Author Topic: Catholic-Islam Alliance  (Read 2939 times)

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Offline Jetavan

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Catholic-Islam Alliance
« on: December 08, 2010, 11:30:21 PM »
Would Orthodoxy be open to an "alliance" with Islam, in the way proposed by BXVI?


From the pen of John Allen:

At the core of Benedict's vision is what he described during a May 2009 journey to Jordan as an "Alliance of Civilizations" – a phrase obviously crafted as an alternative to the "Clash of Civilizations." The idea is that Christians and Muslims should stand shoulder-to-shoulder in defense of shared values such as the right to life, care of the poor, opposition to war and corruption, and a robust role for religion in public life. (The pope calls that "inter-cultural," as opposed to "inter-religious," dialogue.)

In Light of the World, Benedict is asked if he has abandoned the medieval notion that popes are supposed to save the West from Islamization.

"Today we are living in a completely different world, in which the battle lines are drawn differently," Benedict says. "In this world, radical secularism stands on one side, and the question of God, in its various forms, stands on the other."

In that struggle, Benedict sees Christians and Muslims as natural allies.

Bottom line: The only crusade Benedict is interested in leading is against a "dictatorship of relativism," not against Islam. If only Nixon could go to China, maybe only Benedict XVI can go to Mecca.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 11:31:16 PM by Jetavan »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2010, 12:18:33 AM »

 ???
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2010, 12:27:14 AM »
Would Orthodoxy be open to an "alliance" with Islam, in the way proposed by BXVI?


From the pen of John Allen:

At the core of Benedict's vision is what he described during a May 2009 journey to Jordan as an "Alliance of Civilizations" – a phrase obviously crafted as an alternative to the "Clash of Civilizations." The idea is that Christians and Muslims should stand shoulder-to-shoulder in defense of shared values such as the right to life, care of the poor, opposition to war and corruption, and a robust role for religion in public life. (The pope calls that "inter-cultural," as opposed to "inter-religious," dialogue.)

In Light of the World, Benedict is asked if he has abandoned the medieval notion that popes are supposed to save the West from Islamization.

"Today we are living in a completely different world, in which the battle lines are drawn differently," Benedict says. "In this world, radical secularism stands on one side, and the question of God, in its various forms, stands on the other."

In that struggle, Benedict sees Christians and Muslims as natural allies.

Bottom line: The only crusade Benedict is interested in leading is against a "dictatorship of relativism," not against Islam. If only Nixon could go to China, maybe only Benedict XVI can go to Mecca.
and be killed.


Opposition to war in the "religion of Peace?"

He started so promising.
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2010, 12:29:05 AM »
Would Orthodoxy be open to an "alliance" with Islam, in the way proposed by BXVI?

If they accepted baptism.  ;) Oh come on, you knew it was coming.  :D

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2010, 10:54:14 AM »
Notre Dame is in on the act:

NEW YORK -- The University of Notre Dame has launched a major new initiative called “Contending Modernities: Catholic, Muslim and Secular,” described as a scholarly effort to bring the best minds in both traditions to bear on the collision between faith and reason in the contemporary world.

The initiative offers yet another confirmation that outreach to Islam has become the top interfaith priority of the Catholic church, both in its official structures and at the grass roots.

In the recent book Light of the World: The Pope, the Church, and the Signs of the Times, released a few days after the Notre Dame initiative was unveiled (see Page 18), Pope Benedict XVI argues that Christian-Muslim relations in the early 21st century should pivot on the common challenge of situating themselves vis-à-vis secular modernity.
....
Ingrid Mattson, a scholar at Hartford Seminary in Connecticut and the first female president of the Islamic Society of North America, warned that the common threat posed by secularism may cause important differences between Catholics and Muslims to be glossed over.

