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Offline JLatimer

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John 6, a little at a time
« on: October 28, 2010, 02:53:16 PM »
Let's examine this chapter, a few verses at a time, beginning at verse 1.

Quote from: John 6:1-4 (NKJV)
After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias. 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased. 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples. 4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.

These verses give us the context for what follows.

Firstly, the place: a mountain near the Sea of Galilee. Jesus "went up on the mountain" - this makes us think of Moses ascending Mt. Sinai, and thus also of this:

Quote from: John 1:14-17 (NKJV)
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.'" 16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

and this:

Quote from: John 5:39-47 (NKJV)
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?

among other passages.

Also, the time: Jesus has just shown His power by healing the diseased (verse 2).

Quote from: John 4:43-54 (NKJV)
So Jesus came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman whose son was sick at Capernaum. 47 When he heard that Jesus had come out of Judea into Galilee, he went to Him and implored Him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. 48 Then Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe." 49 The nobleman said to Him, "Sir, come down before my child dies!" 
50 Jesus said to him, "Go your way; your son lives." So the man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him, and he went his way. 51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him and told him, saying, "Your son lives!" 52 Then he inquired of them the hour when he got better. And they said to him, "Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him." 53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour in which Jesus said to him, "Your son lives." And he himself believed, and his whole household. 54 This again is the second sign Jesus did when He had come out of Judea into Galilee.

Notice how St. John makes sure to remind us of Jesus' first miracle - the metamorphosis of water into wine at the wedding at Cana - before describing His second miracle - the healing of the nobleman's son. This implies a connection between the two miracles. 

Quote from: John 5:1-9 (NKJV)
After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew, Bethesda, having five porches. 3 In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed, waiting for the moving of the water. 4 For an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and stirred up the water; then whoever stepped in first, after the stirring of the water, was made well of whatever disease he had. 5 Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, "Do you want to be made well?" 7 The sick man answered Him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me." 8 Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your bed and walk." 9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath.

Jesus has the power to heal by His words. He says, "Your son lives", and the boy is healed, "Take up your bed and walk", and the man takes up bed and walks. This is because Jesus is the Word of God - by Whom all things were made (1:3) - incarnate (1:14).

The Jews had seen these "signs", but still they refused to believe in Jesus as the Son of God.

Quote from: John 5:18 (NKJV)
Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Jesus had clearly expressed His equality with the Father, so that the Jews understood it, but they refused to believe it. 

Finally, it was near the Passover, connecting this passage to the Exodus, and to the Last Supper, Crucifixion, and Resurrection narratives in all four Gospels.
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2010, 10:32:19 PM »
Let's examine this chapter, a few verses at a time, beginning at verse 1.

Quote from: John 6:1-4 (NKJV)
After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias. 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased. 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples. 4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.

These verses give us the context for what follows.

Firstly, the place: a mountain near the Sea of Galilee. Jesus "went up on the mountain" - this makes us think of Moses ascending Mt. Sinai, and thus also of this:

Quote from: John 1:14-17 (NKJV)
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.'" 16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

and this:

Quote from: John 5:39-47 (NKJV)
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?

among other passages.

Also, the time: Jesus has just shown His power by healing the diseased (verse 2).

Quote from: John 4:43-54 (NKJV)
So Jesus came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman whose son was sick at Capernaum. 47 When he heard that Jesus had come out of Judea into Galilee, he went to Him and implored Him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. 48 Then Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe." 49 The nobleman said to Him, "Sir, come down before my child dies!"
50 Jesus said to him, "Go your way; your son lives." So the man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him, and he went his way. 51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him and told him, saying, "Your son lives!" 52 Then he inquired of them the hour when he got better. And they said to him, "Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him." 53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour in which Jesus said to him, "Your son lives." And he himself believed, and his whole household. 54 This again is the second sign Jesus did when He had come out of Judea into Galilee.

Notice how St. John makes sure to remind us of Jesus' first miracle - the metamorphosis of water into wine at the wedding at Cana - before describing His second miracle - the healing of the nobleman's son. This implies a connection between the two miracles.

