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ialmisry
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« Reply #270 on: December 16, 2010, 01:58:37 PM »

For good measure, here's a list of some of Hitler's extremely atheistic quotes:

Plagerized from here:
http://issuepedia.org/Adolf_Hitler/religion

Quote
...Historian Paul Johnson wrote that Hitler hated Christianity with a passion, adding that shortly after assuming power in 1933, Hitler told Hermann Rauschnig that he intended "to stamp out Christianity root and branch."

As Hitler grew in power, he made other anti-Christian statements. For example, he was quoted in Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, by Allan Bullock, as saying: "I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews."...

I could probably find more speeches in which Hitler claims himself to be a Christian, but I think the point has been made. He said it. Now, what did it mean?

It seems Hitler, like many modern-day politicians, spoke out of both sides of his mouth. And when he didn't, his lackeys did. It may have been political pandering, just like many of our current politicians who invoke God's name to gain support.

Also, it seems probable that Hitler, being the great manipulator, knew that he couldn't fight the Christian churches and their members right off the bat. So he made statements to put the church at ease and may have patronized religion as a way to prevent having to fight the Christian-based church.

In fact, Anton Gil notes in his book, An Honourable Defeat: A History of German Resistance to Hitler, 1933-1945: "For his part, Hitler naturally wanted to bring the church into line with everything else in his scheme of things. He knew he dare not simply eradicate it: that would not have been possible with such an international organisation, and he would have lost many Christian supporters had he tried to. His principal aim was to unify the German Evangelical Church under a pro-Nazi banner, and to come to an accommodation with the Catholics."

In other words, while he was certainly evil, he also usually knew which wars he could win (at least until 1941) and only fought those. He knew he could beat the Polish, French, and British armies and he allegedly counseled the Japanese against attacking the U.S.; he also requested that they open up a front against Russia. He couldn't beat the church in open warfare--so he took control and then attacked them piecemeal while making statements to put them at ease. Think about it--how many other times did Hitler break his word or ignore a treaty? He said whatever would make things easiest, and then ignored it later.

Author Doug Krueger notes that "so many Germans were religious believers that Hitler, if not religious himself, at least had to pretend to be a believer in order to gain support." He adds, "If the [Christian] message won converts, it would seem that most Nazis were probably [Christians] too. After all, would appeal to divine mandate win more theists or atheists to the cause?" He also points out that "Even if Hitler was not a [Christian], he could still have been a theist. Or a deist" (www.infidels.org/library /modern/doug_krueger/copin.html).   Remember that being a non-Christian is not equal to being an atheist.....

An interesting side note: Two of my sources, both of whom are well-versed in WWII history, said something to the effect that Hitler acted as if he had a messianic complex and perhaps believed himself to essentially be a god or the messiah. As one put it, you could certainly make the argument that he was a firm believer in God, if by "God" you mean "Adolf Hitler."....
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1699/was-hitler-a-christian
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« Reply #271 on: December 16, 2010, 02:55:30 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
unfulfilled with the Jews

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Judaism quite different today than it was during Jesus' time? If I'm not mistaken, the only remaiing Jewish group that remained were the Pharisees.

I know this got lost in the debate, but anyone want to say anything to this?

Its very true. I still have no idea how the Jews are justifying not offering the mandated sacrifices.


Judaism is above all else, a strictly legalistic religion.  The mandates, religious ordinances, prescribed liturgical services, appointed prayers, laws, taboos, dietary restrictions, dress code, social structure, behavioral guidelines, etc etc are all STRICTLY obligatory, but also must be in strict accordance with the rule of Law.  So it is not legal to follow the Law in an illegal way. The Law, while requiring animal sacrifices specified by calendar and atonement requirements, also strictly requires that these sacrifices take place at Jerusalem, at the High Altar of the Temple.  The Law was very clear, as were the rabbinical commentaries which elucidate and clarify it (similar to our Patristic Writings) to explain that without a Temple, there can be no sacrifices.  The interesting point is what is stopping Jews currently from performing sacrifices somewhere in Jerusalem in the vicinity of the Temple Mount complex, as they are in legal control of the city now.  For the previous two-thousand years, the Jews did not necessarily have regular or legal access to Jerusalem, and much like during the Babylonian captivity which inspired Judaic reforms which gave us the specific Bible in an attempt to redefine Judaism around the Scriptures and sociocultural/religious traditions instead of the sacred geography of the Holy Land, Judaism became a religion organized around ideas, events, readings and the Synagogue, where as previously it had been deeply attached to specific geography.