For example, Mattson cited a U.N. conference on family planning in Cairo in the mid-1990s, when the Vatican and some Islamic states joined forces to oppose liberal policies on “reproductive rights.”
In fact, Mattson said, “birth control was permitted in medieval Islam, and still is,” yet Muslim spokespersons tended to defer to the Vatican even on contraception out of alarm over “the modern assault on religion generally.”
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 10:57:03 AM by Jetavan »
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2010, 11:15:18 AM »
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em! (kidding... :-\ )

Offline bogdan

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2010, 11:25:59 AM »
This is madness. Insanity. Imagine how weak Christianity must look to Moslems. Imagine how this looks to Copts who face death every day at the hands of their Moslem oppressors.

You don't join hands with evil because it has a facade of goodness around it. But I suppose Mr Allen would call me an extremist for saying that.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 11:30:35 AM by bogdan »

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2010, 11:40:04 AM »
Benedict says. "In this world, radical secularism stands on one side, and the question of God Islamic jihad, in its various forms, stands on the other."

FTFtP (Fixed that for the Pope)

And I'll just leave this here:


Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2010, 11:42:30 AM »
That picture never gets any easier to look at...much like this one:

« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 11:43:47 AM by Ortho_cat »

Offline bogdan

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2010, 12:04:40 PM »
That picture never gets any easier to look at...much like this one:



Nor does this:


(Confessor and Priest-martyr Fr. Daniil Sysoyev †2009)


Or this, this, or this.

(Warning: Graphic images)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 12:05:30 PM by bogdan »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2010, 12:10:44 PM »
I see your B.O. and raise you a G.W.



Where is the divided highway, Ialmisry? Is that for a nonMuslim section of town called Jeddah in an extremist country?

The biggest obstacle to unity with R.C. is that they have the Pope being everyone's supreme ruler or something, while a Patriarch would be like his subject. So any disagreement on doctrine would subject our position to the RC one. It is a practical concern that goes above anything. You can't agree to disagree with the Papa.

Regarding Islam, it also seems to be a practical concern that would be the biggest to an alliance. It seems like their customs discriminate against people born to Muslim families who became Christian. I think it's the biggest obstacle. Jordan and yes even Iran guarantee a Christian place in parliament and have protective laws allowing Christians to worship. I'm sure such protections and laws could be better and enforced better. Plus, Christians have survived for centuries under Islamic rule in many places. I know that the Copts have got it pretty bad, but improvements could be made in principle. My point is just that in some ways an alliance would be possible. Even our church leaders in the 15th century said that they would prefer a Muslim turban to an RC bishops' hat, when confronted with the Crusades.

But such a possibility of an alliance is greatly diminished, and possibly mainly diminished, by the custom attacking people who grow up in Muslim families and want to become Christian. I'm sure there are many other obstacles to an alliance. But it seems like this simple obstacle, just like the idea of RC papal supremacy, seems to be a huge one. To give an extreme example, how could you marry someone if your stepkids would get whooped if they tried to live with you?

It seems that if they would have open discussion about religion and allow simple people to choose what they come to believe is the truth, then it would go a long way to friendship with Islam. Otherwise, if there is no free discussion, questioning, and allowing for exchange, then it is very hard, perhaps harder than doctrine.

Perhaps such an obstacle can be overcome. In the 11th century, Egyptian rulers destroyed many churches and made a rule forcibly converting Christians to Islam, but then changed their mind, allowed the Christians to return to Christianity, and rebuilt the churches. So perhaps some Islamic countries could have a free exchange of ideas, questioning, and allowing people to come to the Truth.

But attacking Christian converts seems like a huge obstacle like Papal Supremacy is.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2010, 12:12:07 PM »
(Confessor and Priest-martyr Fr. Daniil Sysoyev †2009)

Vechnaya Pamyat'.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2010, 12:25:09 PM »
Where is the divided highway, Ialmisry? Is that for a nonMuslim section of town called Jeddah in an extremist country?

