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Author Topic: Sola Scriptura and Biblical Hermeneutic  (Read 585 times) Average Rating: 0
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Benjamin the Red
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« on: December 08, 2010, 11:56:32 AM »

Also, Jesus didn't come out and say word for word "I am God". It's true that you can find places where the New Testament says that he is God or has God's essence, like I think Colossians where the Jehovah Witness Bible (an admission on their part) says that he has the fullness of the divine quality.

And this is a problem for the Jehovah's Witnesses, and Protestants in general. Any church that accepts sola scriptura must either form their own hermaneutic with which to understand Scripture or allow each person to decide for themselves what is right. Neither of these options are preferable, as they are entirely disconnected from the Tradition that has produced the Scriptures, and therefore lack the fullness of the Christian faith.

Therefore, let us "be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines" (Heb. 13:9) but "stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." (2 Thess. 2:15).
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 11:58:46 AM by Benjamin the Red » Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2010, 01:27:50 AM »

Also, Jesus didn't come out and say word for word "I am God". It's true that you can find places where the New Testament says that he is God or has God's essence, like I think Colossians where the Jehovah Witness Bible (an admission on their part) says that he has the fullness of the divine quality.

And this is a problem for the Jehovah's Witnesses, and Protestants in general. Any church that accepts sola scriptura must either form their own hermaneutic with which to understand Scripture or allow each person to decide for themselves what is right. Neither of these options are preferable, as they are entirely disconnected from the Tradition that has produced the Scriptures, and therefore lack the fullness of the Christian faith.

Therefore, let us "be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines" (Heb. 13:9) but "stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." (2 Thess. 2:15).

meh, Sola Scriptura does not have to be separate from tradition's stance (multiple stances). Many protestants hold the early creeds.

On topic:
Well, I believe Jesus thought himself divine but the gospel writers weren't 100% on their understanding. But either way, I believe the New Testament clearly states Jesus was God.
Philosophically, there are numerous reasons why Jesus must have been God (depending on your philosophical assumptions).
Examples: Only God can forgive sins, be worshipped, defeat death ext.

To me, if Jesus isn't God, then he probably didn't resurrect and I'm becoming an atheist, haha.
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Benjamin the Red
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2010, 10:26:55 AM »

meh, Sola Scriptura does not have to be separate from tradition's stance (multiple stances). Many protestants hold the early creeds.

Protestant theology is not required to disagree with Tradition on each and every point, no, but it does use its selective historical readings to pick and choose. Your post is a good example: "early creeds", usually the first four, not the others, and even then only selectively. I do not believe the Lutheran Church (or any Protestant church) maintains the canon law, for example, of those Councils. Instead, they simply and loosely hold to the christological definitions of them, and ignore the rest of the Councils, as they no longer assist in forming their theology.

And it seems like the Gethsemane scene in John's Gospel contains the same sort of thing. The fact that the soldiers fell over at Christ's uttering of "I am" most likely means that it in fact was the Tetragrammaton.

Absolutely. There are dozens of passages that demostrate the use of the Tetragrammaton by Christ. My meager list of two verses is no where near exhaustive.

I think there is a passage in the Bible which attributes the Resurrection of Christ to Himself and there is another that attributes it to the Father.

Again, spot on: "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." (John 10:17-18).
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 10:28:21 AM by Benjamin the Red » Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2010, 08:39:18 PM »

Sola Scripture was a historical reaction to the oppression of the church using scripture and tradition tyrannically. Today, confessional protestants tend to take seriously creeds that are considered historically viable and flow from the voice of scripture. As Luther said, What is tradition? People in constant disagreement over interpretation and acton. To me, no Christian sect has an interpretation of history (or holy history) that seems truly consistent. Lutheranism, more than many protestant denominations, attempt to take seriously the creeds but because of the experience with Rome, their was a search for a higher authority... thus, scripture was it. At the time, it was the only answer. 



meh, Sola Scriptura does not have to be separate from tradition's stance (multiple stances). Many protestants hold the early creeds.

Protestant theology is not required to disagree with Tradition on each and every point, no, but it does use its selective historical readings to pick and choose. Your post is a good example: "early creeds", usually the first four, not the others, and even then only selectively. I do not believe the Lutheran Church (or any Protestant church) maintains the canon law, for example, of those Councils. Instead, they simply and loosely hold to the christological definitions of them, and ignore the rest of the Councils, as they no longer assist in forming their theology.


« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 08:40:50 PM by spoken » Logged
Benjamin the Red
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2010, 08:44:52 PM »

Sola Scripture was a historical reaction to the oppression of the church using scripture and tradition tyrannically. Today, confessional protestants tend to take seriously creeds that are considered historically viable and flow from the voice of scripture. As Luther said, What is tradition? People in constant disagreement over interpretation and acton. To me, no Christian sect has an interpretation of history (or holy history) that seems truly consistent. Lutheranism, more than many protestant denominations, attempt to take seriously the creeds but because of the experience with Rome, their was a search for a higher authority... thus, scripture was it. At the time, it was the only answer.  



meh, Sola Scriptura does not have to be separate from tradition's stance (multiple stances). Many protestants hold the early creeds.

Protestant theology is not required to disagree with Tradition on each and every point, no, but it does use its selective historical readings to pick and choose. Your post is a good example: "early creeds", usually the first four, not the others, and even then only selectively. I do not believe the Lutheran Church (or any Protestant church) maintains the canon law, for example, of those Councils. Instead, they simply and loosely hold to the christological definitions of them, and ignore the rest of the Councils, as they no longer assist in forming their theology.


Mods: Since we've been told once already, could we get a split so we could continue talking about this in the proper forum?

spoken: I'll gladly write a response to you once the mods have kindly done this for us, as I won't want to ruffle their feathers in more than I already have!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 08:47:00 PM by Benjamin the Red » Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2010, 09:13:24 PM »

Sola Scripture was a historical reaction to the oppression of the church using scripture and tradition tyrannically. Today, confessional protestants tend to take seriously creeds that are considered historically viable and flow from the voice of scripture. As Luther said, What is tradition? People in constant disagreement over interpretation and acton. To me, no Christian sect has an interpretation of history (or holy history) that seems truly consistent. Lutheranism, more than many protestant denominations, attempt to take seriously the creeds but because of the experience with Rome, their was a search for a higher authority... thus, scripture was it. At the time, it was the only answer.  



meh, Sola Scriptura does not have to be separate from tradition's stance (multiple stances). Many protestants hold the early creeds.

Protestant theology is not required to disagree with Tradition on each and every point, no, but it does use its selective historical readings to pick and choose. Your post is a good example: "early creeds", usually the first four, not the others, and even then only selectively. I do not believe the Lutheran Church (or any Protestant church) maintains the canon law, for example, of those Councils. Instead, they simply and loosely hold to the christological definitions of them, and ignore the rest of the Councils, as they no longer assist in forming their theology.


This the Orthodox fully agree with. The Roman Catholics were the first Protestants who broke away from the teachings of the Church. The later Protestants recognized the falsity in the Roman Catholic theology and sought to recreate the original Church which they thought was lost. The Church was, however, never lost and preserved within Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 09:15:11 PM by Dart » Logged
Benjamin the Red
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« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2010, 04:45:11 PM »

Sola Scripture was a historical reaction to the oppression of the church using scripture and tradition tyrannically. Today, confessional protestants tend to take seriously creeds that are considered historically viable and flow from the voice of scripture.

Yes, it was an historical reaction, one that is not rooted in the foundation of the Church nor given by the Apostles. "confessional" Protestants today do have a bit of a love affair with the earlier Councils...at least the parts which they can agree with. Much of the detail within the councils is excluded, together with the later councils in totality. Why? What changed? The councils no longer fit the need of those denominations to prove themselves as truly "historical."

As Luther said, What is tradition? People in constant disagreement over interpretation and acton. To me, no Christian sect has an interpretation of history (or holy history) that seems truly consistent.

Luther, quite frankly, was wrong. While there is certainly place for theologumenia, Orthodoxy is what has been believed by all, over all time everywhere. When one deviates from that, they are heretical. This is what the councils were for, to correct and elaborate on those parts of Tradition which were being distorted. And yet...Protestants don't except all of those early clarification, even though the very last one was established and accepted centuries before the Reformation. Interesting.

Lutheranism, more than many protestant denominations, attempt to take seriously the creeds but because of the experience with Rome, their was a search for a higher authority... thus, scripture was it. At the time, it was the only answer.

Yes, Luther (and therefore Lutheranism, at least the small remaining number of traditional Lutherans) attempts to maintain more of a connection to the early church than others. Maybe, at the time, that was the only answer. What about now? It is a mutable doctrine? That doesn't sound like the unchanging truth of the Gospel.

The point remains, he still interpreted Scripture on his own, apart from any established Tradition, and elevated Scripture to a place which it never belonged.
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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
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