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Author Topic: the roots of pedophilia?  (Read 3668 times) Average Rating: 0
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erracht
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« on: April 07, 2004, 04:58:37 PM »

I have just read some tragic news from Toronto: after five months of searching, the remains of Cecilia Zhang, a little girl that had been abducted right from her home, were found just before what would have been her 10th birthday. I need not describe the grieving that is going on in my hometown and it's far from the first case. I had mentioned Holly Jones, of a similar age, who was abducted, sexually assulted and murdered in Toronto well under a year ago; these cases seem to be piling up in North America.

There are parts of the world where it seems that such wicked deeds are unknown. Why do people rape and murder children where we are from? Is there any way of answering how we came to have such perversion among us?

What is the solution?
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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2004, 05:10:29 PM »

People with sexual diseases are like alcoholics.  I highly recommend 12 step programs. They aren't going to work for everyone, but they certainly can make a difference, even among paedophiles.

www.sa.org

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« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2004, 05:56:51 PM »

Quote
There are parts of the world where it seems that such wicked deeds are unknown.
 In many of those parts of the world, things like that happen but are not talked about or written about.  In some places women and girls are deemed as having so little value that even this kind of thing is not considered newsworthy.  During the heyday of the U.S.S.R., Soviet countries claimed they didn't have mentally handicapped people.  The truth was that they locked those people away and provided for them minimally; they were treated very cruelly.
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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2004, 06:05:10 PM »

People with sexual diseases are like alcoholics.  I highly recommend 12 step programs. They aren't going to work for everyone, but they certainly can make a difference, even among paedophiles.

www.sa.org

anastasios

'fraid not Anastasios. Sexual predators cannot be cured; it's hard wired in their brains. Ship 'em all off to an island.

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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2004, 06:08:36 PM »

oops, posted before I finished.

There may be parts of the world in which this kind of thing doesn't happen - some small, traditional groups where everyone knows everyone else and there's never enough privacy to allow this to happen.  Here we're so mobile, and so few of us are still located near extended families, that it's easy to be in a neighborhood full of strangers.   I think that helps explain how it can happen so easily.  The only thing, though, that explains how anyone could even think of doing such a thing is that human nature is corrupt; sometimes extremely so.  Sad
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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2004, 06:23:03 PM »

'fraid not Anastasios. Sexual predators cannot be cured; it's hard wired in their brains. Ship 'em all off to an island.



Sorry, Tom, that's neither scientific nor a reflection on the Christian/Orthodox teaching.  Just like an alcoholic, the temptation will probably always be there, but paedophiles can stop acting out and live normal, Christian lives (although they should always be monitored).

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« Last Edit: April 07, 2004, 07:28:18 PM by anastasios » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2004, 09:37:01 PM »

In addition, if that were true, they wouldn't be responsible for their actions.
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2004, 10:01:37 PM »

Sorry, Tom, that's neither scientific nor a reflection on the Christian/Orthodox teaching.  Just like an alcoholic, the temptation will probably always be there, but paedophiles can stop acting out and live normal, Christian lives (although they should always be monitored).

anastasios

It certainly is scientific. It's just that the shrinks will never admit to it. If they lived on an island then the temptation would be removed. Sounds like that is the kind thing to do to help them fight the demon.
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2004, 10:03:02 PM »

In addition, if that were true, they wouldn't be responsible for their actions.

They are not responsible for their actions. This is why they need to be removed from society.
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Jennifer
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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2004, 11:15:40 PM »

Pedophilia has always existed and it probably always will.  I don't think anyone is certain what "causes" pedophilia.  We do know that most pedophiles were sexually abused as children, however.  

We have to remember that rape of an adult or a child is always about power,  not sex.  These are people that for some reason, feel the need to exercise power over someone weaker.  

I also want to point out that these sensational cases give the misleading impression that strangers pose the most danger to children.  The person most likely to molest a child is someone in the home.  

Interestingly, I just became aware of studies (I don't have cites at the moment) showing that hetrosexual men are more likely to be sexual predators than homosexual men.  According to what I've read, men who sexually abused boys have no sexual interest in men.  And only a small percentage of sexual predators prey on boys alone.
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Anastasios
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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2004, 11:39:01 PM »

Tom,

We'll just have to agree to disagree.  I know two paedophiles who are now leading normal lives and are working to help other paedophiles overcome their affliction.  While we must always treat such persons with caution, Christianity teaches us that any sin can be overcome.

