamas revealed 700 years ago: "Mohammad came with war, knives, pillaging, forced enslavements, murders & acts that are not from the Good God, but instigated by the chief manslayer, the devil." And in 1547 a.d., on his way to be burned alive by faithful muslims, Orthodox Christian Martyr St. Michael from Thessaloníki said: "Mohammad is a liar & deceiver, NOT a prophet of Allah.I believe in The LORD Jesus Christ who is True God, my Creator & Maker. I am ready if necessary to suffer tortures for his love. Whatever money I have, take it to buy wood for the fire you threaten me with, causee I don't want muslim paid wood to send me to meet my LORD." And workers of the evil one proceeded to burn a holy man of God alive as they had done so many times since the time of mohammad.

Muslims teach that Christ is NOT the Son of God, but to call him the Son of God is equal to blasphemy. In islam, we are taught that Jesus did not die on the cross and he was no man's savior. Since our trusted Orthodox Church fathers were led by The Holy Spirit to guide the Church in our Ecumenical councils to openly dethrone Bishops who taught the evil of Arianism, and not allow Arians to lead worship in our Holy Orthodox Church and our Orthodox Buildings, how could anyone ever think it right to have a mosque inside of a Church? When muslims had us under a sword and forced us to do this, it still ended up becoming a mosque. Has anyone seen Hagia Sophia with mohammad and Allah openly honored, our Icons dishonored and even a recent request to worship inside of Hagia Sophia by Orthodox members was denied by islamic government? Do Orthodox know that islamic theology has always taught that all Christians are kafir/najes infidels worthy of death and to be tolerated only for a season if they agree to financially provide as slaves of islam, for the propagation of islam? Has anyone seen how many Orthodox Saints have been martyred by faithful muslims for the last 1388 years?

Here is a couple of links that might be a good beginning to understand the nature of mohammad's teaching in the qur'an and how Orthodox understand the experience:

http://patriotstatesman.com/2011/01/our-military-arsenal-used-by-moderate-muslim-allies-to-stop-church-services/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omSgUPydzdc&feature=related Fr. Zakaria

LORD Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on us.
If you would like to know more, can friend me on fb at http://www.facebook.com/ServantCEO where I provide regular updates on islam and our responses.

humbly in Christ,
Anthony
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2011, 02:20:09 AM »

Would it be against canon law to have a Muslim group temporarily use a basement or community center associated with an Orthodox parish?
Hmm.  Define "associated with".  If it's a basement of a church, the answer would hopefully be "NO".  If it's a community center owned and used by Orthodox Christians, it more than likely has icons adorning the walls.  They absolutely must stay up and may not be covered.  That being the case, I cannot imagine (just thinking back on my own Islamic past) that any Muslim would want to pray there. 

Local Muslims working to open a mosque in a Cottage Street house have been worshipping in space provided by St. Mary's Episcopal Church.
An Episcopal church allowing Muslims to worship their false deity?  Surprise, surprise, surprise.  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2011, 07:54:37 PM »

An Episcopal church allowing Muslims to worship their false deity?  Surprise, surprise, surprise.  Roll Eyes
You no like New England Episcopalians? Grin Here are some Tennessee evangelicals who welcomed Muslims:


"Having no qualms about Muslims using the same space we use for worship has everything to do with our understanding of the nature of the church. As we all know, the church is a people, not a building. There is nowhere in the teaching of Jesus or the rest of the New Testament witness that refers to the church as a place. The church is the faithful who spend life with Jesus together, according to his teachings and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
....
The space we use for worship is also used for sports banquets, dinner theater, scout ceremonies, rock concerts, and zumba. If you believe a certain space is holy in itself, say a space named the sanctuary of a church, what happens to its holiness when that building becomes a restaurant or a bar or a bed and breakfast? Is it still a holy space? Where did the holiness go?
....
One of the most troubling components in the current dialogue about relationships between Jesus followers and Muslims is the charge that Muslims do not worship the one true God, indeed that they are idolaters. I wonder if people who say that would make the same charge against Jews who also do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. The Muslims with whom I share relationships of love and trust tell me they worship the same God I do and the Jews do. According to my faith, they cannot do it to the fullest because Jesus is the full revelation of God—God in flesh and blood. But who am I to say that they do not worship the one true God according to their understanding? Jesus reserved his sternest warnings for those who would dare take the place of God and pass judgment on the heart of another. Heartsong and I do not dare do this. Be careful, sisters and brothers, that you also do not."
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 07:56:37 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2011, 08:16:24 PM »

