Author Topic: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue  (Read 28577 times)

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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« on: December 14, 2010, 07:14:51 PM »
Serbian Patriach Ireneos took part at Chanukah celebrations at the Synagogue in Belgrade, and lit a candle on the menorah along with the Grand Mufti and a Roman Catholic Bishop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dtvLKZK7aU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for Serbia as a bastion of traditional Orthodoxy...

I wonder what stashko will think of this? Serbian Orthodox praying with Jews AND CATHOLICS!!! Apocalypse beast antichrist 666 is here, and the Serbs have the barcodes to show it on their foreheads.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 07:15:17 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2010, 07:39:08 PM »
I don't see why stashko would have any problem with Orthodox hanging out with Jews and, God forbid, Catholics. ;D
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2010, 07:46:27 PM »
Serbian Patriach Ireneos took part at Chanukah celebrations at the Synagogue in Belgrade, and lit a candle on the menorah along with the Grand Mufti and a Roman Catholic Bishop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dtvLKZK7aU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for Serbia as a bastion of traditional Orthodoxy...

I wonder what stashko will think of this? Serbian Orthodox praying with Jews AND CATHOLICS!!! Apocalypse beast antichrist 666 is here, and the Serbs have the barcodes to show it on their foreheads.
Are you serious?

"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline stashko

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2010, 07:59:43 PM »
I'm not totally Against Dialogue, with other faiths , concelebrating with them is another story though.... ;D  So your saying serbs have the satanic barcodes on there foreheads .....It was mentioned on other treads that the New Serbian Patriarch is a big ecumenist....


Serbian Patriach Ireneos took part at Chanukah celebrations at the Synagogue in Belgrade, and lit a candle on the menorah along with the Grand Mufti and a Roman Catholic Bishop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dtvLKZK7aU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for Serbia as a bastion of traditional Orthodoxy...

I wonder what stashko will think of this? Serbian Orthodox praying with Jews AND CATHOLICS!!! Apocalypse beast antichrist 666 is here, and the Serbs have the barcodes to show it on their foreheads.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 08:06:55 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2010, 08:12:22 PM »
Serbian Patriach Ireneos took part at Chanukah celebrations at the Synagogue in Belgrade, and lit a candle on the menorah along with the Grand Mufti and a Roman Catholic Bishop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dtvLKZK7aU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for Serbia as a bastion of traditional Orthodoxy...

I'm feeling close to barfing.  :-X

Offline Papist

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2010, 08:14:47 PM »
Serbian Patriach Ireneos took part at Chanukah celebrations at the Synagogue in Belgrade, and lit a candle on the menorah along with the Grand Mufti and a Roman Catholic Bishop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dtvLKZK7aU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for Serbia as a bastion of traditional Orthodoxy...

I'm feeling close to barfing.  :-X
Yeah, how dare some one celebrate something from the Old Testament.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2010, 08:19:05 PM »
Serbian Patriach Ireneos took part at Chanukah celebrations at the Synagogue in Belgrade, and lit a candle on the menorah along with the Grand Mufti and a Roman Catholic Bishop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dtvLKZK7aU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for Serbia as a bastion of traditional Orthodoxy...

I'm feeling close to barfing.  :-X
Yeah, how dare some one celebrate something from the Old Testament.

For one thing, where is Hannukah in the Old Testament?

But anyway, it being a pre-Christian celebration is not the issue. The Patriarch praying with heathens is the issue.

Online rakovsky

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2010, 08:20:03 PM »
Serbian Patriach Ireneos took part at Chanukah celebrations at the Synagogue in Belgrade, and lit a candle on the menorah along with the Grand Mufti and a Roman Catholic Bishop.

So much for Serbia as a bastion of traditional Orthodoxy...

Concelebration of Hanukah may be like a positive step depending on the view of the Church. Additionally, the repercussions are mindblowing.

A) Is Hanukah an ancient Judaic holiday like Passover that the early 1st-2nd century Church would have celebrated?

B) "along with the Grand Mufti" - at least now there is an easy showing that Islam can be fully tolerant and peaceful, and an easy reply to any claim that Islam is somehow by nature a threat.

C) What is the background to the concelebration?

Regards.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 08:24:18 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2010, 08:22:55 PM »
Serbian Patriach Ireneos took part at Chanukah celebrations at the Synagogue in Belgrade, and lit a candle on the menorah along with the Grand Mufti and a Roman Catholic Bishop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dtvLKZK7aU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for Serbia as a bastion of traditional Orthodoxy...

I'm feeling close to barfing.  :-X
Yeah, how dare some one celebrate something from the Old Testament.

For one thing, where is Hannukah in the Old Testament?

But anyway, it being a pre-Christian celebration is not the issue. The Patriarch praying with heathens is the issue.
Define "praying with".
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2010, 08:23:19 PM »
Serbian Patriach Ireneos took part at Chanukah celebrations at the Synagogue in Belgrade, and lit a candle on the menorah along with the Grand Mufti and a Roman Catholic Bishop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dtvLKZK7aU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for Serbia as a bastion of traditional Orthodoxy...

I'm feeling close to barfing.  :-X
Yeah, how dare some one celebrate something from the Old Testament.

For one thing, where is Hannukah in the Old Testament?

Maccabees
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 08:24:24 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Online rakovsky

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2010, 08:29:35 PM »
Yeah, how dare some one celebrate something from the Old Testament.

For one thing, where is Hannukah in the Old Testament?

Maccabees


I think Maccabees is in the Orthodox Church's semi-canonical (or "deuterocanonical") Old Testament Apocrypha. It isn't in the Canonical Old Testament in Judaism, referred to as the Tanakh.

But still, Maccabees may describe Judaic customs in pre-Christian times.

Regards.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 08:31:08 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2010, 08:40:27 PM »
Serbian Patriach Ireneos took part at Chanukah celebrations at the Synagogue in Belgrade, and lit a candle on the menorah along with the Grand Mufti and a Roman Catholic Bishop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dtvLKZK7aU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for Serbia as a bastion of traditional Orthodoxy...

I'm feeling close to barfing.  :-X
Yeah, how dare some one celebrate something from the Old Testament.

For one thing, where is Hannukah in the Old Testament?

But anyway, it being a pre-Christian celebration is not the issue. The Patriarch praying with heathens is the issue.
Define "praying with".

The Patriarch:

1. Was in a synagogue
2. During a prayer service of the "Jewish" apostates
3. He lit a candle at the menorah, that sort of act being understood as an act of prayer in Orthodox spirituality

The only piece missing is actually seeing his lips moving along with the heathens.

And I don't think it would get him off the hook even if he did not.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2010, 08:40:58 PM »
Serbian Patriach Ireneos took part at Chanukah celebrations at the Synagogue in Belgrade, and lit a candle on the menorah along with the Grand Mufti and a Roman Catholic Bishop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dtvLKZK7aU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for Serbia as a bastion of traditional Orthodoxy...

I'm feeling close to barfing.  :-X
Yeah, how dare some one celebrate something from the Old Testament.

For one thing, where is Hannukah in the Old Testament?

Maccabees


Which book and where in it?

Offline stashko

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2010, 08:42:09 PM »
There was a Serbian Bishop Irinej in cahoots with the Serbian Bishop Dionisija that split the Serbian Church, From the Mother Church In Belgrad by creating the free Serbian Orthodox Church ....

I'm Just wondering if history will repeat itself, and this Newly Elected Serbian Patriarch Irinej will cause a split in the near future, Pro ecumenism and Anti Ecumenism ........ ;) time will tell i guess......Plus they should never of elected a new Patriarch with the name Irinej or Dionisija,  those name created quite a few problems for unity of the church....
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 09:10:43 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2010, 08:43:04 PM »
Serbian Patriach Ireneos took part at Chanukah celebrations at the Synagogue in Belgrade, and lit a candle on the menorah along with the Grand Mufti and a Roman Catholic Bishop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dtvLKZK7aU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for Serbia as a bastion of traditional Orthodoxy...

I'm feeling close to barfing.  :-X
Yeah, how dare some one celebrate something from the Old Testament.

For one thing, where is Hannukah in the Old Testament?

Maccabees


Which book and where in it?

It's been a long time since I read Maccabees, but I always thought Hannukah was based on what the Maccabees did.
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2010, 08:45:48 PM »
Yeah, how dare some one celebrate something from the Old Testament.

For one thing, where is Hannukah in the Old Testament?

Maccabees


I think Maccabees is in the Orthodox Church's semi-canonical (or "deuterocanonical") Old Testament Apocrypha. It isn't in the Canonical Old Testament in Judaism, referred to as the Tanakh.

But still, Maccabees may describe Judaic customs in pre-Christian times.

Regards.

The Slavonic rite might call it Deuterocanical, but I thought the Byzantine rite didn't make a distinction between the books.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 08:47:04 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2010, 08:52:07 PM »
Are you serious?

About barcode antichrist 666?

Nope.

Offline stashko

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2010, 08:56:30 PM »
Are you serious?

About barcode antichrist 666?

Nope.
Clarification Please...
Are you saying the Patriarch of Serbija and all the ecumenist clergy and Faithful with him  ,have this barcode 666 on their forehead...
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 09:05:37 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Papist

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2010, 08:57:16 PM »
Are you serious?

About barcode antichrist 666?

Nope.
Clarification Please...
Are you saying the Patriarch of Serbija and all the ecumenist clergy have this barcode on their forehead...
Of course they do. They got the idea from Roman Catholics.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Rufus

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2010, 08:58:28 PM »
Yeah, how dare some one celebrate something from the Old Testament.

For one thing, where is Hannukah in the Old Testament?

Maccabees


I think Maccabees is in the Orthodox Church's semi-canonical (or "deuterocanonical") Old Testament Apocrypha. It isn't in the Canonical Old Testament in Judaism, referred to as the Tanakh.

But still, Maccabees may describe Judaic customs in pre-Christian times.

Regards.

The Slavonic rite might call it Deuterocanical, but I thought the Byzantine rite didn't make a distinction between the books.

I was unaware that any Orthodox at all considered them "Deuterocanonical." I thought they were just plain canonical.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2010, 09:01:08 PM »
Serbian Patriach Ireneos took part at Chanukah celebrations at the Synagogue in Belgrade, and lit a candle on the menorah along with the Grand Mufti and a Roman Catholic Bishop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dtvLKZK7aU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for Serbia as a bastion of traditional Orthodoxy...

I'm feeling close to barfing.  :-X
Yeah, how dare some one celebrate something from the Old Testament.

For one thing, where is Hannukah in the Old Testament?

Maccabees


Which book and where in it?

It's been a long time since I read Maccabees, but I always thought Hannukah was based on what the Maccabees did.

Well, in a broad sense, yes. But specifically Hannukah is about the story of the restoration of the Temple when they only had enough oil to light the Menorah for one day, which was not going to be enough time for them to make more oil. However, miraculously, the flame stayed lit for eight days, and they managed to make more oil in time for the flame to not go out.

I haven't heard of that story specifically and explicitly being in the Bible, even if in the apocrypha.

Offline Rufus

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2010, 09:08:44 PM »
Serbian Patriach Ireneos took part at Chanukah celebrations at the Synagogue in Belgrade, and lit a candle on the menorah along with the Grand Mufti and a Roman Catholic Bishop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dtvLKZK7aU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for Serbia as a bastion of traditional Orthodoxy...

I'm feeling close to barfing.  :-X
Yeah, how dare some one celebrate something from the Old Testament.

For one thing, where is Hannukah in the Old Testament?

Maccabees


Which book and where in it?

It's been a long time since I read Maccabees, but I always thought Hannukah was based on what the Maccabees did.

Well, in a broad sense, yes. But specifically Hannukah is about the story of the restoration of the Temple when they only had enough oil to light the Menorah for one day, which was not going to be enough time for them to make more oil. However, miraculously, the flame stayed lit for eight days, and they managed to make more oil in time for the flame to not go out.

I haven't heard of that story specifically and explicitly being in the Bible, even if in the apocrypha.

Our Lord observed it.

John 10:22-24 At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

(Which proves He didn't believe in Sola Scriptura!!)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 09:09:26 PM by Rufus »

Offline Ebenezer

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2010, 09:10:20 PM »
So, because this high up guy hungout with some Jews and lit a candle, suddenly him and all those who follow him are antichrists? I don't get what the big deal is, seems slightly anti-Semitic to me. Did he say for his parishioners to celebrate chanukkah as frum Jews do, each and every time the 25th of Kislev comes round? Did he say anything contrary to Christian Orthodoxy? Did he do anything wrong here? Really? To me, it seems like him and this Mufti, were there as a sign that the Christian and Muslim community supports the existance of Serbian Jews and that they should be free to do so without restriction just like Orthodox Christian should be free to celebrate the Christian holidays and just like Muslims should be free to celebrate their holidays as well.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 09:12:35 PM by Ebenezer »
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2010, 09:12:47 PM »
Our Lord observed it.

John 10:22-24 At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

OK, but that's not the OT, which is what we were originally discussing.

(Which proves He didn't believe in Sola Scriptura!!)

Hehe.  :)

The Second Temple itself proves that God doesn't uphold Sola Scriptura, because if He did He would not have endorsed a Temple which did not fulfill the Law.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2010, 09:21:59 PM »
So, because this high up guy hungout with some Jews

He didn't simply hang out with them. There's nothing wrong with hanging out with those apostates who like to be called Jews but are not really in the Biblical sense. Rather, what is wrong is that not only did he enter a synagogue, but he did so during one of their heathen services, and...

and lit a candle,

as I specified before, in Orthodox liturgiology/spirituality, lighting a candle is understood as an act of prayer, and therefore he at least prayed with them in this implicit manner, if not, most likely, he prayed with them explicitly. Praying with heretics in their communal services is strictly forbidden. These are not even heretics, they are heathens.

suddenly him and all those who follow him are antichrists?

No. I wouldn't dare lay that guilt on all of those in his Patriarchate just because of him. But what he did most certainly was antichrist, yes.

I don't get what the big deal is, seems slightly anti-Semitic to me.

Well, I would be just as shocked (or maybe perhaps more so) if this sort of thing had happened in a Buddhist temple. Just because I am not exalting them to be just about equal to Christians as the modern world does does not mean I hate or fear them or have unreasonable bias against them.

Did he say anything contrary to Christian Orthodoxy? Did he do anything wrong here? Really?

Yes, like I said, this sort of inter-communal prayer is forbidden. It's bad enough to do it among schismatics or heretics, but here we see it done essentially with heathens.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2010, 09:27:28 PM »
The Feast of Hanukkah celebrates the successful end of the war of Judas
Macabbeus against the Seleucid Empire (read Macabbees) which held Israel in
bondage and which had forbidden all true worship.   Synagogue worship and
temple worship had ceased under Seleucid rule.

So this day is their Memorial Day to celebrate their victory over their
enemies.

All nations have these days.

In New Zealand we have ANZAC  Day.  In Great Britain they have V Day and
Remembrance Sunday,  France has Armistice Day  and I am sure Americans have
something similar.

In this country there is a ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier where
dignitaries (including religious figures) lay wreaths and light a candle.

In the case of the Jews the victory of Judas Macabbeus involves candles
since one of the first things he did after winning the war was to go into
the empty and unused temple and light a candle.  It was a highly symbolic
gesture of the return of freedom and true worship to Israel.  This Jewish
holyday lasts for 8 days and it begins exactly on the day when the war
ceased.

Hierom. Ambrose

Our Saviour is recorded as being at the Temple for this special Victory
Day. See John 10:22-23
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 09:31:35 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2010, 09:30:11 PM »
....as I specified before, in Orthodox liturgiology/spirituality, lighting a candle is understood as an act of prayer....
Lighting a candle is an act of prayer? Is this an Oriental Orthodox idea, or also Eastern Orthodox?
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2010, 09:36:35 PM »
....as I specified before, in Orthodox liturgiology/spirituality, lighting a candle is understood as an act of prayer....
Lighting a candle is an act of prayer? Is this an Oriental Orthodox idea, or also Eastern Orthodox?

I have heard it from 3 different churches I have been to a number of times, two of them being EO (GOAA and OCA) and the other being Armenian OO.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2010, 09:37:08 PM »
those apostates who like to be called Jews but are not really in the Biblical sense.

Funny you should say that, because in the Bible the unbelieving Israelites are called Jews on a regular basis. Same thing in the Fathers.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2010, 09:37:32 PM »
I don't get what the big deal is, seems slightly anti-Semitic to me.

