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Author Topic: How to consider Roman Catholics  (Read 7920 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alveus Lacuna
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« on: December 07, 2010, 12:28:26 AM »

I consider them as all members of the true faith with apparent misunderstandings between them.

And it's cool if I consider the Roman Catholics this way too, right?
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« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2010, 12:45:28 AM »

I personally do not understand why you would. If I did, I would still be one. There would have been no reason for me to become Orthodox. It also explains why people like Papist, lubeltri, and elijahmaria are still Roman Catholics: they believe they are a part of the true faith. I can respect and admire certain aspects of their faith, devotion and traditions without believing that they are a part of the true faith.

BTW, is that quote in context? It seems that Ortho_cat is talking about our non-Chalcedonian friends.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2010, 01:11:43 AM »

I consider them as all members of the true faith with apparent misunderstandings between them.

And it's cool if I consider the Roman Catholics this way too, right?

Not if it's heresy.
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2010, 01:15:08 AM »

Well now that this post has been removed into an exclusive context, the sarcasm and point of the post will probably be lost on posters perusing the threads.
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« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2010, 08:42:46 AM »

I've never been very good at discerning sarcasm... Tongue
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Papist
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« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2010, 12:27:13 PM »

I personally do not understand why you would. If I did, I would still be one. There would have been no reason for me to become Orthodox. It also explains why people like Papist, lubeltri, and elijahmaria are still Roman Catholics: they believe they are a part of the true faith. I can respect and admire certain aspects of their faith, devotion and traditions without believing that they are a part of the true faith.

BTW, is that quote in context? It seems that Ortho_cat is talking about our non-Chalcedonian friends.

In Christ,
Andrew
Yup. I believe that the Catholic Church (the communion to which I belong) is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus.
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« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2010, 12:42:06 PM »

A very wide and generic question...
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« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2010, 01:09:58 PM »

I personally do not understand why you would. If I did, I would still be one. There would have been no reason for me to become Orthodox. It also explains why people like Papist, lubeltri, and elijahmaria are still Roman Catholics: they believe they are a part of the true faith. I can respect and admire certain aspects of their faith, devotion and traditions without believing that they are a part of the true faith.

BTW, is that quote in context? It seems that Ortho_cat is talking about our non-Chalcedonian friends.

In Christ,
Andrew

I believe the same thing about Orthodoxy.  The reason I don't convert is that I don't believe either one is heretical, so there's nothing that I have to recant.  As long as Orthodoxy tries to force me to recant anything that I believe to be a part of revelation, then I will remain where I am.

M.
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« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2010, 02:37:12 PM »

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. To me this means that where the Church is, there is the fullness of dogmatic truth. I do not accept Elijahmaria's claim that there are no real dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, chiefly because to do so would be to reject the consensus of the Holy Fathers on the issue.

Perhaps I will be able to judge Roman Catholics when I have made sense of the following two verses:

Quote from: Matthew 12:30 (KJV)
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Quote from: Luke 9:50 (KJV)
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Until then, I will just try to follow the path of repentance laid out for me by the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

I wish all the Roman Catholics on here well.

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« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2010, 02:42:12 PM »

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. To me this means that where the Church is, there is the fullness of dogmatic truth. I do not accept Elijahmaria's claim that there are no real dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, chiefly because to do so would be to reject the consensus of the Holy Fathers on the issue.

And yet most of the posters on here accept that there are no real dogmatic differences between the Orthodox and the Mono(Mia)physites. I'm just pointing out how selective everyone's being. At least the Roman Catholics actually accept Chalcedon.
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« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2010, 02:58:34 PM »

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. To me this means that where the Church is, there is the fullness of dogmatic truth. I do not accept Elijahmaria's claim that there are no real dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, chiefly because to do so would be to reject the consensus of the Holy Fathers on the issue.

And yet most of the posters on here accept that there are no real dogmatic differences between the Orthodox and the Mono(Mia)physites. I'm just pointing out how selective everyone's being. At least the Roman Catholics actually accept Chalcedon.

Yes; at least they do. Glory to God! I, for one, do not accept either that there are no dogmatic differences between us and the non-Chalcedonians. Though I find the issue more confusing; the confusion, I think, only shows the inadequacy of my reason and understanding. I have to defer to the Holy Fathers. As far as "considering" the non-Chalcedonians or the Roman Catholics, ISTM we should consider them with discernment and love. Since I am not very loving or discerning, the more I think about it, the less I feel like considering them at all. I mean considering in terms of judging. Sorry if I'm not being very helpful.

I hope all our Roman Catholic friends on here will be saved.

I know Orthodoxy is the truth, but I also know that truth calls me to be humble, and that I fail in this every moment.
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1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
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« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2010, 06:48:15 PM »

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. To me this means that where the Church is, there is the fullness of dogmatic truth. I do not accept Elijahmaria's claim that there are no real dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, chiefly because to do so would be to reject the consensus of the Holy Fathers on the issue.

And yet most of the posters on here accept that there are no real dogmatic differences between the Orthodox and the Mono(Mia)physites. I'm just pointing out how selective everyone's being. At least the Roman Catholics actually accept Chalcedon.

You do not consider OO closer in faith to the EO than the RC?
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« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2010, 07:11:40 PM »

Consider us adorable.  Grin
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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2010, 07:19:23 PM »

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. To me this means that where the Church is, there is the fullness of dogmatic truth. I do not accept Elijahmaria's claim that there are no real dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, chiefly because to do so would be to reject the consensus of the Holy Fathers on the issue.

And yet most of the posters on here accept that there are no real dogmatic differences between the Orthodox and the Mono(Mia)physites. I'm just pointing out how selective everyone's being. At least the Roman Catholics actually accept Chalcedon.

Oh come now. Even I, one of the most Anti-Chalcedonian posters on here, accept that the two of us have far more in common than you do with the Romanists. The fact that we do not pay lip service to Chalcedon is a rather minor difference compared to all the deviations of Rome.
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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2010, 08:10:03 PM »

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. To me this means that where the Church is, there is the fullness of dogmatic truth. I do not accept Elijahmaria's claim that there are no real dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, chiefly because to do so would be to reject the consensus of the Holy Fathers on the issue.

And yet most of the posters on here accept that there are no real dogmatic differences between the Orthodox and the Mono(Mia)physites. I'm just pointing out how selective everyone's being. At least the Roman Catholics actually accept Chalcedon.

Oh come now. Even I, one of the most Anti-Chalcedonian posters on here, accept that the two of us have far more in common than you do with the Romanists. The fact that we do not pay lip service to Chalcedon is a rather minor difference compared to all the deviations of Rome.
There's that shadow organization again.
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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2010, 08:25:08 PM »

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. To me this means that where the Church is, there is the fullness of dogmatic truth. I do not accept Elijahmaria's claim that there are no real dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, chiefly because to do so would be to reject the consensus of the Holy Fathers on the issue.

And yet most of the posters on here accept that there are no real dogmatic differences between the Orthodox and the Mono(Mia)physites. I'm just pointing out how selective everyone's being. At least the Roman Catholics actually accept Chalcedon.

Oh come now. Even I, one of the most Anti-Chalcedonian posters on here, accept that the two of us have far more in common than you do with the Romanists. The fact that we do not pay lip service to Chalcedon is a rather minor difference compared to all the deviations of Rome.

My sentiments exactly (exact for the anti-chalcedonian part) Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2010, 08:35:41 PM »

Consider us adorable.  Grin

Definitely.   Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2010, 08:37:18 PM »

Mono(Mia)physites

That's a new one.  What's a Mono(Mia)physite?
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« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2010, 08:40:41 PM »

Mono(Mia)physites

That's a new one.  What's a Mono(Mia)physite?


Extra-strength!
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« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2010, 08:45:31 PM »

Mono(Mia)physites

That's a new one.  What's a Mono(Mia)physite?


Extra-strength!
You always post the best pictures.
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« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2010, 08:48:19 PM »

Mono(Mia)physites

That's a new one.  What's a Mono(Mia)physite?


Extra-strength!
You always post the best pictures.

It's my stress relief.  Grin
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« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2010, 10:01:56 PM »

Consider us fully orthodox.
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« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2010, 12:13:35 AM »

Consider us fully orthodox.

No way!  Undecided
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« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2010, 12:14:40 AM »

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. To me this means that where the Church is, there is the fullness of dogmatic truth. I do not accept Elijahmaria's claim that there are no real dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, chiefly because to do so would be to reject the consensus of the Holy Fathers on the issue.

And yet most of the posters on here accept that there are no real dogmatic differences between the Orthodox and the Mono(Mia)physites. I'm just pointing out how selective everyone's being. At least the Roman Catholics actually accept Chalcedon.

Oh come now. Even I, one of the most Anti-Chalcedonian posters on here, accept that the two of us have far more in common than you do with the Romanists. The fact that we do not pay lip service to Chalcedon is a rather minor difference compared to all the deviations of Rome.
There's that shadow organization again.

Stop trying to be deceptive. You know exactly what I mean.
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« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2010, 01:04:17 PM »

If I ever get to Rome I'll let you know, it's on my Bucket List...
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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2010, 01:05:58 PM »

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. To me this means that where the Church is, there is the fullness of dogmatic truth. I do not accept Elijahmaria's claim that there are no real dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, chiefly because to do so would be to reject the consensus of the Holy Fathers on the issue.

And yet most of the posters on here accept that there are no real dogmatic differences between the Orthodox and the Mono(Mia)physites. I'm just pointing out how selective everyone's being. At least the Roman Catholics actually accept Chalcedon.

Oh come now. Even I, one of the most Anti-Chalcedonian posters on here, accept that the two of us have far more in common than you do with the Romanists. The fact that we do not pay lip service to Chalcedon is a rather minor difference compared to all the deviations of Rome.
There's that shadow organization again.

Stop trying to be deceptive. You know exactly what I mean.
What an uncharitable accusation. I am not being deceptive. Just confused. I know of no group of people that call themselves "The Romanists". Is it like a new superhero team? You know, like the Justice Leaguie or The Avengers?
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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2010, 02:57:30 PM »

Consider us sacramental.  Consider us militant.  Consider us the mystical body.  Consider us triumphant.  Consider us one.  Consider us holy. Consider us catholic.  Consider us apostolic.  Consider us the fullness of Christ's Church.  Consider us communion.  Consider us ancient.  Consider us patristic.  Consider us of Tradition.  Consider us of Scripture.  Consider us active.  Consider us hesychast.  Consider us as the communion of saints.  Consider us the one true Church.





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« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2010, 03:14:26 PM »

Consider us sacramental.  Consider us militant.  Consider us the mystical body.  Consider us triumphant.  Consider us one.  Consider us holy. Consider us catholic.  Consider us apostolic.  Consider us the fullness of Christ's Church.  Consider us communion.  Consider us ancient.  Consider us patristic.  Consider us of Tradition.  Consider us of Scripture.  Consider us active.  Consider us hesychast.  Consider us as the communion of saints.  Consider us the one true Church.

Back in the 13th century they invented the comma and the "and".  Grin Cheesy
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« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2010, 03:15:41 PM »

Consider us sacramental.  Consider us militant.  Consider us the mystical body.  Consider us triumphant.  Consider us one.  Consider us holy. Consider us catholic.  Consider us apostolic.  Consider us the fullness of Christ's Church.  Consider us communion.  Consider us ancient.  Consider us patristic.  Consider us of Tradition.  Consider us of Scripture.  Consider us active.  Consider us hesychast.  Consider us as the communion of saints.  Consider us the one true Church.






That we are, the Mystical Body of Christ, the Universal Ark of Salvation.
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« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2010, 03:18:57 PM »

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. To me this means that where the Church is, there is the fullness of dogmatic truth. I do not accept Elijahmaria's claim that there are no real dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, chiefly because to do so would be to reject the consensus of the Holy Fathers on the issue.

And yet most of the posters on here accept that there are no real dogmatic differences between the Orthodox and the Mono(Mia)physites. I'm just pointing out how selective everyone's being. At least the Roman Catholics actually accept Chalcedon.

Oh come now. Even I, one of the most Anti-Chalcedonian posters on here, accept that the two of us have far more in common than you do with the Romanists. The fact that we do not pay lip service to Chalcedon is a rather minor difference compared to all the deviations of Rome.
There's that shadow organization again.

Stop trying to be deceptive. You know exactly what I mean.
What an uncharitable accusation. I am not being deceptive. Just confused. I know of no group of people that call themselves "The Romanists". Is it like a new superhero team? You know, like the Justice Leaguie or The Avengers?


You knew it was coming.  Grin
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« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2010, 03:19:48 PM »

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. To me this means that where the Church is, there is the fullness of dogmatic truth. I do not accept Elijahmaria's claim that there are no real dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, chiefly because to do so would be to reject the consensus of the Holy Fathers on the issue.

And yet most of the posters on here accept that there are no real dogmatic differences between the Orthodox and the Mono(Mia)physites. I'm just pointing out how selective everyone's being. At least the Roman Catholics actually accept Chalcedon.

Oh come now. Even I, one of the most Anti-Chalcedonian posters on here, accept that the two of us have far more in common than you do with the Romanists. The fact that we do not pay lip service to Chalcedon is a rather minor difference compared to all the deviations of Rome.
There's that shadow organization again.

Stop trying to be deceptive. You know exactly what I mean.
What an uncharitable accusation. I am not being deceptive. Just confused. I know of no group of people that call themselves "The Romanists". Is it like a new superhero team? You know, like the Justice Leaguie or The Avengers?


You knew it was coming.  Grin
Another picture that I can't see from work. Every fun internet site in the world is blocked here. lol
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« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2010, 03:40:11 PM »

What an uncharitable accusation. I am not being deceptive. Just confused. I know of no group of people that call themselves "The Romanists".

More attempts at being deceptive.

But you're not fooling me.

Yes, it is true that there is no group which self-identifies by the phrase.