It is the highway in Saudi Arabia. Jeddah is the coastal town near Mecca (Jiddah means "Grandmother" and on the edge of town is a heap that is claimed as the tomb of Eve), and the major port on the Red Sea.  It used to be that embassies to SA were based in Jiddah, the most pleasant place in the whole of the Kingdom, until the government  forced them to move to Riyadh.  Non-Muslims are forbidden, on penalty of death, of getting near Mecca.  Odd since Muslim tradition affirms that an Ethiopian Orthodox stone mason rebuild the Ka'bah for the Quraysh in the days of Muhammad.  Muhammad last words, however, are supposed to have told the Muslims to not allow two religions in Arabia.  The Christian community of Najran was expelled to Mesopotamia.

Quote
Regarding Islam, it also seems to be a practical concern that would be the biggest to an alliance. It seems like their customs discriminate against people born to Muslim families who became Christian. I think it's the biggest obstacle. Jordan and yes even Iran guarantee a Christian place in parliament and have protective laws allowing Christians to worship. I'm sure such protections and laws could be better and enforced better. Plus, Christians have survived for centuries under Islamic rule in many places. I know that the Copts have got it pretty bad, but improvements could be made in principle. My point is just that in some ways an alliance would be possible. Even our church leaders in the 15th century said that they would prefer a Muslim turban to an RC bishops' hat, when confronted with the Crusades.
What would they say about a "RC bishop" in a Muslim turban?

Another problem is that the vast majority of Muslims are not Islamists, but they defer to the Islaimists to define Islam.

« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 12:26:24 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2010, 12:45:56 PM »
Odd since Muslim tradition affirms that an Ethiopian Orthodox stone mason rebuild the Ka'bah for the Quraysh in the days of Muhammad.  Muhammad last words, however, are supposed to have told the Muslims to not allow two religions in Arabia.  The Christian community of Najran was expelled to Mesopotamia.

Yes, good point about the stone mason. When you say "two religions", do we have it strongly from tradition that one of them was Christianity.

Quote
Quote
Even our church leaders in the 15th century said that they would prefer a Muslim turban to an RC bishops' hat, when confronted with the Crusades.
What would they say about a "RC bishop" in a Muslim turban?


Would they call them Melkites or Melkite converts to Islam?

Quote
Another problem is that the vast majority of Muslims are not Islamists, but they defer to the Islaimists to define Islam.

What do you mean?



It's nice to read a reply that doesn't say that I am a "collaborator" when I say something partly positive about Muslims for once. ha ha.

Happy Advent
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 12:47:23 PM by rakovsky »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2010, 01:11:14 PM »
Odd since Muslim tradition affirms that an Ethiopian Orthodox stone mason rebuild the Ka'bah for the Quraysh in the days of Muhammad.  Muhammad last words, however, are supposed to have told the Muslims to not allow two religions in Arabia.  The Christian community of Najran was expelled to Mesopotamia.

Yes, good point about the stone mason. When you say "two religions", do we have it strongly from tradition that one of them was Christianity.

More than that: there are archaelogical remains of Churches (though the Saudi government has demolished many).

Another problem is that the vast majority of Muslims are not Islamists, but they defer to the Islaimists to define Islam.

What do you mean?

Very few Muslims will contradict what the Islamicists say Islam is. For instance, very few Muslims denounced the death fatwa against Salman Rushdie, and few disagree with the law that apostates from Islam must be killed. The reason why the descendants of Jinnah, the Father of Pakistan, cannot visit Pakistan-they are all baptized.

Quote
It's nice to read a reply that doesn't say that I am a "collaborator" when I say something partly positive about Muslims for once. ha ha.

Have I?

Quote
Happy Advent
Blessed Fast and Feast of the Nativity.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2010, 01:16:19 PM »
(Confessor and Priest-martyr Fr. Daniil Sysoyev †2009)

Vechnaya Pamyat'.

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2010, 01:28:38 PM »
More than that: there are archaelogical remains of Churches
Awesome. Maybe one day they will be rebuilt.

Another problem is that the vast majority of Muslims are not Islamists, but they defer to the Islaimists to define Islam.
What do you mean?

I am somewhat confused about the difference between Islamist and Muslim, since I thought that "Muslim" wasn't an ethnicity, but a religious aspect.

