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GiC
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« on: December 08, 2010, 12:24:30 AM »

I had expected someone to create a topic for this subject today, but since no one has, I cannot let this day pass unnoticed.

I believe FDR's response to this cowardly and dastardly attack by the Empire of Japan is an appropriate reminder of the significance of this day.

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Mr. Vice President, Mr. Speaker, Members of the Senate, and of the House of Representatives:

Yesterday, December 7th, 1941 -- a date which will live in infamy -- the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.

The United States was at peace with that nation and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with its government and its emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific.

Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in the American island of Oahu, the Japanese ambassador to the United States and his colleague delivered to our Secretary of State a formal reply to a recent American message. And while this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or of armed attack.

It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago. During the intervening time, the Japanese government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace.

The attack yesterday on the Hawaiian islands has caused severe damage to American naval and military forces. I regret to tell you that very many American lives have been lost. In addition, American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu.

Yesterday, the Japanese government also launched an attack against Malaya.

Last night, Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong.

Last night, Japanese forces attacked Guam.

Last night, Japanese forces attacked the Philippine Islands.

Last night, the Japanese attacked Wake Island.

And this morning, the Japanese attacked Midway Island.

Japan has, therefore, undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday and today speak for themselves. The people of the United States have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation.

As commander in chief of the Army and Navy, I have directed that all measures be taken for our defense. But always will our whole nation remember the character of the onslaught against us.

No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory.

I believe that I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but will make it very certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us.

Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory, and our interests are in grave danger.

With confidence in our armed forces, with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph -- so help us God.

I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, December 7th, 1941, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese empire.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/fdrpearlharbor.htm
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 12:24:54 AM by GiC » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2010, 12:55:41 AM »

I'm with you there GIC.
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2010, 04:10:11 AM »

Where's Perl Harbor? Is that somewhere in one of my programming books? Wink

My grandfather survived the attack on Pearl Harbor and died 40 years and one day later--yes, that makes today the anniversary of his death. May his memory be eternal!
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2010, 09:20:41 AM »

It's interesting to note that because of the way governments work, Canada's declaration of war against Japan actually preceded that of the US by several hours. Very true: a date which will live in infamy.
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2010, 11:43:17 PM »

Where's Perl Harbor? Is that somewhere in one of my programming books? Wink

My grandfather survived the attack on Pearl Harbor and died 40 years and one day later--yes, that makes today the anniversary of his death. May his memory be eternal!

May he rest in Peace, PtA.  That is very interesting. If it's not too personal, may I ask if he was on a ship and if so which one?  I ask out of my historical interests.

If you prefer to not say, I apologize for asking.

Ebor
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2010, 12:00:50 AM »

...so help us God.

Uh-oh.
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2010, 12:09:28 AM »

I'm glad others remember today, as there aren't many survivors with us. Thanks for starting this, GIC!   My grandfather was also at Pearl Harbor, and I am extremely grateful for his and all veterans' service to our country.  It's comforting to know that people honor their sacrifices.  May we never forget!
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2010, 12:16:55 AM »

Memory eternal.
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2010, 12:47:29 AM »

Where's Perl Harbor? Is that somewhere in one of my programming books? Wink

My grandfather survived the attack on Pearl Harbor and died 40 years and one day later--yes, that makes today the anniversary of his death. May his memory be eternal!

Just a typo...seeing how you have the ability to change the title, why not make it right? Wink

And may your grandfather's contributions not be forgotten.
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2010, 12:51:14 AM »

Where's Perl Harbor? Is that somewhere in one of my programming books? Wink

My grandfather survived the attack on Pearl Harbor and died 40 years and one day later--yes, that makes today the anniversary of his death. May his memory be eternal!

May he rest in Peace, PtA.  That is very interesting. If it's not too personal, may I ask if he was on a ship and if so which one?  I ask out of my historical interests.

If you prefer to not say, I apologize for asking.

Ebor
The tradition in my family is that he was transferred from the Arizona to the Pennsylvania within weeks to a couple of months before the attack. Fortunately, the latter was in dry dock on December 7, so, even though it did take some enemy fire, it and its crew didn't meet the same fate as the former.
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2010, 12:55:40 AM »

Where's Perl Harbor? Is that somewhere in one of my programming books? Wink

My grandfather survived the attack on Pearl Harbor and died 40 years and one day later--yes, that makes today the anniversary of his death. May his memory be eternal!