Quote from: John 5:1-9 (NKJV)
After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew, Bethesda, having five porches. 3 In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed, waiting for the moving of the water. 4 For an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and stirred up the water; then whoever stepped in first, after the stirring of the water, was made well of whatever disease he had. 5 Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, "Do you want to be made well?" 7 The sick man answered Him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me." 8 Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your bed and walk." 9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath.

Jesus has the power to heal by His words. He says, "Your son lives", and the boy is healed, "Take up your bed and walk", and the man takes up bed and walks. This is because Jesus is the Word of God - by Whom all things were made (1:3) - incarnate (1:14).

The Jews had seen these "signs", but still they refused to believe in Jesus as the Son of God.

Quote from: John 5:18 (NKJV)
Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Jesus had clearly expressed His equality with the Father, so that the Jews understood it, but they refused to believe it.

Finally, it was near the Passover, connecting this passage to the Exodus, and to the Last Supper, Crucifixion, and Resurrection narratives in all four Gospels.

Your point was buried in the irrelevant...I'm certain you were trying to say something, and just as certain I lack the patience to pick it out from all the irrelevant texts which, to you say one thing, to me likely something quite different.

A word of advice, humans don't see the same thing, unless one is careful to point out precisely what they are looking at.

A lot of my apologetic suffers from quoting too much scripture, where I assume people saw what I saw....they usually don't.

I've since noticed something in scripture, when Christ or His apostles cite scripture, they only quote the precise relevant words, not the whole text...

We will both communicate much better, when we copy their fine example.

I thought you were going to discuss the Eucharist, precisely. I'm willing to do that, I am not willing to wade through reams of irrelevant texts.

Make your point directly, or I won't bother this thread again.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 10:35:21 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2010, 10:41:54 PM »
You are being invited to join in a discussion, Alfred - why respond in such a rude way?  :(
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2010, 11:09:05 PM »
You are being invited to join in a discussion, Alfred - why respond in such a rude way?  :(

I don't see rude there, only friendly advice.

He could learn from you, you say what you want in a sentence or two, that is outstanding. Brevity is the essence of good communication.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Melodist

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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2010, 12:23:30 AM »
Let's examine this chapter, a few verses at a time, beginning at verse 1.

Quote from: John 6:1-4 (NKJV)
After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias. 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased. 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples. 4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.

These verses give us the context for what follows.

Firstly, the place: a mountain near the Sea of Galilee. Jesus "went up on the mountain" - this makes us think of Moses ascending Mt. Sinai, and thus also of this:

Quote from: John 1:14-17 (NKJV)
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.'" 16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

and this:

Quote from: John 5:39-47 (NKJV)
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?

among other passages.

Also, the time: Jesus has just shown His power by healing the diseased (verse 2).

Quote from: John 4:43-54 (NKJV)
So Jesus came again to Cana of Galilee where He had made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman whose son was sick at Capernaum. 47 When he heard that Jesus had come out of Judea into Galilee, he went to Him and implored Him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. 48 Then Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe." 49 The nobleman said to Him, "Sir, come down before my child dies!"
50 Jesus said to him, "Go your way; your son lives." So the man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him, and he went his way. 51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him and told him, saying, "Your son lives!" 52 Then he inquired of them the hour when he got better. And they said to him, "Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him." 53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour in which Jesus said to him, "Your son lives." And he himself believed, and his whole household. 54 This again is the second sign Jesus did when He had come out of Judea into Galilee.

Notice how St. John makes sure to remind us of Jesus' first miracle - the metamorphosis of water into wine at the wedding at Cana - before describing His second miracle - the healing of the nobleman's son. This implies a connection between the two miracles.

Quote from: John 5:1-9 (NKJV)
After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew, Bethesda, having five porches. 3 In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed, waiting for the moving of the water. 4 For an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and stirred up the water; then whoever stepped in first, after the stirring of the water, was made well of whatever disease he had. 5 Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, "Do you want to be made well?" 7 The sick man answered Him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me." 8 Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your bed and walk." 9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath.