Quote
The reason why the descendants of Jinnah, the Father of Pakistan, cannot visit Pakistan-they are all baptized.
Interesting.


Quote
Quote
It's nice to read a reply that doesn't say that I am a "collaborator" when I say something partly positive about Muslims for once. ha ha.

Have I?

No. I was referring to the politics section expressing sympathy for Christians and/or normal sympathetic Muslims (whatever portion they are) in the Holy Land, which it's true most posters did too anyway.

Quote
Blessed Fast and Feast of the Nativity.

You too, brother!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 01:30:32 PM by rakovsky »

Offline recent convert

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2010, 02:02:29 PM »
So is sharia a viable form of morality in the eyes of Rome?
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Offline Papist

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2010, 02:04:13 PM »
So is sharia a viable form of morality in the eyes of Rome?
No.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2010, 02:19:59 PM »
The end times are near my brothers and sisters. The Anti-Christ and the False Prophet are openly disclosing their hellish pact.

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Offline recent convert

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2010, 02:36:35 PM »
So is sharia a viable form of morality in the eyes of Rome?
No.
Well I am glad you & probably most Catholics agree. I also do not mean to take a shot against the Catholic Church which I have generally have much admiration for. Nonetheless, this must be distressing & confusing to many Christians: Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant. We must be vigilant and discerning of this since it is bewildering.
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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2010, 02:50:22 PM »
So is sharia a viable form of morality in the eyes of Rome?
No.
One could say the thing about Orthodox Jewish law, but still, there would be areas in which Catholics and Orthodox Jews could work together.
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2010, 02:52:21 PM »
So is sharia a viable form of morality in the eyes of Rome?
No.
One could say the thing about Orthodox Jewish law, but still, there would be areas in which Catholics and Orthodox Jews could work together.
Agreed. I think that moderate Muslims can fruitfully work with Catholics against secularism.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2010, 03:08:55 PM »
So is sharia a viable form of morality in the eyes of Rome?
No.
One could say the thing about Orthodox Jewish law, but still, there would be areas in which Catholics and Orthodox Jews could work together.
Agreed. I think that moderate Muslims can fruitfully work with Catholics against secularism.

Seems to me secularism is a consequence of the evolution of Catholicism. Where else did it spring up? How else can you account for the movement from a thoroughly Catholic area of the world being torn asunder quickly into Protestantism, Secularism, Marxism, etc?

I know this is probably too complex a question for a board and perhaps a loaded one, but anyhow, there it is.

To make this concrete, I've know many "lapsed" RC women. They have some of the most charitable and giving people I have ever met. They occupy the helping professions and give more of their time and money to charities than most other folks I know.

When I asked them why they stopped "being Catholic", to the one, the response:

It's all just about being a good person. The golden rule. Everything else is just a bunch of rituals. Jesus showed you should be loving and giving.

And they act more "Christianly" than most at least based on their demeanor and behavior, just some vague notion of a God and no connection to a church except the occasion Mass with family or visit to their friends' Megachurch.

 
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Offline Papist

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2010, 03:09:47 PM »
Marixism thrived in EO countries.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2010, 03:11:04 PM »
Marixism thrived in EO countries.
Like Cuba, Italy, Spain and various countries in Latin America.

in fact, IIRC, Spain and Chile were the only countries where communism came to power totally by a free vote.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 03:12:56 PM by ialmisry »
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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2010, 03:12:09 PM »
Marixism thrived in EO countries.
Like Cuba, Italy, Spain and various countries in Latin America.
Oh please, you know that it was MUCH stronger in the Eastern block, such as in a Russia, with it's "Third Rome".  :D
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2010, 03:14:56 PM »
Marixism thrived in EO countries.
Like Cuba, Italy, Spain and various countries in Latin America.
Oh please, you know that it was MUCH stronger in the Eastern block, such as in a Russia, with it's "Third Rome".  :D
Germany was the stronghold of communism before the Bolshiviks imposed communism.  It was imposed in Cuba as well, but freely chosen in Spain, Italy etc.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2010, 03:18:42 PM »
Marixism thrived in EO countries.
Like Cuba, Italy, Spain and various countries in Latin America.
Oh please, you know that it was MUCH stronger in the Eastern block, such as in a Russia, with it's "Third Rome".  :D
Germany was the stronghold of communism before the Bolshiviks imposed communism.  It was imposed in Cuba as well, but freely chosen in Spain, Italy etc.
Nowhere has communism thrived like it did in the Soviet Empire.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2010, 03:19:37 PM »
Marixism thrived in EO countries.