It is the modern psychiatric types that you just disparaged that teach that they aren't responsible for their actions.  However, they are responsible.

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« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2004, 02:11:40 AM »

In case no one here hasn't already plugged it, I highly recommend reading Steps to Transformation by Fr. Meletios Weber.  Excellent book.  I think it would be perfect for Tom.
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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2004, 08:01:15 AM »

Anastasios: I think that these "people" that you know will be the first to tell you that they are NOT cured. That they have these perverted passions with them always.

The question is and always will be: would you trust having a "recovered" pedophile around YOUR child? If not, then society has a responsibility to REMOVE them.

Christian charity is all well and good - up to a point. We must never forget that we are in constant battle with evil in this world.

Pedophilia is the most evil act in this world. It destroys an innocent because the child is not mature enough to understand why it is happening and how to combat its emotional affects.  A child is conditioned to believe that the way an adult acts or treats them is almost always tied to something that child did.

I have no use for these scum.

We have to remember that rape of an adult or a child is always about power,  not sex.  These are people that for some reason, feel the need to exercise power over someone weaker.  

That is true in the case of adult rape.But is a misconception about pedophilia. Rapists are usually also very angry and agressive people. Pedophiles are just plain, sick, evil and disgusting animals.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2004, 08:17:17 AM by Tom+ú » Logged
Jennifer
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« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2004, 06:24:41 PM »

No, Tom, it is generally agreed upon by the mental health community that sexual abuse of children is about power.  That's why most abusers of male children are not homosexual.  It's not about sex.  That's also why almost half of pedophiles abuse both girls and boys.  

And they may be "sick" but almost all of them were sexually molested themselves.  There's a direct correlation between being a victim of sexual abuse and being an abuser.  Since that's the case, it's hard to deny their 'personhood.'  They are people who have been terribly hurt.  Certainly they do evil things and deserve to be punished but they're not "animals."
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« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2004, 02:50:55 PM »

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Jennifer: Interestingly, I just became aware of studies (I don't have cites at the moment) showing that hetrosexual men are more likely to be sexual predators than homosexual men.  According to what I've read, men who sexually abused boys have no sexual interest in men.  And only a small percentage of sexual predators prey on boys alone.

I wonder who is responsible for such "studies."

A child molester cannot be legitimately called a "heterosexual" whether he abuses males or females.

I used to be a police officer and took part in an investigation that broke up a ring of homosexual "chicken hawks" who were doing a booming business in young adolescent boys out of a local gay bar.

Sodomites are not just "normal people" who happen to prefer members of the same sex. They are twisted and sick.

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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2004, 04:48:09 PM »

Tom,

Like I said, we should always keep such people under close scrutiny.

We shouldn't remove them from society if they have a track record of recovery.

In the 12 step programs, people claim that the disease is like alcoholism, that the deficiency is always with them. But that through 12 step programs they can be sober.  I struggle with this idea; as Christians believe that Christ can and does heal.  Either way, they shouldn't be cut off from soceity if they can show that they are in some type of 12 step program and are keeping away from kids.

Jennifer,

I don't know if I can accept what you are saying.  I am sure there are people out there who just want to have sex with kids, just like there are people that like to have sex with inanimate objects.  Is it about power? Probably, but that doesn't mean it isn't about sex.  Seems to me the modern scientific community is trying to separate causes of the behavior and force people into pre-cut categories.

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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2004, 05:01:07 PM »

All I know is that when ever I have kids and if something like this happens to one of them, I will kill the person that did it.....with out a doubt in my mind....I am willing to burn in hell to make sure no other child is ever touched in that manner again.


I know that statement is unchristian and I know that its wrong....but to me there is nothing worse then someone ruining the innocence of a child.

What I suggest is not some 12 step program......its proven that the majority do prey on children again....but rather castration and lifetime in jail.

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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2004, 10:51:16 PM »

Every human person is the revelation of God. Christ came to save all mankind. If you call pedophiles "monsters" and say they cannot be helped, you are a hypocrite and shouldn't call yourself a Christian. It's all good and well to go to church, but until you try to put unconditional love into action, you're just wasting your time with all this stuff.
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« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2004, 11:01:30 PM »

Every human person is the revelation of God. Christ came to save all mankind. If you call pedophiles "monsters" and say they cannot be helped, you are a hypocrite and shouldn't call yourself a Christian. It's all good and well to go to church, but until you try to put unconditional love into action, you're just wasting your time with all this stuff.