Jesus has the power to heal by His words. He says, "Your son lives", and the boy is healed, "Take up your bed and walk", and the man takes up bed and walks. This is because Jesus is the Word of God - by Whom all things were made (1:3) - incarnate (1:14).

The Jews had seen these "signs", but still they refused to believe in Jesus as the Son of God.

Quote from: John 5:18 (NKJV)
Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Jesus had clearly expressed His equality with the Father, so that the Jews understood it, but they refused to believe it.

Finally, it was near the Passover, connecting this passage to the Exodus, and to the Last Supper, Crucifixion, and Resurrection narratives in all four Gospels.

Your point was buried in the irrelevant...I'm certain you were trying to say something, and just as certain I lack the patience to pick it out from all the irrelevant texts which, to you say one thing, to me likely something quite different.

A word of advice, humans don't see the same thing, unless one is careful to point out precisely what they are looking at.

A lot of my apologetic suffers from quoting too much scripture, where I assume people saw what I saw....they usually don't.

I've since noticed something in scripture, when Christ or His apostles cite scripture, they only quote the precise relevant words, not the whole text...

We will both communicate much better, when we copy their fine example.

I thought you were going to discuss the Eucharist, precisely. I'm willing to do that, I am not willing to wade through reams of irrelevant texts.

Make your point directly, or I won't bother this thread again.

Without re-copying everything, I will say that I noticed a few things. Going up on the mountain is a sign of His Divinity and authority. The Passover ties the passage into Christ's death and resurrection which, according to Scripture, we proclaim as often as we receive communion. The miracles alluded to are all done by Christ's words, which ties into the reality of Christ's words "This is my Body...".
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2010, 08:09:58 AM »
Christ Himself stated what "eat my flesh...drink my blood" means:

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (Joh 6:30-35 KJV)

That this is Christ's meaning is confirmed by Peter's interpretation of Christ's words:


63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
 (Joh 6:63-69 KJV)

Compare Verse 63 with vvs 68f
" thou hast the words of eternal life" = " the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
 (Joh 6:69 KJV)

The flesh or covering of the Incarnate Christ profits nothing, believing (=ingesting) the truth about Him clothed by the flesh imparts eternal life.


Context confirms this, the theme throughout is believing in Christ, the symbols of flesh and blood are meant to convey one must ingest Christ entire, not just His fleshly outer appearance, but inner Spirit of life incarnate in the flesh, for eternal life:

24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You come here?"
 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
 27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,`He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
 32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33 "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
 40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
 41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says,`I have come down from heaven '?"
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
 47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
 48 "I am the bread of life.
 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
 (Joh 6:23-71 NKJ)



It is unhistorical to presume Christ is speaking of the Eucharist, it didn't exist when Christ spoke these words, and He clearly expects these disciples understand His true meaning. That would be impossible is Christ is referring to the Eucharist.

 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

These ate of the loaves and fishes, and were satisfied yet were demanding greater signs of Christ's authority (John 6:26-28). Jesus questions if even an ascent into heaven would be enough for these to rightly interpret His words (vs 62). Any other Rabbi would have been given the benefit of the doubt when teaching a "hard saying", and its figurative sense would have been sought. But not these disciples, they were not of Christ's sheep:

 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
 (Joh 6:35-37 KJV)

Their insistence He spoke of cannibalism was an excuse to not believe.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 (Joh 6:41-45 KJV)

Christ gave them one last appeal to seek the correct interpretation of His words, expressly denying it meant eat His literal flesh, that would profit them nothing:

 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
 (Joh 6:63-65 KJV)

Speaking for the Twelve, Peter shows they do understand Christ's meaning:

 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
 (Joh 6:67-69 KJV)

Why would Christ speak this hard saying to them knowing it would stumble them?

 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 (Mat 13:10-15 KJV)

They were not His sheep.