Not a response. It was born in Catholic territory. Western Europe did tend to come to dominate pretty much the entire world. My point is that it was in Western Europe and thus through Catholicism and its development that these "secular" phenomena come to be. I don't think this is purely accidental.

That these post-Catholic or hyper-Catholic threads spread throughout the world is a fact. The power of these hyper-Catholicisms is truly interesting for they might have spread via the might and power of the West, but they stayed and took root pretty much everywhere they went.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2010, 03:21:56 PM »
Marixism thrived in EO countries.

Not a response. It was born in Catholic territory. Western Europe did tend to come to dominate pretty much the entire world. My point is that it was in Western Europe and thus through Catholicism and its development that these "secular" phenomena come to be. I don't think this is purely accidental.

That these post-Catholic or hyper-Catholic threads spread throughout the world is a fact. The power of these hyper-Catholicisms is truly interesting for they might have spread via the might and power of the West, but they stayed and took root pretty much everywhere they went.
Hmm. silly response. Especially when it communism thrived in the largest Eastern Orthodox Countries in the world.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2010, 03:26:11 PM »
Agreed. I think that moderate Muslims can fruitfully work with Catholics against secularism.

Ain't nothing wrong with a little secularism to get the grey matter hoppin' about :)

Offline recent convert

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2010, 03:30:08 PM »
I am not here to blame any Chrisitan group for what political systems emerged in what nations they were dominant. I just think entering into any alliance with any Islamic group is unwise & should be avoided as should any invective in determining to do so.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 03:30:33 PM by recent convert »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2010, 03:30:49 PM »
Marixism thrived in EO countries.

Not a response. It was born in Catholic territory. Western Europe did tend to come to dominate pretty much the entire world. My point is that it was in Western Europe and thus through Catholicism and its development that these "secular" phenomena come to be. I don't think this is purely accidental.

That these post-Catholic or hyper-Catholic threads spread throughout the world is a fact. The power of these hyper-Catholicisms is truly interesting for they might have spread via the might and power of the West, but they stayed and took root pretty much everywhere they went.
Hmm. silly response. Especially when it communism thrived in the largest Eastern Orthodox Countries in the world.

You still are missing the point. I am not saying it is not powerful. It certainly is and that is another question and fascinating one as I have already written.

All secular forms were birthed through Catholicism and perhaps are more essentially what Catholicism is, hence my labeling them hyper-Catholicism.

The attractive nature of these hyper-Catholicisms is again fascinating, but not what I am asking about nor suggesting.

Again probably not the place to discuss this, especially if it is going to be limited to ignoring my point and naming places where hypo-Catholicism  ;) did not flourish or even exist and where its more mature and essentials forms now do.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2010, 03:32:10 PM »
Marixism thrived in EO countries.

Not a response. It was born in Catholic territory. Western Europe did tend to come to dominate pretty much the entire world. My point is that it was in Western Europe and thus through Catholicism and its development that these "secular" phenomena come to be. I don't think this is purely accidental.

That these post-Catholic or hyper-Catholic threads spread throughout the world is a fact. The power of these hyper-Catholicisms is truly interesting for they might have spread via the might and power of the West, but they stayed and took root pretty much everywhere they went.
Hmm. silly response. Especially when it communism thrived in the largest Eastern Orthodox Countries in the world.