Quote
The space we use for worship is also used for sports banquets, dinner theater, scout ceremonies, rock concerts, and zumba. If you believe a certain space is holy in itself, say a space named the sanctuary of a church, what happens to its holiness when that building becomes a restaurant or a bar or a bed and breakfast? Is it still a holy space? Where did the holiness go?

Orthodox churches are consecrated, and this consecration includes the embedding of a saint's relic within the altar/holy table. This is but one factor in the holiness of an Orthodox church building. Should, for whatever reason, the church building need to be vacated, there is a procedure of deconsecration, which includes locating and removing the holy relic from the altar.

The "worship spaces" of post-reformation, non-sacramental churches/sects are simply rooms, not holy places.
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« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2011, 05:22:09 AM »

That's not totally out of the ordinary.

The Episcopal Cathedral here in the Diocese of Massachusetts has Wednesday night "hip-hop worship" and Friday afternoon Muslim prayers.

Also recently at the cathedral, two local Episcopal priestesses got "married" in a ceremony celebrated by the bishop.



Rank in terms of unsuitability, I would put the Muslim prayers at #2.

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« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2011, 06:06:21 PM »

An Episcopal church allowing Muslims to worship their false deity?  Surprise, surprise, surprise.  Roll Eyes


They had a show about that in Canada.
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2011, 07:04:52 AM »

Orthodox Christian Martyr St. Michael from Thessaloníki said: "Mohammad is a liar & deceiver, NOT a prophet of Allah.I believe in The LORD Jesus Christ who is True God, my Creator & Maker. I am ready if necessary to suffer tortures for his love. Whatever money I have, take it to buy wood for the fire you threaten me with, causee I don't want muslim paid wood to send me to meet my LORD."

Sorry for the thread bump, but this caused me a good twenty minutes of laughter and tears and riffing chatting with some folks.

The has got to be my favorite quote from a Saint. Ever.

If Kentucky goes Orthodox, this will be their patron Saint.

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« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2011, 01:01:55 PM »

So what is the big deal?  Muslims have been worshipping in Christian churches fro centuries, as long as they can convert them to mosques!!!!!
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2011, 01:13:43 PM »

If you go to any Christian pilgrimage site in the Middle East, you'll find Muslims going there to pray. That said, they don't usually perform the required ritual prayers (salat) in such places, but rather petitionary prayer (du'a)....
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« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2011, 02:42:09 PM »

That's not totally out of the ordinary.

The Episcopal Cathedral here in the Diocese of Massachusetts has Wednesday night "hip-hop worship" and Friday afternoon Muslim prayers.

Also recently at the cathedral, two local Episcopal priestesses got "married" in a ceremony celebrated by the bishop.



Rank in terms of unsuitability, I would put the Muslim prayers at #2.



Surely you can't be serious...  This is happening?

The bishop looks fabulous, btw.
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« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2011, 03:18:27 PM »

My Coptic friends have told me that sometimes Muslims will come in secret to the monasteries in Egypt to deal with problems that would not be acceptable to address openly in their own Islamic communities (exorcism and whatnot). This jibes with what I have read, too (e.g., "Journey back to Eden" by Fr. Mark Gruber OSB, which also mentions house blessing/cleansing performed for a Muslim family after the father died), though I have to be honest and say that this idea makes me pretty uncomfortable (not because I don't want to help Muslims be free of the devil, but because inviting Islam into our holy places invites that same demonic force). So the idea of Muslims worshiping in a church...I don't know about the canons, but I do know it is not acceptable to me or any of the Orthodox people I have known (including several priests). Salpy is right that there are many situations in which there is no choice, but when there is a choice I hope it is isn't controversial to say that it should be a clear and consistent no. Let the worshipers of the false "god" of the false prophet Muhammad worship their blasphemy in their own places, as they have long forced us to worship the true God wherever we can find out of their sight. Christians of any kind have no stake in the continuation of Islam in any way, shape, or form. May Islam (not Muslims) die a terrible, terrible death befitting its terrible, terrible life.