 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
 (Joh 10:25-28 KJV)
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 08:38:21 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2010, 10:06:49 AM »
Christ Himself stated what "eat my flesh...drink my blood" means:

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (Joh 6:30-35 KJV)

That this is Christ's meaning is confirmed by Peter's interpretation of Christ's words:


63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
 (Joh 6:63-69 KJV)

Compare Verse 63 with vvs 68f
" thou hast the words of eternal life" = " the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
 (Joh 6:69 KJV)

The flesh or covering of the Incarnate Christ profits nothing, believing (=ingesting) the truth about Him clothed by the flesh imparts eternal life.


Context confirms this, the theme throughout is believing in Christ, the symbols of flesh and blood are meant to convey one must ingest Christ entire, not just His fleshly outer appearance, but inner Spirit of life incarnate in the flesh, for eternal life:

24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You come here?"
 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
 27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,`He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
 32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33 "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
 40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
 41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says,`I have come down from heaven '?"
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
 47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
 48 "I am the bread of life.
 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
 (Joh 6:23-71 NKJ)



It is unhistorical to presume Christ is speaking of the Eucharist, it didn't exist when Christ spoke these words, and He clearly expects these disciples understand His true meaning. That would be impossible is Christ is referring to the Eucharist.

 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

These ate of the loaves and fishes, and were satisfied yet were demanding greater signs of Christ's authority (John 6:26-28). Jesus questions if even an ascent into heaven would be enough for these to rightly interpret His words (vs 62). Any other Rabbi would have been given the benefit of the doubt when teaching a "hard saying", and its figurative sense would have been sought. But not these disciples, they were not of Christ's sheep:

 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
 (Joh 6:35-37 KJV)

Their insistence He spoke of cannibalism was an excuse to not believe.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 (Joh 6:41-45 KJV)

Christ gave them one last appeal to seek the correct interpretation of His words, expressly denying it meant eat His literal flesh, that would profit them nothing:

 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
 (Joh 6:63-65 KJV)

Speaking for the Twelve, Peter shows they do understand Christ's meaning:

 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
 (Joh 6:67-69 KJV)

Why would Christ speak this hard saying to them knowing it would stumble them?

 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 (Mat 13:10-15 KJV)

They were not His sheep.


 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
 (Joh 10:25-28 KJV)


Let me quote you:
Your point was buried in the irrelevant...I'm certain you were trying to say something, and just as certain I lack the patience to pick it out from all the irrelevant texts which, to you say one thing, to me likely something quite different.

A word of advice, humans don't see the same thing, unless one is careful to point out precisely what they are looking at.

A lot of my apologetic suffers from quoting too much scripture, where I assume people saw what I saw....they usually don't.

I've since noticed something in scripture, when Christ or His apostles cite scripture, they only quote the precise relevant words, not the whole text...

We will both communicate much better, when we copy their fine example.

I thought you were going to discuss the Eucharist, precisely. I'm willing to do that, I am not willing to wade through reams of irrelevant texts.

Make your point directly, or I won't bother this thread again.
Promises, promises.

You've been corrected on these issues of John 6 before.  Your innovative and foundless speculation of the matter withstands no scrutiny.

Meditate long and hard on John 6:66 (interesting number, no?) and see yourself.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline JLatimer

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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2010, 11:53:36 AM »
Sorry I was away for so long.

Your point was buried in the irrelevant...I'm certain you were trying to say something, and just as certain I lack the patience to pick it out from all the irrelevant texts which, to you say one thing, to me likely something quite different.

I'm actually not sure I had a point. I don't pretend to know much about Scripture. I just thought it might be useful to go through the chapter slowly as a group with an eye to understanding it a little bit better as a whole. It wouldn't really be time for making points until we got further in than a few verses. :)

A word of advice, humans don't see the same thing, unless one is careful to point out precisely what they are looking at.

I'm aware that we often don't see the same things, which is why I thought a better way to at least approach a common understanding would be to look at some of the passages we've been contending about in a broader context, so that we can see how we are piecing everything together. That, ISTM, would be less confusing and frustrating for all.