In spite of that, however, I am confident that you know which group I am referring to by it.
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« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2010, 03:41:03 PM »

Consider us sacramental.  Consider us militant.  Consider us the mystical body.  Consider us triumphant.  Consider us one.  Consider us holy. Consider us catholic.  Consider us apostolic.  Consider us the fullness of Christ's Church.  Consider us communion.  Consider us ancient.  Consider us patristic.  Consider us of Tradition.  Consider us of Scripture.  Consider us active.  Consider us hesychast.  Consider us as the communion of saints.  Consider us the one true Church.

No!!  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2010, 03:51:56 PM »

Consider us sacramental.  Consider us militant.  Consider us the mystical body.  Consider us triumphant.  Consider us one.  Consider us holy. Consider us catholic.  Consider us apostolic.  Consider us the fullness of Christ's Church.  Consider us communion.  Consider us ancient.  Consider us patristic.  Consider us of Tradition.  Consider us of Scripture.  Consider us active.  Consider us hesychast.  Consider us as the communion of saints.  Consider us the one true Church.

I'm sold.
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« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2010, 03:53:51 PM »

Consider us sacramental.  Consider us militant.  Consider us the mystical body.  Consider us triumphant.  Consider us one.  Consider us holy. Consider us catholic.  Consider us apostolic.  Consider us the fullness of Christ's Church.  Consider us communion.  Consider us ancient.  Consider us patristic.  Consider us of Tradition.  Consider us of Scripture.  Consider us active.  Consider us hesychast.  Consider us as the communion of saints.  Consider us the one true Church.

I'm sold.

LOL.
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« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2010, 04:12:52 PM »

It astounds me that whenever someone on this forum disagrees with Rome, every catholic poster here jumps on it as if that person had no right to say so. Is it the "big powerful Church" mentality? Huh
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« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2010, 04:15:55 PM »

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. To me this means that where the Church is, there is the fullness of dogmatic truth. I do not accept Elijahmaria's claim that there are no real dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, chiefly because to do so would be to reject the consensus of the Holy Fathers on the issue.

And yet most of the posters on here accept that there are no real dogmatic differences between the Orthodox and the Mono(Mia)physites. I'm just pointing out how selective everyone's being. At least the Roman Catholics actually accept Chalcedon.
yes, they cite it as evidence of Ultramontanism, which shows we do not share the same Faith with them on that Council either. At least, looking at the Fourth Ecumeical Council through the lens of the Fifth Ecumenical Council, the EO and the OO see the same Faith. The Vatican, in view of its insistence of Chalcedon being the proof of papal infallibility and Ultramontanism and denying the fact of the Fifth Ecumenical Council meeting and dogmatizing over Pope Vigilius' vigorous opposition, for which the Council struck him from the diptychs, has a different faith, that of the filioque and IC.
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« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2010, 04:54:45 PM »

It astounds me that whenever someone on this forum disagrees with Rome, every catholic poster here jumps on it as if that person had no right to say so. Is it the "big powerful Church" mentality? Huh

I expect you'd like us to take the distortions of what we believe and say thank you?

Ok.

Thank you for distorting what I believe as a Catholic and what my Church teaches.  Thank you for seeing me as heterodox. 

In Christ,

M.
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« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2010, 05:25:22 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear one more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2010, 05:27:17 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes
As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2010, 05:28:17 PM »

It astounds me that whenever someone on this forum disagrees with Rome, every catholic poster here jumps on it as if that person had no right to say so. Is it the "big powerful Church" mentality? Huh

I expect you'd like us to take the distortions of what we believe and say thank you?

Ok.

Thank you for distorting what I believe as a Catholic and what my Church teaches.  Thank you for seeing me as heterodox. 

In Christ,

M.

When you insist that we believe all the same things as you do but just don't know it, someone's belifs are going to inevitably get distorted.

And, as far as I know, it's not a distortion to say that you believe communion with Rome is a crucial unity factor in the Church. Hence, Romanists.

If I go onto a Roman Catholic furum, I will inevitably be told by most people, if not everyone, that the Orthodox Church is schismatic. That fact that we do not call ourselves schismatics has no bearing on whether we actually are. Arians did not call themselves heretics, but that was still an accurate description of them. The fact that you do not call yourselves Romanists has no bearing in whether you actually are.

You can clarify what you believe all you want, but you have no right to insist that everyone agree with you.
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« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2010, 05:28:31 PM »

What an uncharitable accusation. I am not being deceptive. Just confused. I know of no group of people that call themselves "The Romanists".

More attempts at being deceptive.

But you're not fooling me.

Yes, it is true that there is no group which self-identifies by the phrase.

In spite of that, however, I am confident that you know which group I am referring to by it.
How can you be so confident when you refuse to tell me who this group is?
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« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2010, 05:30:36 PM »

It astounds me that whenever someone on this forum disagrees with Rome, every catholic poster here jumps on it as if that person had no right to say so. Is it the "big powerful Church" mentality? Huh

I expect you'd like us to take the distortions of what we believe and say thank you?

Ok.

Thank you for distorting what I believe as a Catholic and what my Church teaches.  Thank you for seeing me as heterodox.  

In Christ,

M.

When you insist that we believe all the same things as you do but just don't know it, someone's belifs are going to inevitably get distorted.

And, as far as I know, it's not a distortion to say that you believe communion with Rome is a crucial unity factor in the Church. Hence, Romanists.

If I go onto a Roman Catholic furum, I will inevitably be told by most people, if not everyone, that the Orthodox Church is schismatic. That fact that we do not call ourselves schismatics has no bearing on whether we actually are. Arians did not call themselves heretics, but that was still an accurate description of them. The fact that you do not call yourselves Romanists has no bearing in whether you actually are.

You can clarify what you believe all you want, but you have no right to insist that everyone agree with you.
But from what I understand, there is either no such group called "The Romanists" or they are a super secret shadow organization to which Deusveritasest belongs. Why do I suspect that he belongs to this group? Because he is so insistent on hiding the identity of the Romanists.
Perhaps like this group:


Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who leaves Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cave fish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do! We do!

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« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2010, 05:33:46 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes
As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

Do you want him to puke? Shocked
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« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2010, 05:36:25 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes
As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

Do you want him to puke? Shocked
If that's what he is into. I'm not here to judge. (BTW, when some one says that they are not judging, they always are super-secretly judging)

Almost as super-secret as:

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« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2010, 05:37:24 PM »

It astounds me that whenever someone on this forum disagrees with Rome, every catholic poster here jumps on it as if that person had no right to say so. Is it the "big powerful Church" mentality? Huh

I expect you'd like us to take the distortions of what we believe and say thank you?

Ok.

Thank you for distorting what I believe as a Catholic and what my Church teaches.  Thank you for seeing me as heterodox.  

In Christ,

M.

When you insist that we believe all the same things as you do but just don't know it, someone's belifs are going to inevitably get distorted.

And, as far as I know, it's not a distortion to say that you believe communion with Rome is a crucial unity factor in the Church. Hence, Romanists.

If I go onto a Roman Catholic furum, I will inevitably be told by most people, if not everyone, that the Orthodox Church is schismatic. That fact that we do not call ourselves schismatics has no bearing on whether we actually are. Arians did not call themselves heretics, but that was still an accurate description of them. The fact that you do not call yourselves Romanists has no bearing in whether you actually are.

You can clarify what you believe all you want, but you have no right to insist that everyone agree with you.
But from what I understand, there is either no such group called "The Romanists" or they are a super secret shadow organization to which Deusveritasest belongs. Why do I suspect that he belongs to this group? Because he is so insistent on hiding the identity of the Romanists.

No one on this forum is allowed to say "Arian" anymore. There is no group that ever self-identified as "Arians."
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« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2010, 05:41:34 PM »

It astounds me that whenever someone on this forum disagrees with Rome, every catholic poster here jumps on it as if that person had no right to say so. Is it the "big powerful Church" mentality? Huh

I expect you'd like us to take the distortions of what we believe and say thank you?

Ok.

Thank you for distorting what I believe as a Catholic and what my Church teaches.  Thank you for seeing me as heterodox.  

In Christ,

M.

When you insist that we believe all the same things as you do but just don't know it, someone's belifs are going to inevitably get distorted.

And, as far as I know, it's not a distortion to say that you believe communion with Rome is a crucial unity factor in the Church. Hence, Romanists.

If I go onto a Roman Catholic furum, I will inevitably be told by most people, if not everyone, that the Orthodox Church is schismatic. That fact that we do not call ourselves schismatics has no bearing on whether we actually are. Arians did not call themselves heretics, but that was still an accurate description of them. The fact that you do not call yourselves Romanists has no bearing in whether you actually are.

You can clarify what you believe all you want, but you have no right to insist that everyone agree with you.
But from what I understand, there is either no such group called "The Romanists" or they are a super secret shadow organization to which Deusveritasest belongs. Why do I suspect that he belongs to this group? Because he is so insistent on hiding the identity of the Romanists.

No one on this forum is allowed to say "Arian" anymore. There is no group that ever self-identified as "Arians."
Really? Now you are comaparing a group that historical existed and the super-secret "Romanists"?

I suspect I have found the identity of the Romanists:
"The Queen, the Rothchilds, the Gettys,
                         the Vatican, and Colonel Sanders"
This guy was alot of help:
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« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2010, 05:45:35 PM »

It astounds me that whenever someone on this forum disagrees with Rome, every catholic poster here jumps on it as if that person had no right to say so. Is it the "big powerful Church" mentality? Huh

I expect you'd like us to take the distortions of what we believe and say thank you?

Ok.

Thank you for distorting what I believe as a Catholic and what my Church teaches.  Thank you for seeing me as heterodox.  

In Christ,

M.

When you insist that we believe all the same things as you do but just don't know it, someone's belifs are going to inevitably get distorted.

And, as far as I know, it's not a distortion to say that you believe communion with Rome is a crucial unity factor in the Church. Hence, Romanists.

If I go onto a Roman Catholic furum, I will inevitably be told by most people, if not everyone, that the Orthodox Church is schismatic. That fact that we do not call ourselves schismatics has no bearing on whether we actually are. Arians did not call themselves heretics, but that was still an accurate description of them. The fact that you do not call yourselves Romanists has no bearing in whether you actually are.

You can clarify what you believe all you want, but you have no right to insist that everyone agree with you.
But from what I understand, there is either no such group called "The Romanists" or they are a super secret shadow organization to which Deusveritasest belongs. Why do I suspect that he belongs to this group? Because he is so insistent on hiding the identity of the Romanists.

No one on this forum is allowed to say "Arian" anymore. There is no group that ever self-identified as "Arians."
Really? Now you are comaparing a group that historical existed and the super-secret "Romanists"?

Find me an Arian document that identifies them as Arians.
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« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2010, 06:42:52 PM »

It astounds me that whenever someone on this forum disagrees with Rome, every catholic poster here jumps on it as if that person had no right to say so. Is it the "big powerful Church" mentality? Huh

I expect you'd like us to take the distortions of what we believe and say thank you?

Ok.

Thank you for distorting what I believe as a Catholic and what my Church teaches.  Thank you for seeing me as heterodox.  

In Christ,

M.

When you insist that we believe all the same things as you do but just don't know it, someone's belifs are going to inevitably get distorted.

And, as far as I know, it's not a distortion to say that you believe communion with Rome is a crucial unity factor in the Church. Hence, Romanists.

If I go onto a Roman Catholic furum, I will inevitably be told by most people, if not everyone, that the Orthodox Church is schismatic. That fact that we do not call ourselves schismatics has no bearing on whether we actually are. Arians did not call themselves heretics, but that was still an accurate description of them. The fact that you do not call yourselves Romanists has no bearing in whether you actually are.

You can clarify what you believe all you want, but you have no right to insist that everyone agree with you.
But from what I understand, there is either no such group called "The Romanists" or they are a super secret shadow organization to which Deusveritasest belongs. Why do I suspect that he belongs to this group? Because he is so insistent on hiding the identity of the Romanists.

No one on this forum is allowed to say "Arian" anymore. There is no group that ever self-identified as "Arians."
Really? Now you are comaparing a group that historical existed and the super-secret "Romanists"?

Find me an Arian document that identifies them as Arians.
What is your point? Do you see any Arians around here to personal offend?
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« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2010, 06:44:07 PM »

It astounds me that whenever someone on this forum disagrees with Rome, every catholic poster here jumps on it as if that person had no right to say so. Is it the "big powerful Church" mentality? Huh

I expect you'd like us to take the distortions of what we believe and say thank you?

Ok.

Thank you for distorting what I believe as a Catholic and what my Church teaches.  Thank you for seeing me as heterodox.  

In Christ,

M.

When you insist that we believe all the same things as you do but just don't know it, someone's belifs are going to inevitably get distorted.

And, as far as I know, it's not a distortion to say that you believe communion with Rome is a crucial unity factor in the Church. Hence, Romanists.

If I go onto a Roman Catholic furum, I will inevitably be told by most people, if not everyone, that the Orthodox Church is schismatic. That fact that we do not call ourselves schismatics has no bearing on whether we actually are. Arians did not call themselves heretics, but that was still an accurate description of them. The fact that you do not call yourselves Romanists has no bearing in whether you actually are.

You can clarify what you believe all you want, but you have no right to insist that everyone agree with you.
But from what I understand, there is either no such group called "The Romanists" or they are a super secret shadow organization to which Deusveritasest belongs. Why do I suspect that he belongs to this group? Because he is so insistent on hiding the identity of the Romanists.

No one on this forum is allowed to say "Arian" anymore. There is no group that ever self-identified as "Arians."
Really? Now you are comaparing a group that historical existed and the super-secret "Romanists"?

Find me an Arian document that identifies them as Arians.
Do you see any Arians on this forum to personally offend? That being said, I am not saying that the use of the term "Romanists" should be prohibted on this forum. I just have no idea who you are talking about because there is no such group, unless of course, you mean Deusveritasest's super-secret shadow organization.
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« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2010, 07:25:48 PM »

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth. To me this means that where the Church is, there is the fullness of dogmatic truth. I do not accept Elijahmaria's claim that there are no real dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, chiefly because to do so would be to reject the consensus of the Holy Fathers on the issue.

And yet most of the posters on here accept that there are no real dogmatic differences between the Orthodox and the Mono(Mia)physites. I'm just pointing out how selective everyone's being. At least the Roman Catholics actually accept Chalcedon.