Just a typo...seeing how you have the ability to change the title, why not make it right? Wink
There. Fixed it for ya. Cool

And may your grandfather's contributions not be forgotten.
Thank you. I have one thing that will always remind me of him. I was given his name.
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2010, 05:17:59 PM »

For all of those killed at Pearl Harbor, Memory Eternal.
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2010, 03:37:30 PM »

I don't know if I would consider the attack any more cowardly than any other aerial bombardment (at least theirs were against military targets) or preemptive attack.  But none the less, may the memories of the lives lost on both sides of that war be eternal.
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« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2010, 04:27:17 PM »

Memory eternal.

My grandfather (+1990) wasn't at Pearl Harbor (being only 16 at the time), but he enlisted in the Marines later and fought the Japanese at Guadalcanal and Iwo Jima. He finished the war in China.

People would often call him a hero, but he would always respond, "I'm no hero. The real heroes are in the ground." I would add that they are also under the sea.



Memory eternal.
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2010, 07:33:01 PM »

The tradition in my family is that he was transferred from the Arizona to the Pennsylvania within weeks to a couple of months before the attack. Fortunately, the latter was in dry dock on December 7, so, even though it did take some enemy fire, it and its crew didn't meet the same fate as the former.

Thank you.  It is always interesting to learn more.

Ebor
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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2010, 07:37:18 PM »

I don't know if I would consider the attack any more cowardly than any other aerial bombardment (at least theirs were against military targets) or preemptive attack.  But none the less, may the memories of the lives lost on both sides of that war be eternal.


I would not categorize the attack on Pearl Harbour as cowardly either.  If anyone is interested I can recommend some books on WWII in the Pacific that look at both sides.  The situation between Japan and the US in the latter part of the 19th century and the first four decades of the 20th is (like much in international relations) complicated.

May all who fought rest in peace, indeed.

Ebor
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2010, 07:39:47 PM »

It was an undeclared act of war, no political or economic situation justifies that. Had war been formally declared prior to the attack, it would have been a perfectly acceptable and commendable offensive, but that's just not the case. So, 'cowardly' was the polite way to put it.
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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2010, 07:42:15 PM »

I don't know if I would consider the attack any more cowardly than any other aerial bombardment (at least theirs were against military targets) or preemptive attack.  But none the less, may the memories of the lives lost on both sides of that war be eternal.


I would not categorize the attack on Pearl Harbour as cowardly either.
Nor would I. If Japan were to conquer the western side of the Pacific basin as they sought to do, they would have had to realize that they would eventually cross American interests and been required to deal with the might of the American military machine. Why not disable it preemptively by taking out as much of our naval forces as they could in one surprise attack? Unfortunately for Japan, the strategy did nothing but backfire in their faces.
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« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2010, 08:06:39 PM »

It was an undeclared act of war, no political or economic situation justifies that. Had war been formally declared prior to the attack, it would have been a perfectly acceptable and commendable offensive, but that's just not the case. So, 'cowardly' was the polite way to put it.

Why is there a need to formally declare war??
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« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2010, 08:19:00 PM »

I don't know if I would consider the attack any more cowardly than any other aerial bombardment (at least theirs were against military targets) or preemptive attack.  But none the less, may the memories of the lives lost on both sides of that war be eternal.


I would not categorize the attack on Pearl Harbour as cowardly either.
Nor would I. If Japan were to conquer the western side of the Pacific basin as they sought to do, they would have had to realize that they would eventually cross American interests and been required to deal with the might of the American military machine. Why not disable it preemptively by taking out as much of our naval forces as they could in one surprise attack? Unfortunately for Japan, the strategy did nothing but backfire in their faces.

I can tell you plainly that there is no "if" about it.  The Hawaiian Islands and the situation between Japan and the United States was being considered in Japan at least from the 1890s.  It was not just a case of the geographical position.  At one point about 40% of the population of the islands were "Doho" that is people from Japan or their descendants and there were strong connections between the two groups of islands.  The way that the U.S. took over the islands from the Hawaiian Crown (which was a blot and a shame imho) was noticed by Japan as well.   