...as a sign that the Christian and Muslim community supports the existance of Serbian Jews and that they should be free to do so without restriction just like Orthodox Christian should be free to celebrate the Christian holidays

Ebenezer,

Hello, friend.

There really isn't any anti-semitism inherent in criticism of the concelebration. It simply has been rare in recent centuries for Church leaders to celebrate in services led by nonChristians. Orthodox Christianity is about going back to the early Church and the True faith. Discussion, questioning, criticism are healthy parts of the Church so that we can discover the Truth.

Well, I guess I can wish you a Happy Feast of the Dedication now.


Still, I would like to know more about the Church's traditional view of the Feast of the Dedication.

My personal view is that the prayer in the nonChristian synagogue was ok. St Paul and the apostles preached in synagogues and prayed in the Temple, for which some of them were attacked by the nonChristians.

So I think that prayer in the synagogues is ok by Church leaders if the particular celebration was in fact a celebration that early Christians participated in, which apparently includes the Feast of the Dedication, from John's Gospel. (Although is it clear if Jesus was in fact celebrating in the Temple for the Feast?)

One reason for qualifying blanket approval is that some customs in Judaism developed after, and separate from Christianity.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 09:45:21 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2010, 09:43:58 PM »
Well, I can understand that perhaps according to orthodox Christian tradition he did something wrong however calling my people heathens and all this seems a tad unnecessary and to be quite frank, offensive. I am trying to be understanding of your traditions, as I am seeking to convert but to call people like my parents, grandparents and so forth heathens and all this is offensive. Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding you though.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2010, 09:45:33 PM »
Well, I can understand that perhaps according to orthodox Christian tradition he did something wrong however calling my people heathens and all this seems a tad unnecessary and to be quite frank, offensive. I am trying to be understanding of your traditions, as I am seeking to convert but to call people like my parents, grandparents and so forth heathens and all this is offensive. Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding you though.
There's only a few extremists around here that will call people heathens.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2010, 09:46:37 PM »
"Chanukkah is not a very important religious holiday. The holiday's religious significance is far less than that of Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Passover, and Shavu'ot. It is roughly equivalent to Purim in significance, and you won't find many non-Jews who have even heard of Purim! Chanukkah is not mentioned in Jewish scripture; the story is related in the book of Maccabees, which Jews do not accept as scripture."
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2010, 09:47:35 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedication

Wikipedia doesn't seem to match the Feast of the Dedication with Chanukkah, which is a separate entry.

Ebenezer:

Well, I can understand that perhaps according to orthodox Christian tradition he did something wrong however calling my people heathens and all this seems a tad unnecessary and to be quite frank, offensive. I am trying to be understanding of your traditions, as I am seeking to convert but to call people like my parents, grandparents and so forth heathens and all this is offensive. Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding you though.

Well, if it makes you feel better, my grandparents and so forth were heathens too.  :D

All the best, friend.


Jetavan,
The usual definition of 'heathen' is 'one who holds a religious belief which is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim; a pagan.'

So my ancestors were pagans after all.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 09:57:18 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2010, 09:52:20 PM »
Well, I can understand that perhaps according to orthodox Christian tradition he did something wrong however calling my people heathens and all this seems a tad unnecessary and to be quite frank, offensive. I am trying to be understanding of your traditions, as I am seeking to convert but to call people like my parents, grandparents and so forth heathens and all this is offensive. Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding you though.
There's only a few extremists around here that will call people heathens.
Very strange to hear Jews referred to as "heathens". The usual definition of 'heathen' is 'one who holds a religious belief which is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim; a pagan.'
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2010, 09:57:48 PM »
Well, I can understand that perhaps according to orthodox Christian tradition he did something wrong however calling my people heathens and all this seems a tad unnecessary and to be quite frank, offensive. I am trying to be understanding of your traditions, as I am seeking to convert but to call people like my parents, grandparents and so forth heathens and all this is offensive. Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding you though.
There's only a few extremists around here that will call people heathens.
Very strange to hear Jews referred to as "heathens". The usual definition of 'heathen' is 'one who holds a religious belief which is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim; a pagan.'

Indeed; in traditional English Bibles such as the King James, "heathen" is used to translate Goyim/Ammim/ta Ethni, i.e. non-Israelites.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2010, 10:17:37 PM »
....as I specified before, in Orthodox liturgiology/spirituality, lighting a candle is understood as an act of prayer....
Lighting a candle is an act of prayer? Is this an Oriental Orthodox idea, or also Eastern Orthodox?

In this instance, lighting a candle is an act of thanksgiving for the liberation of the People of God from enemy occupation - an occupation by enemies which had closed down temple worship and synagogue worship.

People overlook the fact that this was OUR temple and OUR worship - the true worship desired by God before the incarnation of His Son.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 10:19:33 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2010, 10:32:09 PM »
"Chanukkah is not a very important religious holiday. The holiday's religious significance is far less than that of Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Passover, and Shavu'ot. It is roughly equivalent to Purim in significance, and you won't find many non-Jews who have even heard of Purim! Chanukkah is not mentioned in Jewish scripture; the story is related in the book of Maccabees, which Jews do not accept as scripture."

Not now they don't. But in Christ's time they did. The fact that they celebrate Hanukkah when its scriptural warrant is only in Maccabbees shows that.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2010, 10:33:00 PM »
Clarification Please...
Are you saying the Patriarch of Serbija and all the ecumenist clergy and Faithful with him  ,have this barcode 666 on their forehead...

I would never be so bold as to seriously say such a thing. I was only baptized into the Serbian Church this last Dormition of the Mother of God, some several months ago. Who am I to judge our Patriarch for this small thing? If this is an error on his part then may God correct him, but may God have mercy on us all and guide us all! Sarcasm is often hard to detect over the internet. I was just predicting the response from certain people.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 10:34:36 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2010, 10:34:26 PM »
The first Hannukah took place ca. 164 BC.   Ironically the event is recorded in a book of the Bible retained by the Orthodox Church but deleted by the Masoretes and the present day rabbinic Jews

1 Maccabees 4:36-59
Then said Judas and his brothers, "Behold, our enemies are crushed; let us go up to cleanse the sanctuary and dedicate it."  So all the army assembled and they went up to Mount Zion.  And they saw the sanctuary desolate, the altar profaned, and the gates burned. In the courts they saw bushes sprung up as in a thicket, or as on one of the mountains. They saw also the chambers of the priests in ruins.  Then they rent their clothes, and mourned with great lamentation, and sprinkled themselves with ashes.  They fell face down on the ground, and sounded the signal on the trumpets, and cried out to Heaven.
 Then Judas detailed men to fight against those in the citadel until he had cleansed the sanctuary.  He chose blameless priests devoted to the law,  and they cleansed the sanctuary and removed the defiled stones to an unclean place.
 They deliberated what to do about the altar of burnt offering, which had been profaned.  And they thought it best to tear it down, lest it bring reproach upon them, for the Gentiles had defiled it. So they tore down the altar,  and stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until there should come a prophet to tell what to do with them.  Then they took unhewn stones, as the law directs, and built a new altar like the former one.
 They also rebuilt the sanctuary and the interior of the temple, and consecrated the courts.  They made new holy vessels, and brought the lampstand, the altar of incense, and the table into the temple.  Then they burned incense on the altar and lighted the lamps on the lampstand, and these gave light in the temple.
 They placed the bread on the table and hung up the curtains. Thus they finished all the work they had undertaken.  Early in the morning on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month, which is the month of Kislev, in the one hundred and forty-eighth year [Seleucid Era; 15 December 164],  they rose and offered sacrifice, as the law directs, on the new altar of burnt offering which they had built.  At the very season and on the very day that the Gentiles had profaned it, it was dedicated with songs and harps and lutes and cymbals.
 All the people fell on their faces and worshiped and blessed Heaven, who had prospered them.  So they celebrated the dedication of the altar for eight days, and offered burnt offerings with gladness; they offered a sacrifice of deliverance and praise.  They decorated the front of the temple with golden crowns and small shields; they restored the gates and the chambers for the priests, and furnished them with doors.  There was very great gladness among the people, and the reproach of the Gentiles was removed.
 Then Judas and his brothers and all the assembly of Israel determined that every year at that season the days of dedication of the altar should be observed with gladness and joy for eight days, beginning with the twenty-fifth day of the month of Kislev

Offline stashko

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2010, 10:36:50 PM »
Clarification Please...
Are you saying the Patriarch of Serbija and all the ecumenist clergy and Faithful with him  ,have this barcode 666 on their forehead...

I would never be so bold as to seriously say such a thing. I was only baptized into the Serbian Church this last Dormition of the Mother of God, some several months ago. Who am I to judge our Patriarch for this small thing? If this is an error on his part then may God correct him, but may God have mercy on us all and guide us all! Sarcasm is often hard to detect over the internet. I was just predicting the response from certain people.

Amen Amen....So How did i do, did i pass.... ;D
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 10:42:17 PM by stashko »
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2010, 10:39:06 PM »
The Patriarch:

1. Was in a synagogue
2. During a prayer service of the "Jewish" apostates
3. He lit a candle at the menorah, that sort of act being understood as an act of prayer in Orthodox spirituality

The only piece missing is actually seeing his lips moving along with the heathens.

And I don't think it would get him off the hook even if he did not.

Let's see - Jews are apostates - being those who have abandoned, renounced, or unaffiliated themselves from their faith? Wow, who knew that they left Christianity? And here I thought that they just didn't sign on.

I'm going to have to presume that the reference to heathens refers to Muslims, though - last I thought I knew - whatever else are their issues - they acknowledge the Bible, since we know that those apostate Jews and heretic (you forgot to factor them into the equation) Catholics do.

The things one learns from the keyboards of the truly enlightened; I'll pass these changes on to the editors at the OED, they'll be glad of the opportunity to update accordingly, so that the non-apostate, non-heathen, heretics of the world can get their terminology straight when slinging anathemae.

Many years,

Neil
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2010, 10:39:32 PM »
Quote
Canon LXX.

If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the list of clergy, keeps fast or festival with the Jews, or receives from them any of the gifts of their feasts, as unleavened bread, any such things, let him be deposed. If he be a layman, let him be excommunicated.

Canon LXXI.

If any Christian brings oil into a temple of the heathen or into a synagogue of the Jews at their feast, or lights lamps, let him be excommunicated.

Citation: http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html

Note also that the Orthodox Church commemorates the Maccabees on August 1.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 10:43:16 PM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2010, 10:43:21 PM »
Well, I can understand that perhaps according to orthodox Christian tradition he did something wrong however calling my people heathens and all this seems a tad unnecessary and to be quite frank, offensive. I am trying to be understanding of your traditions, as I am seeking to convert but to call people like my parents, grandparents and so forth heathens and all this is offensive. Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding you though.
I don't call my Hebrew ancestors heathens. I call them Our Lord's relatives.
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Offline stashko

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2010, 10:49:28 PM »

Fr. Bless ,
How can the Majoritiy of The Serbians Orthodox  Holy Synod just Ignore, the cannon, and not demand his retirement and replacement....The Majority of Serbs Must be ignorant of this cannon because threre's ,no public outcry.... ???



Canon LXX.

If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the list of clergy, keeps fast or festival with the Jews, or receives from them any of the gifts of their feasts, as unleavened bread, any such things, let him be deposed. If he be a layman, let him be excommunicated.

Canon LXXI.

If any Christian brings oil into a temple of the heathen or into a synagogue of the Jews at their feast, or lights lamps, let him be excommunicated.

Citation: http://www.voskrese.info/spl/aposcanon.html
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2010, 10:50:34 PM »
Clarification Please...
Are you saying the Patriarch of Serbija and all the ecumenist clergy and Faithful with him  ,have this barcode 666 on their forehead...

I would never be so bold as to seriously say such a thing. I was only baptized into the Serbian Church this last Dormition of the Mother of God, some several months ago. Who am I to judge our Patriarch for this small thing? If this is an error on his part then may God correct him, but may God have mercy on us all and guide us all! Sarcasm is often hard to detect over the internet. I was just predicting the response from certain people.

Amen Amen....So How did i do, did i pass.... ;D

Stanislav, my brother,

I am going to nominate your initial response as "The Most Unexpectedly Reasonable Post" of the month - maybe of the year, old friend.  :D

Many years,

Neil
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2010, 10:53:24 PM »
Serbian Patriach Ireneos took part at Chanukah celebrations at the Synagogue in Belgrade, and lit a candle on the menorah along with the Grand Mufti and a Roman Catholic Bishop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dtvLKZK7aU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for Serbia as a bastion of traditional Orthodoxy...

I wonder what stashko will think of this? Serbian Orthodox praying with Jews AND CATHOLICS!!! Apocalypse beast antichrist 666 is here, and the Serbs have the barcodes to show it on their foreheads.

Probably another split coming real soon.  I know that the current Patriarch is viewed with suspicion in my neck of the woods.  It would seem that by the canons, the Patriarch has ceased being an Orthodox Bishop by his actions.  Sigh.  It looks like I got out of one schism just to enter into another.  
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2010, 10:58:03 PM »
Dear Stashko,

God bless you!

I will let the canons speak for themselves, and not make a comment now.  I don't know what is in the Patriarch's mind or his heart. I am not permitted to judge that aspect of him.  But as an Orthodox Christian, I am entitled to--indeed called to--point out that this public action is against the canons of the Church. I am saddened by this. Let us pray for him.

In Christ,

Fr. Anastasios
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 10:58:49 PM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2010, 11:14:42 PM »
I highly doubt the authenticity of the Canons of the Apostles. Many Christian scholars do, and their criticisms persuade me. Further, we have it set out with approval in the New Testament, which we consider to be inspired, that the Apostles and early Church prayed and preached in the synagogues. If Chanukah is in fact the Feast of the Dedication, and if Jesus Christ celebrated this feast in the temple, then I think Christians can celebrate Chanukah in the synagogues.

What are the Church's view on the holiday, and are there other Canons on topic?

Lord, guide the Patriarch. You be our Teacher.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 11:39:22 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2010, 11:30:32 PM »

Probably another split coming real soon.  



http://www.helsinki.org.rs/doc/HB-No71.pdf

It is my fervent prayer that the Helsinki group has misread the situation.  Or possibly it takes a certain pleasure in contemplating division in the Serbian Church.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2010, 11:32:37 PM »
Dear Stashko,

God bless you!

I will let the canons speak for themselves, and not make a comment now.  I don't know what is in the Patriarch's mind or his heart. I am not permitted to judge that aspect of him.  But as an Orthodox Christian, I am entitled to--indeed called to--point out that this public action is against the canons of the Church. I am saddened by this. Let us pray for him.

In Christ,

Fr. Anastasios

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2010, 12:18:34 AM »
If I were a Patriarch of Serbia, and I celebrated Samhain, with some Wiccans, which was also attended by a Hindu from the priestly class, what would be said? How is this analogy different from what the Patriarch did?  I know that we and the Jews have a common ancestry, but what does that matter? Seriously?

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2010, 12:33:42 AM »
I highly doubt the authenticity of the Canons of the Apostles. Many Christian scholars do, and their criticisms persuade me. Further, we have it set out with approval in the New Testament, which we consider to be inspired, that the Apostles and early Church prayed and preached in the synagogues. If Chanukah is in fact the Feast of the Dedication, and if Jesus Christ celebrated this feast in the temple, then I think Christians can celebrate Chanukah in the synagogues.

What are the Church's view on the holiday, and are there other Canons on topic?

Lord, guide the Patriarch. You be our Teacher.

It doesn't matter if the Apostolic Canons were actually written by the Apostles, or they were a later codification of teachings passed down...they originated with the Apostles, their teachings are in the "stream" of Apostolic teaching, and they were accepted by later Councils, and are included in the Pedalion and other canonical collections. They reflect the faith of the Church.  If you think that you or modern, non-Orthodox scholars can opine their validity away, then you are basically putting yourself or them above the God-inspired Elders and Church Fathers, who were in deification and received the teaching from the Holy Spirit.

The Apostles did many things in the early days of the Church which we would not do now. There are no more Apostles on Earth. The early days of the Church were quite charismatic, reflecting a different reality. That being said, it's not like the Patriarch went in there and preached Christ as the ONLY way to salvation...the Apostles went into the Temple and taught Christ, and were chased out because of it.

If you sense a difference between what you read in the New Testament and what you read in the canons, the alleged discrepancy can most likely be linked to your level of understanding, and not some insurmountable conflict which would prompt us to throw out the Apostolic canons.