I am willing to help them. They just need to be an island away from the rest of us. Treat them like Monks; Monks of Satan.
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2004, 12:10:30 AM »

All I know is that when ever I have kids and if something like this happens to one of them, I will kill the person that did it.....with out a doubt in my mind....I am willing to burn in hell to make sure no other child is ever touched in that manner again.


I know that statement is unchristian and I know that its wrong....but to me there is nothing worse then someone ruining the innocence of a child.

What I suggest is not some 12 step program......its proven that the majority do prey on children again....but rather castration and lifetime in jail.



Most who strike again are not in 12 step programs.
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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2004, 09:27:23 AM »

I agree that we shouldn't judge and shouldn't write anyone off as monsters. I do think, though, that pedophiles and other dangerous offenders should be isolated and incarcerated for the good and safety of society. For how long depends on the treatability of each case.
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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2004, 10:21:14 AM »

Sodomites are not just "normal people" who happen to prefer members of the same sex. They are twisted and sick.

As are you and I, and everyone else on this forum.  That is not to suggest that all moral failings and sinful inclinations are morally equivalent, but I am not sure the inclination toward sodomy (excluding pedophilia, violent sexual abuse, etc.) is more "twisted and sick" than the inclination of some heterosexuals toward repeated acts of adultery, than the inclination toward neglecting one's children, etc.

Our Church's position on the sinfulness of homosexual behavior, and the disordered and unnatural character of homosexual inclinations, is a good one.  But, not if it spills over into hatred of the sinners along with the sin.  Homosexual people, like the rest of us, need the love and support, as well as firm direction and teaching, of their brothers and sisters in Christ, if they are to shoulder the heavy burden of overcoming their sinful inclinations.

By the way, Fr. Seraphim Rose was among the "twisted and sick" "sodomites" you mention.  But he turned from it (in his words: "I was in hell; I know what hell is"), and lived such a life of repentance that many Orthodox regard him as quite possibly a saint.

(The analogy with St. Mary of Egypt is obvious.)

To substantiate the above, see:  http://www.pomona.edu/Magazine/PCMSP01/saint.shtml
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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2004, 04:35:15 PM »

I'm not sure if it's just the times we live in, the conditioning of this particular culture, both, whatever...but I've come to the conclusion that "we" have a love-hate relationship with what I cann "excorcisable sins"; that is to say, those types of "sins" which are so outside of Joe Average's sphere of inclinations and failings, that we can take endless glee in condemning them and those who indulge in them.

This is why America (I'm speaking of her moral-religious conservatives here) both loves and hates it's homosexuals.  It hates them for their obvious failing - but loves them because it is one totally beyond the stone thrower's nest of failings.  Generally "being into guys" (or for women, being into other women... though this latter one seems to offend us all a whole lot less for whatever reason) is something people perceive as being an all or nothing proposition - hence, we feel safe attacking the queers, without implicating ourselves.

Thus, righteous, right-leaning America has a convienient pinnata...all the while ignoring systematic injustices towards the poor, the system of usury which underlies modern economics, the use and abuse of the third world to sustain our standard of living, endemic dishonesty in both public and private life, rampant divorce and infidelity (both consumated and that of the heart which is now almost universal), etc.

I've had not a few things to say about organized homosexualist activists, theorizing about the roots of homosexualism, etc.  I am fully aware that this is a sin, and a contra natural.  The way it is underlined however, the amount of print it gets, bothers me.  It, and other "uglier" sins (though I find lying pretty ugly myself) are convienient - nice scape goats for all of our problems, the alleged reason why our civilization is falling apart.  The truth is of course, these more sensationalistic offences are symptoms of far more basic, ongoing problems which are not so excorcisable - sins we are all guilty of.

Of course, the above thoughts take for granted that the categories involved ("straight", "gay", etc.) are real ones.   By in large, I think they're artificial, given the complexity of human behaviour...but I indulge them for the sake of discussion, since this is how people are nowdays (I believe, falsely) choosing to both identify themselves and those around them (and how they're framing the argument.)  The truth is that fallen man is a sewer, loaded with all sorts of dark fantasies and ugly thoughts, both acted upon or simply entertained - unfortunately, there's a lot of pretense regarding this...the really bad people somehow always end up being "out there."

Given the "right" circumstances, the eyes of our fellow being averted for a time, or enough social pressure...most of us would have a penchant to indulge in some diabolical crime....becoming the thief, the apostate, the philanderer, the adulterer among other sickly things.

Seraphim
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