I am not willing to wade through reams of irrelevant texts.

I must admit I don't really see how any of the Bible can be called irrelevant; it seems to me every part is relevant to the whole and the whole relevant to every part.

Still, I'm no expert, and I won't claim I understand the whole or even a part. But it seems worth it to try.
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline JLatimer

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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2010, 11:59:15 AM »
Without re-copying everything, I will say that I noticed a few things. Going up on the mountain is a sign of His Divinity and authority. The Passover ties the passage into Christ's death and resurrection which, according to Scripture, we proclaim as often as we receive communion. The miracles alluded to are all done by Christ's words, which ties into the reality of Christ's words "This is my Body...".

Good points! In reference to going up the mountain as a sign of Divinity, are you connecting ascending the mountain to the Ascension, as in

Quote from: John 6:62 (KJV)
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

or are you meaning something else?
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline Come Back

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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2010, 12:24:34 PM »
Are you somehow implying a connection between  Moses and Jesus, between what happened with Israel in Exodus and Jesus?If so which is this connection?
A half-truth is a lie.

Offline JLatimer

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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2010, 03:20:13 PM »
Are you somehow implying a connection between  Moses and Jesus, between what happened with Israel in Exodus and Jesus?If so which is this connection?

I definitely see a connection - a whole mess of connections, really - between Jesus in this passage, and throughout the whole Gospel, and Moses. John makes the connection explicit in his prologue:
Quote from: John 1:17 (NKJV)
For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

In John 6, the description of Jesus ascending the mountain, together with the reference to the Passover, seems sufficient to place the chapter in that typological context. However, I am sure there are many other connections and layers of meaning to be found; and it would, it seems to me, be impossible to exhaust the meaning even of just this one typological connection.

Without a doubt, Jesus Christ is the new and better Moses:

  • Moses gave the Law; Jesus Christ gives us Grace and Truth.
  • Moses sealed the Old Covenant, written on tablets of stone, with the blood of bulls; Jesus Christ seals the New Covenant, written on our hearts, with His own precious Blood.
  • Moses gave the people manna to eat; Jesus Christ gives His Flesh, His Body and Blood, for the life of the world.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 03:23:05 PM by JLatimer »
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline Come Back

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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2010, 03:33:57 PM »
I thought you draw a more deeper connection , linking the present actions with the past ones.. For example Jesus being on the mountain [of the Sea of Galilee] as he was present on Sinai when the mountain was on fire and darkness was on top of it.. Like Jesus being the one that gave the hebrews the heavenly mannah.. taking them out of Egypt through the Sea, giving them the Passover Lamb and etc.. A sort of "Moses meeting with Jesus" .. Or Moses doing what Jesus did..
A half-truth is a lie.

Offline Cleopas

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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2010, 08:27:09 AM »
Alfred,

For what it's worth, I very much enjoyed your response proper above. It was very thought provoking, and you emphasized a strand of contextual thought I evidently had not before so readily recognized in the chapter. I understood the conclusion, and the basic truth you are asserting, concerning the nature of our "consumption" being indicative of faith and the internalization of truth, as revealed in Christ. However, I don't recall ever before recognizing just how apparent the explanation "believe" was throughout the chapter itself.

Thank you for sharing.
Cleopas
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Offline JLatimer

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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2010, 04:01:28 PM »
Alfred,

For what it's worth, I very much enjoyed your response proper above. It was very thought provoking, and you emphasized a strand of contextual thought I evidently had not before so readily recognized in the chapter. I understood the conclusion, and the basic truth you are asserting, concerning the nature of our "consumption" being indicative of faith and the internalization of truth, as revealed in Christ. However, I don't recall ever before recognizing just how apparent the explanation "believe" was throughout the chapter itself.

Thank you for sharing.

Show me the quotes

There are no quotation marks around "consumption" in the text. Belief in Jesus, the Incarnate Word of God, is clearly key in this passage (as elsewhere); however, where I cannot follow you, if I wish to be true to the text, is in jumping to belief=eating (belief as "explanation").