Would that all Christians could be as strong as the Axumites who tore down the attempts at a mosque in their holy city, and responded to the interference of Islamic leaders in the matter by saying "sure, you can have a mosque in this city when we can have a church in Mecca." That got the point across!
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« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2011, 06:05:36 PM »

Also, the Muslims do respect the Mother of God and sometimes venerate her.

Something interesting to go with this. I once heard about a church somewhere in Syria where Sufi Muslims come on the feast of the Dormition and light candles before her icon. Just as many of them show up as Christians do.

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« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2011, 11:47:09 AM »

I think they just refer to her as the Virgin Mary or the Mother of Jesus.  They don't believe that she is Mother of God.  Many Muslims do venerate her, though.  As Isa mentioned, Muslims will visit Christian shrines set up for her. 

Yes they see Jesus as a prophet rather than God, so hence Mary would not be the "Mother of God".
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« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2011, 11:59:46 AM »

How do you think Christ would handle the situation?  If he were walking the earth day and a Muslim asked him if they could use his Church building for worship since they had no where else, what would he say?

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« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2011, 02:20:14 PM »

How do you think Christ would handle the situation?  If he were walking the earth day and a Muslim asked him if they could use his Church building for worship since they had no where else, what would he say?


Since the Church is the Body of Christ, I would think the Muslims would want to simply be in Christ's presence, rather than 'worship' in a building.
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« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2011, 07:32:01 PM »

I was going to say "do the Muslims venerate her as Christotokos?" when I realized that would be recognizing Christ as the messiah. "Isousotokos", perhaps?   Tongue
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« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2011, 07:59:10 PM »

I was going to say "do the Muslims venerate her as Christotokos?" when I realized that would be recognizing Christ as the messiah. "Isousotokos", perhaps?   Tongue

The Koran calls Jesus Al-Masih, the Christ. Muhammad just didn't understand what that meant.
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« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2011, 08:04:51 PM »

How do you think Christ would handle the situation?  If he were walking the earth day and a Muslim asked him if they could use his Church building for worship since they had no where else, what would he say?


Christ told the Samaritan woman that the Father desires worship in spirit and truth more than worship in a particular holy spot, so I can't really see Him approving Islamic worship since it lacks both. Especially not in a holy place.
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« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2011, 08:09:38 PM »

I was going to say "do the Muslims venerate her as Christotokos?" when I realized that would be recognizing Christ as the messiah. "Isousotokos", perhaps?   Tongue

The Koran calls Jesus Al-Masih, the Christ. Muhammad just didn't understand what that meant.
Interesting... very interesting. Thank you.  Smiley
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« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2011, 08:21:23 PM »

I was going to say "do the Muslims venerate her as Christotokos?" when I realized that would be recognizing Christ as the messiah. "Isousotokos", perhaps?   Tongue

The Koran calls Jesus Al-Masih, the Christ. Muhammad just didn't understand what that meant.

They do not understand what that means, that's for sure. I once asked a Muslim what Islam meant by "al-Masih" (a title we also call Him in Arabic, after all), and he said that it apparently comes from a root meaning "rub, wipe" (which is true, insofar as m-s-H does cover that concept), referring to the miracle of healing the blind man by rubbing mud on his eyes. I dunno...I found that to be really shallow, but that's Islam for ya.
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« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2011, 08:31:00 PM »

Would it matter? It ain't like Christ is a unique title for Jesus Christ. Even pagans were God's anointed.
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« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2011, 08:48:45 PM »

I was going to say "do the Muslims venerate her as Christotokos?" when I realized that would be recognizing Christ as the messiah. "Isousotokos", perhaps?   Tongue

The Koran calls Jesus Al-Masih, the Christ. Muhammad just didn't understand what that meant.