Moving to the point at hand; the canons of the Church which forbid prayer with Jews are not really proscriptive but rather descriptive; they state a fact: Jews deny Christ God.  One must ask himself: why would he want to pray with someone who denies Christ is God? Once that answer is clear, the canon is seen to be reflecting the reality of the situation, which is that Christians are not Jews, and Jews are not Christians. What message is being sent when we pray with Jews in their synagogues? That we accept that they are ok as they are? The Church does not teach this. It sends the wrong message.

That the Maccabees are saints in the Orthodox Church is irrelevant, because the Church celebrates them on August 1, not in December.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 12:49:14 AM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2010, 12:51:15 AM »
Moving to the point at hand; the canons of the Church which forbid prayer with Jews are not really proscriptive but rather descriptive; they state a fact: Jews deny Christ God.
What if a Jewish prayer simply states something like "Hear O Israel! Our Lord is One," without going into a rejection of particularly Christian beliefs? Would it be OK for a Christian to pray with the Jew in that instance?

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2010, 01:14:41 AM »

It doesn't matter if the Apostolic Canons were actually written by the Apostles, or they were a later codification of teachings passed down...they originated with the Apostles, their teachings are in the "stream" of Apostolic teaching, and they were accepted by later Councils,
.


In that case you must include 1 and 2 Clement among the canonical books of the New Testment and you must remove the Book of Revelation and several of the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament..  Apostolic Canon 85.

I understand thate the Ecumenical Councils did not accept the Apostolic Canons in their entirety but this was done by the Greeks only.  The holy Church of Rome was more selective and accepted only a certain number of them.  Can the canons rejected by one of the five Patriarchates, the Patriarchate which held the primacy, be counted as of ecumenical authority binding on the Universal Catholic Church?  <scratches head..>



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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2010, 01:17:11 AM »
The Serbian Patriarch is not the first one to light Hanukkah candles.  Five years ago, the Patriarch of Georgia lit a menorah and sang a psalm with a rabbi.  It was discussed in the private forum.  Those who have access can view the thread on it:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8100.0.html

I think these things are viewed as gestures of goodwill, rather than serious prayer services.  That could explain why the Georgian Patriarch was willing to do Hanukkah with a rabbi, when on the 90th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide he was unwilling to participate in a requiem with the Armenians.  
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 01:18:11 AM by Salpy »

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2010, 01:29:11 AM »

It doesn't matter if the Apostolic Canons were actually written by the Apostles, or they were a later codification of teachings passed down...they originated with the Apostles, their teachings are in the "stream" of Apostolic teaching, and they were accepted by later Councils,
.


In that case you must include 1 and 2 Clement among the canonical books of the New Testment and you must remove the Book of Revelation and several of the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament..  Apostolic Canon 85.

I understand thate the Ecumenical Councils did not accept the Apostolic Canons in their entirety but this was done by the Greeks only.  The holy Church of Rome was more selective and accepted only a certain number of them.  Can the canons rejected by one of the five Patriarchates, the Patriarchate which held the primacy, be counted as of ecumenical authority binding on the Universal Catholic Church?  <scratches head..>




"It has also seemed good to this holy Council, that the eighty-five canons, received and ratified by the holy and blessed Fathers before us, and also handed down to us in the name of the holy and glorious Apostles, should from this time forth remain firm and unshaken for the cure of souls and the healing of disorders. And in these canons we are bidden to receive the Constitutions of the Holy Apostles [written] by Clement. But formerly through the agency of those who erred from the faith certain adulterous matter was introduced, clean contrary to piety, for the polluting of the Church, which obscures the elegance and beauty of the divine decrees in their present form. We therefore reject these Constitutions so as the better to make sure of the edification and security of the most Christian flock; by no means admitting the offspring of heretical error, and cleaving to the pure and perfect doctrine of the Apostles."

--The Council in Trullo, Canon 2.

I don't feel that I am competent to question the judgment of an Ecumenical Synod.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2010, 01:44:17 AM »

It doesn't matter if the Apostolic Canons were actually written by the Apostles, or they were a later codification of teachings passed down...they originated with the Apostles, their teachings are in the "stream" of Apostolic teaching, and they were accepted by later Councils,
.


In that case you must include 1 and 2 Clement among the canonical books of the New Testment and you must remove the Book of Revelation and several of the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament..  Apostolic Canon 85.

I understand thate the Ecumenical Councils did not accept the Apostolic Canons in their entirety but this was done by the Greeks only.  The holy Church of Rome was more selective and accepted only a certain number of them.  Can the canons rejected by one of the five Patriarchates, the Patriarchate which held the primacy, be counted as of ecumenical authority binding on the Universal Catholic Church?  <scratches head..>




"It has also seemed good to this holy Council, that the eighty-five canons, received and ratified by the holy and blessed Fathers before us, and also handed down to us in the name of the holy and glorious Apostles, should from this time forth remain firm and unshaken for the cure of souls and the healing of disorders. And in these canons we are bidden to receive the Constitutions of the Holy Apostles [written] by Clement. But formerly through the agency of those who erred from the faith certain adulterous matter was introduced, clean contrary to piety, for the polluting of the Church, which obscures the elegance and beauty of the divine decrees in their present form. We therefore reject these Constitutions so as the better to make sure of the edification and security of the most Christian flock; by no means admitting the offspring of heretical error, and cleaving to the pure and perfect doctrine of the Apostles."

--The Council in Trullo, Canon 2.

I don't feel that I am competent to question the judgment of an Ecumenical Synod.

But you do already question it! 

Do you have 1 and 2 Clement in your New Testament?

Have you removed the Book of Revelation?

Have you removed the several deuterocanonical books of the OT which the Apostles did not accept as canonical?

Canon 85

____________________

And as I have mentioned the decisions of Trullo were not accepted by the pleroma of the Universal Church.  The Church which held the primacy in Orthodoxy, the Patriarchate of Rome, rejected many of these Apostolic Canons. 

To put it in a modern context for you...... We hold the 8th Ecumenical Council.  It formulates 85 Canons.  However the Church of Constantinople rejects the greater number of them.  Can these rejected canons be counted as binding on the Universal Church?

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2010, 02:19:37 AM »
Dear Stashko,

God bless you!

I will let the canons speak for themselves, and not make a comment now.  I don't know what is in the Patriarch's mind or his heart. I am not permitted to judge that aspect of him.  But as an Orthodox Christian, I am entitled to--indeed called to--point out that this public action is against the canons of the Church. I am saddened by this. Let us pray for him.

In Christ,

Fr. Anastasios

Amen, Father.  This is very sad news, indeed.  :(
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2010, 02:34:37 AM »
*Facepalm*

I think His Beatitude is well aware of these canons so He was well aware that this will cause controversy. I'm sorry for my Western prejudices that are based on harldy any factual basis but if there is some anti-Semitism in Serbia it's a good thing to show special respect to Jews in Serbia not just because they are Human beings and icons of God and loved by God but also because in order to show a good example about how to be a proper Christian to his own faithful. I'm hoping that this is just a some gesture of good will on His Beatitude's part. However praying in a non-Christian service is just inappropriate. So he was correct in showing respect and good will to the Jews but incorrect in (alleged) praying in a non-Christian service. And even his this was just a symbolic act that was not intended as a prayer I think His Beatitude should have understood that it will be understanded as a prayer. He could have shown his respect, Christian love and good will in some other way. I think the Jews are the first people that would understand if His Beatitude said that he can't attend non-Orthodox service because of his tradition because Jew's own traditions are as strict as ours. Or even a little stricter.

EDIT: Wow. I never would have believed that I'd write such a politically over-correct message.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 03:02:42 AM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2010, 02:43:39 AM »
because Jew's own traditions are as strict as ours. Or even a little stricter.

You raise a good point there, Alpo.  Jews will not allow non-Jews to participate actively in their ceremonies and prayers.  Clearly they do not see the lighting of these special Hanukkah candles as a prayer.

if memory serves, the Grand Mufti also lit a candle and other people with whom the Jews would certainly refuse to pray.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2010, 02:50:04 AM »
Serbs Protected the Jews to the best of there ability ,Including Albright, from what  i was told ,she escaped czechoslovakia from the Nazis to serbija.....As far a i know serbs do not hate the jews ,if some do it's prejudiced picked up from the west .... 



*Facepalm*

I think His Beatitude is well aware of these canons so He was well aware that this will cause controversy. I'm sorry for my Western prejudices that are based on harldy any factual basis but if there is some anti-Semitism in Serbia it's a good thing to show special respect to Jews in Serbia not just because they are Human beings and icons of God and loved by God but also because in order to show a good example about how to be a proper Christian to his own faithful. I'm hoping that this is just a some gesture of good will on his Beatitude's part. However praying in a non-Christian service is just inappropriate. So he was correct in showing respect and good will to the Jews but incorrect in (alleged) praying in a non-Christian service. And even his this was just a symbolic act that was not intended as a prayer I think His Beatitude should have understood that it will be understanded as a prayer. He could have shown his respect, Christian love and good will in some other way. I think the Jews are the first people that would understand if His Beatitude said that he can't attend non-Orthodox service because of his tradition because Jew's own traditions are as strict as ours. Or even a little stricter.
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2010, 02:54:36 AM »
because Jew's own traditions are as strict as ours. Or even a little stricter.

You raise a good point there, Alpo.  Jews will not allow non-Jews to participate actively in their ceremonies and prayers.  Clearly they do not see the lighting of these special Hanukkah candles as a prayer.

Really? So this Hanukkah is not considered as an official religious feast of Judaism and is on par with ethnic feasts of EO churches in diaspora? If that's the case His Beatitude has done nothing wrong and I was completely mistaken in critisizing His Beatitude. :-[ Talliot or Ebenezer, can you of confirm this? Is Hanukkah's service considered as an official religious service on par with for example Passover or is it technically just a secular feast?

Serbs Protected the Jews to the best of there ability ,Including Albright, from what  i was told ,she escaped czechoslovakia from the Nazis to serbija.....As far a i know serbs do not hate the jews ,if some do it's prejudiced picked up from the west ....  

Thank you for the correction, Stashko. I'm having a hunch that there is more anti-semitism in Eastern Europe than for example in Finland but fortunately it seems I was wrong. :)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 02:57:22 AM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2010, 03:04:58 AM »
I can't confirm it, but I have heard that Serbs are historically more friendly toward Jews than many of their neighbors.  It could come from a shared history of persecution at the hands of common enemies.  I'm sure others know the history better than I do.  I do recall that Israel was initially reluctant to support the US bombing of Kosovo.  
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 03:06:14 AM by Salpy »

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2010, 03:28:38 AM »
And yet another double post...

Oh well, at least my post count is little higher now. :angel:
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 03:37:12 AM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2010, 04:00:32 AM »
Oh yes, canonical Orthodox churches are canonical for being "canonical", they don't have to keep the canons.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2010, 08:51:55 AM »
Whether or not the Patriarch actually did something bad, I think he certainly acted in a way that is likely to be divisive to the Serbian Church.  I mean, I completely understand his wanting to show solidarity with the Jews.  However, I'm sure there are better ways to do this.  Perhaps have a rally with Muslims, Christians, and Jews.  Perhaps send out a pastoral letter.  Perhaps have a joint statement with Muslim, Orthodox, and Jewish leaders.  I don't think any of those would have been nearly as likely to be divisive as this.

I mean, Jews in Serbia would be more than understanding about his not wanting to go to a Jewish religious ceremony...after all, Orthodox Jews even require that Jews not go into a church building period - let alone to do anything like this in one.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2010, 11:14:16 AM »
As much as I love the Jews, I don't think this was a good ideer. I also wouldn't call them heathens.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2010, 11:26:22 AM »

But you do already question it! 

Do you have 1 and 2 Clement in your New Testament?

Have you removed the Book of Revelation?

Have you removed the several deuterocanonical books of the OT which the Apostles did not accept as canonical?

Canon 85

____________________

And as I have mentioned the decisions of Trullo were not accepted by the pleroma of the Universal Church.  The Church which held the primacy in Orthodoxy, the Patriarchate of Rome, rejected many of these Apostolic Canons. 

To put it in a modern context for you...... We hold the 8th Ecumenical Council.  It formulates 85 Canons.  However the Church of Constantinople rejects the greater number of them.  Can these rejected canons be counted as binding on the Universal Church?

Dear Fr. Ambrose,

I don't know how to answer the above post without either coming off as curt, or engaging in a comprehensive analysis of the entire canonical tradition and how it developed. Since I do not have time for the latter, and wish to avoid the former, I will merely suggest you read Spiritual Dimensions of the Holy Canons by Dr. Lewis Patsavos and An Overview of Orthodox Canon Law by Metropolitan Panteleimon of Rodopoulos, if you have not already read these works.

In Christ,

Fr. Anastasios
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2010, 11:26:47 AM »
I can't confirm it, but I have heard that Serbs are historically more friendly toward Jews than many of their neighbors.  It could come from a shared history of persecution at the hands of common enemies.  I'm sure others know the history better than I do.  I do recall that Israel was initially reluctant to support the US bombing of Kosovo.  
Yes. Ironically the Zionist press was the only one friendly to the Serbs. Holocaust survivors took out full page adds thanking the Serbs for their lives. The only countries I've seen who can compare to Serbia for philojudaism is the Netherlands and Denmark.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2010, 11:39:03 AM »
I can't confirm it, but I have heard that Serbs are historically more friendly toward Jews than many of their neighbors.  It could come from a shared history of persecution at the hands of common enemies.  I'm sure others know the history better than I do.  I do recall that Israel was initially reluctant to support the US bombing of Kosovo.  
Yes. Ironically the Zionist press was the only one friendly to the Serbs. Holocaust survivors took out full page adds thanking the Serbs for their lives. The only countries I've seen who can compare to Serbia for philojudaism is the Netherlands and Denmark.

You forgot about Bulgaria. Bulgarians saved their 50000 Jews.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2010, 12:00:20 PM »
I wouldn't want this to turn into "who was nicest to the Jews", much like who is the "least racist" in the US so I'll vote for the minorities to prove it, discussion.

What happened to the Jews was horrendous and a monstrous act. In the midst of this genocide, they acted much like we Christians are called to act, yet much of the time fail. I do feel a kinship/brotherhood to them, but Juadiasm isn't Orthodox Christianity. I don't think His Grace should be condemned or even rebuked. The Canons are a measuring stick, not a stick to beat someone with. Having said this, I don't believe (ONLY MY OPINION) that what His Grace did should be repeated or is the proper way to express this kinship or solidarity.  
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 12:01:06 PM by Lichnidos »
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2010, 12:22:54 PM »
FWIW, my Jewish boss tells me every Hanukkah that it's not a religious festival but a national one.  While a miracle did occur, "God stopped talking to us at that point," (she says) and it's just a commemoration of the defeat of those who tried to kill us all.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2010, 12:29:53 PM »
... Jews are not "Heathens" nor are they "Apostates".  Sheesh !


hea·then
  [hee-thuhn] IPA noun, plural -thens, -then, adjective
–noun
1.
an unconverted individual of a people that do not acknowledge the god of the Bible; a person who is neither a Jew, Christian, nor Muslim; pagan.


a·pos·tate
   /əˈpɒsteɪt, -tɪt/ Show Spelled[uh-pos-teyt, -tit] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc.
–adjective

http://dictionary.reference.com
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2010, 12:44:09 PM »
... Jews are not "Heathens" nor are they "Apostates".  Sheesh !


hea·then
  [hee-thuhn] IPA noun, plural -thens, -then, adjective
–noun
1.
an unconverted individual of a people that do not acknowledge the god of the Bible; a person who is neither a Jew, Christian, nor Muslim; pagan.


a·pos·tate
   /əˈpɒsteɪt, -tɪt/ Show Spelled[uh-pos-teyt, -tit] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc.
–adjective

http://dictionary.reference.com

Kind of like how deusveritasest isn't an Orthodox Christian  :police:

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #75 on: December 15, 2010, 02:46:55 PM »
While a miracle did occur, "God stopped talking to us at that point," (she says)

What did she mean?
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #76 on: December 15, 2010, 02:48:29 PM »
While a miracle did occur, "God stopped talking to us at that point," (she says)

What did she mean?
No more prophets.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #77 on: December 15, 2010, 02:55:53 PM »
While a miracle did occur, "God stopped talking to us at that point," (she says)

What did she mean?
No more prophets.

Bingo.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #78 on: December 15, 2010, 03:20:31 PM »
While a miracle did occur, "God stopped talking to us at that point," (she says)
What did she mean?
No more prophets.
Bingo.