Oh come now. Even I, one of the most Anti-Chalcedonian posters on here, accept that the two of us have far more in common than you do with the Romanists. The fact that we do not pay lip service to Chalcedon is a rather minor difference compared to all the deviations of Rome.
There's that shadow organization again.

Stop trying to be deceptive. You know exactly what I mean.
What an uncharitable accusation. I am not being deceptive. Just confused. I know of no group of people that call themselves "The Romanists". Is it like a new superhero team? You know, like the Justice Leaguie or The Avengers?


You knew it was coming.  Grin
I can see it now! Yay! Interestingly enough, Superman is my favorite super hero.
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« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2010, 08:46:21 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear one more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

Ditto!
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« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2010, 08:48:43 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes
As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

The problem is not that we distort your teachings, but rather that we understand them even better than you; you are not willing to own up to them.

Actually, you individually are better at really holding to your church's dogma than many others.

Mary, on the other hand....

I very much believe that the two of you do not believe the same thing about the filioque.
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« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2010, 08:50:09 PM »

What an uncharitable accusation. I am not being deceptive. Just confused. I know of no group of people that call themselves "The Romanists".

More attempts at being deceptive.

But you're not fooling me.

Yes, it is true that there is no group which self-identifies by the phrase.

In spite of that, however, I am confident that you know which group I am referring to by it.
How can you be so confident when you refuse to tell me who this group is?

Because I have told you about a dozen times already.
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« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2010, 09:03:46 PM »


 As long as Orthodoxy tries to force me to recant anything that I believe to be a part of revelation, then I will remain where I am.


Dear Mary,

If you ever wanted to join the Church, no force would be used against you.  Instead you would be asked if you renounce certain Roman Catholic teaching.  It's entirely up to you to either say Yes! and join the Church or say No! and remain a Roman/Ruthenian Catholic and go home for a cup of tea.  But there is no force used..

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that it does not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, the Universal Church?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual authority, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince; and that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor; and that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils,  and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?
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« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2010, 09:09:35 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

The Roman Catholics have this peculiar idea that others do not understand them,... But the Roman Catholic Church spends multi millions of dollars trying to communicate its faith and convert people.  It prints thousands of books every year on every imaginable Roman Catholic topic.

Is this really all a colossal failure? a colossal waste of money?   Really , dear Catholic brothers and sisters, if you cannot communicate your faith clearly, then whose fault is that?
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« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2010, 10:26:32 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

The Roman Catholics have this peculiar idea that others do not understand them,... But the Roman Catholic Church spends multi millions of dollars trying to communicate its faith and convert people.  It prints thousands of books every year on every imaginable Roman Catholic topic.

Is this really all a colossal failure? a colossal waste of money?   Really , dear Catholic brothers and sisters, if you cannot communicate your faith clearly, then whose fault is that?
Your fault for being dishonest.
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« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2010, 10:27:02 PM »

What an uncharitable accusation. I am not being deceptive. Just confused. I know of no group of people that call themselves "The Romanists".

More attempts at being deceptive.

But you're not fooling me.

Yes, it is true that there is no group which self-identifies by the phrase.

In spite of that, however, I am confident that you know which group I am referring to by it.
How can you be so confident when you refuse to tell me who this group is?

Because I have told you about a dozen times already.
When? Where?
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« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2010, 10:27:54 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear one more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

Ditto!
Well, maybe if you all came back to the Church, then you wouldn't be experiencing the psychological dissonance that is making you feel so ill.
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« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2010, 10:30:50 PM »


 As long as Orthodoxy tries to force me to recant anything that I believe to be a part of revelation, then I will remain where I am.


Dear Mary,

If you ever wanted to join the Church, no force would be used against you.  Instead you would be asked if you renounce certain Roman Catholic teaching.  It's entirely up to you to either say Yes! and join the Church or say No! and remain a Roman/Ruthenian Catholic and go home for a cup of tea.  But there is no force used..

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that it does not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, the Universal Church?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual authority, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince; and that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor; and that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils,  and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?

Except, I don't think that's what Catholics believe.
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« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2010, 10:36:55 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear one more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

Ditto!
Well, maybe if you all came back to the Church, then you wouldn't be experiencing the psychological dissonance that is making you feel so ill.
You mean the Vatican's apologetics?
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« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2010, 10:41:26 PM »

It astounds me that whenever someone on this forum disagrees with Rome, every catholic poster here jumps on it as if that person had no right to say so. Is it the "big powerful Church" mentality? Huh

I expect you'd like us to take the distortions of what we believe and say thank you?

Ok.

Thank you for distorting what I believe as a Catholic and what my Church teaches.  Thank you for seeing me as heterodox.  

In Christ,

M.

When you insist that we believe all the same things as you do but just don't know it, someone's belifs are going to inevitably get distorted.

And, as far as I know, it's not a distortion to say that you believe communion with Rome is a crucial unity factor in the Church. Hence, Romanists.

If I go onto a Roman Catholic furum, I will inevitably be told by most people, if not everyone, that the Orthodox Church is schismatic. That fact that we do not call ourselves schismatics has no bearing on whether we actually are. Arians did not call themselves heretics, but that was still an accurate description of them. The fact that you do not call yourselves Romanists has no bearing in whether you actually are.

You can clarify what you believe all you want, but you have no right to insist that everyone agree with you.
But from what I understand, there is either no such group called "The Romanists" or they are a super secret shadow organization to which Deusveritasest belongs. Why do I suspect that he belongs to this group? Because he is so insistent on hiding the identity of the Romanists.

No one on this forum is allowed to say "Arian" anymore. There is no group that ever self-identified as "Arians."
Really? Now you are comaparing a group that historical existed and the super-secret "Romanists"?

Find me an Arian document that identifies them as Arians.
Do you see any Arians on this forum to personally offend? That being said, I am not saying that the use of the term "Romanists" should be prohibted on this forum. I just have no idea who you are talking about because there is no such group, unless of course, you mean Deusveritasest's super-secret shadow organization.

It would be immoral to offend Arians behind their back. I do not use the term "Romanist" because it is pejorative, but I'm just saying that it's really not that bad and it is by no means inaccurate. I don't know why you have to argue every single time someone says something you don't like.
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« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2010, 10:45:59 PM »


 As long as Orthodoxy tries to force me to recant anything that I believe to be a part of revelation, then I will remain where I am.


Dear Mary,

If you ever wanted to join the Church, no force would be used against you.  Instead you would be asked if you renounce certain Roman Catholic teaching.  It's entirely up to you to either say Yes! and join the Church or say No! and remain a Roman/Ruthenian Catholic and go home for a cup of tea.  But there is no force used..

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that it does not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, the Universal Church?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual authority, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince; and that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor; and that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils,  and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?

Except, I don't think that's what Catholics believe.
That is what the Vatican teaches. Whether its followers believe it or not, that's between them until they come to us to be received by the Catholic Church to profess the Orthodox Fatih (and hence say the above renunciations).
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« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2010, 10:49:01 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

The Roman Catholics have this peculiar idea that others do not understand them,... But the Roman Catholic Church spends multi millions of dollars trying to communicate its faith and convert people.  It prints thousands of books every year on every imaginable Roman Catholic topic.

Is this really all a colossal failure? a colossal waste of money?   Really , dear Catholic brothers and sisters, if you cannot communicate your faith clearly, then whose fault is that?
Your fault for being dishonest.
It's the Vatican's fault, for not giving out the decodeer key that evidently some here have.
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« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2010, 10:50:45 PM »


 As long as Orthodoxy tries to force me to recant anything that I believe to be a part of revelation, then I will remain where I am.


Dear Mary,

If you ever wanted to join the Church, no force would be used against you.  Instead you would be asked if you renounce certain Roman Catholic teaching.  It's entirely up to you to either say Yes! and join the Church or say No! and remain a Roman/Ruthenian Catholic and go home for a cup of tea.  But there is no force used..

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that it does not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, the Universal Church?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual authority, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince; and that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor; and that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils,  and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?

Except, I don't think that's what Catholics believe.

You are right.   A lot of modern day Catholic are heretics and reject some of their Church's doctrines.  Catholic rejection applies to both morals (contraception and divorce/remarriage) and to faith issues such as we are discussing here, those concerning the Pope.

Just to take one example from the renunciations... "Do you renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils?"

Now Catholic dogmatic teaching is the opposite.  The Pope is superior to all Councils.  Without him they have no authority.  No Council has the authority to judge the Vicar of Christ. Do you see why this must be renounced by any Roman Catholic coming into the Church?


"There never is an ecumenical council which is not confirmed
or at least recognized as such by Peter's successor. And it is
the prerogative of the Roman Pontiff to convoke such councils,
to preside over them and to confirm them."
- Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium: 22
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« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2010, 10:54:26 PM »


 As long as Orthodoxy tries to force me to recant anything that I believe to be a part of revelation, then I will remain where I am.


Dear Mary,

If you ever wanted to join the Church, no force would be used against you.  Instead you would be asked if you renounce certain Roman Catholic teaching.  It's entirely up to you to either say Yes! and join the Church or say No! and remain a Roman/Ruthenian Catholic and go home for a cup of tea.  But there is no force used..

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that it does not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, the Universal Church?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual authority, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince; and that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor; and that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils,  and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?

Except, I don't think that's what Catholics believe.
That is what the Vatican teaches. Whether its followers believe it or not, that's between them until they come to us to be received by the Catholic Church to profess the Orthodox Fatih (and hence say the above renunciations).

Is it?

1) the pope isn't head of the church, the way this is implied. He's the Vicar of Christ to give human leadership to the church.

2) they don't claim the bishops aren't the heirs of the Apostles, only that Peter was the chief for human leadership

3) the popes aren't above ecumenical councils, they are able to be infallible however on certain criteria, but the heretic popes are debatable  
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« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2010, 10:59:18 PM »


 As long as Orthodoxy tries to force me to recant anything that I believe to be a part of revelation, then I will remain where I am.


Dear Mary,

If you ever wanted to join the Church, no force would be used against you.  Instead you would be asked if you renounce certain Roman Catholic teaching.  It's entirely up to you to either say Yes! and join the Church or say No! and remain a Roman/Ruthenian Catholic and go home for a cup of tea.  But there is no force used..

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that it does not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, the Universal Church?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual authority, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince; and that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor; and that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils,  and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?

Except, I don't think that's what Catholics believe.

You are right.   A lot of modern day Catholic are heretics and reject some of their Church's doctrines.  Catholic rejection applies to both morals (contraception and divorce/remarriage) and to faith issues such as we are discussing here, those concerning the Pope.

Just to take one example from the renunciations... "Do you renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils?"

Now Catholic dogmatic teaching is the opposite.  The Pope is superior to all Councils.  Without him they have no authority.  No Council has the authority to judge the Vicar of Christ. Do you see why this must be renounced by any Roman Catholic coming into the Church?


"There never is an ecumenical council which is not confirmed
or at least recognized as such by Peter's successor. And it is
the prerogative of the Roman Pontiff to convoke such councils,
to preside over them and to confirm them."
- Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium: 22

I see what you mean, Father.

But I've also seen it explained that this doesn't place him above the council. He merely officially calls them as chief, and confirms them as chief. And for total ecumenism of the bishops.
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« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2010, 12:09:16 AM »


 As long as Orthodoxy tries to force me to recant anything that I believe to be a part of revelation, then I will remain where I am.


Dear Mary,

If you ever wanted to join the Church, no force would be used against you.  Instead you would be asked if you renounce certain Roman Catholic teaching.  It's entirely up to you to either say Yes! and join the Church or say No! and remain a Roman/Ruthenian Catholic and go home for a cup of tea.  But there is no force used..

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that it does not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, the Universal Church?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual authority, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince; and that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor; and that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils,  and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?

Except, I don't think that's what Catholics believe.
That is what the Vatican teaches. Whether its followers believe it or not, that's between them until they come to us to be received by the Catholic Church to profess the Orthodox Fatih (and hence say the above renunciations).

Is it?

1) the pope isn't head of the church, the way this is implied. He's the Vicar of Christ to give human leadership to the church.
The Vatican has taught us at sword point what it mean by this.
you might want to argue with his holiness:
Quote
Pope Benedict XIV

“But whatever can be said about this controverted point of ecclesiastical learning, it is sufficient for us to be able to affirm that the commemoration of the Roman Pontiff in the Mass as well as the prayers said for him in the Sacrifice are considered to be, and are a certain declarative sign, by which the same Pontiff is recognized as the head of the Church, the Vicar of Christ, and the Successor of Saint Peter, and becomes of profession of a mind and will firmly adhering to Catholic unity; as Christian Lupus correctly indicates, writing on the councils (Tom. 4. Editionis Bruxell. pag. 422): This commemoration is the supreme and most distinguished kind of communion.” Nor is this any less proven by the authority of Ivo Flaviniacensis (in Chronicle, p. 228) where it reads: “Let him know that he separates himself from the communion of the whole world, whoever does not mention the name of the Pope in the Canon, for whatever reason of dissension; nor [by the authority of] the well-known Alcuin, who, in his book De Divinis Officiis (chap. 12) wrote this: “ It is certain, as Blessed Pelagius teaches, that those who, for whatever reason of dissension, do not observe the custom of mentioning the name of the Apostolic Pontiff in the sacred mysteries, are separated from the communion of the whole world.” This fact is further proven by a more severe statement of the Supreme Pontiff Pelagius II, who held the Apostolic throne in the sixth century of the Church, and who in his letter contained in the Labbeana Collectio Conciliorum (Tome 5, col 794 sq. and col 810)left this in writing concerning our subject: I am shocked at your separation from the whole Church, which I cannot tolerate; for when blessed Augustine, mindful of Our Lord’s words which placed the foundation of the Church in Apostolic Sees, says that he is in schism whosoever shall separate himself from the authority of or communion with those who preside in these same Sees, and who does not publicly profess that there is no other Church than that which is established in the pontifical roots of the Apostolic Sees, how can you not esteem yourselves to be cut off from the communion of the whole world, if you withhold the mention of my name in the sacred mysteries, as is the custom, in whom, though unworthy, you see at the present time the strength of the Apostolic See through the succession of the episcopate?”
This has also been reiterated lately:
From this much longer review of the new interview/book with BXVI:

Quote
Backtracking from Dominus Iesus?  Discussing the conciliar language of particular churches, the pope notes that "the Eastern Churches are genuine particular churches, although they are not in communion with the pope. In this sense, unity with the pope is not constitutive for the particular church" (89; my emphasis)! When I have time I'll have to check this (especially the word "constitutive") against Dominus Iesus and also the 1992 declaration on the Church as communio because it sounds like the pope is introducing an important clarification or nuance here.... 
Sounds no different from Dominus Iesus:

17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.
I've heard it explained by the Vatican's priests that we are like a puzzle that has only the edge pieces but are missing the center because we "don't have the pope," and other such nonsense. In other words, "it does not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church."