I think he did. That is, in the way Rabbinical Jews do. Not as a divine being.
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« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2011, 08:52:58 PM »

I don't know the correct answer, but isn't this a way of sharing the Christian faith with Muslims? Not actively proseltysing, but showing love and concern for them - giving them shelter for their needs?

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« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2011, 08:54:44 PM »

I was going to say "do the Muslims venerate her as Christotokos?" when I realized that would be recognizing Christ as the messiah. "Isousotokos", perhaps?   Tongue

The Koran calls Jesus Al-Masih, the Christ. Muhammad just didn't understand what that meant.

I think he did. That is, in the way Rabbinical Jews do. Not as a divine being.

Except Rabbinical Jews don't see Him as a Christ. That is why the Muslims are actually closer to us than nearly any stripe of Jews. We actually have more in common theologically.

Virgin Birth.
Perpetual Virginity.
Major Prophet.
Virgin Mary worthy of veneration.
Jesus Christ will come to judge the living and the dead at the end of this age.
No ridiculous slander about the Theotokos or Christ in their writings.

All of these are point of agreement we can enter into with our heterodox Muslims, but not so with Rabbinical Jews.
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« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2011, 08:55:15 PM »

I was going to say "do the Muslims venerate her as Christotokos?" when I realized that would be recognizing Christ as the messiah. "Isousotokos", perhaps?   Tongue
The Koran calls Jesus Al-Masih, the Christ. Muhammad just didn't understand what that meant.
I think he did. That is, in the way Rabbinical Jews do. Not as a divine being.

Biblically speaking, the word "Christ" has nothing to do with divinity. It doesn't mean being a prophet either. I don't mean this as a denial of Christ's divinity, only that the word is used in the OT to refer to the high priest and the king.
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« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2011, 08:55:34 PM »

I don't know the correct answer, but isn't this a way of sharing the Christian faith with Muslims? Not actively proseltysing, but showing love and concern for them - giving them shelter for their needs?



I highly recommend the film Of Gods and Men.
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« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2011, 08:57:41 PM »

I was going to say "do the Muslims venerate her as Christotokos?" when I realized that would be recognizing Christ as the messiah. "Isousotokos", perhaps?   Tongue

The Koran calls Jesus Al-Masih, the Christ. Muhammad just didn't understand what that meant.

I think he did. That is, in the way Rabbinical Jews do. Not as a divine being.

Not even in that way. The Koran reduces the "Christ" to the second best prophet. Rabbinical Jews at least see the Christ as a savior and king.
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« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2011, 08:59:18 PM »

I was going to say "do the Muslims venerate her as Christotokos?" when I realized that would be recognizing Christ as the messiah. "Isousotokos", perhaps?   Tongue

The Koran calls Jesus Al-Masih, the Christ. Muhammad just didn't understand what that meant.

I think he did. That is, in the way Rabbinical Jews do. Not as a divine being.

Except Rabbinical Jews don't see Him as a Christ. That is why the Muslims are actually closer to us than nearly any stripe of Jews. We actually have more in common theologically.

Virgin Birth.
Perpetual Virginity.
Major Prophet.
Virgin Mary worthy of veneration.
Jesus Christ will come to judge the living and the dead at the end of this age.
No ridiculous slander about the Theotokos or Christ in their writings.

All of these are point of agreement we can enter into with our heterodox Muslims, but not so with Rabbinical Jews.


Yes, but Muhammad understood Messiah as just a man anointed by God (as the word means) just as the Jews do.

Quote
Not even in that way. The Koran reduces the "Christ" to the second best prophet. Rabbinical Jews at least see the Christ as a savior and king.

Edit: Yes, William you are right about that
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« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2011, 09:00:53 PM »

I was going to say "do the Muslims venerate her as Christotokos?" when I realized that would be recognizing Christ as the messiah. "Isousotokos", perhaps?   Tongue

The Koran calls Jesus Al-Masih, the Christ. Muhammad just didn't understand what that meant.

I think he did. That is, in the way Rabbinical Jews do. Not as a divine being.

Not even in that way. The Koran reduces the "Christ" to the second best prophet. Rabbinical Jews at least see the Christ as a savior and king.