Our Lord is very clear: two different words, both meaning 'eat', are used: φαγω ('eat', 'physically consume', metaphorically 'devour, consume') and τρωγω (lit. 'eat, gnaw, chew').

The other uses of phago in John are

In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat.
But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.

Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?

When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?

(Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.


none of which is metaphorical. There is no good reason, save a priori bias against a literal reading, to think phago is metaphorical where Jesus refers to eating his flesh. As for trogo, it is well known that it can only mean literal eating; the image of 'chewing' is really quite inescapably graphic.

That said, let us say again that there is a distinction between 'literal' and 'carnal'. The Jews interpret Jesus' words literally - and notice how in that he does not make any attempt to correct them - but, alas, also carnally. It is in reference to their carnal-mindedness that Jesus the Savior says, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life". The correct reading of this text is literal and spiritual.

Just a few preliminary thoughts on belief

So what role does belief or faith play in all this? Look at verses 28-30:

Quote from: John 6:28-30 (KJV)
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? [29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. [30] They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

The Jews are looking for a 'sign', a 'proof' that Jesus is Who He claims to be. They expected the Messiah to repeat the miracle of the manna. They think that if they 'see', they will believe; however, in actuality, "They have Moses and the prophets.... If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (emphasis mine). Now, "faith comes by hearing" and precedes seeing. As our Lord said to Thomas, "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed". Now note that in John 6:40, Jesus seems to imply seeing comes first:

Quote
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

But one cannot "see" the Son, and believe on Him, without faith. With the eyes of faith, the believer beholds Jesus of Nazareth and sees Him for what He truly is: the Only-Begotten Son and Eternal Word of God. Faith is the "gift of God", given to a "heart that is broken and humbled", that is, a heart that is pure: "blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God". Faith itself is the "evidence of things unseen".

The Jews have it backwards: we must not, in a state of unrepentance, ask for a sign as proof that Jesus is God. We must believe on Him and then we will see the "sign".

This is exactly what happens to one when he is initiated into the Mysteries of the Church. First, he believes and is baptized. As a result, his eyes are opened to behold Christ, Who makes Himself known in the "breaking of the bread", that is, in the Eucharist. How else would Jesus' reference in John 6:40 to "seeing" Him and believing, be relevant to us today, if we were not actually able to see Him?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 04:04:30 PM by JLatimer »
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline JLatimer

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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2010, 09:27:26 PM »
I am the bread of life; he that comes to Me shall never hunger, and he that believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, that you also have seen Me, and believe Me not.
2. Thus also John cries, saying beforehand, He speaks that He knows, and testifies that He has seen, and no man receives His testimony John 3:32; and again Christ Himself, We speak that We do know, and testify that We have seen John 3:11, and you believe not. This He does to prevent them, and to show them that the matter does not trouble Him, that He desires not honor, that He is not ignorant of the secrets of their minds, nor of things present, nor of things to come.

I am the bread of life. Now He proceeds to commit unto them mysteries. And first He discourses of His Godhead, saying, I am the bread of life. For this is not spoken of His Body, (concerning that He says towards the end, And the bread which I shall give is My flesh,) but at present it referrs to His Godhead. For That, through God the Word, is Bread, as this bread also, through the Spirit descending on it, is made Heavenly Bread. Here He uses not witnesses, as in His former address, for He had the miracle of the loaves to witness to Him, and the Jews themselves for a while pretending to believe Him; in the former case they opposed and accused Him. This is the reason why here He declares Himself. But they, since they expected to enjoy a carnal feast, were not disturbed until they gave up their hope. Yet not for that was Christ silent, but uttered many words of reproof. For they, who while they were eating called Him a Prophet, were here offended, and called Him the carpenter's son; not so while they ate the loaves, then they said, He is The Prophet, and desired to make Him a king. Now they seemed to be indignant at His asserting that He came down from heaven, but in truth it was not this that caused their indignation, but the thought that they should not enjoy a material table. Had they been really indignant, they ought to have asked and enquired how He was the bread of life, how He had come down from heaven; but now they do not this, but murmur. And that it was not this which offended them is plain from another circumstance. When He said, My Father gives you the bread, they exclaimed not, Beseech Him that He give; but what? Give us that bread; yet He said not, I give, but, My Father gives; nevertheless, they, from desire of the food, thought Him worthy to be trusted to for its supply. Now how should they, who deemed Him worthy of their trust for giving, be afterward offended when they also heard that the Father gives? What is the reason? It is that when they heard that they were not to eat, they again disbelieved, and put forth by way of a cloak for their disbelief, that it was a high saying. Wherefore He says, You have seen Me, and believe not John 5:39; alluding partly to His miracles, partly to the testimony from the Scriptures; For they, He says, are they which testify of Me c. v. 43, 44; and, I have come in My Father's Name, and you receive Me not; and, How can you believe which receive honor of men?
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline Cleopas