Well, I know they certainly don't accept him as such, but we consider the prophetic tradition to have continued with St. John the Forerunner and Baptist. Likewise, prophecy continued to be one of the charismatic gifts in the New Testament period (see 1 Corinthians 12:10, 13:2, and all of Chapter 14; 1 Timothy 4:14 which links prophecy with anointing/ordination as seen in the Old Testament; Also the entirety of St. John the Evangelist's Apocalypse/Revelation is a prophetic work as noted in Chapter 1:3).
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 03:21:19 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2010, 03:22:49 PM »
FWIW, my Jewish boss tells me every Hanukkah that it's not a religious festival but a national one.  While a miracle did occur, "God stopped talking to us at that point," (she says) and it's just a commemoration of the defeat of those who tried to kill us all.

FWIW also....over the years with many Jewish co-workers and supervisors in the legal field, this is consistent with what I was always told...also that it was made larger than in the Old World because of peer pressure for Christmas gifts for the Jewish children.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2010, 03:38:37 PM »
"God stopped talking to us at that point,"

That must be one of the most gloomy religious view I've ever heard. :-X
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2010, 03:39:23 PM »
"God stopped talking to us at that point,"

That must be one of the most gloomy religious view I've ever heard. :-X

In her defense, she's a rather gloomy individual.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2010, 03:41:36 PM »
In her defense, she's a rather gloomy individual.

Was that her own view or was she just descriping Jewish faith in an ironic way?
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2010, 03:55:50 PM »
While a miracle did occur, "God stopped talking to us at that point," (she says)

What did she mean?
No more prophets.

OK. Is there a reason/explanation they give for why God would have stopped talking at that point?

Haha, maybe He kept talking, and they stopped listening! Haha!


Zechariah 13 talks about a time when Israel would attack all its prophets. The Judaic reply is that it is talking about false prophets. And it seems that is true. But it also talks about ALL prophets- "any who would yet prophesy." If the Messiah, filled with God's spirit, came at this point, it seems that he would be attacked too.

After mentioning this, Zechariah 13 does in fact talk about the Shepherd being smitten by the sword, and the people scattering.

If you can please find a place in Judaic literature that says that Judaism says that prophecy stopped in the Maccabean period, it would support Christianity, because it would fulfill Zechariah 13.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2010, 04:01:44 PM »
But you do already question it! 

You do much better when you direct your slander toward the RCs.

Do you have 1 and 2 Clement in your New Testament?

According to your aforementioned Ap. 85, they are not to be published, "on account of the mystical things in them."  So this is a spurious line of thought.

Have you removed the Book of Revelation?

No - it was added by later Fathers and Councils, and not prohibited by the Apostles' Canons.  You do believe that there is more to the development of the canon of scripture than just one canon, right?

Have you removed the several deuterocanonical books of the OT which the Apostles did not accept as canonical?

No - they were added by later Fathers and Councils, and not prohibited by the Apostles' Canons.  You do believe that there is more to the development of the canon of scripture than just one canon, right?

And as I have mentioned the decisions of Trullo were not accepted by the pleroma of the Universal Church.  The Church which held the primacy in Orthodoxy, the Patriarchate of Rome, rejected many of these Apostolic Canons. 

And the rest accepted them; so?

To put it in a modern context for you...... We hold the 8th Ecumenical Council.  It formulates 85 Canons.  However the Church of Constantinople rejects the greater number of them.  Can these rejected canons be counted as binding on the Universal Church?

It matters not; if your local church accepts them, then you're bound by them.  If the PoM has ratified them at some point, and they haven't been repealed, then you're bound to them aren't you, Fr. Ambrose?  Unless you don't follow your own Church's canonical legislation, that is.  Which of the Apostolic canons did Rome reject?  Why did they reject them?  Why should this decision be binding on the rest, considering that the rest of us were well represented at Trullo/Penthekte/Quintisext and accepted them, and have not repealed them since?  Why should we disregard the canons that have been upheld so closely for so long at your word alone?  Yes, there are canons that were essentially worthless within a generation or three from when they were written; they served their purpose for a short time, and when that purpose was exhausted they fell into disuse.  But I believe one would be hard-pressed in this case to prove that the canon in question has been disregarded for so long; it is a purely modern thing, from what I can tell, and thus the Church needs to take a stand one way or another - and until it does, then the relevant, accepted, and Spirit-guided relevant canons still apply.

In short, if you'd like to accomplish what you seem to desire (i.e. avoiding condemnatory statements against the Patriarch of Serbia), then you should try arguing that the canon isn't applicable (i.e. that the ceremony is political and not religious, etc.) rather than trying to cut off a branch of our canonical tradition, which seems to me like making a window by demolishing a wall with its foundation.

It would seem that by the canons, the Patriarch has ceased being an Orthodox Bishop by his actions. 

He must be tried by synod and convicted and deposed first.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 04:04:12 PM by Fr. George »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2010, 04:03:54 PM »
I can't confirm it, but I have heard that Serbs are historically more friendly toward Jews than many of their neighbors.  It could come from a shared history of persecution at the hands of common enemies.  I'm sure others know the history better than I do.  I do recall that Israel was initially reluctant to support the US bombing of Kosovo.  
Yes. Ironically the Zionist press was the only one friendly to the Serbs. Holocaust survivors took out full page adds thanking the Serbs for their lives. The only countries I've seen who can compare to Serbia for philojudaism is the Netherlands and Denmark.

You forgot about Bulgaria. Bulgarians saved their 50000 Jews.
Ah yes. I was just talking about them too.
Father Ambrose, should we bring up the Orthodox Christians in Romania and Bulgaria who were part of the AXIS?

I doubt if it is much use to debate with a man who has been discusing the Byzantine Enmpire and seems to believe that in the 1940s Romania and Bulgaria were part of Byzantium !!?  But if you wish to speak of them why don't you speak of the heroic Orthodox defence of the Jews and how not one Jew was lost in Bulgaria thanks to the actions of the Orthodox bishops who even laid down on railway lines and stopped the trains shipping Jews off to concentrationn camps.

Or the Patriach, who from the pulpit of his cathedral on Pascha excommunicated the Czar (who was of German origin, hence why he dragged the country into the Axis) if he signed the law implementing the Nurenberg laws in Bulgaria, and anyone who cooperated with them.

Or that Bulgaria ended up with more Jews after the war than it had before.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2010, 04:04:08 PM »
It is most likely her individual opinion and she has very strong ones, so she would probably talk your ear off in defending them.  She's one of those people who cannot be quiet for more than a few moments at a time and has the tendency to inundate you with information, usually repeating herself three or four times in one conversation.  Imagine a talking version of ialmisry's oft-overwhelming posts when he gets started on a given subject, only worse.

However, I think her belief is prevalent across many Jewish people, especially the more non-religious ones.  Regardless of what we, as Christians, may believe, for many Jews, God "stopped talking" to them at some point.  To us, they merely stopped listening, of course.

Even so, Hanukkah is celebrated more as an ethnic festival with a miraculous component as opposed to a religious festival, like Sukkot.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2010, 04:07:04 PM »
If you can please find a place in Judaic literature that says that Judaism says that prophecy stopped in the Maccabean period, it would support Christianity, because it would fulfill Zechariah 13.
You won't find such a statement in the Bible, that's for sure. In any event:

"Prophecy as a widespread phenomenon ceased with the destruction of the First Temple in 586 BCE. After the time of Ezra and the Great Assembly (350 BCE), prophecy ceased completely from the Jewish people. In the future, prophecy will be restored with the coming of the Messiah, may it be speedily in our days." (Rabbi Shraga Simmons)

From the Babylonian Talmud, Sotah 48b:

"For our Rabbis have taught: When Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi died, the Holy Spirit  departed from Israel...."
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 04:15:42 PM by Jetavan »
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2010, 04:08:17 PM »
I do have to agree with others on another point: Jews are not "heathens," "heretics," "apostates," etc. - all terms which imply being in the Church at some time.  They were not in the Christian Church when it was transformed (at Pentecost; the Church has existed from the first creation); their ancestors chose not to join.  They are Christ's relatives, an ancient people, human beings, and - from our POV - spiritually misguided.  Oh, well.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2010, 04:09:08 PM »
FWIW, my Jewish boss tells me every Hanukkah that it's not a religious festival but a national one.  While a miracle did occur, "God stopped talking to us at that point," (she says) and it's just a commemoration of the defeat of those who tried to kill us all.
Interesting, exonerating both the Religious Jews (who cut off the canon and hence the NT and put a safe distance between the revelation they accept and Christ) and the secular Jews (who prefer a deist God).
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2010, 04:13:31 PM »
The Apostolic Canons clearly state the Clemnet 1 & 2 are for Bishops only, not part of the public Holy Scripture! Why does this keep being argued?
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2010, 04:30:08 PM »
If you can please find a place in Judaic literature that says that Judaism says that prophecy stopped in the Maccabean period, it would support Christianity, because it would fulfill Zechariah 13.
You won't find such a statement in the Bible, that's for sure. In any event:

"Prophecy as a widespread phenomenon ceased with the destruction of the First Temple in 586 BCE. After the time of Ezra and the Great Assembly (350 BCE), prophecy ceased completely from the Jewish people. In the future, prophecy will be restored with the coming of the Messiah, may it be speedily in our days." (Rabbi Shraga Simmons)

From the Babylonian Talmud, Sotah 48b:

"For our Rabbis have taught: When Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi died, the Holy Spirit  departed from Israel...."

This is a big proof of Christianity because it matches Zechariah 13- that the people would reject anyone who prophesies at that time, then a Shepherd would be cut by a sword, then the people would scatter.

So we have discovered a proof of Christianity from our discussion of Hanukah.

Still, another part remains from Zechariah 13. What prophets were rejected and/or killed by Judean society after 350 BC?

I can only think of John the Baptist killed by the vassal king Herod
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 05:00:11 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #92 on: December 15, 2010, 05:19:51 PM »

It would seem that by the canons, the Patriarch has ceased being an Orthodox Bishop by his actions. 

He must be tried by synod and convicted and deposed first.

Given the current situation, I don't see that happening.  More likely that there will be a split.  It would be interesting to know your views on those that would leave.  IF he is guilty of a violation of a Canon that would require him to be excommunicated (or at least deposed), AND he does not repent, THEN are those that separate themselves from him schismatics? 

And BTW - I actually believe that we should give the Patriarch the chance to speak on the matter before any conclusions are made.  Granted, this looks bad, but everything may not be what it seems.  I am sure that I am goint to hear more about this at Church tonight.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #93 on: December 15, 2010, 05:20:58 PM »
Quote
You forgot about Bulgaria. Bulgarians saved their 50000 Jews.

They did indeed, within Bulgaria. But the 7,000+ Jews that were deported from Bulgarian-occupied Macedonia - transported through Bulgaria (btw) to Treblinka they did absolutely nothing.

Lest we forget, Bulgaria was also an Axis nation in WWII.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #94 on: December 15, 2010, 05:25:57 PM »
Will these actions of the Patriarch increase Serbian membership in the anti ecumenist Serbian "True Orthodox" Church which I think is already in existance?
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #95 on: December 15, 2010, 05:31:05 PM »
Defrocked Bishop Artemius has started one recently.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #96 on: December 15, 2010, 05:35:09 PM »
Quote
You forgot about Bulgaria. Bulgarians saved their 50000 Jews.

They did indeed, within Bulgaria. But the 7,000+ Jews that were deported from Bulgarian-occupied Macedonia - transported through Bulgaria (btw) to Treblinka they did absolutely nothing.

Lest we forget, Bulgaria was also an Axis nation in WWII.
No, its Czar was.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 05:36:56 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Robb

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #97 on: December 15, 2010, 05:40:13 PM »
I highly doubt the authenticity of the Canons of the Apostles. Many Christian scholars do, and their criticisms persuade me. Further, we have it set out with approval in the New Testament, which we consider to be inspired, that the Apostles and early Church prayed and preached in the synagogues. If Chanukah is in fact the Feast of the Dedication, and if Jesus Christ celebrated this feast in the temple, then I think Christians can celebrate Chanukah in the synagogues.

What are the Church's view on the holiday, and are there other Canons on topic?

Lord, guide the Patriarch. You be our Teacher.

It doesn't matter if the Apostolic Canons were actually written by the Apostles, or they were a later codification of teachings passed down...they originated with the Apostles, their teachings are in the "stream" of Apostolic teaching, and they were accepted by later Councils, and are included in the Pedalion and other canonical collections. They reflect the faith of the Church.  If you think that you or modern, non-Orthodox scholars can opine their validity away, then you are basically putting yourself or them above the God-inspired Elders and Church Fathers, who were in deification and received the teaching from the Holy Spirit.

The Apostles did many things in the early days of the Church which we would not do now. There are no more Apostles on Earth. The early days of the Church were quite charismatic, reflecting a different reality. That being said, it's not like the Patriarch went in there and preached Christ as the ONLY way to salvation...the Apostles went into the Temple and taught Christ, and were chased out because of it.

If you sense a difference between what you read in the New Testament and what you read in the canons, the alleged discrepancy can most likely be linked to your level of understanding, and not some insurmountable conflict which would prompt us to throw out the Apostolic canons.

Moving to the point at hand; the canons of the Church which forbid prayer with Jews are not really proscriptive but rather descriptive; they state a fact: Jews deny Christ God.  One must ask himself: why would he want to pray with someone who denies Christ is God? Once that answer is clear, the canon is seen to be reflecting the reality of the situation, which is that Christians are not Jews, and Jews are not Christians. What message is being sent when we pray with Jews in their synagogues? That we accept that they are ok as they are? The Church does not teach this. It sends the wrong message.

That the Maccabees are saints in the Orthodox Church is irrelevant, because the Church celebrates them on August 1, not in December.

These Canons were written before our politically correct day and age.  At the time nobody who held different religious beliefs would want to pray with eachother or hold joint worship services together, but its just the opposite today when religious leaders feel obliged to worship together and affirm the "value" o0f each others belief systems.
We live in a much more sensitive era then did the Apostles and Church Fathers.  Back then people had no problem proclaiming their own faith to be true and all those who did not hold it (And even most of those who did) Were damned for all eternity if they did not embrace that faith.
For right or wrong, better or worse, people these days just have trouble swallowing such an insensitive and anti pluralistic vision of things (Even most religious leaders apparently).  I
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Offline Lichnidos

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #98 on: December 15, 2010, 05:41:04 PM »

No, its Czar was.
Do have any more information on the Macedonian Jews? And did the Bulgarians?
[/quote]

Oh come on Isa! :)

Most Macedonian Jews came from Skopje, Bitola, and Shtip. (unless you count Thessalonica, which was once part of the same territory). There are plans to build a huge Holocaust Museum in Skopje, Macedonia by next year. I believe the Jews of the Balkans were Sephardic, if I'm not mistaken. All I know from my grandmother who was in Bitola at the time that axis forces (mixed German/Bulgarian/Albanian and even Macedonian sympathizers) at that time restricted people to their homes while they collected the Jews took them to the Railroad Station and transported them to Bulgaria to be taken to Treblinka. I do not believe most survived, if any.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #99 on: December 15, 2010, 05:45:23 PM »
No, its Czar was.
Do have any more information on the Macedonian Jews? And did the Bulgarians?

Oh come on Isa! :)

Most Macedonian Jews came from Skopje, Bitola, and Shtip. (unless you count Thessalonica, which was once part of the same territory). There are plans to build a huge Holocaust Museum in Skopje, Macedonia by next year. I believe the Jews of the Balkans were Sephardic, if I'm not mistaken. All I know from my grandmother who was in Bitola at the time that axis forces (mixed German/Bulgarian/Albanian and even Macedonian sympathizers) at that time restricted people to their homes while they collected the Jews took them to the Railroad Station and transported them to Bulgaria to be taken to Treblinka. I do not believe most survived, if any.

your lising of the Albanians as axis forces is setting off my slant meter.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 06:03:35 PM by ialmisry »
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #100 on: December 15, 2010, 05:59:32 PM »
Quote
your lising of the Albanians as axis forces is setting off my slant meter.

The SS Skanderberg Division or Balists?
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #101 on: December 15, 2010, 06:18:01 PM »
And BTW - I actually believe that we should give the Patriarch the chance to speak on the matter before any conclusions are made.  Granted, this looks bad, but everything may not be what it seems.  I am sure that I am goint to hear more about this at Church tonight.