Which Christ?
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« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2011, 09:05:08 PM »

I was going to say "do the Muslims venerate her as Christotokos?" when I realized that would be recognizing Christ as the messiah. "Isousotokos", perhaps?   Tongue

The Koran calls Jesus Al-Masih, the Christ. Muhammad just didn't understand what that meant.

I think he did. That is, in the way Rabbinical Jews do. Not as a divine being.

Not even in that way. The Koran reduces the "Christ" to the second best prophet. Rabbinical Jews at least see the Christ as a savior and king.

Which Christ?

The one mentioned in the twelfth of Maimonides' Jewish principles of faith.
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« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2011, 09:11:13 PM »

I don't know the correct answer, but isn't this a way of sharing the Christian faith with Muslims? Not actively proseltysing, but showing love and concern for them - giving them shelter for their needs?



I highly recommend the film Of Gods and Men.

Am I wayward?  laugh Some hint as to how this film would help, please. Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2011, 09:23:58 PM »

I don't know the correct answer, but isn't this a way of sharing the Christian faith with Muslims? Not actively proseltysing, but showing love and concern for them - giving them shelter for their needs?



I highly recommend the film Of Gods and Men.


Am I wayward?  laugh Some hint as to how this film would help, please. Smiley

No!

It is a lovely film about the struggle of Catholic monks who have lived within a Muslim community attending to their health and well-being in a state of mutual respect who must come to decision to leave the community once "radicals" begin to encroach with violence.

Based on a "true" story.

Lovely. A wonderful French actor just speaks volumes with so few words.

It is a nice and non-sentimental story of the difficulties and joys of Christians and Muslims living side by side.

A beautiful work.

That is all. It is just tangentially hit here, but I think that which approaches art says much more than polemics can.

See the film and tell me what you think. I am easily drawn in by sentimentality.  
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« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2011, 09:32:12 PM »

I don't know the correct answer, but isn't this a way of sharing the Christian faith with Muslims? Not actively proseltysing, but showing love and concern for them - giving them shelter for their needs?



I highly recommend the film Of Gods and Men.


Am I wayward?  laugh Some hint as to how this film would help, please. Smiley

No!

It is a lovely film about the struggle of Catholic monks who have lived within a Muslim community attending to their health and well-being in a state of mutual respect who must come to decision to leave the community once "radicals" begin to encroach with violence.

Based on a "true" story.

Lovely. A wonderful French actor just speaks volumes with so few words.

It is a nice and non-sentimental story of the difficulties and joys of Christians and Muslims living side by side.

A beautiful work.

That is all. It is just tangentially hit here, but I think that which approaches art says much more than polemics can.

See the film and tell me what you think. I am easily drawn in by sentimentality.  

Ok, thanks. Smiley

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« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2011, 09:46:25 PM »

Perpetual Virginity.

Actually Muslims don't, or at least officially shouldn't believe in St. Mary's Perpetual Virginity. The Suras teach that she is one of the brides of Mohammad in paradise, providing him with all the pleasures of marriage. I am seriously not a fan of Islam.

I highly recommend the film Of Gods and Men.

I enjoyed it.
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« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2011, 10:42:23 PM »

Perpetual Virginity.

Actually Muslims don't, or at least officially shouldn't believe in St. Mary's Perpetual Virginity. The Suras teach that she is one of the brides of Mohammad in paradise, providing him with all the pleasures of marriage. I am seriously not a fan of Islam.

I highly recommend the film Of Gods and Men.

I enjoyed it.

I suppose if any of us were seriously fans of Islam, we would be Muslim.  laugh
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« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2011, 11:08:26 PM »

Orthonorm, I do not understand your post about the supposed theological similarities we have with Islam. Yes, in Islam 'Isa (not the true Christ) will return to judge mankind...according to the law of Islam, which is what he will profess (having always been a Muslim, and a "prophet" of subordinate status to Muhammad at that). Accordingly, he will break the crosses and condemn us for having made a false God out of him. That's right, the "Jesus" figure of Islam: Damning Christians to hell for not following the religion of Muhammad.