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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2010, 01:48:38 PM »
Jlatimer,

I appreciate your distinction between carnal and literal. As such, I don't necessarily disagree to your wider point. But obviously, in application to this passage, I do. Still, that was a very well argued point. I'll give you that.

As for supplying the quotes, I should only have to copy and paste Alfred's reply above. In lieu thereof, and for brevity, I simply refer you back thereto.
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Re: John 6, a little at a time
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2010, 05:59:55 PM »
Jlatimer,

I appreciate your distinction between carnal and literal. As such, I don't necessarily disagree to your wider point. But obviously, in application to this passage, I do. Still, that was a very well argued point. I'll give you that.

As for supplying the quotes, I should only have to copy and paste Alfred's reply above. In lieu thereof, and for brevity, I simply refer you back thereto.

Allow me to express my gratitude to you as well, fr getting me thinking with your last post.  I'd be happy to continue the discussion, if you like. John 6 is such a rich chapter. It's unfathomable.

I think the passage from Chrysostom should be helpful. Did you take a look at it? He refers to the Godhead as the "True Bread":

Quote
And first He discourses of His Godhead, saying, I am the bread of life. For this is not spoken of His Body, (concerning that He says towards the end, And the bread which I shall give is My flesh,) but at present it referrs to His Godhead.

this makes sense, of course, since the True Bread is "from Heaven". I think that's actually similar in a way to what you and Alfred want to say about "Spirit" - "God is Spirit".

But notice how Chrysostom's identification of the True Bread with the Godhead does not lead him to deny the Real [, physical, and bodily] Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, but to affirm it:

Quote
For That, through God the Word, is Bread, as this bread also, through the Spirit descending on it, is made Heavenly Bread.

"The Spirit quickeneth"

Chrysostom also has a discussion of 'carnality', at the beginning of the homily.

Quote
Then said they unto Him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent. They said therefore unto Him, What sign do you show then, that we may see and believe you? What do you work?
1. There is nothing worse, nothing more shameful, than gluttony; it makes the mind gross, and the soul carnal; it blinds, and permits not to see clearly. Observe, for instance, how this is the case with the Jews; for because they were intent upon gluttony, entirely occupied with worldly things, and without any spiritual thoughts, though Christ leads them on by ten thousand sayings, sharp and at the same time forbearing, even thus they arise not, but continue groveling below. For consider; He said to them, You seek Me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the bread, and were filled; He touched them by the reproof, He showed them what food they ought to seek, saying, Labor not for the meat that perishes; He set before them the prize, saying, but that which endures unto everlasting life; then provided a remedy for what might have been an objection, by declaring that He was sent from the Father.

What then did they? As though they had heard nothing, they said, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? This they said, not that they might learn and do them, (as the sequel shows,) but to induce Him again to supply them with food, and desiring to persuade Him to satisfy them. What then says Christ? This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent. On this they asked, What sign do you show, that we may see and believe?

BTW, quotes was in reference to "quotation marks". Sorry for the confusion.
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.