You still are missing the point. I am not saying it is not powerful. It certainly is and that is another question and fascinating one as I have already written.

All secular forms were birthed through Catholicism and perhaps are more essentially what Catholicism is, hence my labeling them hyper-Catholicism.

The attractive nature of these hyper-Catholicisms is again fascinating, but not what I am asking about nor suggesting.

Again probably not the place to discuss this, especially if it is going to be limited to ignoring my point and naming places where hypo-Catholicism  ;) did not flourish or even exist and where its more mature and essentials forms now do.
If you wanna follow this stupid line of thought, let's do it and apply it to the EO Church. Since you believe the the EO Church birthed the Catholic Church, and Catholicism is really secularism, then the EO Church is the source of secularism.
Fun game huh.
Or, evil communist dicatators were baptized orthodox, so the Eastern Orthodox Church is the sources of evil dictatorship.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 03:33:02 PM by Papist »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2010, 03:33:37 PM »
I am not here to blame any Chrisitan group for what political systems emerged in what nations they were dominant. I just think entering into any alliance with any Islamic group is unwise & should be avoided as should any invective in determining to do so.

Since when on the internet did the topic of a thread have to have anything to do with what the thread ends up being about?

Muslims really aren't that scary by the way. I eat with an Islamic group frequently. A couple a great guys I work with. Here is the smiley to drive home the point that was said in jest  ;).
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2010, 03:34:54 PM »
Marixism thrived in EO countries.

Not a response. It was born in Catholic territory. Western Europe did tend to come to dominate pretty much the entire world. My point is that it was in Western Europe and thus through Catholicism and its development that these "secular" phenomena come to be. I don't think this is purely accidental.

That these post-Catholic or hyper-Catholic threads spread throughout the world is a fact. The power of these hyper-Catholicisms is truly interesting for they might have spread via the might and power of the West, but they stayed and took root pretty much everywhere they went.
Hmm. silly response. Especially when it communism thrived in the largest Eastern Orthodox Countries in the world.

You still are missing the point. I am not saying it is not powerful. It certainly is and that is another question and fascinating one as I have already written.

All secular forms were birthed through Catholicism and perhaps are more essentially what Catholicism is, hence my labeling them hyper-Catholicism.

The attractive nature of these hyper-Catholicisms is again fascinating, but not what I am asking about nor suggesting.

Again probably not the place to discuss this, especially if it is going to be limited to ignoring my point and naming places where hypo-Catholicism  ;) did not flourish or even exist and where its more mature and essentials forms now do.
If you wanna follow this stupid line of thought, let's do it and apply it to the EO Church. Since you believe the the EO Church birthed the Catholic Church, and Catholicism is really secularism, then the EO Church is the source of secularism.
Fun game huh.
Or, evil communist dicatators were baptized orthodox, so the Eastern Orthodox Church is the sources of evil dictatorship.

I don't necessarily believe what you said I did. Don't assume. And it is not a stupid line of thought.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2010, 03:35:30 PM »
Marixism thrived in EO countries.

Not a response. It was born in Catholic territory. Western Europe did tend to come to dominate pretty much the entire world. My point is that it was in Western Europe and thus through Catholicism and its development that these "secular" phenomena come to be. I don't think this is purely accidental.

That these post-Catholic or hyper-Catholic threads spread throughout the world is a fact. The power of these hyper-Catholicisms is truly interesting for they might have spread via the might and power of the West, but they stayed and took root pretty much everywhere they went.
Hmm. silly response. Especially when it communism thrived in the largest Eastern Orthodox Countries in the world.

You still are missing the point. I am not saying it is not powerful. It certainly is and that is another question and fascinating one as I have already written.

All secular forms were birthed through Catholicism and perhaps are more essentially what Catholicism is, hence my labeling them hyper-Catholicism.

The attractive nature of these hyper-Catholicisms is again fascinating, but not what I am asking about nor suggesting.