And I would call Islam's ahistorical and insulting narrative wherein all past prophets are Muslim, Christ is not God because God does not beget (after all, He has "no consort"!), and the holy virgin St. Mary is a wife of Muhammad in Islam's debased carnal "heaven" to be the height of slander against the Theotokos, Christ, and literally everything about the holy Christian faith. They should like us to accept them because they claim "Abrahamic" roots and have mutilated our scriptures and various apocryphal writings in producing their God-damned book so as to produce some assumed similarities between us and them (a useful tool for converting those who saw/see Islam as a simplified Christianity). John of Damascus, the monk at Bet Hale and the other early Syrian Christians, and virtually everyone else in the history of our religion has known better. Islam is an abomination.


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« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2011, 11:28:32 PM »

Isn't the article simply about some kind Christian people giving a helping hand to other people in need? Isn't that what Christians are supposed to do? They were asked if they would share their roof with Muslims and they said yes. Good on them, IMO. Makes a nice change from the depressing "they're out to get us" stuff. I'm not getting why this thread has become so involved with theology that we all know isn't Christian. 
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« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2011, 01:47:27 AM »

Orthonorm, I do not understand your post about the supposed theological similarities we have with Islam. Yes, in Islam 'Isa (not the true Christ) will return to judge mankind...according to the law of Islam, which is what he will profess (having always been a Muslim, and a "prophet" of subordinate status to Muhammad at that). Accordingly, he will break the crosses and condemn us for having made a false God out of him. That's right, the "Jesus" figure of Islam: Damning Christians to hell for not following the religion of Muhammad.

And I would call Islam's ahistorical and insulting narrative wherein all past prophets are Muslim, Christ is not God because God does not beget (after all, He has "no consort"!), and the holy virgin St. Mary is a wife of Muhammad in Islam's debased carnal "heaven" to be the height of slander against the Theotokos, Christ, and literally everything about the holy Christian faith. They should like us to accept them because they claim "Abrahamic" roots and have mutilated our scriptures and various apocryphal writings in producing their God-damned book so as to produce some assumed similarities between us and them (a useful tool for converting those who saw/see Islam as a simplified Christianity). John of Damascus, the monk at Bet Hale and the other early Syrian Christians, and virtually everyone else in the history of our religion has known better. Islam is an abomination.





And yet, closer to us than the Jews. That's what I am saying. As a Christian heresy, they still have more in common with us than those who . . .

Oh forget it. You obviously got . . . oh well we ain't private yet.
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« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2011, 03:06:32 AM »


The Koran calls Jesus Al-Masih, the Christ. Muhammad just didn't understand what that meant.

Yes. This is why in the early period of the Qur'an (prior to Muhammad's migration) Jesus is never designated as the Christ (al-Masih). We see this title attached to Jesus' name in the Surahs (chapter) of the late period, yet with no explanation of its meaning. It seems that Muhammad heard this title from Christians and considered it an alternate name or surname.
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« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2011, 03:43:50 AM »


Except Rabbinical Jews don't see Him as a Christ. That is why the Muslims are actually closer to us than nearly any stripe of Jews.


Sorry, but this is shallow reasoning. The Qur'an attaches the title "the Christ" to Jesus' name, but does not state what it means. More, the Qur'an says that "Jesus is nothing more than a prophet" in Surah 5.

We actually have more in common theologically.

You are kidding, right?  Huh

Virgin Birth.

Muslim faith in the virgin birth does not have the same theological reasons and implications as Christian faith.

Which is worse? Denial or distortion?

Perpetual Virginity.

Muhammad got this teaching from Christian tradition.

Major Prophet.

Islam does not teach that there are major and minor prophets. It only says that Jesus was a prophet that was given a divine revelation and sent to the Children of Israel. Still, in Surah 5 it is emphasized that Jesus was nothing more than a prophet.

Virgin Mary worthy of veneration.

As the Muslim mother of Jesus the Muslim prophet and like many other Muslim women of the past.

Jesus Christ will come to judge the living and the dead at the end of this age.

This teaching does not exist in the Qur'an, but only in Islamic tradition. According to the Hadith, Jesus wil come not to judge the living and the dead, but to condemn, fight, and convert Jews and Christians to Islam. He will destroy the cross, kill the swine, and tear down synagogues and churches.