I'll start with this one: I agree with Fr. Anastasios - we're not here to judge him.  We know what the canons say, we know what we saw, but we're not the judges either here or in heaven, so we'll put information out there while guarding our hearts and continuing to pray for him - because right now, above all speculation and whatnot, he's still a bishop of the Orthodox Church, and thus a shepherd of Christ's flock, and until a Synod declares him otherwise, we should treat him as such.  My responses below are tempered by the following question: Has he done wrong?  And the answer can only come from the Holy Spirit through a Synod.

He must be tried by synod and convicted and deposed first.

Given the current situation, I don't see that happening.  More likely that there will be a split. 

See, that's too bad; either he's done something wrong and should be dealt with canonically (i.e. deposed, given a chance to recant, or anathematized), or he hasn't done anything wrong and the Church should stay together.

It would be interesting to know your views on those that would leave.  IF he is guilty of a violation of a Canon that would require him to be excommunicated (or at least deposed), AND he does not repent, THEN are those that separate themselves from him schismatics? 

Well, I gave my view on most of this question above, but as to "require him to be excommunicated:" there's only 3 options involved, if he's done something wrong - 1. Require him to recant his heresy/error/whatever, and accept it and move on; 2. Convict him of wrong-doing and, regardless of his recanting or not, laicize/defrock him; or 3. If he refuses to recant when offered, then Anathematize him.  There's little to no precedent for excommunicating a sitting bishop; if it's serious enough to excommunicate, then he should be laicized, and if it's of highest importance (preaching heresy openly, leading to schism, etc.), then he should be anathematized.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #102 on: December 15, 2010, 06:19:42 PM »
Quote
your lising of the Albanians as axis forces is setting off my slant meter.

The SS Skanderberg Division or Balists?

Beat me to it.

May God guide the Serbian Church through these difficult times.  I don't know much about the Patriarch so I have no opinion on the matter, except that this is looking pretty naughty so far.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #103 on: December 15, 2010, 06:21:01 PM »
These Canons were written before our politically correct day and age.  At the time nobody who held different religious beliefs would want to pray with eachother or hold joint worship services together, but its just the opposite today when religious leaders feel obliged to worship together and affirm the "value" o0f each others belief systems.
We live in a much more sensitive era then did the Apostles and Church Fathers.  Back then people had no problem proclaiming their own faith to be true and all those who did not hold it (And even most of those who did) Were damned for all eternity if they did not embrace that faith.
For right or wrong, better or worse, people these days just have trouble swallowing such an insensitive and anti pluralistic vision of things (Even most religious leaders apparently).  

Let's not over-romanticize the past; in the early Christian era (when the Apostolic canons are said to have been written), there was a pluralistic, non-judgmental approach to religion in the world - which is why Judaism, and it's "Our God is the only God" attitude, was such a pot-stirrer.  Even in the very early Christian Imperial era, there were still many pagans amongst the population, and thus not as much popular condemnation of paganism as wrong.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #104 on: December 15, 2010, 06:22:51 PM »
I agree with Fr. George. I don't think chaos is the answer. Me, I'm just interested in His Grace's thoughts on this. I've done far worse.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #105 on: December 15, 2010, 06:40:58 PM »
Quote
your lising of the Albanians as axis forces is setting off my slant meter.

The SS Skanderberg Division or Balists?

And they differed from your "Macedonian sympathizers" how? Or, for that matter, from the French League, the German American Bund, the Nasjonal Sammling, the Parti National Social Chrétien, the Danmarks Nationalsocialistiske Arbejderparti, etc....
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Offline Lichnidos

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #106 on: December 15, 2010, 07:25:24 PM »

Quote
And they differed from your "Macedonian sympathizers" how? Or, for that matter, from the French League, the German American Bund, the Nasjonal Sammling, the Parti National Social Chrétien, the Danmarks Nationalsocialistiske Arbejderparti, etc....

Where did I say they differed? If you notice in my post upstairs I put several "sympathizers" all pretty much guilty as charged for collaborating with the NAZIs.

The point of my posts was to communicate just a little skepticism of those who claim to be "clean" of the holocaust atrocities. Bulgaria likes to celebrate yearly like this, yet not only were they an AXIS occupier, national/ethnic assimiliator, they really didn't do jack for the Jews of Macedonia and Greece.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #107 on: December 15, 2010, 07:45:16 PM »

Quote
And they differed from your "Macedonian sympathizers" how? Or, for that matter, from the French League, the German American Bund, the Nasjonal Sammling, the Parti National Social Chrétien, the Danmarks Nationalsocialistiske Arbejderparti, etc....

Where did I say they differed? If you notice in my post upstairs I put several "sympathizers" all pretty much guilty as charged for collaborating with the NAZIs.
So Macedonia was an Axis member too, like Albania, no?

Quote
The point of my posts was to communicate just a little skepticism of those who claim to be "clean" of the holocaust atrocities. Bulgaria likes to celebrate yearly like this,

I'll have to take your word for it, because I've never heard a word from any Bulgarian on the subject. Ever.

Btw, you do include Jews then, claiming to be "clean" of the holocaust atrocities, no?

Quote
yet not only were they an AXIS occupier, national/ethnic assimiliator, they really didn't do jack for the Jews of Macedonia and Greece.
Do much for the Gentiles of Macedonia and Greece?
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Offline Lichnidos

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #108 on: December 15, 2010, 11:48:01 PM »
Quote
So Macedonia was an Axis member too, like Albania, no?
Macedonia, like Albania was under occupation. A small segment of Macedonian nationalists sympathetic to Bulgaria were indeed collaborators, while the larger segment of Macedonian nationalists collaborated with Tito in the end both groups were sent to "Goli Otok Gulag" by Tito.

Quote
I'll have to take your word for it, because I've never heard a word from any Bulgarian on the subject. Ever.
You don't have to, it's up to you. One set of books will tell you one thing, another set will tell you another, and every single nation in the region seems falsified whatever they have in their government archives. So good luck. Me, I'll believe my grandfather who lived through a few of these occupations.

Quote
Btw, you do include Jews then, claiming to be "clean" of the holocaust atrocities, no?
Rumor has it that George Soros, a Hungarian Jew, collaborated with the NAZIs, but he was a wee lad so I don't think it counts.

Quote
Do much for the Gentiles of Macedonia and Greece?
They didn't occupy Greece, as far as I know. As for Macedonia, they entered as occupiers and as the war ended they claimed to be Macedonia's liberators from the facists. What they did do for Macedonian gentile was to claim they're really Bulgarian and actually still do so. I guess you can say they did something for them.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 11:50:20 PM by Lichnidos »
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #109 on: December 16, 2010, 03:38:50 AM »
It is most likely her individual opinion and she has very strong ones, so she would probably talk your ear off in defending them.  She's one of those people who cannot be quiet for more than a few moments at a time and has the tendency to inundate you with information, usually repeating herself three or four times in one conversation.  Imagine a talking version of ialmisry's oft-overwhelming posts when he gets started on a given subject, only worse.

However, I think her belief is prevalent across many Jewish people, especially the more non-religious ones.  Regardless of what we, as Christians, may believe, for many Jews, God "stopped talking" to them at some point.  To us, they merely stopped listening, of course.

Even so, Hanukkah is celebrated more as an ethnic festival with a miraculous component as opposed to a religious festival, like Sukkot.

Actually, the general view of Orthodox Jews (I can't really talk about other types of Jews because when I have studied Judaism, it has almost always been Orthodox or Karaite, what little I could find on the Karaites that is) is that prophecy can only take place when the majority of Jews in the world are gathered together in Israel.  So they do in fact believe that prophecy has completely stopped, though will come again with the return of the Messiah.
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Offline ag_vn

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #110 on: December 16, 2010, 06:39:34 AM »
Quote from: Lichnidos
The point of my posts was to communicate just a little skepticism of those who claim to be "clean" of the holocaust atrocities.

Well to my knowledge Bulgarians don't deny that Macedonian and Thracian Jews were sent to Treblinka.


Quote
Bulgaria likes to celebrate yearly like this, yet not only were they an AXIS occupier, national/ethnic assimiliator, they really didn't do jack for the Jews of Macedonia and Greece.

Bulgarians Jews like to celebrate this yearly. If Bulgaria wasn't an Axis partner, Bulgarian Jews wouldn't have been saved. It's the Bulgarian Jews (almost all of them emigrated freely to the State of Israel after WWII) who say, We are alive, because we were born in Bulgaria.



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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #111 on: December 16, 2010, 08:05:35 AM »
People here seem unfamiliar with Apostolic Canon 85.

Some here are confusing the acceptance by the Apostles of 1 and 2 Clement in the New Testament with the Constitutions which are not considered appropriate for the public.  Regrettably I have even been accused of slander!

A reading of the Canon will clarify matters and exonerate me from the charge by a brother priest that I am slandering.

Canon 85. Let the following books be esteemed venerable and holy by all of you, both clergy and laity.
[A list of books of the Old Testament ...] And our sacred books, that is, of the New Testament, are
the four Gospels, of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John; the fourteen Epistles of Paul; two Epistles of Peter;
three of John; one of James; one of Jude; two Epistles of Clement; and the Constitutions dedicated to
you, the bishops, by me, Clement, in eight books, which is not appropriate to make public before all,
because of the mysteries contained in them; and the Acts of us, the Apostles.

By the way notice the very explicit claim by Canon 85 that this enumeration of the canonical books of the New Testament is coming directly from the Apostles -- "and the Acts of us, the Apostles."

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #112 on: December 16, 2010, 08:17:40 AM »

According to your aforementioned Ap. 85, they are not to be published, "on account of the mystical things in them."  So this is a spurious line of thought.


The Apostles are not speaking here of 1 and 2 Clement but of the Constitutions.

1 and 2 Clement are not mystical imho but rather pragmatic exhortation for Christian living, the first of course being directed to settling discord in the church at Corinth.

People may wish to read them for themselves....

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-hoole.html

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/2clement-hoole.html

Offline cizinec

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #113 on: December 16, 2010, 08:42:39 AM »
Okay, I've scanned through the thread and I don't get the big deal.

1.  St. Paul did it.  Holy cow, almost all the apostles did it.  If some canon condemns the apostles, I'm pretty sure you're either misreading the canons or the canons are wrong.  Since the canons are probably right, where do you suppose that leaves y'all?

2.  Lighting a candle isn't always a prayer.  I can light a candle because the room is dark.  I can light a candle because I need to light something bigger on fire.  I can light a candle to represent family who have died or soldiers in Afghanistan or whatever else (it's symbolic, but not *all* symbolism is prayer).  Further, if it *was* prayer, it was *his* prayer and he was not led in prayer by someone of a different faith.  Have any of you been in the military?  If you have access to a Catholic Church, you go light candles there.  About the only place I wouldn't go in to light a candle so that *I* can pray is a mosque.

3.  If you aren't Serbian Orthodox, why do you want to cause scandal in my church?  I'm sure it's because you are so much holier than us and we need you to tell us what to do.

Patriarch Irinej followed the examples of the apostles by going to a synagogue and lighting a candle in remembrance, with whatever prayer that may have been included being an Orthodox one.  Indeed, the Jews could scandalize:  Christian leads prayer in synagogue!

I swear, some of you are busy bodies always on the prowl for a . . . I can't say that word.  Starts with a "b" and rhymes with . . . oh forget it.

Carry on.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #114 on: December 16, 2010, 09:53:56 AM »
Okay, I've scanned through the thread and I don't get the big deal.

1.  St. Paul did it.  Holy cow, almost all the apostles did it.  If some canon condemns the apostles, I'm pretty sure you're either misreading the canons or the canons are wrong.  Since the canons are probably right, where do you suppose that leaves y'all?

2.  Lighting a candle isn't always a prayer.  I can light a candle because the room is dark.  I can light a candle because I need to light something bigger on fire.  I can light a candle to represent family who have died or soldiers in Afghanistan or whatever else (it's symbolic, but not *all* symbolism is prayer).  Further, if it *was* prayer, it was *his* prayer and he was not led in prayer by someone of a different faith.  Have any of you been in the military?  If you have access to a Catholic Church, you go light candles there.  About the only place I wouldn't go in to light a candle so that *I* can pray is a mosque.

3.  If you aren't Serbian Orthodox, why do you want to cause scandal in my church?  I'm sure it's because you are so much holier than us and we need you to tell us what to do.

Patriarch Irinej followed the examples of the apostles by going to a synagogue and lighting a candle in remembrance, with whatever prayer that may have been included being an Orthodox one.  Indeed, the Jews could scandalize:  Christian leads prayer in synagogue!

I swear, some of you are busy bodies always on the prowl for a . . . I can't say that word.  Starts with a "b" and rhymes with . . . oh forget it.

Carry on.

Amen. It is said that it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. The relationship between Christians and Jews in Europe is covered with much darkness and the example of Serbs and Jews during the Nazi era is one of the points of light in that darkness.  Enough said.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 09:54:15 AM by podkarpatska »

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #115 on: December 16, 2010, 11:20:25 AM »
This seems to be a good study of the scriptural basis of Hannukah: http://ecumenicalbuddhism.blogspot.com/2010/12/hanukkah-festival-of-lights.html
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #116 on: December 16, 2010, 11:57:09 AM »
I clicked on the link to look at the article, but I couldn't get past the very odd attempt to relate Christianity to the Chinese sanjiao.

Quote
Buddhism is the successor of the tribal Hindu faith. Apostolic Christianity is the successor of the tribal Jewish religion. LaoZi is the greatest prophet of the Dao. Siddhartha Gautama is Saint Ioasaph in the Orthodox & Catholic Christian Churches. Jesus of Nazareth can, in truth, be called a Buddha. Together; Buddhism, Daoism & Confucianism are actually three in one San Jiao He Yi faith. Christ is the Eternal Dao, who is also One with the Father & Holy Spirit in the Holy Trinity.

Could you explain this a bit more?
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2010, 12:04:55 PM »
I must admit to being troubled by this.  We don't know all of the details, so hopefully there has been some misunderstanding as to what happened.  But it genuinely concerns me that there is such a reflexive defense of what appears to have happened.  The problem is that the pattern has become familiar….an ecumenical act causes scandal, followed by explanations about how it isn't really what it appears to be.

For example, it seems that every time there is joint prayer with Roman Catholics, there is an artful explanation about how, technically, it doesn't count.  Or how, technically, it's ok as long as X or Y wasn't done.  Followed by lawyerly arguments for years after the fact on both sides.  But why do it in the first place?  It seems clear that there is a serious potential for misunderstanding on all sides.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2010, 12:09:04 PM »
I clicked on the link to look at the article, but I couldn't get past the very odd attempt to relate Christianity to the Chinese sanjiao.

Quote
Buddhism is the successor of the tribal Hindu faith. Apostolic Christianity is the successor of the tribal Jewish religion. LaoZi is the greatest prophet of the Dao. Siddhartha Gautama is Saint Ioasaph in the Orthodox & Catholic Christian Churches. Jesus of Nazareth can, in truth, be called a Buddha. Together; Buddhism, Daoism & Confucianism are actually three in one San Jiao He Yi faith. Christ is the Eternal Dao, who is also One with the Father & Holy Spirit in the Holy Trinity.

Could you explain this a bit more?
Siddhartha Gautama was born into a kshatriya family; thus, Siddhartha came out of a Vedic, or "Hindu", context. The Vedic peoples were divided into different lineages, or "tribes". Likewise with Jesus of Nazareth, and the Hebrew tribes.

Laozi is considered the founder of Taoism/Daoism.

The story of the Siddhartha Gautama's enlightenment as the Buddha, entered into Christianity in the form of the Saints Barlaam and Josaphat.

In Buddhism, the highest realization is that of Buddha-hood, so (in Buddhist language) the Son of God may be interpreted as being a "Buddha".

It's common in Taiwan for people to see Buddhism, Daoism, and Confucianism as different manifestations of one Truth. The movement called I-Kuan Tao takes this position, and also incorporates Christianity (and, thus, Judaism) and Islam. This might be an I-Kuan Tao-influenced site.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #119 on: December 16, 2010, 02:26:19 PM »
I clicked on the link to look at the article, but I couldn't get past the very odd attempt to relate Christianity to the Chinese sanjiao.

Quote
Buddhism is the successor of the tribal Hindu faith. Apostolic Christianity is the successor of the tribal Jewish religion. LaoZi is the greatest prophet of the Dao. Siddhartha Gautama is Saint Ioasaph in the Orthodox & Catholic Christian Churches. Jesus of Nazareth can, in truth, be called a Buddha. Together; Buddhism, Daoism & Confucianism are actually three in one San Jiao He Yi faith. Christ is the Eternal Dao, who is also One with the Father & Holy Spirit in the Holy Trinity.