However, contra some other ideas, it was not FDR who somehow goaded or forced Japan to attack.  The situation is one that covers decades and has many different aspects.  Would you be interested in some book titles?

Ebor 
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« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2010, 08:39:48 PM »

It was an undeclared act of war, no political or economic situation justifies that. Had war been formally declared prior to the attack, it would have been a perfectly acceptable and commendable offensive, but that's just not the case. So, 'cowardly' was the polite way to put it.

Why is there a need to formally declare war??

Well, ignoring the customary rules of war for the time being, because they were a signatory to the Hague Convention of 1907.
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« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2010, 08:41:18 PM »

It was an undeclared act of war, no political or economic situation justifies that. Had war been formally declared prior to the attack, it would have been a perfectly acceptable and commendable offensive, but that's just not the case. So, 'cowardly' was the polite way to put it.

Why is there a need to formally declare war??

As I understand matters, in the twentieth century it had to do with the Hague Conventions for the "Pacific Settlement of International Disputes".
http://www.pca-cpa.org/upload/files/1907ENG.pdf


 However, there are certainly many incidents of hostilities without formal declaration.

In the case of Pearl Harbour, the "fourteen part message" that was sent to the Japanese embassy to be delivered to the U.S. government was delayed.  Therefor word of the attack in Hawaii reached Washington before the message could be delivered.  And it was not unreasonable for Japan to be concerned since the Pacific Fleet had been moved to Hawaii only in early 1941.  

Ebor
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« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2010, 08:58:24 PM »

It was an undeclared act of war, no political or economic situation justifies that. Had war been formally declared prior to the attack, it would have been a perfectly acceptable and commendable offensive, but that's just not the case. So, 'cowardly' was the polite way to put it.

Why is there a need to formally declare war??

As I understand matters, in the twentieth century it had to do with the Hague Conventions for the "Pacific Settlement of International Disputes".
http://www.pca-cpa.org/upload/files/1907ENG.pdf


 However, there are certainly many incidents of hostilities without formal declaration.

In the case of Pearl Harbour, the "fourteen part message" that was sent to the Japanese embassy to be delivered to the U.S. government was delayed.  Therefor word of the attack in Hawaii reached Washington before the message could be delivered.  And it was not unreasonable for Japan to be concerned since the Pacific Fleet had been moved to Hawaii only in early 1941.  

Ebor

The relevant part of the treaty is Section 3 Article I:

'The Contracting Powers recognize that hostilities between themselves must not commence without previous and explicit warning, in the form either of a reasoned declaration of war or of an ultimatum with conditional declaration of war.'

Plus, the 'fourteen part message' was not itself a declaration of war, recent historical findings have suggested that the Imperial Navy petitioned strongly against any declaration of war prior to the attack, apparently they succeeded in convincing the government of their position. So they defied a treaty they had signed in good faith in order to lessen the resistance, which even with a formal declaration of war would have been minimal, to contribute to the safety and security of their forces in their illegal attack. That seems to be more than enough grounds for a charge of cowardice.

Not saying that the attack wasn't politically or economically justified, only that the manner in which it was carried out undermines all other issues.
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« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2010, 10:20:25 PM »

I believe FDR's response to this cowardly and dastardly attack by the Empire of Japan is an appropriate reminder of the significance of this day.
Congratulations on your patriotism. But some people are questioning whether or not  the US   
government told  the truth about the war in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the attack on Pearl Harbor? Please see:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html?q=pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

Also,   please see a recent speech of Ron Paul:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/10/ron-paul-wikileaks-defense_n_795014.html
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« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2010, 01:09:52 AM »

It was an undeclared act of war, no political or economic situation justifies that. Had war been formally declared prior to the attack, it would have been a perfectly acceptable and commendable offensive, but that's just not the case. So, 'cowardly' was the polite way to put it.

Why is there a need to formally declare war??

As I understand matters, in the twentieth century it had to do with the Hague Conventions for the "Pacific Settlement of International Disputes".
http://www.pca-cpa.org/upload/files/1907ENG.pdf


 However, there are certainly many incidents of hostilities without formal declaration.