No ridiculous slander about the Theotokos or Christ in their writings.

Considering Virgin Mary one of Muhammad's brides in heaven...
Allah interrogating Jesus on the Day of Judgment and asking Him if He taught Christians to worship Him and His mother as two gods...
Jesus depicted as a Muslim messenger prophesying Muhammad's advent...

These are not enough?  Roll Eyes

All of these are point of agreement we can enter into with our heterodox Muslims, but not so with Rabbinical Jews.

I cannot see any agreement.

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« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2011, 03:45:45 AM »


Actually Muslims don't, or at least officially shouldn't believe in St. Mary's Perpetual Virginity. The Suras teach that she is one of the brides of Mohammad in paradise, providing him with all the pleasures of marriage. I am seriously not a fan of Islam.


The stupid claim that Virgin Mary will be married to Muhammad in heaven is not stated in the Qur'an. It can be found in the Islamic tradition only.
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« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2011, 03:48:28 AM »

I cannot see any agreement.
Agreed.

Honestly just the rejection of a Trinitarian God puts them miles away from us just as much as the Rabbinical Jews are.
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« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2011, 03:49:22 AM »


And yet, closer to us than the Jews. That's what I am saying. As a Christian heresy, they still have more in common with us than those who . . .


Wrong premise and faulty conclusion. Islam is not a Christian heresy. It is of pagan origin. Further, Muhammad plagiarized more from the Talmud than from the apocryphal writings of Christianity. This is why Islam looks more similar to Rabbinical Judaism than Christianity.

The Lord declared: "The salvation is from the Jews". No use debating...
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« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2011, 04:02:02 AM »


And yet, closer to us than the Jews. That's what I am saying. As a Christian heresy, they still have more in common with us than those who . . .


Wrong premise and faulty conclusion. Islam is not a Christian heresy. It is of pagan origin. Further, Muhammad plagiarized more from the Talmud than from the apocryphal writings of Christianity. This is why Islam looks more similar to Rabbinical Judaism than Christianity.

The Lord declared: "The salvation is from the Jews". No use debating...

Great post. When I was looking at world religions seriously, I was shocked to find Islam having pagan origins.



It's funny how Islam and Mormonism both can be debunked so much easily, I'm surprised critics don't go after both on a more public level; it's way too easy I think.
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« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2011, 11:42:53 AM »

Wrong premise and faulty conclusion. Islam is not a Christian heresy.

The idea that Islam is a Christian heresy was popular in earlier eras. It seems less so now that more Christians have been exposed to Islamic theology. Interestingly, the Syriacs who first encountered Islam mostly wrote of it in apocalyptic terms rather than writing against it theologically, as John of Damascus and others did among the Byznatines. Syriac disputations of Islam came later in the eighth century with the famous disputation between the Muslim emir and the monk of Bet Hale (c.720s) and various works after that. It could be that this idea that Islam is a Christian heresy held sway for quite a while because it was written about in those terms (John Damascene does say Muhammad "devised his own heresy"), and the Muslims made a lot of effort to try to connect their religion to ours in those days, as part of converting us to it. Granted, they were never very good at that (see quote below), and still aren't, but it apparently worked/works. It is probably for this reason that when the Church of the East was losing so much of its flock in the Arabian peninsula (e.g., Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, etc. all used to have active churches), the Patriarch did not even blame the Muslims, but instead blamed the laxity of the priests and monks, and poor catechesis that plagued the church as a result. (see: Dr. Suha Rossam "Christianity in Iraq")

"Against those who while professing to accept the Old Testament, and acknowledging the coming of Christ, our Lord, are far removed from both of them, and they demand from us an apology for our faith, not from all of the scriptures, but from those which they acknowledge." (Theodore Bar Koni, c.792)
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« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2011, 11:46:19 AM »

I don't know the correct answer, but isn't this a way of sharing the Christian faith with Muslims? Not actively proseltysing, but showing love and concern for them - giving them shelter for their needs?