Could you explain this a bit more?
Siddhartha Gautama was born into a kshatriya family; thus, Siddhartha came out of a Vedic, or "Hindu", context. The Vedic peoples were divided into different lineages, or "tribes". Likewise with Jesus of Nazareth, and the Hebrew tribes.

Laozi is considered the founder of Taoism/Daoism.

The story of the Siddhartha Gautama's enlightenment as the Buddha, entered into Christianity in the form of the Saints Barlaam and Josaphat.

In Buddhism, the highest realization is that of Buddha-hood, so (in Buddhist language) the Son of God may be interpreted as being a "Buddha."

I understand that much. I just wonder where Christianity fits into this Chinese brand of syncretism. It seems to me that, if you want to bring people to Christ, starting with an attitude of "they're all the same" is counter-productive.

Quote
It's common in Taiwan for people to see Buddhism, Daoism, and Confucianism as different manifestations of one Truth.

The attitude is certainly not limited to Taiwan- it has a long history in Chinese popular religion. My mom (Malaysian Chinese) was fond of it and even applied it to all religions. I remember talking to some Daoist monks on Tai Shan and the only spiritual advice they gave me was "chant amituofo."

But the attitude isn't universal. The Buddhists especially tend to be more inclined to think their way is superior. Chinese Buddhists, that is, those who are particularly committed to Buddhism, tend to look down on Daoism. It is at best a "divine vehicle" for attaining a heavenly rebirth; at worst, just a racket for sorcerers and charlatans. Some of the Chinese Buddhists are fond of repeating a story from the Han dynasty where the Emperor held a contest between Buddhist missionaries and Daoist sorcerers. The Daoists flew in or teleported in; the Buddhists walked in. Both sides set up their respective scriptures opposite each other. The Daoists tried casting spells to burn up the Buddhist scriptures, but failed. Then a light emanated from a Buddhist relic that destroyed the Daoist scriptures. The Daoists were executed and the Buddhists won the emperor's favour.

I saw Hieromonk Damascene give a talk about his experiences in China, where he met with Buddhist and Daoist monks. The Daoists saw a lot of common ground with Fr. Damascene but when he talked to the Buddhists about our faith in God and an immortal soul they said "you sound like those Daoists!"

Likewise, to the Buddhists, Confucianism is only a "human vehicle". Only the Buddha-Dharma offers salvation from samsara.

Historically, many Confucians held both Daoism and Buddhism in contempt. Those who respected Laozi tended to separate him from actual Daoism.

And of course some Daoists have had their polemical moments. For example, the Hua Hu Jing was forged to prove that Laozi traveled West to India, where he became known as the Buddha, but the Indians didn't understand him, hence the creation of Buddhism.

And to be honest I don't think it's philosophically tenable to say that Daoism and Buddhism are the same. Daoism and Confucianism have much more in common.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #120 on: December 16, 2010, 03:25:39 PM »
People here seem unfamiliar with Apostolic Canon 85.

Some here are confusing the acceptance by the Apostles of 1 and 2 Clement in the New Testament with the Constitutions which are not considered appropriate for the public.  Regrettably I have even been accused of slander!

A reading of the Canon will clarify matters and exonerate me from the charge by a brother priest that I am slandering.

Canon 85. Let the following books be esteemed venerable and holy by all of you, both clergy and laity.
[A list of books of the Old Testament ...] And our sacred books, that is, of the New Testament, are
the four Gospels, of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John; the fourteen Epistles of Paul; two Epistles of Peter;
three of John; one of James; one of Jude; two Epistles of Clement; and the Constitutions dedicated to
you, the bishops, by me, Clement, in eight books, which is not appropriate to make public before all,
because of the mysteries contained in them; and the Acts of us, the Apostles.

By the way notice the very explicit claim by Canon 85 that this enumeration of the canonical books of the New Testament is coming directly from the Apostles -- "and the Acts of us, the Apostles."

Do you have a source for this (because it has more semicolons than I remember)?  Which goes to my next response:

According to your aforementioned Ap. 85, they are not to be published, "on account of the mystical things in them."  So this is a spurious line of thought.

The Apostles are not speaking here of 1 and 2 Clement but of the Constitutions.

1 and 2 Clement are not mystical imho but rather pragmatic exhortation for Christian living, the first of course being directed to settling discord in the church at Corinth.

The versions of the canon that I've read don't have a semicolon between 1 and 2 Clement and the Constitutions.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 03:27:13 PM by Fr. George »
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #121 on: December 16, 2010, 04:48:58 PM »
People here seem unfamiliar with Apostolic Canon 85.

Some here are confusing the acceptance by the Apostles of 1 and 2 Clement in the New Testament with the Constitutions which are not considered appropriate for the public.  Regrettably I have even been accused of slander!

A reading of the Canon will clarify matters and exonerate me from the charge by a brother priest that I am slandering.

Canon 85. Let the following books be esteemed venerable and holy by all of you, both clergy and laity.
[A list of books of the Old Testament ...] And our sacred books, that is, of the New Testament, are
the four Gospels, of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John; the fourteen Epistles of Paul; two Epistles of Peter;
three of John; one of James; one of Jude; two Epistles of Clement; and the Constitutions dedicated to
you, the bishops, by me, Clement, in eight books, which is not appropriate to make public before all,
because of the mysteries contained in them; and the Acts of us, the Apostles.

By the way notice the very explicit claim by Canon 85 that this enumeration of the canonical books of the New Testament is coming directly from the Apostles -- "and the Acts of us, the Apostles."

Do you have a source for this (because it has more semicolons than I remember)?  Which goes to my next response:

According to your aforementioned Ap. 85, they are not to be published, "on account of the mystical things in them."  So this is a spurious line of thought.

The Apostles are not speaking here of 1 and 2 Clement but of the Constitutions.

1 and 2 Clement are not mystical imho but rather pragmatic exhortation for Christian living, the first of course being directed to settling discord in the church at Corinth.

The versions of the canon that I've read don't have a semicolon between 1 and 2 Clement and the Constitutions.

I took the text from a site which has the Greek and English text parallel.  The reason for that was that I was hoping for some reliability.  As you know, Canon 85 has quite a few variants and I am not sure if anybody knows the true and original version.  You are closer to your years of academic studies; do you know if anybody has yet established the original version?

Because of these variant texts it was wrong of you to accuse me of slander.   What you have done is slander me !! 

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #122 on: December 16, 2010, 05:14:11 PM »
I just wonder where Christianity fits into this Chinese brand of syncretism. It seems to me that, if you want to bring people to Christ, starting with an attitude of "they're all the same" is counter-productive.
I don't think that the ecumenicalbuddhist or the I-Kuan Tao people want to bring people to Christ, that is, to the Church.

Still, for people who have a wariness about Christ, showing them that Christianity, Daoism, and Buddhism have similarities, may lead them to be more open towards Christ and, eventually, the Church.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 05:18:09 PM by Jetavan »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #123 on: December 16, 2010, 05:40:54 PM »
I took the text from a site which has the Greek and English text parallel.  The reason for that was that I was hoping for some reliability.  As you know, Canon 85 has quite a few variants and I am not sure if anybody knows the true and original version.  You are closer to your years of academic studies; do you know if anybody has yet established the original version?

I wouldn't know - all I know is that there are no semicolons in Greek (modern or ancient); in Demotic Greek the semicolon is our question mark.  Your analysis of the text depends heavily on the semicolon in the translation you provided.

Because of these variant texts it was wrong of you to accuse me of slander.   What you have done is slander me !!   

My accusation has nothing to do with "variant texts."  It has to do with your accusing Fr. Anastasios of questioning the Church's canonical tradition when he has explicitly said he is not, and then using questionable (at best) evidence to demonstrate your point. 

If you have felt that I have slandered you, I pray you forgive me, for I have no such intention, and if my words created that effect (of slandering you), then I sincerely apologize.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 05:41:32 PM by Fr. George »
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, & godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope & glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed & purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.  Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. (Titus 2:11-15)

Offline cizinec

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #124 on: December 16, 2010, 11:53:27 PM »
I must admit to being troubled by this.  We don't know all of the details, so hopefully there has been some misunderstanding as to what happened.  But it genuinely concerns me that there is such a reflexive defense of what appears to have happened.  The problem is that the pattern has become familiar….an ecumenical act causes scandal, followed by explanations about how it isn't really what it appears to be.

For example, it seems that every time there is joint prayer with Roman Catholics, there is an artful explanation about how, technically, it doesn't count.  Or how, technically, it's ok as long as X or Y wasn't done.  Followed by lawyerly arguments for years after the fact on both sides.  But why do it in the first place?  It seems clear that there is a serious potential for misunderstanding on all sides.


Yes, and I believe this was Christ's approach as well.  Keep away from prostitutes, tax collectors, those nasty Samaritans . . . Our Lord wouldn't have wanted to cause a scandal.

I'm pretty sure Patriarch Irinej didn't go to show the equality of Judaism to Christianity.  If he did something wrong, it will be addressed. 

Pray, but don't worry.  Christ's Church in Serbia has overcome more than a candle lighting in a synagogue.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #125 on: December 17, 2010, 12:07:00 AM »
Dear Stashko,

God bless you!

I will let the canons speak for themselves, and not make a comment now.  I don't know what is in the Patriarch's mind or his heart. I am not permitted to judge that aspect of him.  But as an Orthodox Christian, I am entitled to--indeed called to--point out that this public action is against the canons of the Church. I am saddened by this. Let us pray for him.

In Christ,

Fr. Anastasios

Dear Father,

I am fully concur with you, Father, in your circumspect approach to this matter...

Condemning bishops

Canon 13. The All-evil One having planted the seed of heretical tares in the Church of Christ, and seeing these being cut down to the roots with the sword of the Spirit, took a different course of trickery by attempting to divide the body of Christ by means of the madness of the schismatics. ...the holy Council has decreed that henceforth if any Presbyter or Deacon, on the alleged ground that his own bishop has been condemned for certain crimes, before a conciliar or synodal hearing and investigation has been made, should dare to secede from his communion, and fail to mention his name in the sacred prayers of the liturgical services in accordance with the custom handed down in the Church, he shall be subject to prompt deposition from office and shall be stripped of every prelatic honor. For anyone who has been established in the rank of Presbyter and forestalls the Metropolitan’s judgment, and, judging matters before a trial has been held, insofar as lies in his power, condemns his own father and Bishop, he is not even worthy of the honor or name of Presbyter. Those, on the other hand, who go along with him, in case any of them should be among those in holy orders, they too shall forfeit their own rights to honor, or, in case they should be monks or laymen, let them be utterly excommunicated from the Church until such time as they spew upon and openly renounce all connection with the schismatics and decide to return to their own Bishop.
 
First-Second Council of Constantinople, 861AD, canon 13

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #126 on: December 17, 2010, 03:14:52 AM »
i personally find it sad that so many self-described Christians abandon love so readily and work themselves into a froth...behaving exactly as pharisees...all while insisting on their own Orthodoxy.

lets not get into a discussion of all the canons that all of us violate repeatedly simply by existing in modern society.

The canons aren't laws that get applied to all and sundry as laymen see fit. They are guidelines for Bishops to use in their pastoral care of us (not necessarily so) rational sheep. So, unless you're a Bishop, put away your copy of the Pedalion, and stop applying it to other people.

my understanding of the situation is that hanukah was over and the particular event that the Patriarch attended was essentially a secular commemoration...not part of the service itself.

it is shameful that people speak of deposing or excommunicating bishops and place the law (guidelines, really) over love and humility.

how people fail to see their parsing of the canons and overreacting as exactly what Christ condemned in the pharisees is beyond me.

i suppose it's just another opportunity for people to cry "ecumenism!" "heresy!" "anti-Christ!" and "schism!" when confronted with a mere act of love and expression of coexistence in a region where there is a strong and honorable tradition of that.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #127 on: December 17, 2010, 10:22:09 AM »
i personally find it sad that so many self-described Christians abandon love so readily and work themselves into a froth...behaving exactly as pharisees...all while insisting on their own Orthodoxy.

lets not get into a discussion of all the canons that all of us violate repeatedly simply by existing in modern society.

The canons aren't laws that get applied to all and sundry as laymen see fit. They are guidelines for Bishops to use in their pastoral care of us (not necessarily so) rational sheep. So, unless you're a Bishop, put away your copy of the Pedalion, and stop applying it to other people.

my understanding of the situation is that hanukah was over and the particular event that the Patriarch attended was essentially a secular commemoration...not part of the service itself.

it is shameful that people speak of deposing or excommunicating bishops and place the law (guidelines, really) over love and humility.

how people fail to see their parsing of the canons and overreacting as exactly what Christ condemned in the pharisees is beyond me.

i suppose it's just another opportunity for people to cry "ecumenism!" "heresy!" "anti-Christ!" and "schism!" when confronted with a mere act of love and expression of coexistence in a region where there is a strong and honorable tradition of that.

Well said, I recall the words of a wise old priest-teacher who said that a rudder was of no use without a ship and a captain unless you are alone in a dinghy.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #128 on: March 12, 2011, 12:08:04 AM »
HANUKKAH IN JUDAIC AND CHRISTIAN TRADITION

Alveus Lacuna

Thanks for sharing the story about the Serbian Patriarch celebrating Hannukah in the synagogue.

My two immediate reactions are that
(1) it seems good because Hannukah was part of the 1st century AD Judean religious culture that early Christianity and the early Christians were part of.

(2) more information and background about the event should have been given because it appears to be an important event. Who arranged the event, how was it organized, and what are the Serbian Patriach's comments.

Regards.



Jetavan,

It's interesting that, as you say, in Judaism:
Quote
"Chanukkah is not a very important religious holiday. The holiday's religious significance is far less than that of Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Passover, and Shavu'ot. It is roughly equivalent to Purim in significance, and you won't find many non-Jews who have even heard of Purim! Chanukkah is not mentioned in Jewish scripture; the story is related in the book of Maccabees, which Jews do not accept as scripture."

On the other hand, Purim is a meaningful holiday. So perhaps Hannukah was also a meaningful holiday in 1st century Judea, in which Christians participated.

Regards.



jnorm888,

You mentioned that Hannukah is in Maccabees, and then wrote:

Quote
It's been a long time since I read Maccabees, but I always thought Hannukah was based on what the Maccabees did.

If Maccabees only describes the events that Hannukah commemorates, then technically, the Festival of Hannukah itself isn't in Maccabees, which is a semi-canonical part of the Old Testament.

I'm not sure if your idea is correct when you write: "The Slavonic rite might call it Deuterocanical, but I thought the Byzantine rite didn't make a distinction between the books."

I think that in the Russian Orthodox church it's semi-canonical.

Peace




deusveritasest,

I BELIEVE YOU THAT in a broad sense, the story on which Hannukah is based is in Maccabees. And like you, I don't remember hearing specifically in Maccabees

"about the story of the restoration of the Temple when they only had enough oil to light the Menorah for one day, which was not going to be enough time for them to make more oil. However, miraculously, the flame stayed lit for eight days, and they managed to make more oil in time for the flame to not go out."

I AM CONFUSED BY WHAT YOU MEAN THAT "The Second Temple itself proves that God doesn't uphold Sola Scriptura, because if He did He would not have endorsed a Temple which did not fulfill the Law", because I didn't know, and am surprised to hear, that the Second Temple violated the Law somehow, as you appear to suggest.

All the Best



Rufus,

I was researching about the Septuagint apocrypha, and from the reading I classified the apocrypha as deuterocanonical within Orthodoxy.

Also, I think that the Anglicans have the same classification. However, Orthodox and western Christians have a few different OT-Apocryphal books in their Bibles, even among those books that are OT-apocrypha.

You are right that::

Quote
Our Lord observed it.

John 10:22-24 At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

(Which proves He didn't believe in Sola Scriptura!!)

However, I'm not sure that the Feast of the Dedication here shows that he didn't beleive in sola scriptura. After all, protestants have Thanksgiving, which isn't sola scriptura. I think actually though that Protestants don't really believe that scripture is the "only" authority anyway, but that's for another thread.

Regards.



Irish Hermit,

Hello, it's fun writing with you.

Your first point is that Hannukah's a kind of secular Memorial Day to celebrate victory.

You mentioned that they light candles because after winning Maccabeus lit a candle. But I thought that the lighting of candles in the festival is because they kept the candles lit magically throughout the 8 days in the war.