Quote
2) they don't claim the bishops aren't the heirs of the Apostles, only that Peter was the chief for human leadership

They claim that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual authority, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince, who alone held the keys to the kingdom, contradicting the Scriptures and the Fathers on the Council of Jerusalem, giving St. James' presidency to St. Peter.  They deny that any of their four patriarchs of Antioch are successors of St. Peter as the Bishop of Rome, who they hold alone is his successor.  They claim the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles, claiming that they must receive their pallium from the supreme pontiff.  Lumen Gentium and their canon law are quite specific that no bishop or group of bishops may act without their "head," the "Roman [supreme] Pontiff."

Quote
3) the popes aren't above ecumenical councils, they are able to be infallible however on certain criteria, but the heretic popes are debatable  
Father Ambrose has answered this, I'll just add their canon law on Ecumenical Councils, which I've posted several times.
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« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2010, 12:18:56 AM »


 As long as Orthodoxy tries to force me to recant anything that I believe to be a part of revelation, then I will remain where I am.


Dear Mary,

If you ever wanted to join the Church, no force would be used against you.  Instead you would be asked if you renounce certain Roman Catholic teaching.  It's entirely up to you to either say Yes! and join the Church or say No! and remain a Roman/Ruthenian Catholic and go home for a cup of tea.  But there is no force used..

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that it does not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, the Universal Church?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual authority, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince; and that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor; and that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils,  and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?

Except, I don't think that's what Catholics believe.

You are right.   A lot of modern day Catholic are heretics and reject some of their Church's doctrines.  Catholic rejection applies to both morals (contraception and divorce/remarriage) and to faith issues such as we are discussing here, those concerning the Pope.

Just to take one example from the renunciations... "Do you renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils?"

Now Catholic dogmatic teaching is the opposite.  The Pope is superior to all Councils.  Without him they have no authority.  No Council has the authority to judge the Vicar of Christ. Do you see why this must be renounced by any Roman Catholic coming into the Church?


"There never is an ecumenical council which is not confirmed
or at least recognized as such by Peter's successor. And it is
the prerogative of the Roman Pontiff to convoke such councils,
to preside over them and to confirm them."
- Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium: 22

I see what you mean, Father.

But I've also seen it explained that this doesn't place him above the council. He merely officially calls them as chief, and confirms them as chief. And for total ecumenism of the bishops.
The General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union performed a similar role.  That was not new: the predecessor of Pope Benedict XVI of the Vatican as supreme pontiff, Augustus, only claimed to be first citizen. No one was fooled.
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« Reply #69 on: December 09, 2010, 01:05:15 AM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes
As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

The problem is not that we distort your teachings, but rather that we understand them even better than you; you are not willing to own up to them.

 laugh laugh laugh laugh

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« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2010, 01:05:17 AM »


 As long as Orthodoxy tries to force me to recant anything that I believe to be a part of revelation, then I will remain where I am.


Dear Mary,

If you ever wanted to join the Church, no force would be used against you.  Instead you would be asked if you renounce certain Roman Catholic teaching.  It's entirely up to you to either say Yes! and join the Church or say No! and remain a Roman/Ruthenian Catholic and go home for a cup of tea.  But there is no force used..

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that it does not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, the Universal Church?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual authority, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince; and that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor; and that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils,  and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?

Except, I don't think that's what Catholics believe.

 laugh laugh laugh

Yep.  That would be the problem.  I find that I would have difficulty recanting things that I am not asked to believe by my own Church in the first place.

Perhaps if the formulas were adjusted to reflect what Catholics actually believe I'd have to take another look...

M.
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« Reply #71 on: December 09, 2010, 01:05:19 AM »

Quote
How to consider Roman Catholics

Consider them friends, unless they're not. And don't poke them with a stick, they have an irrational dislike for that sort of thing. Oh, one other thing, when you are in close proximity, don't get caught wearing cologne that smells like cabbage, they don't like that either.
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« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2010, 09:23:02 AM »

Quote
How to consider Roman Catholics

Consider them friends, unless they're not. And don't poke them with a stick, they have an irrational dislike for that sort of thing. Oh, one other thing, when you are in close proximity, don't get caught wearing cologne that smells like cabbage, they don't like that either.

Oh, I don't know about that cabbage thing...I think that my Polish, Slovak, Ukrainian and Byzantine Catholic neighbors from the old 'hood would take exception to that more than anything posted on the thread! laugh
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« Reply #73 on: December 09, 2010, 09:30:14 AM »

Find me an Arian document that identifies them as Arians.

http://arian-catholic.org/

 Smiley
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« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2010, 12:10:01 PM »


 As long as Orthodoxy tries to force me to recant anything that I believe to be a part of revelation, then I will remain where I am.


Dear Mary,

If you ever wanted to join the Church, no force would be used against you.  Instead you would be asked if you renounce certain Roman Catholic teaching.  It's entirely up to you to either say Yes! and join the Church or say No! and remain a Roman/Ruthenian Catholic and go home for a cup of tea.  But there is no force used..

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that it does not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, the Universal Church?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual authority, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince; and that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor; and that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils,  and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?

Except, I don't think that's what Catholics believe.

 laugh laugh laugh

Yep.  That would be the problem.  I find that I would have difficulty recanting things that I am not asked to believe by my own Church in the first place.

Perhaps if the formulas were adjusted to reflect what Catholics actually believe I'd have to take another look...
If they don't say what the Vatican teaches, then you should have no problem anathematizing such opinions, now should you?

When I renounced the Lutheran sacramental union, I did so out of obedience, because I didn't think it was an accurate portrayal. Only in hindsight did I see how spot on it was.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2010, 12:20:25 PM »

Threads like this make me long for the good ol' days of atheism. Grin
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« Reply #76 on: December 09, 2010, 12:44:14 PM »

Threads like this make me long for the good ol' days of atheism. Grin

and this...

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31925.msg504560.html#msg504560
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« Reply #77 on: December 09, 2010, 01:12:20 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear one more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

Ditto!
Well, maybe if you all came back to the Church, then you wouldn't be experiencing the psychological dissonance that is making you feel so ill.
You mean the Vatican's apologetics?
A hill in Rome has apologetics?
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« Reply #78 on: December 09, 2010, 01:17:22 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear one more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

Ditto!
Well, maybe if you all came back to the Church, then you wouldn't be experiencing the psychological dissonance that is making you feel so ill.
You mean the Vatican's apologetics?
A hill in Rome has apologetics?
Sure. Even has its own official website:
http://www.vatican.va/
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #79 on: December 09, 2010, 01:22:04 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear one more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

Ditto!

Well, maybe if you all came back to the Church, then you wouldn't be experiencing the psychological dissonance that is making you feel so ill.
You mean the Vatican's apologetics?
A hill in Rome has apologetics?
Sure. Even has its own official website:
http://www.vatican.va/
Oh you meant the City-State of the Vatican. Yeah, it has a website and such. I am wondering though, if rather than Vatican Apologetics, you are talking about Catholic Apologetics. I have seen many books on Catholic apologetics, such as:



But very few apologetics for the Vatican City State. Maybe what you are saying is that Vatican often produces Catholic apologetics?
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« Reply #80 on: December 09, 2010, 01:25:07 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear one more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

Ditto!

Well, maybe if you all came back to the Church, then you wouldn't be experiencing the psychological dissonance that is making you feel so ill.
You mean the Vatican's apologetics?
A hill in Rome has apologetics?
Sure. Even has its own official website:
http://www.vatican.va/
Oh you meant the City-State of the Vatican. Yeah, it has a website and such. I am wondering though, if rather than Vatican Apologetics, you are talking about Catholic Apologetics. I have seen many books on Catholic apologetics, such as:



But very few apologetics for the Vatican City State. Maybe what you are saying is that Vatican often produces Catholic apologetics?
So it claims.
Quote
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism_lt/index_lt.htm
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 01:31:30 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2010, 01:31:15 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear one more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

Ditto!

Well, maybe if you all came back to the Church, then you wouldn't be experiencing the psychological dissonance that is making you feel so ill.
You mean the Vatican's apologetics?
A hill in Rome has apologetics?
Sure. Even has its own official website:
http://www.vatican.va/
Oh you meant the City-State of the Vatican. Yeah, it has a website and such. I am wondering though, if rather than Vatican Apologetics, you are talking about Catholic Apologetics. I have seen many books on Catholic apologetics, such as:



But very few apologetics for the Vatican City State. Maybe what you are saying is that Vatican often produces Catholic apologetics?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism_lt/index_lt.htm
Not really apologetics. Though, if it were it would be Catholic apologetics and not Vatican apologetics.
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« Reply #82 on: December 09, 2010, 01:46:21 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear one more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

Ditto!

Well, maybe if you all came back to the Church, then you wouldn't be experiencing the psychological dissonance that is making you feel so ill.
You mean the Vatican's apologetics?
A hill in Rome has apologetics?
Sure. Even has its own official website:
http://www.vatican.va/
Oh you meant the City-State of the Vatican. Yeah, it has a website and such. I am wondering though, if rather than Vatican Apologetics, you are talking about Catholic Apologetics. I have seen many books on Catholic apologetics, such as:



But very few apologetics for the Vatican City State. Maybe what you are saying is that Vatican often produces Catholic apologetics?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism_lt/index_lt.htm
Not really apologetics. Though, if it were it would be Catholic apologetics and not Vatican apologetics.
The Vatican is a sovereign state, so it is impossible to sue it for copyright infringement. As for Catholic apologetics in the form of a catechism:
http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/5_1
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/Orthodox_Catechism_of_Philaret.htm
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/law_of_god_slobodskoy_1.htm
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/law_of_god_slobodskoy_2.htm
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/law_of_god_slobodskoy_3.htm

St. Peter Movila's Orthodox Confession of the Catholic Church of the East isn't available in English anymore that I have seen.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #83 on: December 09, 2010, 02:01:08 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear one more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

Ditto!

Well, maybe if you all came back to the Church, then you wouldn't be experiencing the psychological dissonance that is making you feel so ill.
You mean the Vatican's apologetics?
A hill in Rome has apologetics?
Sure. Even has its own official website:
http://www.vatican.va/
Oh you meant the City-State of the Vatican. Yeah, it has a website and such. I am wondering though, if rather than Vatican Apologetics, you are talking about Catholic Apologetics. I have seen many books on Catholic apologetics, such as:



But very few apologetics for the Vatican City State. Maybe what you are saying is that Vatican often produces Catholic apologetics?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism_lt/index_lt.htm
Not really apologetics. Though, if it were it would be Catholic apologetics and not Vatican apologetics.
The Vatican is a sovereign state, so it is impossible to sue it for copyright infringement. As for Catholic apologetics in the form of a catechism:
http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/5_1
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/Orthodox_Catechism_of_Philaret.htm
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/law_of_god_slobodskoy_1.htm
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/law_of_god_slobodskoy_2.htm
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/law_of_god_slobodskoy_3.htm

St. Peter Movila's Orthodox Confession of the Catholic Church of the East isn't available in English anymore that I have seen.
Oh, I think you are confused. You links you have provided are not Catholic apologetics. They are Eastern Orthodox apologetics.
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« Reply #84 on: December 09, 2010, 03:26:38 PM »


 As long as Orthodoxy tries to force me to recant anything that I believe to be a part of revelation, then I will remain where I am.


Dear Mary,

If you ever wanted to join the Church, no force would be used against you.  Instead you would be asked if you renounce certain Roman Catholic teaching.  It's entirely up to you to either say Yes! and join the Church or say No! and remain a Roman/Ruthenian Catholic and go home for a cup of tea.  But there is no force used..

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that it does not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, the Universal Church?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal spiritual authority, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince; and that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor; and that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

..........Do you renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils,  and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?

Except, I don't think that's what Catholics believe.

 laugh laugh laugh

Yep.  That would be the problem.  I find that I would have difficulty recanting things that I am not asked to believe by my own Church in the first place.

Perhaps if the formulas were adjusted to reflect what Catholics actually believe I'd have to take another look...
If they don't say what the Vatican teaches, then you should have no problem anathematizing such opinions, now should you?

When I renounced the Lutheran sacramental union, I did so out of obedience, because I didn't think it was an accurate portrayal. Only in hindsight did I see how spot on it was.

I only ever offer obedience to legitimate authority and only then in all things but sin.

I do not think that the Orthodox Church has the legitimate authority to so poorly and falsely portray the teachings of the Catholic Church.  I am sure you would find that you have the same response to Catholics who warp and twist Orthodoxy.  I've tested that out here, so I should know.

There is such a thing as fairness even in religious discussions however informal.

Mary
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« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2010, 04:25:31 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

The Roman Catholics have this peculiar idea that others do not understand them,... But the Roman Catholic Church spends multi millions of dollars trying to communicate its faith and convert people.  It prints thousands of books every year on every imaginable Roman Catholic topic.

Is this really all a colossal failure? a colossal waste of money?   Really , dear Catholic brothers and sisters, if you cannot communicate your faith clearly, then whose fault is that?
Your fault for being dishonest.