This is what I was leaning toward.  Jesus seemed to say and do a lot of things that were a little bit out of the ordinary.  I seem to think that if he were walking the earth today, and was faced with this situation, he would let them use the building. This would likely leave a lot of Christians shocked.  But he used to leave people shocked back in his day too...  

I could be wrong, but maybe this would be a way of showing love and acceptance to Muslims when most Christians avoid them like the plague.  Maybe some good could come from it.  Who knows....
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« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2011, 12:09:55 PM »

Ah, yes, but Jesus Christ also told his disciples to be "wise as serpents", because He sent them out as sheep into a world full of wolves. To treat all Muslims as though they are wolves might not be right, but we should never forget that their religion, at least, does seek to devour us by various means. And as it is not from God, we can never be too steadfast in opposing it, even as we may help Muslims on a case-by-case basis (I would add "so long as it does not help their religion", but...well, you've seen the story in the OP).

As to helping their religion, I don't think there should or can be any compromise. It is the spirit of the anti-Christ that denies the divinity of Jesus. You would suggest that we help those laboring under such possession to continue to do so and continue to grow, rather than truly follow the Savior's example and tell them (for instance) to be baptized of water and spirit, in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit? I should hope not. That is not being Christian at all.

The Muslims are not helpless doves who need us to nurse them while they await the building of new nests (from which they will preach damnation and violence against us). Let their fellow heretics take them in so that they can pray to their false god in peace in their own places, lest the whole world end up being forced to nurture heresy (or what? Be thought of as "mean"? Well I can't think of anything worse than that!), like the Christians in the Middle East who cannot so much as politely disagree with Islam or Muslims without bringing calamity upon their entire church (see: basically anything that happens in Egypt). Humanitarian needs are one thing. Spiritual delusions are another.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 12:10:45 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2011, 12:22:37 PM »

I don't know the correct answer, but isn't this a way of sharing the Christian faith with Muslims? Not actively proseltysing, but showing love and concern for them - giving them shelter for their needs?



This is what I was leaning toward.  Jesus seemed to say and do a lot of things that were a little bit out of the ordinary.  I seem to think that if he were walking the earth today, and was faced with this situation, he would let them use the building. This would likely leave a lot of Christians shocked.  But he used to leave people shocked back in his day too...  

I could be wrong, but maybe this would be a way of showing love and acceptance to Muslims when most Christians avoid them like the plague.  Maybe some good could come from it.  Who knows....

I could also see Him calling them out for their false beliefs and rejecting of Him.
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« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2011, 12:59:20 PM »

I don't know the correct answer, but isn't this a way of sharing the Christian faith with Muslims? Not actively proseltysing, but showing love and concern for them - giving them shelter for their needs?



This is what I was leaning toward.  Jesus seemed to say and do a lot of things that were a little bit out of the ordinary.  I seem to think that if he were walking the earth today, and was faced with this situation, he would let them use the building. This would likely leave a lot of Christians shocked.  But he used to leave people shocked back in his day too...  

I could be wrong, but maybe this would be a way of showing love and acceptance to Muslims when most Christians avoid them like the plague.  Maybe some good could come from it.  Who knows....

I could also see Him calling them out for their false beliefs and rejecting of Him.

true. 

and i meant to add to my post that maybe using the building would be so much of an issue since the Church is more than just a building anyways.  that doesnt change your point, and you are probably right.  i just forgot to add that to my original post.
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« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2011, 01:17:52 PM »

I cannot see any agreement.
Agreed.

Honestly just the rejection of a Trinitarian God puts them miles away from us just as much as the Rabbinical Jews are.

When the Muslims start writing about Jesus boiling for eternity in excrement, get back to me. And everyone know I ain't one of those folks.
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« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2011, 03:20:29 PM »

Why judge the Muslims favorably by the yardstick of the Jews? Can one who does the work of anti-Christ be "better" than another who does that same work by different means or using different words?
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« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2011, 05:16:03 PM »

I think that I'm going to have to go with playing the "love your enemy and do good to those who would like to rip out your throat" card, here (not saying that I feel that about Muslims, but that is a yardstick by which to judge all such situations) and say that letting them using the building was a good deed to someone different, no matter what their beliefs.  angel Wink And I hope something good has come of it.
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