You're right that:
Our Saviour is recorded as being at the Temple for this special Victory Day. See John 10:22-23
In this instance, lighting a candle is an act of thanksgiving for the liberation of the People of God from enemy occupation - an occupation by enemies which had closed down temple worship and synagogue worship.
People overlook the fact that this was OUR temple


But regarding your words "OUR worship - the true worship desired by God before the incarnation of His Son", I think it depends on if the celebration started before Christianity began.

Father Bless.



Alpo,
I agree that:

Quote
if there is some anti-Semitism in Serbia it's a good thing to show special respect to Jews in Serbia not just because they are Human beings and icons of God and loved by God

YOU ASKED:
Quote
Is Hanukkah's service considered as an official religious service on par with for example Passover or is it technically just a secular feast?

Another poster had posted a quote that Hannukah was a religious festival on the level of Purim, another Judaic holiday.

All the Best!



IALMISRY,

Hello, brother :)

You are right that today Judaism doesn't accept Maccabees as scripture. But I have some doubt that "in Christ's time they did." It seems like it could just be common religious literature in very widespread circulation, a kind of appendix of traditions.

So "The fact that they celebrate Hanukkah when its scriptural warrant is only in Maccabbees" doesn't necessarily show that Judaism accepted it as scripture, because they could still just be honoring something that passed down in oral tradition.



FATHERHL:

It sounds like you're right that:
The first Hannukah took place ca. 164 BC.   Ironically the event is recorded in a book of the Bible retained by the Orthodox Church but deleted by the Masoretes and the present day rabbinic Jews

Thanks for citing 1 Maccabees 4:36-59. Now I do believe that Hannukah is the Feast of teh Dedication when the Lord walked in the Temple, because the dates match up- 8 days starting on the 25th of Kislev.

I was thinking about mentioning about Orthodox observance of Hannukah on my blog (rakovskii.livejournal.com), because Father Abraham Winogradsky in the Holy Land attends Hannukah celebrations.

All the Best



Schultz,
You mentioned that my Jewish boss tells me every Hanukkah that it's not a religious festival but a national one.  While a miracle did occur... and it's just a commemoration of the defeat of those who tried to kill us all.

However, it sounds like it has a religious aspect, because it is celebrated in the synagogues and involves a miracle story. Also, BTW, I am somewhat skeptical about the validity of miracle stories handed down in oral tradition.

What do you think?

Hehe, funny: She's one of those people who cannot be quiet for more than a few moments at a time and has the tendency to inundate you with information, usually repeating herself three or four times in one conversation.  Imagine a talking version of ialmisry's oft-overwhelming posts when he gets started on a given subject, only worse.

I can imagine such a post, because I make it. ;D

Still, I am unsure about whether "Even so, Hanukkah is celebrated more as an ethnic festival with a miraculous component as opposed to a religious festival, like Sukkot." It seems hard to distinguish Hannukah from a religious festival, partly because pre-Christian Judaism was so bound up with the people.

For example, Hannukah deals with a miracle in a Temple during a war, and is celebrated in a synagogue, while Passover celebrates a miracle- the angel passing over the Israelites- during the people's escape.

BTW, I like your Avatar  ;)



Nigula,


Thanks for sharing the link on Hannukah's scriptural basis.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #129 on: March 12, 2011, 12:08:59 AM »
THE TIME OF REJECTION OF PROPHECY

Jetavan,

You mentioned that after the Hannukah event there were no more prophets. However, I think there are some Judaic books that some Christians consider semi-canonical, like 2 Esdras, that may have been written after the that time, and sound prophetic.

The perception that there were no more prophets after Hannukah goes along with Zechariah 13's prophecy that the Good Shepherd would come at a time when any prophets would be rejected as false. One problem I have with Zechariah 13 is that neither John the Baptist nor Jesus were apparently killed or "thrust through" by their parents as Zechariah 13 describes.

Thanks for posting the quotes showing Judaism's view that prophecy had stopped by the time Christianity began.



Schultz,

I think you're right that
Quote
"her belief is prevalent across many Jewish people, especially the more non-religious ones.  Regardless of what we, as Christians, may believe, for many Jews, God "stopped talking" to them at some point.  To us, they merely stopped listening, of course."



JamesRottnek,

It sounds right that:
"the general view of Orthodox Jews... is that prophecy can only take place when the majority of Jews in the world are gathered together in Israel.  So they do in fact believe that prophecy has completely stopped", but it doesn't answer whether or not prophecy could necessarily take place just because the majority were gathered there.
 
After all, soon after the time of the Maccabees, I assume that a majority were still gathered there.

Regards.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #130 on: March 12, 2011, 12:10:29 AM »
WHETHER THE PATRIARCH COULD ATTEND THE SERVICE

Jetavan,

You had asked to define the term "praying with". It's kind of a vague term. After all, Christians around the world are praying with eachother, in a way.

YOU ASKED:
Quote
What if a Jewish prayer simply states something like "Hear O Israel! Our Lord is One," without going into a rejection of particularly Christian beliefs? Would it be OK for a Christian to pray with the Jew in that instance?
I think the answer is Yes. On one hand it would go against a certain tradition of avoiding it, apparently. But in my opinion, it's also possible to find a position saying it's ok, since the early Christians appeared to pray with Jews such prayers.


jnorm888,

I somewhat remember reading that in Orthodoxy, lighting a candle is an act of prayer. But like I said, this view of lighting a candle might be a spiritual interpretation of some kind not apply for purposes of looking at a rule about praying with nonChristians and/or heretics, especially if the rule was one that encompassed Western Christianity, which lacked such a view about lighting candles.


deusveritasest,

You said that:

Quote
The Patriarch:

1. Was in a synagogue
2. During a prayer service of the Jewish
3. He lit a candle at the menorah, that sort of act being understood as an act of prayer in Orthodox spirituality

The only piece missing is actually seeing his lips moving along with the heathens.

And I don't think it would get him off the hook even if he did not.

Also, while lighting a candle is prayer in Orthodox spirituality, it may not be for purposes of a tradition that would be against praying with nonChristians. So it seems like he might not be on the hook for praying with nonChristians, if such a thing is banned.

Seeing lips move would be unnecessary if he stated that he was praying silently, but it sounds like he wasn't praying with words, which would mean that he didn't go against such a tradition.

If he tried to imply that Judaism is "just as good as" Christianity, then it could be antichrist like you say. I highly doubt that.



Ebenezer,

Hello, it is interesting hearing your views about Hannukah, because I think you have some background in Judaism.

I think it's better to understand the roots of our faith, which appears to include Hannukah from the 1st century AD.

NO, JUST "because this high up guy hungout with some Jews and lit a candle, suddenly him and all those who follow him are antichrists?" After all, most of the early Christians were Jews who lit candles. I hope you can appreciate my humor here, Ebenezer.

THE "BIG DEAL" is that it's unusual in Orthodox tradition for the last several centuries to have leaders attending and participating in religious services conducted by non-Christians.

Feeling that it's a big deal isn't anti-semitic, because the feelings shouldn't be ethnic feelings, but rather reactions on an inter-religious level.

NO, as you suggest, he didn't "say for his parishioners to celebrate chanukkah as frum Jews do, each and every time the 25th of Kislev comes round?", Nor "Did he say anything contrary to Christian Orthodoxy?"

I REALLY DO DOUBT he did "anything wrong", because the early Christians prayed in the Temple and synagogues.

I AGREE THAT "it seems like him and this Mufti, were there as a sign that the Christian and Muslim community supports the existance of Serbian Jews and that they should be free to do so without restriction just like Orthodox Christian should be free to celebrate the Christian holidays and just like Muslims should be free to celebrate their holidays as well."

IF YOU "can understand that perhaps according to orthodox Christian tradition he did something wrong", then at least some of this criticism of the Patriarch shouldn't seem "a tad unnecessary and to be quite frank, offensive." That is, if he took a big step and might have done something wrong in it, then proposing criticisms wouldn't be unnecessary or offensive.

ALSO, I DON'T WANT YOU TO FEEL OFFENDED by discussions about Christianity and Judaism.

Shalom.



Irish Hermit,

YOU MADE A GOOD POINT SHOWING THE PROBLEM with accepting the Apostolic Canons as absolute law:
Quote
In that case you must include 1 and 2 Clement among the canonical books of the New Testment and you must remove the Book of Revelation and several of the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament..  Apostolic Canon 85.

I understand thate the Ecumenical Councils did not accept the Apostolic Canons in their entirety but this was done by the Greeks only.  The holy Church of Rome was more selective and accepted only a certain number of them.  Can the canons rejected by one of the five Patriarchates, the Patriarchate which held the primacy, be counted as of ecumenical authority binding on the Universal Catholic Church?  <scratches head..>

I think that if the Roman church and Greek church both accepted certain provisions of the Apostolic Canons, then those provisions would apply as our canon law. But other provisions couldn't be considered to be accepted by the Ecumenical Councils, and thus at least couldn't be considered somehow infallible.

Plus, as you pointed out, the Church has obviously chosen to accept the Book of Revelation rather than accept the C.o.H.A.'s rule about them. So it appears that the Church put its choice of the scriptures over the C.o.H.A., even when it adopted the C.o.H.A.

In my mind, this suggests that the Greek Church accepted the C.o.H.A. as persuasive authority, rather than as an absolute law. After all, the Orthodox prefer to have a more open attitude about legalisms and doctrines than in Western Christianity.

You made a good point that the Council of Trullo, which approved the C.o.H.A. wasn't accepted by the pleroma of the Universal Church. Although I am not sure what pleroma means. :)

You pointed out that Rome rejected many of them. But it isn't clear to me whether they accepted the ones banning praying in synagogues.

YOU MENTIONED:
Quote
Jews will not allow non-Jews to participate actively in their ceremonies and prayers.  Clearly they do not see the lighting of these special Hanukkah candles as a prayer.

if memory serves, the Grand Mufti also lit a candle and other people with whom the Jews would certainly refuse to pray.
Father Bless

However it seems possible that in Orthodoxy it could be considered a prayer while in Judaism it isn't.

You also made a good point that when the C.o.H.A. excludes Clement, it is just the Constitutions of Clement, while explicitly putting in the "New Testament" the Epistles of Clement, which our Bibles lack.

Also, I noted the claim in the C.o.H.A. that they are by the Apostles. In my mind this probably means either those who considered themselves Apostles but weren't the first generation of Apostles, or that it was handed down by them. Either way, I doubt that it is composed directly by the original apostles of the New Testament, because it contradicts the early view on heretic rebaptism, as well as contradicting the original apostles' practice of praying in synagogues.

The words "and the Acts of us, the Apostles" in them only seem to weaken their authority in my mind.


Fr. Anastasios,

Thanks for mentioning "that the Orthodox Church commemorates the Maccabees on August 1." It shows a connection our Church's roots among the ancient Judeans.

YOU CITED FROM THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES:

Quote
Canon LXX.

If any bishop, presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the list of clergy, keeps fast or festival with the Jews, or receives from them any of the gifts of their feasts, as unleavened bread, any such things, let him be deposed. If he be a layman, let him be excommunicated.

Canon LXXI.

If any Christian brings oil into a temple of the heathen or into a synagogue of the Jews at their feast, or lights lamps, let him be excommunicated.


A big problem with using the Canons of the Apostles as a Legal Rule over Orthodox is that alot of scholars apparently question its authenticity. I think that it isn't considered in force by the Roman Catholic Church for this reason. One of the problems I remember is that it demands rebaptism of heretic Christians. This means that it probably didn't come from the Apostles or the church collectively, because in the first few centuries, the most common, and apparently original practice, was to accept heretic baptism if it was Trinitarian.

So i highly doubt that
"the Apostolic Canons were actually written by the Apostles, or they were a later codification of teachings passed down...they originated with the Apostles, their teachings are in the "stream" of Apostolic teaching,"

SINCE I THINK ROME DIDN'T ADOPT THEM, I doubt "they were accepted by later Councils" in the Councils' proper, ecumenical sense.

Plus, while I believe you that they "are included in the Pedalion and other canonical collections", I still have doubt about their legal force, since the Russian church, as well as the practice from the first few centuries on heretic rebaptism opposed the Canons of the Apostles.

I SOMEWHAT AGREE that "They reflect the faith of the Church.  If you think that you or modern, non-Orthodox scholars can opine their validity away, then you are basically putting yourself or them above the God-inspired Elders and Church Fathers, who were in deification and received the teaching from the Holy Spirit."

But if the Church, or at least big parts of it, disagree with parts of the Canons of the Apostles, they don't entirely and exactly reflect its faith, and opining away their validity doesn't put the opiners above all the Church fathers.

IF IT WAS SIMPLY A SITUATION where we have clear Church Laws against lighting lamps and attending synagogues, demanding deposition if violated, then OK, the Patriarch should be deposed unless there is an exception, like perhaps a good reason for ekonomia. But I am doubtful that such an absolute rule exists, not least because the early Christians worshipped in synagogues.

You're right that:
Quote
The Apostles did many things in the early days of the Church which we would not do now. There are no more Apostles on Earth. The early days of the Church were quite charismatic, reflecting a different reality. That being said, it's not like the Patriarch went in there and preached Christ as the ONLY way to salvation...the Apostles went into the Temple and taught Christ, and were chased out because of it.
Although there are those designated as "equal to the apostles". Plus, I'm sure that there were times when the apostles were in synagogues and the Temple and weren't directly teaching Christ there. Plus, we have the example where Christ walked in the Temple at Hannukah.

It sounds true that:
Quote
If you sense a difference between what you read in the New Testament and what you read in the canons, the alleged discrepancy can most likely be linked to your level of understanding, and not some insurmountable conflict which would prompt us to throw out the Apostolic canons.
because they were written to be mostly in accordance with early Christianity, and plus my understanding is very limited. Plus, if the canons have been accepted for many centuries, then it's less likely we would throw them out. However, where the discrepancy appears clear and strong, then it seems we should consider how much force we should give them, as in absolute or persuasive force.

Demanding a Patriarch be deposed sounds proscriptive, although I agree: "they state a fact: Jews deny Christ God.  One must ask himself: why would he want to pray with someone who denies Christ is God?"

In this case, if the answer is "to promote and create sympathy for Christianity," then I have some doubt that the canon is simply "seen to be reflecting the reality of the situation, which is that Christians are not Jews, and Jews are not Christians."

I think you are right that "What message is being sent when we pray with Jews in their synagogues? That we accept that they are ok as they are? The Church does not teach this."
It is one possible message, but another message could be that Orthodox like Jews and that we find this service to be good.

The books "Spiritual Dimensions of the Holy Canons by Dr. Lewis Patsavos and An Overview of Orthodox Canon Law by Metropolitan Panteleimon of Rodopoulos" sound good.

Father Bless



Salpy,

From your mention about Georgia's Patriarch singing a prayer with a rabbi and lighting a menorah, it sounds like attending Judaic services is a somewhat acceptable, although still rare custom in Orthodoxy.

I would agree that these things are viewed as gestures of goodwill, rather than strongly serious prayer services.  That could explain why the Georgian Patriarch was willing to do Hanukkah with a rabbi, when on the 90th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide he was unwilling to participate in a requiem with the Armenians.

In my view, praying in, actively participating in, and attending a Hannukah service is still somewhat serious.



Fr. George,

It is nice writing with you.

You wrote:
According to your aforementioned Ap. 85, they are not to be published, "on account of the mystical things in them."  So this is a spurious line of thought.
I want to add that the words that "they are not to be published, "on account of the mystical things in them."" sounds funny like they are wizardry and have to be kept secret.!

You made a good point that Revelations and the Apocrypha was added by later Fathers and Councils, and not prohibited by the Apostles' Canons. Although on the other hand, hypothetically, if the Canons said that no more books should be added, then they would be prohibited.

Sure, I "believe that there is more to the development of the canon of scripture than just one canon," if you say so :)

You also made a good point that:
"if your local church accepts them, then you're bound by them.  If the PoM has ratified them at some point, and they haven't been repealed, then you're bound to them aren't you, Fr. Ambrose?  Unless you don't follow your own Church's canonical legislation, that is."

If the Serbian Church ratified the canons, but an Ecumenical Council didnt because of Rome's different position, then it would be a matter of the Serbian Patriarch disobeying his own legislation, which wouldn't be infallible, I think.

I'm alittle surprised by your writing that:
"Yes, there are canons that were essentially worthless within a generation or three from when they were written; they served their purpose for a short time, and when that purpose was exhausted they fell into disuse."
It seems more likely that one canon would have as much authority as the next. And to say "it served it's purpose" should mean that it should be repealed for it to cease operation.