Oh my!  A public attack on an priest!  Thank the Lord we are not on a Catholic forum where such attacks merit scoldings from other participants....
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« Reply #86 on: December 09, 2010, 04:33:30 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

The Roman Catholics have this peculiar idea that others do not understand them,... But the Roman Catholic Church spends multi millions of dollars trying to communicate its faith and convert people.  It prints thousands of books every year on every imaginable Roman Catholic topic.

Is this really all a colossal failure? a colossal waste of money?   Really , dear Catholic brothers and sisters, if you cannot communicate your faith clearly, then whose fault is that?
Your fault for being dishonest.

Oh my!  A public attack on an priest!  Thank the Lord we are not on a Catholic forum where such attacks merit scoldings from other participants....

Certainly, no one here is being dishonest. Especially you. Only debating/arguing how we understand/see things.
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« Reply #87 on: December 09, 2010, 04:33:59 PM »

Threads like this make me long for the good ol' days of atheism. Grin

I'm having fun.
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« Reply #88 on: December 09, 2010, 04:42:39 PM »

Quote
How to consider Roman Catholics

Consider them friends, unless they're not. And don't poke them with a stick, they have an irrational dislike for that sort of thing. Oh, one other thing, when you are in close proximity, don't get caught wearing cologne that smells like cabbage, they don't like that either.

Oh, I don't know about that cabbage thing...I think that my Polish, Slovak, Ukrainian and Byzantine Catholic neighbors from the old 'hood would take exception to that more than anything posted on the thread! laugh

I stand corrected!  Grin
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« Reply #89 on: December 09, 2010, 05:03:27 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

The Roman Catholics have this peculiar idea that others do not understand them,... But the Roman Catholic Church spends multi millions of dollars trying to communicate its faith and convert people.  It prints thousands of books every year on every imaginable Roman Catholic topic.

Is this really all a colossal failure? a colossal waste of money?   Really , dear Catholic brothers and sisters, if you cannot communicate your faith clearly, then whose fault is that?
Your fault for being dishonest.

Oh my!  A public attack on an priest!  Thank the Lord we are not on a Catholic forum where such attacks merit scoldings from other participants....
Martyr Syndrome.
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« Reply #90 on: December 09, 2010, 05:15:30 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

The Roman Catholics have this peculiar idea that others do not understand them,... But the Roman Catholic Church spends multi millions of dollars trying to communicate its faith and convert people.  It prints thousands of books every year on every imaginable Roman Catholic topic.

Is this really all a colossal failure? a colossal waste of money?   Really , dear Catholic brothers and sisters, if you cannot communicate your faith clearly, then whose fault is that?
Your fault for being dishonest.

Oh my!  A public attack on an priest!  Thank the Lord we are not on a Catholic forum where such attacks merit scoldings from other participants....
Martyr Syndrome.

You're the one who is incessantly self-victimizing (along with plenty of other Catholic posters here), and you're accusing him of a martyr complex?
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« Reply #91 on: December 09, 2010, 05:19:02 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

The Roman Catholics have this peculiar idea that others do not understand them,... But the Roman Catholic Church spends multi millions of dollars trying to communicate its faith and convert people.  It prints thousands of books every year on every imaginable Roman Catholic topic.

Is this really all a colossal failure? a colossal waste of money?   Really , dear Catholic brothers and sisters, if you cannot communicate your faith clearly, then whose fault is that?
Your fault for being dishonest.

Oh my!  A public attack on an priest!  Thank the Lord we are not on a Catholic forum where such attacks merit scoldings from other participants....
Martyr Syndrome.

You're the one who is incessantly self-victimizing (along with plenty of other Catholic posters here), and you're accusing him of a martyr complex?
Where? I have never called for a rule banning the insults of EOs agains the Christ's Church.
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« Reply #92 on: December 09, 2010, 05:36:06 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

The Roman Catholics have this peculiar idea that others do not understand them,... But the Roman Catholic Church spends multi millions of dollars trying to communicate its faith and convert people.  It prints thousands of books every year on every imaginable Roman Catholic topic.

Is this really all a colossal failure? a colossal waste of money?   Really , dear Catholic brothers and sisters, if you cannot communicate your faith clearly, then whose fault is that?
Your fault for being dishonest.

Oh my!  A public attack on an priest!  Thank the Lord we are not on a Catholic forum where such attacks merit scoldings from other participants....
Martyr Syndrome.

You're the one who is incessantly self-victimizing (along with plenty of other Catholic posters here), and you're accusing him of a martyr complex?
Where? I have never called for a rule banning the insults of EOs agains the Christ's Church.

Do you remember the days on CAF when the Orthodox were forbidden to use the term "Catholic" in reference to their Church and those who did were banned?
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« Reply #93 on: December 09, 2010, 06:06:26 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear one more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

Ditto!

Well, maybe if you all came back to the Church, then you wouldn't be experiencing the psychological dissonance that is making you feel so ill.
You mean the Vatican's apologetics?
A hill in Rome has apologetics?
Sure. Even has its own official website:
http://www.vatican.va/
Oh you meant the City-State of the Vatican. Yeah, it has a website and such. I am wondering though, if rather than Vatican Apologetics, you are talking about Catholic Apologetics. I have seen many books on Catholic apologetics, such as:



But very few apologetics for the Vatican City State. Maybe what you are saying is that Vatican often produces Catholic apologetics?

You're doing it again.
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« Reply #94 on: December 09, 2010, 06:08:02 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear one more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

Ditto!

Well, maybe if you all came back to the Church, then you wouldn't be experiencing the psychological dissonance that is making you feel so ill.
You mean the Vatican's apologetics?
A hill in Rome has apologetics?
Sure. Even has its own official website:
http://www.vatican.va/
Oh you meant the City-State of the Vatican. Yeah, it has a website and such. I am wondering though, if rather than Vatican Apologetics, you are talking about Catholic Apologetics. I have seen many books on Catholic apologetics, such as:



But very few apologetics for the Vatican City State. Maybe what you are saying is that Vatican often produces Catholic apologetics?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism_lt/index_lt.htm
Not really apologetics. Though, if it were it would be Catholic apologetics and not Vatican apologetics.
The Vatican is a sovereign state, so it is impossible to sue it for copyright infringement. As for Catholic apologetics in the form of a catechism:
http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/5_1
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/Orthodox_Catechism_of_Philaret.htm
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/law_of_god_slobodskoy_1.htm
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/law_of_god_slobodskoy_2.htm
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/law_of_god_slobodskoy_3.htm

St. Peter Movila's Orthodox Confession of the Catholic Church of the East isn't available in English anymore that I have seen.
Oh, I think you are confused. You links you have provided are not Catholic apologetics. They are Eastern Orthodox apologetics.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #95 on: December 09, 2010, 06:09:14 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

The Roman Catholics have this peculiar idea that others do not understand them,... But the Roman Catholic Church spends multi millions of dollars trying to communicate its faith and convert people.  It prints thousands of books every year on every imaginable Roman Catholic topic.

Is this really all a colossal failure? a colossal waste of money?   Really , dear Catholic brothers and sisters, if you cannot communicate your faith clearly, then whose fault is that?
Your fault for being dishonest.

Oh my!  A public attack on an priest!  Thank the Lord we are not on a Catholic forum where such attacks merit scoldings from other participants....

 laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #96 on: December 09, 2010, 06:09:51 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear one more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

Ditto!

Well, maybe if you all came back to the Church, then you wouldn't be experiencing the psychological dissonance that is making you feel so ill.
You mean the Vatican's apologetics?
A hill in Rome has apologetics?
Sure. Even has its own official website:
http://www.vatican.va/
Oh you meant the City-State of the Vatican. Yeah, it has a website and such. I am wondering though, if rather than Vatican Apologetics, you are talking about Catholic Apologetics. I have seen many books on Catholic apologetics, such as:



But very few apologetics for the Vatican City State. Maybe what you are saying is that Vatican often produces Catholic apologetics?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism_lt/index_lt.htm
Not really apologetics. Though, if it were it would be Catholic apologetics and not Vatican apologetics.
The Vatican is a sovereign state, so it is impossible to sue it for copyright infringement. As for Catholic apologetics in the form of a catechism:
http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/5_1
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/Orthodox_Catechism_of_Philaret.htm
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/law_of_god_slobodskoy_1.htm
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/law_of_god_slobodskoy_2.htm
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/law_of_god_slobodskoy_3.htm

St. Peter Movila's Orthodox Confession of the Catholic Church of the East isn't available in English anymore that I have seen.
Oh, I think you are confused. You links you have provided are not Catholic apologetics. They are Eastern Orthodox apologetics.
And yet more admission of your confusion Papist.
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« Reply #97 on: December 09, 2010, 06:12:30 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

The Roman Catholics have this peculiar idea that others do not understand them,... But the Roman Catholic Church spends multi millions of dollars trying to communicate its faith and convert people.  It prints thousands of books every year on every imaginable Roman Catholic topic.

Is this really all a colossal failure? a colossal waste of money?   Really , dear Catholic brothers and sisters, if you cannot communicate your faith clearly, then whose fault is that?
Your fault for being dishonest.

Oh my!  A public attack on an priest!  Thank the Lord we are not on a Catholic forum where such attacks merit scoldings from other participants....

Certainly, no one here is being dishonest. Especially you. Only debating/arguing how we understand/see things.
Well, we see A, then B, we understand C comes next.  If you all understand 5 comes next, well, not much we can see eye to eye on that.
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« Reply #98 on: December 09, 2010, 06:15:09 PM »

This 'discussion' (I use the term loosely since this sub-forum is entitled " Orthodox-Catholic Discussion" is really embarrassing to me as a Christian. Perhaps my reply isn't OC ('OC' being an acronym, akin to 'PC', short for 'orthodox correct'), but I regard Roman Catholics as my friends, brothers, sisters and neighbors and, like me, sinners on the path to God through this life. As to their Church, I regard it with both personal affection and profound sadness as I view it as not being part of the undivided body of Christ and her Church which I believe is present in this earth in the body of our Orthodox Faith.  and...I pray for the day that we may all be as one in the fullness of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Anyone  not Roman Catholic or Orthodox who might stumble upon this 'discussion' would surely run for the hills.
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« Reply #99 on: December 09, 2010, 06:40:35 PM »

I only ever offer obedience to legitimate authority and only then in all things but sin.
You're quite obedient to a supreme pontiff in schism/heresy, and obedient to the particulars of his heresy.

Quote
I do not think that the Orthodox Church has the legitimate authority to so poorly and falsely portray the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Yes, it's the mirror.

Quote
I am sure you would find that you have the same response to Catholics who warp and twist Orthodoxy.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Eastern_Orthodoxy.asp
or
Quote
The document considers above all the reality of the oriental Churches not in full communion with the Catholic Church and, making reference to various conciliar texts, gives them the title “particular or local Churches” and calls them sister Churches of the particular Catholic Churches because they remain united to the Catholic Church through the apostolic succession and the valid celebration of the Eucharist “through which the Church of God is built up and grows in stature.11] It will, therefore, remain necessary to emphasise that the Primacy of the Successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome, is not seen as something extraneous or merely concurrent with that of Bishops of particular Churches. Rather it must be exercised in service to the unity of the faith and of communion within the limits that proceed from divine law and from the divine and inviolable constitution of the Church contained in revelation.[12]
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_commento-responsa_en.html

Quote
I've tested that out here, so I should know.

Anyone more credible?

Quote
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Callingn a spade a spade is quite fair.
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« Reply #100 on: December 09, 2010, 06:41:58 PM »

The sad thing is, this thread wasn't even started by the OP, so all this discussion probably would have been avoided if the post was left in it's original context...(although I'm sure these sentiments would eventually surface later) Cry
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« Reply #101 on: December 09, 2010, 06:46:23 PM »

Quote
I am sure you would find that you have the same response to Catholics who warp and twist Orthodoxy.  I've tested that out here, so I should know.

Interesting comment from someone who has spent much time and effort in trying to convince us Orthodox that the Immaculate Conception of Mary is consistent with Orthodox teaching. Please, EM, don't embarrass yourself further.  angel Kiss
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« Reply #102 on: December 09, 2010, 07:01:15 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear one more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

Ditto!

Well, maybe if you all came back to the Church, then you wouldn't be experiencing the psychological dissonance that is making you feel so ill.
You mean the Vatican's apologetics?
A hill in Rome has apologetics?
Sure. Even has its own official website:
http://www.vatican.va/
Oh you meant the City-State of the Vatican. Yeah, it has a website and such. I am wondering though, if rather than Vatican Apologetics, you are talking about Catholic Apologetics. I have seen many books on Catholic apologetics, such as:



But very few apologetics for the Vatican City State. Maybe what you are saying is that Vatican often produces Catholic apologetics?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism_lt/index_lt.htm
Not really apologetics. Though, if it were it would be Catholic apologetics and not Vatican apologetics.
The Vatican is a sovereign state, so it is impossible to sue it for copyright infringement. As for Catholic apologetics in the form of a catechism:
http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/5_1
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/Orthodox_Catechism_of_Philaret.htm
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/law_of_god_slobodskoy_1.htm
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/law_of_god_slobodskoy_2.htm
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/law_of_god_slobodskoy_3.htm

St. Peter Movila's Orthodox Confession of the Catholic Church of the East isn't available in English anymore that I have seen.
Oh, I think you are confused. You links you have provided are not Catholic apologetics. They are Eastern Orthodox apologetics.
And yet more admission of your confusion Papist.

He's not really confused. He's just pretending to be confused to mess with us.
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« Reply #103 on: December 09, 2010, 07:22:10 PM »


He's not really confused. He's just pretending to be confused to mess with us.

Well, now we're gonna mess with him! Grin laugh

I declare nine days of prayer for the Papist! 
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« Reply #104 on: December 09, 2010, 07:23:59 PM »


He's not really confused. He's just pretending to be confused to mess with us.

Well, now we're gonna mess with him! Grin laugh

I declare nine days of prayer for the Papist! 
I will pray for you to St. Thomas Aquinas, Albertus Magnus, and Blessed John Duns Scotus for nine days.  Grin
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« Reply #105 on: December 09, 2010, 07:24:42 PM »

And yet more admission of your confusion Papist.
I am only confused by the rabbit hole that is your thinking Isa.
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« Reply #106 on: December 09, 2010, 07:25:31 PM »

He's not really confused. He's just pretending to be confused to mess with us.
What an uncharitable accusation.
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« Reply #107 on: December 09, 2010, 07:50:20 PM »

All right, Papist, as a fellow Vaticanist I'm going to challenge you.