Again probably not the place to discuss this, especially if it is going to be limited to ignoring my point and naming places where hypo-Catholicism  ;) did not flourish or even exist and where its more mature and essentials forms now do.
If you wanna follow this stupid line of thought, let's do it and apply it to the EO Church. Since you believe the the EO Church birthed the Catholic Church, and Catholicism is really secularism, then the EO Church is the source of secularism.
Fun game huh.
Or, evil communist dicatators were baptized orthodox, so the Eastern Orthodox Church is the sources of evil dictatorship.

I don't necessarily believe what you said I did. Don't assume. And it is not a stupid line of thought.
It's an extremely stupid line of thought.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2010, 03:39:43 PM »
So is sharia a viable form of morality in the eyes of Rome?
No.
One could say the thing about Orthodox Jewish law, but still, there would be areas in which Catholics and Orthodox Jews could work together.
Agreed. I think that moderate Muslims can fruitfully work with Catholics against secularism.

I can think of some countries in the Middle East that could use some more secularism.

Offline dcommini

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2010, 03:52:18 PM »
Marixism thrived in EO countries.

Not a response. It was born in Catholic territory. Western Europe did tend to come to dominate pretty much the entire world. My point is that it was in Western Europe and thus through Catholicism and its development that these "secular" phenomena come to be. I don't think this is purely accidental.

That these post-Catholic or hyper-Catholic threads spread throughout the world is a fact. The power of these hyper-Catholicisms is truly interesting for they might have spread via the might and power of the West, but they stayed and took root pretty much everywhere they went.
Hmm. silly response. Especially when it communism thrived in the largest Eastern Orthodox Countries in the world.

You still are missing the point. I am not saying it is not powerful. It certainly is and that is another question and fascinating one as I have already written.

All secular forms were birthed through Catholicism and perhaps are more essentially what Catholicism is, hence my labeling them hyper-Catholicism.

The attractive nature of these hyper-Catholicisms is again fascinating, but not what I am asking about nor suggesting.

Again probably not the place to discuss this, especially if it is going to be limited to ignoring my point and naming places where hypo-Catholicism  ;) did not flourish or even exist and where its more mature and essentials forms now do.
If you wanna follow this stupid line of thought, let's do it and apply it to the EO Church. Since you believe the the EO Church birthed the Catholic Church, and Catholicism is really secularism, then the EO Church is the source of secularism.
Fun game huh.
Or, evil communist dicatators were baptized orthodox, so the Eastern Orthodox Church is the sources of evil dictatorship.

I don't necessarily believe what you said I did. Don't assume. And it is not a stupid line of thought.
It's an extremely stupid line of thought.

Children, could you please let the adults discuss things? Thank you. ;)
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2010, 03:59:28 PM »
Marixism thrived in EO countries.

Not a response. It was born in Catholic territory. Western Europe did tend to come to dominate pretty much the entire world. My point is that it was in Western Europe and thus through Catholicism and its development that these "secular" phenomena come to be. I don't think this is purely accidental.

That these post-Catholic or hyper-Catholic threads spread throughout the world is a fact. The power of these hyper-Catholicisms is truly interesting for they might have spread via the might and power of the West, but they stayed and took root pretty much everywhere they went.
Hmm. silly response. Especially when it communism thrived in the largest Eastern Orthodox Countries in the world.

You still are missing the point. I am not saying it is not powerful. It certainly is and that is another question and fascinating one as I have already written.

All secular forms were birthed through Catholicism and perhaps are more essentially what Catholicism is, hence my labeling them hyper-Catholicism.

The attractive nature of these hyper-Catholicisms is again fascinating, but not what I am asking about nor suggesting.

Again probably not the place to discuss this, especially if it is going to be limited to ignoring my point and naming places where hypo-Catholicism  ;) did not flourish or even exist and where its more mature and essentials forms now do.
If you wanna follow this stupid line of thought, let's do it and apply it to the EO Church. Since you believe the the EO Church birthed the Catholic Church, and Catholicism is really secularism, then the EO Church is the source of secularism.
Fun game huh.
Or, evil communist dicatators were baptized orthodox, so the Eastern Orthodox Church is the sources of evil dictatorship.