But then I don't know much about canon law. Still, making a standard about whether something served its purpose would seem to make things more arbitrary. I could invent an excuse, for example, that the provision was passed to prevent the risk of social confusion at a time when European society was closed, autocratic, and mostly illiterate, and Christianity was weak. I would then add that the purpose has fallen into disuse in secular societies, pointing to mixed heterodox marriages, as well as the 2 Patriachs' participation in Judaic services.

I believe you that "one would be hard-pressed in this case to prove that the canon in question has been disregarded for so long; it is a purely modern thing, from what I can tell".

But I have some doubt that this means that "thus the Church needs to take a stand one way or another - and until it does, then the relevant, accepted, and Spirit-guided relevant canons still apply", because it would mean that simple disuse and disregard isn't a valid way to show a canon doesn't apply. Otherwise you would have a situation where after 100 years of disregard, the canon wouldn't be valid, and yet 10 years into that disregard, those who disregarded it were actually violating the laws of the Church.

On the other hand, I agree: praying in synagogues is an important issue, and clarity is important, so the Church should take a stand on it.

You suggested "arguing that the canon isn't applicable (i.e. that the ceremony is political and not religious, etc.) rather than trying to cut off a branch of our canonical tradition", but I believe that the ceremony was religious.

When you write "My responses below are tempered by the following question: Has he done wrong?  And the answer can only come from the Holy Spirit through a Synod.", I think you mean "And the definitive answer...", which makes sense to me.

You noted about Robb's words about social changes in modern society:

Quote
Let's not over-romanticize the past; in the early Christian era (when the Apostolic canons are said to have been written), there was a pluralistic, non-judgmental approach to religion in the world - which is why Judaism, and it's "Our God is the only God" attitude, was such a pot-stirrer.  Even in the very early Christian Imperial era, there were still many pagans amongst the population, and thus not as much popular condemnation of paganism as wrong.
Two points to make is that in such a climate there was a danger of being tempted into paganism if the church was loose. Furthermore, religion at that time was tied to the state and so a state religion with a base in Judaism, which you said was exclusivist, would be more likely to act in a more closed way.

I think you showed though that the social differences in time allow one to make arguments for or against.

You asked about Irish Hermit's quote ("two Epistles of Clement; and the Constitutions dedicated to you, the bishops, by me, Clement, in eight books, which is not appropriate to make public before all,
because of the mysteries contained in them; and the Acts of us, the Apostles.
"):
"Do you have a source for this (because it has more semicolons than I remember)?  The versions of the canon that I've read don't have a semicolon between 1 and 2 Clement and the Constitutions."

It's a good question where he got the quote. But the semicolon looks like it would be in the right place for 2 reasons:
(1) the non-public are the mysterious ones, and 1&2 Clement aren't mysterious, Irish Hermit says.
(2) the grammar says "eight books, which is not appropriate". The term "which" appears to refer to the preceding noun, the eight books, rather than the several preceding phrases.
So even if there wasn't a semicolon, the one above still gives the correct idea from the sentence construction.



Robb,

I agree with you that:

Quote
These Canons were written before our politically correct day and age.  At the time nobody who held different religious beliefs would want to pray with eachother or hold joint worship services together, but its just the opposite today when religious leaders feel obliged to worship together and affirm the "value" o0f each others belief systems.
We live in a much more sensitive era then did the Apostles and Church Fathers.  Back then people had no problem proclaiming their own faith to be true and all those who did not hold it (And even most of those who did) Were damned for all eternity if they did not embrace that faith.
For right or wrong, better or worse, people these days just have trouble swallowing such an insensitive and anti pluralistic vision of things (Even most religious leaders apparently).

BTW, You have a cool looking avatar, who is it?



Cizinec,

I feel the same way you do that: "St. Paul did it.  Holy cow, almost all the apostles did it.  If some canon condemns the apostles, I'm pretty sure you're either misreading the canons or the canons are wrong.  Since the canons are probably right, where do you suppose that leaves y'all?"

Unfortunately, the "Canons of the Apostles" are pretty clear on the issue.

You're right that:
Quote
Lighting a candle isn't always a prayer.  I can light a candle because the room is dark.  I can light a candle because I need to light something bigger on fire.  I can light a candle to represent family who have died or soldiers in Afghanistan or whatever else (it's symbolic, but not *all* symbolism is prayer).


But I somewhat disagree that:
Quote
if it *was* prayer, it was *his* prayer and he was not led in prayer by someone of a different faith.  Have any of you been in the military?  If you have access to a Catholic Church, you go light candles there.  About the only place I wouldn't go in to light a candle so that *I* can pray is a mosque.
, because he was led in lighting the candle by someone of a different faith. In the military, you wouldn't have to light a candle in a nonOrthodox church. And I I'm not sure about a mosque, because they do worship God. Some mosques, like the Temple Mount and Cave of the Patriarchs are claimed or shared with other Monotheists for example.

You're right that "Indeed, the Jews could scandalize:  Christian leads prayer in synagogue!"

However, I don't know the answer to your riddle:
Quote
I swear, some of you are busy bodies always on the prowl for a . . . I can't say that word.  Starts with a "b" and rhymes with . . . oh forget it.

I see your sarcasm when you write:
"Yes, and I believe this was Christ's approach as well.  Keep away from prostitutes, tax collectors, those nasty Samaritans . . . Our Lord wouldn't have wanted to cause a scandal."
I think the point you made is that Church leaders shouldn't relate to followers of Judaism as if they are "unclean". That's true, and I believe that few of the posters here would have such an attitude.

Also, the relationship to a synagogue is in my mind here much more like Christ's visit to the Temple at the Feast of Dedication.

Actually, I'm not completely "sure Patriarch Irinej didn't go to show the equality of Judaism to Christianity", because he didn't tell us why he went!

Carry on. :)



Android,

I share your attitude when you write:

Quote
i personally find it sad that so many self-described Christians abandon love so readily and work themselves into a froth...behaving exactly as pharisees...all while insisting on their own Orthodoxy.

lets not get into a discussion of all the canons that all of us violate repeatedly simply by existing in modern society.

The canons aren't laws that get applied to all and sundry as laymen see fit. They are guidelines for Bishops to use in their pastoral care of us (not necessarily so) rational sheep. So, unless you're a Bishop, put away your copy of the Pedalion, and stop applying it to other people.

my understanding of the situation is that hanukah was over and the particular event that the Patriarch attended was essentially a secular commemoration...not part of the service itself.

it is shameful that people speak of deposing or excommunicating bishops and place the law (guidelines, really) over love and humility.

how people fail to see their parsing of the canons and overreacting as exactly what Christ condemned in the pharisees is beyond me.

i suppose it's just another opportunity for people to cry "ecumenism!" "heresy!" "anti-Christ!" and "schism!" when confronted with a mere act of love and expression of coexistence in a region where there is a strong and honorable tradition of that.

However, I will note ironically that in passing you stereotyped the critics of attending the synagogue as "pharisees"- those that managed synagogues in 1st-century Judaism.

You're right that we often violate the C.o.H.A. in modern society and must put love first before restrictive customary rules. However, in my mind the discussion is also about understanding Orthodoxy's place in society, and how it relates to other religions. Interfaith relations are an important issue and the Patriarch's participation was an important event. We must take an honest clear look at them, and understand what is going on. If love and caring directs us, we could even change the canons.

Even if the canons are guideposts, then it is still important to see what the guideposts say and compare ourselves with them.

It sounds like you know more than I do about it when you write:
Quote
my understanding of the situation is that hanukah was over and the particular event that the Patriarch attended was essentially a secular commemoration...not part of the service itself

However, if Hanukkah is a religious holiday, it's hard to see how lighting the synagogue's menorah afterwards was completely secular, that is, wasn't of any religious significance. Still, if it wasn't related to Hannukah, then it wasn't clear to us what service it was. And anyway, our interfaith relations and prayer are still an important issue.

Peace
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 12:12:35 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #131 on: March 12, 2011, 12:36:21 AM »
Do you think anyone is going to read your posts? Cut them down a bit, jeeze!

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #132 on: March 12, 2011, 07:02:45 AM »
Do you think anyone is going to read your posts? Cut them down a bit, jeeze!

Rude! I read them.

What's it to you how long Rakovsky's posts are?

Seems clear he was away for a while and he's catching up on a topic that interests him.

There are too many 'Forum Police' around here I think.

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Offline Father H

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #133 on: March 22, 2011, 06:01:44 PM »
Do you think anyone is going to read your posts? Cut them down a bit, jeeze!

It was a long post, but at least it was thorough.  You gotta give him that. 

Offline Father H

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #134 on: March 22, 2011, 06:04:03 PM »
^And besides, he took the time to answer all the responses.  How many of us do that?

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #135 on: January 04, 2012, 10:52:27 PM »
I guess nothing ever came of this, either?
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #136 on: January 07, 2012, 04:19:56 PM »
what were you expecting?

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #137 on: August 06, 2012, 01:52:24 AM »
what were you expecting?

Some indication that the Orthodox world cares.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #138 on: August 06, 2012, 01:55:03 AM »
what were you expecting?

Some indication that the Orthodox world cares.

Perhaps they are covering their Father's nakedness. Not everything has to end in fireworks.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #139 on: August 06, 2012, 01:58:25 AM »
what were you expecting?

Some indication that the Orthodox world cares.

Perhaps they are covering their Father's nakedness. Not everything has to end in fireworks.

No fireworks, maybe just an apology or something.
Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #140 on: August 06, 2012, 02:02:42 AM »
what were you expecting?

Some indication that the Orthodox world cares.

Perhaps they are covering their Father's nakedness. Not everything has to end in fireworks.

No fireworks, maybe just an apology or something.

Do we know that nothing came of it? I don't know, I'm not familiar enough with the situation. Maybe he was sorry and they had compassion on him by not making him say more than ... well anything, something, I don't know. I probably shouldn't have posted since I don't know enough info.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #141 on: August 06, 2012, 02:05:13 AM »
B) "along with the Grand Mufti" - at least now there is an easy showing that Islam can be fully tolerant and peaceful, and an easy reply to any claim that Islam is somehow by nature a threat.

Nonesense. Or is Christianity "inclusive" by nature, because the Episcopal Church is? Individual Muslims can be tolerant, but the authoritative texts of Islam, the Quran, the Hadith and the Sira (biography) of Muhammad do not teach tolerance, but quite some threatening things.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #142 on: August 06, 2012, 02:44:02 AM »
NVM!

Anyone who wants to hear what I have to say on the matter can send me a PM.
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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #143 on: August 06, 2012, 03:12:02 AM »
B) "along with the Grand Mufti" - at least now there is an easy showing that Islam can be fully tolerant and peaceful, and an easy reply to any claim that Islam is somehow by nature a threat.

Nonesense. Or is Christianity "inclusive" by nature, because the Episcopal Church is? Individual Muslims can be tolerant, but the authoritative texts of Islam, the Quran, the Hadith and the Sira (biography) of Muhammad do not teach tolerance, but quite some threatening things.

Well how many of Muslims obeys those texts? Why many Muslim men don't have long beards? Why there isn't a caliphate?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 03:35:45 AM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #144 on: August 06, 2012, 03:53:05 AM »
Well how many of Muslims obeys those texts?

Obviously enough of them to create political and social trouble around the world.

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #145 on: August 06, 2012, 04:00:51 AM »
Well how many of Muslims obeys those texts?

Obviously enough of them to create political and social trouble around the world.

I don't know whether it is more about obeying Islamic texts rather than some other factors. Islam is used as a political weapon rather than politics are used as an Islamic weapon.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #146 on: August 06, 2012, 08:40:01 AM »
Well how many of Muslims obeys those texts?

Obviously enough of them to create political and social trouble around the world.

I don't know whether it is more about obeying Islamic texts rather than some other factors. Islam is used as a political weapon rather than politics are used as an Islamic weapon.
All the Islamic states pretty much go all in the same direction.  Which isn't the right direction.  There are moderate sects, but far off the mainstream and far away from power for the most part.

In Egypt, the Islamists might be only 10%, but over half of the Muslim population defers to them to define Islam.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 08:41:23 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline Fr Spyridon

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #147 on: August 06, 2012, 08:46:24 AM »
*Facepalm*

I think His Beatitude is well aware of these canons so He was well aware that this will cause controversy. I'm sorry for my Western prejudices that are based on harldy any factual basis but if there is some anti-Semitism in Serbia it's a good thing to show special respect to Jews in Serbia not just because they are Human beings and icons of God and loved by God but also because in order to show a good example about how to be a proper Christian to his own faithful. I'm hoping that this is just a some gesture of good will on His Beatitude's part. However praying in a non-Christian service is just inappropriate. So he was correct in showing respect and good will to the Jews but incorrect in (alleged) praying in a non-Christian service. And even his this was just a symbolic act that was not intended as a prayer I think His Beatitude should have understood that it will be understanded as a prayer. He could have shown his respect, Christian love and good will in some other way. I think the Jews are the first people that would understand if His Beatitude said that he can't attend non-Orthodox service because of his tradition because Jew's own traditions are as strict as ours. Or even a little stricter.

EDIT: Wow. I never would have believed that I'd write such a politically over-correct message.  ;D

It is not an act of love to encourage someone to falsely believe either by word or action. It may be "nice" in the world's eyes, but by praying with false believers or heretics or any other description one chooses to use for people who do not accept the Orthodox faith it is giving them the impression that we approves of their beliefs and so acknowledge them to somehow to be true. In so doing we are leading others astray. It is an act of love to instruct others out of false belief however uncomfortable or unacceptable to the world it may be.

Quoting tags editted - MK.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 01:35:59 PM by Michał Kalina »

Offline Alpo

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #148 on: August 06, 2012, 12:21:33 PM »
Well how many of Muslims obeys those texts?

Obviously enough of them to create political and social trouble around the world.

I don't know whether it is more about obeying Islamic texts rather than some other factors. Islam is used as a political weapon rather than politics are used as an Islamic weapon.
All the Islamic states pretty much go all in the same direction.  Which isn't the right direction.  There are moderate sects, but far off the mainstream and far away from power for the most part.

In Egypt, the Islamists might be only 10%, but over half of the Muslim population defers to them to define Islam.

What do you mean by "moderate sect"? I'm not sure what "moderate" means in Islamic context since I've heard some barbarian things done or said by so-called moderate Muslims.

While you are probably pretty knowledgeable about present situation in Islamic countries I find it hard to believe that there will be new Wahhabist/Islamist states. While you don't claim that this is what many Western critics of Islam seem to be saying. All I am trying to say that while situation is bad and while Islam is a heresy and a prejudicous system there's more to Islam than Wahhabism. They are not that monolithic.

It is not an act of love to encourage someone to falsely believe either by word or action. It may be "nice" in the world's eyes, but by praying with false believers or heretics or any other description one chooses to use for people who do not accept the Orthodox faith it is giving them the impression that we approves of their beliefs and so acknowledge them to somehow to be true. In so doing we are leading others astray. It is an act of love to instruct others out of false belief however uncomfortable or unacceptable to the world it may be.

Agreed and that is part of what I tried to say. I just wanted to give some benefit of doubt to His Holiness.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 12:23:40 PM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #149 on: August 06, 2012, 01:37:29 PM »
B) "along with the Grand Mufti" - at least now there is an easy showing that Islam can be fully tolerant and peaceful, and an easy reply to any claim that Islam is somehow by nature a threat.

Nonesense. Or is Christianity "inclusive" by nature, because the Episcopal Church is? Individual Muslims can be tolerant, but the authoritative texts of Islam, the Quran, the Hadith and the Sira (biography) of Muhammad do not teach tolerance, but quite some threatening things.

I suppose you think Judaism is also intolerant and threatening.
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Offline Maria

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #150 on: August 06, 2012, 02:23:47 PM »
It is not an act of love to encourage someone to falsely believe either by word or action. It may be "nice" in the world's eyes, but by praying with false believers or heretics or any other description one chooses to use for people who do not accept the Orthodox faith it is giving them the impression that we approves of their beliefs and so acknowledge them to somehow to be true. In so doing we are leading others astray. It is an act of love to instruct others out of false belief however uncomfortable or unacceptable to the world it may be.

Good points.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Serbian Patriarch Irinei has celebrated Hannukah in a synagogue
« Reply #151 on: August 06, 2012, 03:59:41 PM »
I suppose you think Judaism is also intolerant and threatening.

Well yes, but only in the Holy Land. They couldnt care less about other countries, and they dont proselytize amongst non-Jews. But I do see a rise of Jewish fundamentalism within Israel. The current military service debate shows how much it threatens the social balance.