Why would a Papist have a problem being affiliated with the Vatican?

I have had my disagreements with my mother the Roman church, but with all her flaws, she's still my mother and I love her.  And the Vatican she rode in on.

So there. Tongue Wink
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« Reply #108 on: December 09, 2010, 07:52:32 PM »

He's not really confused. He's just pretending to be confused to mess with us.
What an uncharitable accusation.

I would be truly shocked if you were being honest about not understanding Isa's "Vatican" language and my "Romanist" language.
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« Reply #109 on: December 09, 2010, 07:53:29 PM »

All right, Papist, as a fellow Vaticanist I'm going to challenge you.

Why would a Papist have a problem being affiliated with the Vatican?

I have had my disagreements with my mother the Roman church, but with all her flaws, she's still my mother and I love her.  And the Vatican she rode in on.

So there. Tongue Wink
I don't know of any Church called "The Vatican". That's all.
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« Reply #110 on: December 09, 2010, 07:55:28 PM »

Yeah, but since he's gonna do it anyway, why not claim it with pride?  "Nyah nyah, we're not only the true Church but we also have a whole country in Italy, with grrat cappucino and wine and stuff! Yay for us!"  Like that. Cheesy
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« Reply #111 on: December 09, 2010, 07:56:16 PM »

He's not really confused. He's just pretending to be confused to mess with us.
What an uncharitable accusation.

I would be truly shocked if you were being honest about not understanding Isa's "Vatican" language and my "Romanist" language.
So the Romanists are the Vatican? I guess that makes sense. The Vatican is in Rome, and people who are citizens of the Vatican could conceivably be called the Romanists. In the future when you refer to "Romanists" I will know that you are talking about people who live in the Vatican. Thank you for clearing that up.
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« Reply #112 on: December 09, 2010, 07:57:06 PM »

Yeah, but since he's gonna do it anyway, why not claim it with pride?  "Nyah nyah, we're not only the true Church but we also have a whole country in Italy, with grrat cappucino and wine and stuff! Yay for us!"  Like that. Cheesy
LOL. I mean, I suppose they are jealous of our City State. Who knows.
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« Reply #113 on: December 09, 2010, 07:59:23 PM »

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #114 on: December 09, 2010, 09:32:00 PM »

Roll Eyes



Need a hug?  Cheesy
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« Reply #115 on: December 09, 2010, 11:15:38 PM »


No. The only thing that would change my attitude is if you stopped playing dumb.
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« Reply #116 on: December 09, 2010, 11:58:49 PM »

Yes, we as the Orthodox have no clue what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Can the RC give it a rest? I  am Orthodox because I understand what the RC teaches and I reject those teachings. If I hear on more catholic claim we "just don't understand their faith" I'm going to puke. Seriously. Roll Eyes

As soon as EOs give lying about what we believe a rest.  Smiley

The Roman Catholics have this peculiar idea that others do not understand them,... But the Roman Catholic Church spends multi millions of dollars trying to communicate its faith and convert people.  It prints thousands of books every year on every imaginable Roman Catholic topic.

Is this really all a colossal failure? a colossal waste of money?   Really , dear Catholic brothers and sisters, if you cannot communicate your faith clearly, then whose fault is that?
Your fault for being dishonest.

Oh my!  A public attack on an priest!  Thank the Lord we are not on a Catholic forum where such attacks merit scoldings from other participants....
Martyr Syndrome.

You're the one who is incessantly self-victimizing (along with plenty of other Catholic posters here), and you're accusing him of a martyr complex?
Where? I have never called for a rule banning the insults of EOs agains the Christ's Church.

Do you remember the days on CAF when the Orthodox were forbidden to use the term "Catholic" in reference to their Church and those who did were banned?
I do remember.
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« Reply #117 on: December 09, 2010, 11:59:31 PM »


No. The only thing that would change my attitude is if you stopped playing dumb.
What about two hugs?
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« Reply #118 on: December 10, 2010, 12:51:21 AM »

Yeah, but since he's gonna do it anyway, why not claim it with pride?  "Nyah nyah, we're not only the true Church but we also have a whole country in Italy, with grrat cappucino and wine and stuff! Yay for us!"  Like that. Cheesy
Don't forget the museums.
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« Reply #119 on: December 10, 2010, 03:17:00 AM »


I don't know of any Church called "The Vatican". That's all.


We've been over this only a few days ago, you know.

The use of "The Vatican" is a perfectly normal manner of expression in the English language.

It is called metonymy.  Look it up.

So we say...


Buckingham Palace announces...

The White Hourse has decided...

10 Downing Street has announced...

The Phanar has said.....

 laugh
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« Reply #120 on: December 10, 2010, 09:16:28 AM »


I don't know of any Church called "The Vatican". That's all.


We've been over this only a few days ago, you know.

The use of "The Vatican" is a perfectly normal manner of expression in the English language.

It is called metonymy.  Look it up.

So we say...


Buckingham Palace announces...

The White Hourse has decided...

10 Downing Street has announced...

The Phanar has said.....

 laugh

You forgot the Kremlin! ...and Wall Street!!!! Smiley
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« Reply #121 on: December 10, 2010, 12:06:39 PM »

Is that the White Hourse of the Apocalypse? Wink
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« Reply #122 on: December 10, 2010, 01:02:24 PM »


I don't know of any Church called "The Vatican". That's all.


We've been over this only a few days ago, you know.

The use of "The Vatican" is a perfectly normal manner of expression in the English language.

It is called metonymy.  Look it up.

So we say...


Buckingham Palace announces...

The White Hourse has decided...

10 Downing Street has announced...

The Phanar has said.....

 laugh
Is the Greek Orthodox Church The Phanar?
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« Reply #123 on: December 10, 2010, 01:08:18 PM »


I don't know of any Church called "The Vatican". That's all.


We've been over this only a few days ago, you know.

The use of "The Vatican" is a perfectly normal manner of expression in the English language.

It is called metonymy.  Look it up.

So we say...


Buckingham Palace announces...

The White Hourse has decided...

10 Downing Street has announced...

The Phanar has said.....

 laugh
Is the Greek Orthodox Church The Phanar?
In many ways, yes. But then do you know that the Greek Orthodox Church is?
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« Reply #124 on: December 10, 2010, 05:21:25 PM »

This 'discussion' (I use the term loosely since this sub-forum is entitled " Orthodox-Catholic Discussion" is really embarrassing to me as a Christian. Perhaps my reply isn't OC ('OC' being an acronym, akin to 'PC', short for 'orthodox correct'), but I regard Roman Catholics as my friends, brothers, sisters and neighbors and, like me, sinners on the path to God through this life. As to their Church, I regard it with both personal affection and profound sadness as I view it as not being part of the undivided body of Christ and her Church which I believe is present in this earth in the body of our Orthodox Faith.  and...I pray for the day that we may all be as one in the fullness of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Anyone  not Roman Catholic or Orthodox who might stumble upon this 'discussion' would surely run for the hills.

Thank you so much for saying this.  I'd say more, but.... Cool
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« Reply #125 on: December 10, 2010, 05:21:25 PM »

Is the Greek Orthodox Church The Phanar?
See...I wouldn't refer to the Greek Orthodox Church as "The Phanar" either, just as I would not refer to my own Church (or appreciate anyone else referring to it) as "The Vatican." To me, both of those terms are wrong and inaccurate. The Phanar is not the entire Greek Orthodox Church just as the Vatican is not the entire [Roman] Catholic Church.
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« Reply #126 on: December 11, 2010, 12:24:56 AM »

How to consider Roman Catholics... Is it okay if I don't consider them at all? Wink
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« Reply #127 on: December 11, 2010, 12:35:36 AM »

How to consider the Roman Catholics... Is it okay if I don't consider them at all? Wink
Better still.
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« Reply #128 on: December 11, 2010, 12:47:29 AM »

Hey, it wasn't one of us RC's  who asked the question in the first place.
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« Reply #129 on: December 11, 2010, 12:51:23 AM »

As to their Church, I regard it with both personal affection and profound sadness as I view it as not being part of the undivided body of Christ and her Church which I believe is present in this earth in the body of our Orthodox Faith. 

I wonder if you are not being a little harsh there, Podkarpatska.  Smiley

We all remember that Pope Benedict XIV issued a Statement in which he said that the Orthodox Church, although a "true" Church, suffers from defects.  Moscow praised this document for its honesty and how could it do otherwise since we ourselves hold the same view of Roman Catholicism, namely that it is defective.  So I think that for us the ecumenical dialogue means "speaking the truth in love" so that a process of healing may begin in the Western Churches.

Here are a few words from the recently glorified Saint Philaret, Metropolitan of Moscow and Primate of the Russian Church.  He could almost be seen as holding a "two lung" image of the Church since he see Catholicism as the ailing other half of Christianity.

You expect now that I should give judgement concerning the other half of present Christianity,'
the Metropolitan said in the concluding conversation, 'but I just simply look upon them; in part
I see how the Head and Lord of the Church heals the many deep wounds of the old serpent in
all the parts and limbs of his Body, applying now gentle, now strong, remedies, even fire and iron,
in order to soften hardness, to draw out poison, to clean wounds, to separate out malignant
growths, to restore spirit and life in the numbed and half-dead members. In this way I attest
my faith that, in the end, the power of God will triumph openly over human weakness, good
over evil, unity over division, life over death'
(ibid., p.135).

These statements of Metropolitan Saint Philaret are a beginning only. Not everything in them is clearly and fully expressed. But the question is truly put. There are many bonds, still not broken, whereby the schisms are held together in a certain unity with the Church. The whole of our attention and our will must be concentrated and directed towards removing the stubbornness of dissension. 'We seek not conquest,' says St Gregory of Nazianzen, 'but the return of our brethren, whose separation from us is tearing us apart.'

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/limits_church.htm
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« Reply #130 on: December 11, 2010, 12:55:52 AM »

Hey, it wasn't one of us RC's  who asked the question in the first place.
You do realize I was just being facetious? Wink
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« Reply #131 on: December 11, 2010, 01:03:07 AM »

How to consider Roman Catholics... Is it okay if I don't consider them at all? Wink


I love them!   Our best soprano in the choir is a Roman Catholic and, until recently our best bass.  The Lebanese Catholic lady who runs Martha's Pantry round the corner feeds me once a week and so do the sisters from the Home of Compassion.  The Roman Catholic school teacher who makes her car available when needed.  The nuns who pulled someone back from a serious illness when I asked their prayers.  Of course there are a few annoying ones - the man who turns up at Liturgy and hands out the Miraculous Medal and tries to proselytise our people.  Smiley  But on the whole, a great bunch of people.  God bless them.
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« Reply #132 on: December 11, 2010, 01:04:28 AM »

Hey, it wasn't one of us RC's  who asked the question in the first place.
You do realize I was just being facetious? Wink

I have found, to my detriment and not a few green spots, that Americans don't always pick up on facetiousness or irony.   laugh
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« Reply #133 on: December 11, 2010, 03:36:37 AM »

Hey, it wasn't one of us RC's  who asked the question in the first place.
You do realize I was just being facetious? Wink

I have found, to my detriment and not a few green spots, that Americans don't always pick up on facetiousness or irony.   laugh
That's what smileys are for. Grin
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« Reply #134 on: December 11, 2010, 04:32:47 PM »

As to their Church, I regard it with both personal affection and profound sadness as I view it as not being part of the undivided body of Christ and her Church which I believe is present in this earth in the body of our Orthodox Faith. 

I wonder if you are not being a little harsh there, Podkarpatska.  Smiley

We all remember that Pope Benedict XIV issued a Statement in which he said that the Orthodox Church, although a "true" Church, suffers from defects.  Moscow praised this document for its honesty and how could it do otherwise since we ourselves hold the same view of Roman Catholicism, namely that it is defective.  So I think that for us the ecumenical dialogue means "speaking the truth in love" so that a process of healing may begin in the Western Churches.

Here are a few words from the recently glorified Saint Philaret, Metropolitan of Moscow and Primate of the Russian Church.  He could almost be seen as holding a "two lung" image of the Church since he see Catholicism as the ailing other half of Christianity.

You expect now that I should give judgement concerning the other half of present Christianity,'
the Metropolitan said in the concluding conversation, 'but I just simply look upon them; in part
I see how the Head and Lord of the Church heals the many deep wounds of the old serpent in
all the parts and limbs of his Body, applying now gentle, now strong, remedies, even fire and iron,
in order to soften hardness, to draw out poison, to clean wounds, to separate out malignant
growths, to restore spirit and life in the numbed and half-dead members. In this way I attest
my faith that, in the end, the power of God will triumph openly over human weakness, good
over evil, unity over division, life over death'
(ibid., p.135).

These statements of Metropolitan Saint Philaret are a beginning only. Not everything in them is clearly and fully expressed. But the question is truly put. There are many bonds, still not broken, whereby the schisms are held together in a certain unity with the Church. The whole of our attention and our will must be concentrated and directed towards removing the stubbornness of dissension. 'We seek not conquest,' says St Gregory of Nazianzen, 'but the return of our brethren, whose separation from us is tearing us apart.'

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/limits_church.htm


Thank you Father. I concur with the sentiments of St. Philaret . I was a tad harsh in my choice of words as upon re-reading them, I see that they don't really follow overall thoughts on the subject.
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« Reply #135 on: December 12, 2010, 12:16:30 AM »

How to consider the Roman Catholics... Is it okay if I don't consider them at all? Wink
Better still.


Sigh...   Cry
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« Reply #136 on: December 12, 2010, 12:25:10 AM »

How to consider the Roman Catholics... Is it okay if I don't consider them at all? Wink
Better still.