I don't necessarily believe what you said I did. Don't assume. And it is not a stupid line of thought.
It's an extremely stupid line of thought.

Children, could you please let the adults discuss things? Thank you. ;)

Well we all can agree that our God can beat up their God, right?

OK, that is the last remark made out of mere irony, attempt at humor, or what might be taken for sarcasm. Please let me know if I post otherwise.

Mea culpa. And thank you.
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2010, 05:15:13 PM »
We don't need to forge alliances with the hybrid pagan-heretic religion of Islam. It will only be to our detriment in the end. Our goal is to make every human on earth a Saint. Islam's goal is to institute Sharia law (the manifestation of Islamic belief in everyday life) worldwide. We have nothing in common with them, except for the most surface and inconsequential moral ideals.

There are too many do-gooders and useful idiots in the west who are willingly being deceived by Islam. Deception is one of their most useful tools, and they use it in cases just like these. Methinks Pope Benedict needs to actually read the Koran and learn about things like abrogation and taqiyya. Here's a brief primer.

Any partnership we forge with Islam will bite us in the end. It's not worth it. Christianity is the truth and we should be converting people to Christianity, not just whatever garden variety theism suits someone's fancy.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 05:18:35 PM by bogdan »

Offline Papist

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2010, 05:20:12 PM »
We don't need to forge alliances with the hybrid pagan-heretic religion of Islam. It will only be to our detriment in the end. Our goal is to make every human on earth a Saint. Islam's goal is to institute Sharia law (the manifestation of Islamic belief in everyday life) worldwide. We have nothing in common with them, except for the most surface and inconsequential moral ideals.

There are too many do-gooders and useful idiots in the west who are willingly being deceived by Islam. Deception is one of their most useful tools, and they use it in cases just like these. Methinks Pope Benedict needs to actually read the Koran and learn about things like abrogation and taqiyya. Here's a brief primer.

Any partnership we forge with Islam will bite us in the end. It's not worth it. Christianity is the truth and we should be converting people to Christianity, not just whatever garden variety theism suits someone's fancy.
I don't think that anyone is suggesting that we convert people to Islam.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2010, 08:09:20 PM »
I don't see why some people seem to be so concerned with the idea of an alliance between Christians and Muslims on certain things.  I would, in fact, like to see more inter-religious co-operation on things like opposition to abortion and gay marriage between Muslims, Catholics, Orthodox, the various forms of Protestants, and Jews.  That is not to suggest that you have to say "Orthodoxy and Islam are practically one in the same, we agree on everything, and all the Muslims will go to heaven."  Most people who would promote an inter-religious alliance combating things like secularism would NOT also suggest that there should be no attempt at conversion of the Muslims or the Jews or the Protestants.  I mean, it is like how libertarians will often work with liberals on many social issues, and with conservatives on many economic ones.  This does not mean that libertarians do not want to convince liberals or conservatives of libertarianism, but merely that instead of fighting them even when both groups agree, it is better to work with them when they agree.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Catholic-Islam Alliance
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2010, 09:26:30 PM »
I don't see why some people seem to be so concerned with the idea of an alliance between Christians and Muslims on certain things.  I would, in fact, like to see more inter-religious co-operation on things like opposition to abortion and gay marriage between Muslims, Catholics, Orthodox, the various forms of Protestants, and Jews.  That is not to suggest that you have to say "Orthodoxy and Islam are practically one in the same, we agree on everything, and all the Muslims will go to heaven."  Most people who would promote an inter-religious alliance combating things like secularism would NOT also suggest that there should be no attempt at conversion of the Muslims or the Jews or the Protestants.  I mean, it is like how libertarians will often work with liberals on many social issues, and with conservatives on many economic ones.  This does not mean that libertarians do not want to convince liberals or conservatives of libertarianism, but merely that instead of fighting them even when both groups agree, it is better to work with them when they agree.
Exactly.
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