In the case of Pearl Harbour, the "fourteen part message" that was sent to the Japanese embassy to be delivered to the U.S. government was delayed.  Therefor word of the attack in Hawaii reached Washington before the message could be delivered.  And it was not unreasonable for Japan to be concerned since the Pacific Fleet had been moved to Hawaii only in early 1941.  

Ebor

The relevant part of the treaty is Section 3 Article I:

'The Contracting Powers recognize that hostilities between themselves must not commence without previous and explicit warning, in the form either of a reasoned declaration of war or of an ultimatum with conditional declaration of war.'

Plus, the 'fourteen part message' was not itself a declaration of war, recent historical findings have suggested that the Imperial Navy petitioned strongly against any declaration of war prior to the attack, apparently they succeeded in convincing the government of their position. So they defied a treaty they had signed in good faith in order to lessen the resistance, which even with a formal declaration of war would have been minimal, to contribute to the safety and security of their forces in their illegal attack. That seems to be more than enough grounds for a charge of cowardice.

Not saying that the attack wasn't politically or economically justified, only that the manner in which it was carried out undermines all other issues.

I'm not going to argue about the propriety or legality of the Japanese attack, you and I have the same opinions regarding declaration of war.  I will argue that it was not cowardly.  For one, I will never ever call a man who can pilot a dive bomber a coward.  It takes a lot of guts to drop a perfectly good plane into a dive and remain steady enough to target the bomb.  Then do all this flying into a naval base with AA defenses.  Now let the enemy know you are coming?  That's not brave, that's suicidal.  The Japanese were plenty ready to commit suicide, but generally after they tried to fight and then lost.

In the end, the winner decides whether or not things were done properly.  If the US had signed an unconditional surrender document on the Yamato, then I think Pearl Harbour would have been a day to live on in glory rather than infamy.  As it was, they lost.  Vae victus.
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« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2010, 01:14:23 AM »

Granted pearl harbor was a pretty nasty thing however so was Hiroshima and Nagasaki, if not more so.
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« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2010, 08:18:40 AM »

I believe FDR's response to this cowardly and dastardly attack by the Empire of Japan is an appropriate reminder of the significance of this day.
Congratulations on your patriotism. But some people are questioning whether or not  the US   
government told  the truth about the war in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the attack on Pearl Harbor? Please see:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html?q=pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

I've been looking into these accusations a bit recently, and not surprisingly a search for "Stennitt" and "McCollum" on this page produces hits in spite of the fact that reviews by real historians of Day of Deceit were deeply negative. Stennitt for whatever reason bought into the whole "Short and Kimmel were framed" argument (helped along by one of Kimmel's relatives, though Stennitt doesn't let on to that), but if you look at what the people near the top said after the war, their point was that there was always some expectation of a Japanese attack on Pearl, and that they had expected the commanders there to be on the alert all the time, not just because of an imminent attack. Likewise, McCollum's analysis is certainly real, but the notion that FDR even saw it is unproven, and FDR only ever "carried out" six of McCollum's eight steps.

The claim that the fleet was detected as it approached is disputed by all but the conspiracy-minded, and the evidence is strongly against it. Claims of radio detection are denied by the Japanese as well as by those on the scene; they testify that the fleet maintained radio silence. The claim that we could read the JN-25 code is also untrue; the code was changed from time to time and had to be re-cracked each time this was done. It was changed not long beofre Pearl Harbor, and it took until May 1942 before the US could read it again. THAT proved crucial to the Battle of Midway, but in December 1941, the US could read diplomatic traffic but not Japanese naval traffic.

I came across an article in Time by the Army chief of intel at the time which provides an interesting picture of the political problems. FDR certainly did want to be able to intervene in Europe, and there was always, as I said above, some anticipation that Japan might attack Pearl Harbor. But he held that it was a mistake for Japan to make that attack, because as long as they did not, the US could not respond in the Pacific, not even if they took other territory in the region. Likewise, if the Germans hadn't declared war on the US FDR would have been stuck mounting an all-out response to Japan alone. I beleive it was when Ribbentrop was interrogated after the war, saying that they had to observe the Tripartite Treaty, the interpreter asked on his own, "Why did you choose to observe that one when you had broken all the others?"
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