Sigh...   Cry

I'd rather many EO didn't consider us at all. It beats obsession and paranoia  Wink
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« Reply #137 on: December 12, 2010, 12:36:09 AM »

Oh dear  Embarrassed

This is going to be one of those things, isn't it.
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« Reply #138 on: December 12, 2010, 01:25:02 AM »

Look at all the fruitful dialog that my initial comment generated! Glory to God!  Smiley
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« Reply #139 on: December 12, 2010, 01:40:19 AM »

How to consider the Roman Catholics... Is it okay if I don't consider them at all? Wink
Better still.


Sigh...   Cry

I'd rather many EO didn't consider us at all. It beats obsession and paranoia  Wink
I'm glad you see the humor in my tongue-in-cheek little quip. laugh
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« Reply #140 on: December 12, 2010, 01:48:31 AM »

How to consider the Roman Catholics... Is it okay if I don't consider them at all? Wink
Better still.


Sigh...   Cry

I'd rather many EO didn't consider us at all. It beats obsession and paranoia  Wink

There is more than one aspect to our obsession and paranoia.  We are afraid of you.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31887.msg505749/topicseen.html#msg505749
« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 02:06:05 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #141 on: December 12, 2010, 01:51:08 AM »

Peter, I like a good joke as much as anyone else, but to be honest I didn't take it as such. My apologies as I see your intent now. But perhaps it's because others here have posted similar comments but NOT as jokes - sometimes it's hard to tell. Wink
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« Reply #142 on: December 12, 2010, 08:17:01 AM »

How to consider the Roman Catholics... Is it okay if I don't consider them at all? Wink
Better still.


Sigh...   Cry

I'd rather many EO didn't consider us at all. It beats obsession and paranoia  Wink
Exactly.


While we're at it....

Dear Lord,

Please make the evangelicals not consider us as well.

Amen.
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« Reply #143 on: December 12, 2010, 11:44:45 PM »

The Vatican is actually a Borg collective, get ready for assimilation...
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« Reply #144 on: December 13, 2010, 12:01:48 AM »

How to consider the Roman Catholics... Is it okay if I don't consider them at all? Wink
Better still.


Sigh...   Cry

I'd rather many EO didn't consider us at all. It beats obsession and paranoia  Wink

There is more than one aspect to our obsession and paranoia.  We are afraid of you.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31887.msg505749/topicseen.html#msg505749

Thanks, IrishHermit. That very post proves my point about paranoia. I suggest you relax. Paranoia is not good for the blood pressure.
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« Reply #145 on: December 13, 2010, 12:19:28 AM »

How to consider the Roman Catholics... Is it okay if I don't consider them at all? Wink
Better still.


Sigh...   Cry

I'd rather many EO didn't consider us at all. It beats obsession and paranoia  Wink

There is more than one aspect to our obsession and paranoia.  We are afraid of you.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31887.msg505749/topicseen.html#msg505749

Thanks, IrishHermit. That very post proves my point about paranoia. I suggest you relax. Paranoia is not good for the blood pressure.

Indications of my paranoia.

1. I have lived in the holy monastery of Zica where there is a perpetual novice who will never be a nun.  She watched her pregnant mother be disembowelled by Catholics and is not psychologically normal..

2. I had to drive the Volkswagen Kombi into Kraljevo several days a week for supplies for the monastery (there were 29 of us.)  On the way we passed a mound near the monastery in Kraljevo where 5,000 students (!) were buried after their brutal killing by knife and axe (not even the mercy of a quick bullet.)   It was a Franciscan friar who started the bloodshed.  He went into a classroom in Kraljevo with his band of vile characters.  He selected a little girl and sat her on his knee at the front of the class.  He said, "Now I am going to show you how we must baptize the Orthodox" and he took his knife and slit the girl's throat.

And so began the slaughter of the students of Kraljevo....

If you know nothing of what transpired in WWII make an attempt to read material on the Net.  Even the Nazis in Yugoslavia expressed their distaste at the savagery with which the Catholic Croatians slaughtered the Orthodox.

These things colour one's perception of another religious system, I do not deny it.  Knowing these things maybe you can understand why they factor into my perception of Roman Catholics. I understand that you, living in tolerant multi-religious America, may not know of these things and may not take them seriously.

But do you understand the visceral fear which can take hold of a man...?


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« Reply #146 on: December 13, 2010, 12:27:33 AM »

How to consider the Roman Catholics... Is it okay if I don't consider them at all? Wink
Better still.


Sigh...   Cry

I'd rather many EO didn't consider us at all. It beats obsession and paranoia  Wink

There is more than one aspect to our obsession and paranoia.  We are afraid of you.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31887.msg505749/topicseen.html#msg505749

Thanks, IrishHermit. That very post proves my point about paranoia. I suggest you relax. Paranoia is not good for the blood pressure.

Indications of my paranoia.

1. I have lived in the holy monastery of Zica where there is a perpetual novice who will never be a nun.  She watched her pregnant mother be disembowelled by Catholics and is not psychologically normal..

2. I had to drive the Volkswagen Kombi into Kraljevo several days a week for supplies for the monastery (there were 29 of us.)  On the way we passed a mound near the monastery in Kraljevo where 5,000 students (!) were buried after their brutal killing by knife and axe (not even the mercy of a quick bullet.)   It was a Franciscan friar who started the bloodshed.  He went into a classroom in Kraljevo with his band of vile characters.  He selected a little girl and sat her on his knee at the front of the class.  He said, "Now I am going to show you how we must baptize the Orthodox" and he took his knife and slit the girl's throat.

And so began the slaughter of the students of Kraljevo....

If you know nothing of what transpired in WWII make an attempt to read material on the Net.  Even the Nazis in Yugoslavia expressed their distaste at the savagery with which the Catholic Croatians slaughtered the Orthodox.

These things colour one's perception of another religious system, I do not deny it.  Knowing these things maybe you can understand why they factor into my perception of Roman Catholics. I understand that you, living in tolerant multi-religious America, may not know of these things and may not take them seriously.

But do you understand the visceral fear which can take hold of a man...?
I recall that the Encyclopedia Judaica states that the Orthodox Serbs in Yugoslavia suffered as much as the Jews in WWII. Hmmm. Who was  murdering Orthodox Serbs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Usta%C5%A1e

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Usta%C5%A1e#Vatican_.22ratlines.22
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« Reply #147 on: December 13, 2010, 12:37:33 AM »


Indications of my paranoia.

1. I have lived in the holy monastery of Zica where there is a perpetual novice who will never be a nun.  She watched her pregnant mother be disembowelled by Catholics and is not psychologically normal..

2. I had to drive the Volkswagen Kombi into Kraljevo several days a week for supplies for the monastery (there were 29 of us.)  On the way we passed a mound near the monastery in Kraljevo where 5,000 students (!) were buried after their brutal killing by knife and axe (not even the mercy of a quick bullet.)   It was a Franciscan friar who started the bloodshed.  He went into a classroom in Kraljevo with his band of vile characters.  He selected a little girl and sat her on his knee at the front of the class.  He said, "Now I am going to show you how we must baptize the Orthodox" and he took his knife and slit the girl's throat.

And so began the slaughter of the students of Kraljevo....

If you know nothing of what transpired in WWII make an attempt to read material on the Net.  Even the Nazis in Yugoslavia expressed their distaste at the savagery with which the Catholic Croatians slaughtered the Orthodox.

These things colour one's perception of another religious system, I do not deny it.  Knowing these things maybe you can understand why they factor into my perception of Roman Catholics. I understand that you, living in tolerant multi-religious America, may not know of these things and may not take them seriously.

But do you understand the visceral fear which can take hold of a man...?


I have heard many other first hand accounts that mirror what you have said.  The former Priest at my parish lived through these things and even wrote a book about them called "So Help Me God".  Anyone that is interested only needs to Google "Vatican Croatian Atrocities" and see why there are those of us that will never trust the RCC.  So when the RC's say that we are still all butt-hurt about the sacking of Constantinople, they really don't know what they are talking about.  The history of RC/Orthodox relations have been bloody many times after that.  
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« Reply #148 on: December 13, 2010, 12:51:00 AM »

Christians have been killing their fellow Christians for centuries.  Do you think the Catholics you refer to did these atrocities BECAUSE of the teachings of their Church or in SPITE of them?
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« Reply #149 on: December 13, 2010, 01:02:44 AM »

Of course, when Orthodox have killed Catholics, they are never at fault.

All of this is silly. As if the evil actions of a group of Catholics in one country in one brief period of history can represent an entire church of a billion members? IrishHermit has even compared us to Islam. Paranoia again. And un-Christian behavior, I call it. Ever hear of charity? No? Then start learning it by first not condemning a whole church because of the actions of an extremely small number of its members.

And I know what I'm going to say is strong, but I must say it: Expressing hatred instead of love and forgiveness is like spitting on those mass graves. They died because of hatred, and more hatred just continues the circle of hatred.



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« Reply #150 on: December 13, 2010, 03:28:39 AM »

Christians have been killing their fellow Christians for centuries.  Do you think the Catholics you refer to did these atrocities BECAUSE of the teachings of their Church or in SPITE of them?

Those who know the centuries long history of contact bnetwen the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches know that this persecution and slaughter is repeated rather regulalry, enough to say that it is a feature of Roman Catholicism.

American Roman Catholics are not aware of this history in Europe and the Middle East and it is a shock to them and the first reaction is one of instinctive denial.  I can understand that.  There was a time when I was a bit of a naive young New Zealander and would have found it hard to credit also.

The topic of this thread is "How to consider Roman Catholics"  and I am simply telling you how I consider them. I do not consider them as blood thirsty barbarians because they are not.  But there have been occasions when they have acted in such a manner and with enough regularity that it is a factor in how I consider Roman Catholics.  Sorry if my honesty offends.

"Forgive we must, forget we dare not."
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« Reply #151 on: December 13, 2010, 03:37:57 AM »


And I know what I'm going to say is strong, but I must say it: Expressing hatred instead of love and forgiveness


Please be a little careful not to misrepresent me, lubeltri.  You are using dishonest tactics.

I do not hate Catholics.  I am aware of their history and know of their evil deeds against the Orthodox and this is one of my considerations when I judge Roman Catholics.

But you should have notice that I often end messages on this sad topic with the words of the Serbian Patriarch about the slaughter during the war period... words of forgiveness.

"Forgive we must, forget we dare not" ~  "Oprostiti moramo, zaboraviti ne smemo."
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« Reply #152 on: December 13, 2010, 03:45:23 AM »

This thread has become very visceral... Cry
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« Reply #153 on: December 13, 2010, 03:48:46 AM »

This thread has become very visceral... Cry

There was a time when the bowels were regarded as the seat of the emotions.... and I suppose the use of this word "visceral" is a survival from that period.
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« Reply #154 on: December 13, 2010, 11:08:34 AM »


And I know what I'm going to say is strong, but I must say it: Expressing hatred instead of love and forgiveness


Please be a little careful not to misrepresent me, lubeltri.  You are using dishonest tactics.

I do not hate Catholics.  I am aware of their history and know of their evil deeds against the Orthodox and this is one of my considerations when I judge Roman Catholics.

But you should have notice that I often end messages on this sad topic with the words of the Serbian Patriarch about the slaughter during the war period... words of forgiveness.

"Forgive we must, forget we dare not" ~  "Oprostiti moramo, zaboraviti ne smemo."
Fr. Ambrose, I know of the evil that has been committed by the EO Church. BUT, I only mention so that you don't forget that the members of your communion are not without blood on their hands. Ignoring this little fact is dishonesty on your part.
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« Reply #155 on: December 13, 2010, 11:10:40 AM »

Christians have been killing their fellow Christians for centuries.  Do you think the Catholics you refer to did these atrocities BECAUSE of the teachings of their Church or in SPITE of them?

Those who know the centuries long history of contact bnetwen the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches know that this persecution and slaughter is repeated rather regulalry, enough to say that it is a feature of Roman Catholicism.

American Roman Catholics are not aware of this history in Europe and the Middle East and it is a shock to them and the first reaction is one of instinctive denial.  I can understand that.  There was a time when I was a bit of a naive young New Zealander and would have found it hard to credit also.

The topic of this thread is "How to consider Roman Catholics"  and I am simply telling you how I consider them. I do not consider them as blood thirsty barbarians because they are not.  But there have been occasions when they have acted in such a manner and with enough regularity that it is a factor in how I consider Roman Catholics.  Sorry if my honesty offends.

"Forgive we must, forget we dare not."
And there are instances when Eastern Orthodox Christians have behaved as blood thirsty barbarians. But let's forget that little bit of reality so that Fr. A can be as dishonest as he chooses.
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« Reply #156 on: December 13, 2010, 12:43:15 PM »

I'm curious, could you list these instances and the bishops behind them?  I'm aware of some mob activity, but not any instances where there was an official ruling of any Orthodox churches calling for the murder of RCs.



And I know what I'm going to say is strong, but I must say it: Expressing hatred instead of love and forgiveness


Please be a little careful not to misrepresent me, lubeltri.  You are using dishonest tactics.

I do not hate Catholics.  I am aware of their history and know of their evil deeds against the Orthodox and this is one of my considerations when I judge Roman Catholics.

But you should have notice that I often end messages on this sad topic with the words of the Serbian Patriarch about the slaughter during the war period... words of forgiveness.

"Forgive we must, forget we dare not" ~  "Oprostiti moramo, zaboraviti ne smemo."
Fr. Ambrose, I know of the evil that has been committed by the EO Church. BUT, I only mention so that you don't forget that the members of your communion are not without blood on their hands. Ignoring this little fact is dishonesty on your part.
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« Reply #157 on: December 13, 2010, 01:39:01 PM »

Christians have been killing their fellow Christians for centuries.  Do you think the Catholics you refer to did these atrocities BECAUSE of the teachings of their Church or in SPITE of them?

Your beliefs are not the main problem. The main problem is your institution.
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« Reply #158 on: December 13, 2010, 01:52:33 PM »

FatherGiryus, when was there an OFFICIAL ruling by the Roman Catholic Church calling for the murder of EO's?
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« Reply #159 on: December 13, 2010, 02:03:50 PM »

FatherGiryus, when was there an OFFICIAL ruling by the Roman Catholic Church calling for the murder of EO's?

Did you read Isa's link?
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« Reply #160 on: December 13, 2010, 02:08:22 PM »

No.  I don't have the ability to follow links on my mobile connection.  Would you just tell me, please?
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« Reply #161 on: December 13, 2010, 02:54:27 PM »

No.  I don't have the ability to follow links on my mobile connection.  Would you just tell me, please?

Basically, it tells about the collaboration between the Vatican and the Ustasha regime in Croatia during WWII. The regime was Nazi-backed, and carried out massive a genocide against the Orthodox Serbs and Croats. Pope Pius XII was apparently a supporter of Croation Catholic nationalism and latently permitted the actions being carried out by fundamentalist clergy. He was heavily criticized for refusing to cut ties with the Ustasha, and entertained their Catholic leader, Ante Pavelich, twice. More directly in charge of the situation was Abp. Aloysius Stepinac, archbishop of Zagreb, who ended up being indicted in post-war trials for backing the Ustasha (but nor for war crimes per se) and sentenced to sixteen years in prison. When his sentence was cut short, Pope Pius elevated him to the status of cardinal, and he was beatified by Pope John Paul II.

To make myself clear, I am not concerned with proving that this could never be done by Orthodox bishops (it has). What I do hope to show is that this is a terrible example of why the whole Church should not look up to a single human leader for guidance. Again, I am not trying to point fingers or even take a particular stance in this argument. I am just throwing in my 2 cents.
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« Reply #162 on: December 13, 2010, 03:35:18 PM »

No.  I don't have the ability to follow links on my mobile connection.  Would you just tell me, please?

Basically, it tells about the collaboration between the Vatican and the Ustasha regime in Croatia during WWII. The regime was Nazi-backed, and carried out massive a genocide against the Orthodox Serbs and Croats. Pope Pius XII was apparently a supporter of Croation Catholic nationalism and latently permitted the actions being carried out by fundamentalist clergy. He was heavily criticized for refusing to cut ties with the Ustasha, and entertained their Catholic leader, Ante Pavelich, twice. More directly in charge of the situation was Abp. Aloysius Stepinac, archbishop of Zagreb, who ended up being indicted in post-war trials for backing the Ustasha (but nor for war crimes per se) and sentenced to sixteen years in prison. When his sentence was cut short, Pope Pius elevated him to the status of cardinal, and he was beatified by Pope John Paul II.

To make myself clear, I am not concerned with proving that this could never be done by Orthodox bishops (it has). What I do hope to show is that this is a terrible example of why the whole Church should not look up to a single human leader for guidance. Again, I am not trying to point fingers or even take a particular stance in this argument. I am just throwing in my 2 cents.
While the above is true, the section I cited deals with the 1990's when all of us were alive:during the drive for independence Trdujman, a "historian" and the Croatian leader and president, began writing denying the Ustashe atrocities, renaming streets and square to honor them, adopting symbols of the Ustashe as the symbols of the new state (somewhat inevitable, given that parts of the symbols are of old provinence).  Here in the US, in Chicago, I saw lots of bumper stickers showing this

with Za dom - spremni! "For home-we are ready!" written over it: its the Croatian version of Sieg Heil!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Za_dom_-_spremni!

Needless the say, the Serbs saw no reason to wait when when the Croats were doing this, banning Cyrillic etc. to wait for what would come next. So the Krajina, heavily Serb for centuries, voted to cecede from Croatia, as Croatia voted to cecede from Yugoslavia (molded in its socialist form by a Croat).  The Croats, however, didn't see it that way, and while breaking away from Yugoslavia, came down hard on the Krajina.

IIRC, the Vatican was the first state to recognize Trudjman's independence.
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« Reply #163 on: December 13, 2010, 05:23:06 PM »

I'm officially exiting this thread.  My apologies if anything I've said has been uncharitable.
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« Reply #164 on: December 13, 2010, 05:29:03 PM »


To make myself clear, I am not concerned with proving that this could never be done by Orthodox bishops (it has).
Can you share an example?
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« Reply #165 on: December 13, 2010, 05:30:11 PM »

I'm curious, could you list these instances and the bishops behind them?  I'm aware of some mob activity, but not any instances where there was an official ruling of any Orthodox churches calling for the murder of RCs.



And I know what I'm going to say is strong, but I must say it: Expressing hatred instead of love and forgiveness


Please be a little careful not to misrepresent me, lubeltri.  You are using dishonest tactics.

I do not hate Catholics.  I am aware of their history and know of their evil deeds against the Orthodox and this is one of my considerations when I judge Roman Catholics.

But you should have notice that I often end messages on this sad topic with the words of the Serbian Patriarch about the slaughter during the war period... words of forgiveness.

"Forgive we must, forget we dare not" ~  "Oprostiti moramo, zaboraviti ne smemo."
Fr. Ambrose, I know of the evil that has been committed by the EO Church. BUT, I only mention so that you don't forget that the members of your communion are not without blood on their hands. Ignoring this little fact is dishonesty on your part.
I am not as well aquainted with EO history as some, but I refuse to believe that every EO bishop has been a saintly man with no blood on their hands.
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« Reply #166 on: December 13, 2010, 05:44:44 PM »


Fr. Ambrose, I know of the evil that has been committed by the EO Church. BUT, I only mention so that you don't forget that the members of your communion are not without blood on their hands. Ignoring this little fact is dishonesty on your part.

Please look at the purpose of this thread - "HOW  TO  CONSIDER  ROMAN  CATHOLICS"

I am explaining to the forum how I consider Roman Catholics.

The thread is NOT about how I consider Orthodox, and to say that I am dishonest for not speaking about the Orthodox is, well, slightly irrational.

If you wish to speak about Orthodox atrocities against other religious groups, I have no objection.  Go ahead.

But, I repeat, that is not the purpose of this thread and it is quite illogical to call me dishonest for speaking to the subject of the thread.

I'd like an apology.

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« Reply #167 on: December 13, 2010, 05:51:17 PM »

Christians have been killing their fellow Christians for centuries.  Do you think the Catholics you refer to did these atrocities BECAUSE of the teachings of their Church or in SPITE of them?

Those who know the centuries long history of contact bnetwen the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches know that this persecution and slaughter is repeated rather regulalry, enough to say that it is a feature of Roman Catholicism.

American Roman Catholics are not aware of this history in Europe and the Middle East and it is a shock to them and the first reaction is one of instinctive denial.  I can understand that.  There was a time when I was a bit of a naive young New Zealander and would have found it hard to credit also.

The topic of this thread is "How to consider Roman Catholics"  and I am simply telling you how I consider them. I do not consider them as blood thirsty barbarians because they are not.  But there have been occasions when they have acted in such a manner and with enough regularity that it is a factor in how I consider Roman Catholics.  Sorry if my honesty offends.

"Forgive we must, forget we dare not."
And there are instances when Eastern Orthodox Christians have behaved as blood thirsty barbarians. But let's forget that little bit of reality so that Fr. A can be as dishonest as he chooses.

Again, what has become your favourite mantra ~ "Father Ambrose is dishonest."  I hope my previous post shows you how irrational that claim is.

If you wish to introduce instances of Orthodox atrocities into this thread, I will not object.  I would like to hear your information - dates, countries, etc.  It is off topic though and so why don't you start a new thread.
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« Reply #168 on: December 13, 2010, 05:56:44 PM »

How to consider the Roman Catholics... Is it okay if I don't consider them at all? Wink
Better still.


Sigh...   Cry

I'd rather many EO didn't consider us at all. It beats obsession and paranoia  Wink

There is more than one aspect to our obsession and paranoia.  We are afraid of you.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31887.msg505749/topicseen.html#msg505749

Thanks, IrishHermit. That very post proves my point about paranoia. I suggest you relax. Paranoia is not good for the blood pressure.

I was an anti-Vietnam war activist. I kept telling people I was being followed. I kept saying my phone was tapped. I was suspicious of one of my roommates. I claimed a rash of office burglaries was done by the Police... My friends and family thought I  was Nuts / Paranoid

After the FBI's Co-intel papers were released it turned out that I had been followed, my phone was tapped, one of my room mates was on the FBI payroll and all the break-ins were done by the FBI.  Shocked   
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« Reply #169 on: December 13, 2010, 06:00:20 PM »

How to consider the Roman Catholics... Is it okay if I don't consider them at all? Wink
Better still.


Sigh...   Cry

I'd rather many EO didn't consider us at all. It beats obsession and paranoia  Wink

There is more than one aspect to our obsession and paranoia.  We are afraid of you.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31887.msg505749/topicseen.html#msg505749

Thanks, IrishHermit. That very post proves my point about paranoia. I suggest you relax. Paranoia is not good for the blood pressure.

I was an anti-Vietnam war activist. I kept telling people I was being followed. I kept saying my phone was tapped. I was suspicious of one of my roommates. I claimed a rash of office burglaries was done by the Police... My friends and family thought I  was Nuts / Paranoid

After the FBI's Co-intel papers were released it turned out that I had been followed, my phone was tapped, one of my room mates was on the FBI payroll and all the break-ins were done by the FBI.  Shocked   

LOL. Must've been an active activist to catch that much attention.
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« Reply #170 on: December 13, 2010, 06:05:04 PM »

The Vatican is actually a Borg collective, get ready for assimilation...

This is how some see the Roman Catholic Church, but look closely and you will find many disparate elements, and the Pope of Rome not able to control all the rabble.
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« Reply #171 on: December 13, 2010, 10:46:22 PM »

Christians have been killing their fellow Christians for centuries.  Do you think the Catholics you refer to did these atrocities BECAUSE of the teachings of their Church or in SPITE of them?

Those who know the centuries long history of contact bnetwen the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches know that this persecution and slaughter is repeated rather regulalry, enough to say that it is a feature of Roman Catholicism.

American Roman Catholics are not aware of this history in Europe and the Middle East and it is a shock to them and the first reaction is one of instinctive denial.  I can understand that.  There was a time when I was a bit of a naive young New Zealander and would have found it hard to credit also.

The topic of this thread is "How to consider Roman Catholics"  and I am simply telling you how I consider them. I do not consider them as blood thirsty barbarians because they are not.  But there have been occasions when they have acted in such a manner and with enough regularity that it is a factor in how I consider Roman Catholics.  Sorry if my honesty offends.

"Forgive we must, forget we dare not."
And there are instances when Eastern Orthodox Christians have behaved as blood thirsty barbarians. But let's forget that little bit of reality so that Fr. A can be as dishonest as he chooses.

Again, what has become your favourite mantra ~ "Father Ambrose is dishonest."  I hope my previous post shows you how irrational that claim is.

If you wish to introduce instances of Orthodox atrocities into this thread, I will not object.  I would like to hear your information - dates, countries, etc.  It is off topic though and so why don't you start a new thread.
Nope. you behaving in a dishonest manner. You apply a double standard. When the EOs murdered the Latins, you justify it. But when Catholics kill EOs, you act as you were the one martyred.
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« Reply #172 on: December 13, 2010, 11:16:51 PM »

Nope. you behaving in a dishonest manner. You apply a double standard. When the EOs murdered the Latins, you justify it.


Papist, I am growing weary of your lies, for that, plainly said, is what they are, and you repeat and repeat them.

"In your haste to condemn me, you missed what I said in message 151:  ...it was not justified for the Greeks to slaughter Italians"
See message 151 at

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31887.msg506504.html#msg506504

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« Reply #173 on: December 13, 2010, 11:19:50 PM »

Nope. you behaving in a dishonest manner. You apply a double standard. When the EOs murdered the Latins, you justify it.


Papist, I am growing weary of your lies, for that, plainly said, is what they are, and you repeat and repeat them.

"In your haste to condemn me, you missed what I said in message 151:  ...it was not justified for the Greeks to slaughter Italians"
See message 151 at

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31887.msg506504.html#msg506504


So after mulitple justifications for slaughter of the Latins, you sheepishly say "it was not justified" without any the rhetoric that you apply to reverse situations. I see.
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« Reply #174 on: December 13, 2010, 11:45:04 PM »

Nope. you behaving in a dishonest manner. You apply a double standard. When the EOs murdered the Latins, you justify it.


Papist, I am growing weary of your lies, for that, plainly said, is what they are, and you repeat and repeat them.

"In your haste to condemn me, you missed what I said in message 151:  ...it was not justified for the Greeks to slaughter Italians"
See message 151 at

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31887.msg506504.html#msg506504



So after mulitple justifications for slaughter of the Latins, you sheepishly say "it was not justified" without any the rhetoric that you apply to reverse situations. I see.


 This barrage of false accusations grows positively tinged with darkness in my view. God forgive you. Show us where I ever offered "mulitple justifications for slaughter of the Latins."
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« Reply #175 on: December 14, 2010, 12:32:21 AM »

Old Screwtape is loving this so called discussion, make him happy, keep it going...

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« Reply #176 on: December 14, 2010, 01:08:58 AM »

Just a thought, but deciding how and what you are going to believe before you have evidence is a classic example of how major mistakes are made, particularly heresies.

I am not as well aquainted with EO history as some, but I refuse to believe that every EO bishop has been a saintly man with no blood on their hands.
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« Reply #177 on: December 16, 2010, 11:21:29 PM »

How to consider the Roman Catholics... Is it okay if I don't consider them at all? Wink
Better still.


Sigh...   Cry

I'd rather many EO didn't consider us at all. It beats obsession and paranoia  Wink

There is more than one aspect to our obsession and paranoia.  We are afraid of you.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,31887.msg505749/topicseen.html#msg505749

Thanks, IrishHermit. That very post proves my point about paranoia. I suggest you relax. Paranoia is not good for the blood pressure.

I was an anti-Vietnam war activist. I kept telling people I was being followed. I kept saying my phone was tapped. I was suspicious of one of my roommates. I claimed a rash of office burglaries was done by the Police... My friends and family thought I  was Nuts / Paranoid

After the FBI's Co-intel papers were released it turned out that I had been followed, my phone was tapped, one of my room mates was on the FBI payroll and all the break-ins were done by the FBI.  Shocked   

That's pretty cool. Well, also scary...
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« Reply #178 on: December 21, 2010, 11:27:08 AM »