Essentially, until a new altar is consecrated in Jerusalem, it is unlawful for Jews even to perform legally prescribed animal sacrifices, I am not quite sure how Judaism explains theologically the new concepts of atonement and forgiveness, and how Judaism survives as a religion of salvation, as initially the animal sacrifices were the sole source of atonement for sin and finding Grace with God.



Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately. How do you know that you are not in a Matrix of sorts?? How do you know that reality is not an illusion etc?? Your perceptions rely on the ability of your brain to accurately interpret sensory inputs in order to derive conclusions. As someone who is a veteran of three major brain surgeries, I can assure you that relying on the brain to be accurate about much of anything is a rather tenuous proposition at best. Just because a blind man lacks sight, doesn't mean we all do.


^ amen amen

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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ialmisry
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« Reply #272 on: December 16, 2010, 02:57:58 PM »

For good measure, here's a list of some of Hitler's extremely atheistic quotes:

Plagerized from here:
http://issuepedia.org/Adolf_Hitler/religion
http://www.doxa.ws/social/Hitler.html
Quote
Hitler said some Christian sounding things in his campaign speeches, of course he did. He would have been a fool to say "I am evil and i want to destroy society and launch us into a two front war we can't win, vote for me." Atheists naively assume we can trust his campaign speeches just as we would a personal diary, but most of us know you can't trust anything a politician says in a camping! In the 1930's voters in major Western countries expected Christian candidates even more than they do now.

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
http://www.answers.org/history/hitquote.html
Quote
Hitler's Lies in action

From Webstie Adolf Hitler, Christian, Atheist, or Neither?

"As an example of Hitler's honesty, consider the following from a letter by Hitler to the French fascist Hervé and published in the Nazi Völkischer Beobachter on October 26, 1930 (Heiden, Der Fuehrer, p. 414)" :
"I think I can assure you that there is no one in Germany who will not with all his heart approve any honest attempt at an improvement of relations between Germany and France. My own feelings force me to take the same attitude... The German people has the solemn intention of living in peace and friendship with all civilized nations and powers... And I regard the maintenance of peace in Europe as especially desirable and at the same time secured, if France and Germany, on the basis of equal sharing of natural human rights, arrive at a real inner understanding... The young Germany, that is led by me and that finds its expression in the National Socialist Movement, has only the most heartfelt desire for an understanding with other European nations."



Obviously he was lying, here's an even bigger lie.

Ibid


In a similar vein, consider this, from a speech in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1939: "Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration: 1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views, nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted..."


No one is going to persecuted for his/her religious views in Germany? Its' well documented that Hitler persecuted any many groups for their religious views, including Protestants, and Catholics(more on that latter)

Hitler youth song:
Quote
No evil priest can prevent us from feeling that we are the children of Hitler / We follow not Christ but Horst Wessel / Away with incense and holy water / The Church can go hang for all we care
Horst Wessel was an early Nazi party Sturmabteilung street-fighter murdered by communists and turned into a martyr by propaganda chief Josef Goebbels. He had written the song "Die Fahne hoch" the national anthem with "Deutchsland uber Alles" during the Nazi regime. His group, the stormtroopers, also had a lovely song which said "Stormtrooper comrades hang the Jew and put the priest against the wall."
"Among Stormtroopers...anti-Catholicism was so pervassive that it seemed at times to have been almost as fervid as anti-Semiticism...once the war began, the party bannned radio transmission of religious broadcasts, seized church bells for scrap, and, pleading shortage of newsprint, shut down the Catholic press."
The Last Jews in Berlin By Leonard Gross
http://books.google.com/books?id=MeTRXbveYHMC&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=We+follow+not+Christ,+but+Horst+Wessel,+Away+with+incense+and+Holy+Water,+The+Church+can+go+hang&source=bl&ots=YK0QYbbPAM&sig=S70trIp9kNDa3rhDKGdVyzTQa6c&hl=en&ei=El4KTYuZE9mxnAf05tD5Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=We%20follow%20not%20Christ%2C%20but%20Horst%20Wessel%2C%20Away%20with%20incense%20and%20Holy%20Water%2C%20The%20Church%20can%20go%20hang&f=false
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #273 on: December 16, 2010, 03:24:14 PM »

Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately.
The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason. Your logic circular. Reason is inescapable when it comes to justifying ideas and concepts. Once you convince me to abandon reason I'll have no reason to believe that's reasonable anymore.
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« Reply #274 on: December 16, 2010, 03:27:42 PM »

For good measure, here's a list of some of Hitler's extremely atheistic quotes:

Plagerized from here:
http://issuepedia.org/Adolf_Hitler/religion
http://www.doxa.ws/social/Hitler.html
Quote
Hitler said some Christian sounding things in his campaign speeches, of course he did. He would have been a fool to say "I am evil and i want to destroy society and launch us into a two front war we can't win, vote for me." Atheists naively assume we can trust his campaign speeches just as we would a personal diary, but most of us know you can't trust anything a politician says in a camping! In the 1930's voters in major Western countries expected Christian candidates even more than they do now.

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
http://www.answers.org/history/hitquote.html
Quote
Hitler's Lies in action

From Webstie Adolf Hitler, Christian, Atheist, or Neither?

"As an example of Hitler's honesty, consider the following from a letter by Hitler to the French fascist Hervé and published in the Nazi Völkischer Beobachter on October 26, 1930 (Heiden, Der Fuehrer, p. 414)" :
"I think I can assure you that there is no one in Germany who will not with all his heart approve any honest attempt at an improvement of relations between Germany and France. My own feelings force me to take the same attitude... The German people has the solemn intention of living in peace and friendship with all civilized nations and powers... And I regard the maintenance of peace in Europe as especially desirable and at the same time secured, if France and Germany, on the basis of equal sharing of natural human rights, arrive at a real inner understanding... The young Germany, that is led by me and that finds its expression in the National Socialist Movement, has only the most heartfelt desire for an understanding with other European nations."



Obviously he was lying, here's an even bigger lie.

Ibid


In a similar vein, consider this, from a speech in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1939: "Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration: 1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views, nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted..."


No one is going to persecuted for his/her religious views in Germany? Its' well documented that Hitler persecuted any many groups for their religious views, including Protestants, and Catholics(more on that latter)

Hitler youth song:
Quote
No evil priest can prevent us from feeling that we are the children of Hitler / We follow not Christ but Horst Wessel / Away with incense and holy water / The Church can go hang for all we care
Horst Wessel was an early Nazi party Sturmabteilung street-fighter murdered by communists and turned into a martyr by propaganda chief Josef Goebbels. He had written the song "Die Fahne hoch" the national anthem with "Deutchsland uber Alles" during the Nazi regime. His group, the stormtroopers, also had a lovely song which said "Stormtrooper comrades hang the Jew and put the priest against the wall."
"Among Stormtroopers...anti-Catholicism was so pervassive that it seemed at times to have been almost as fervid as anti-Semiticism...once the war began, the party bannned radio transmission of religious broadcasts, seized church bells for scrap, and, pleading shortage of newsprint, shut down the Catholic press."
The Last Jews in Berlin By Leonard Gross
http://books.google.com/books?id=MeTRXbveYHMC&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=We+follow+not+Christ,+but+Horst+Wessel,+Away+with+incense+and+Holy+Water,+The+Church+can+go+hang&source=bl&ots=YK0QYbbPAM&sig=S70trIp9kNDa3rhDKGdVyzTQa6c&hl=en&ei=El4KTYuZE9mxnAf05tD5Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=We%20follow%20not%20Christ%2C%20but%20Horst%20Wessel%2C%20Away%20with%20incense%20and%20Holy%20Water%2C%20The%20Church%20can%20go%20hang&f=false

Yeah, but! He also said Churchy things, so we don't know what to believe! Best to ignore his actions and only use those portions that fit our agenda...
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ialmisry
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« Reply #275 on: December 16, 2010, 03:33:49 PM »

Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately.
The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason. Your logic circular. Reason is inescapable when it comes to justifying ideas and concepts. Once you convince me to abandon reason I'll have no reason to believe that's reasonable anymore.
No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.
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« Reply #276 on: December 16, 2010, 03:43:22 PM »

I'll get to your Hitler pieces in a bit while I dig up some more findings.

Furthermore you claim that agnosticsm is the natural religion of man correct, I mean that is what I am getting from Orthodoxy that there are things we cannot know about God. Mortals cannot fully understand immortals, but the head honcho immortal has opened his rain coat a few times to some people, therefore one should believe in dancing waffles and also that man has a built in religion of agnosticism. You shouldn't try to understand why it is so because of how incomprehensible muffins are to us mere skin bags, just accept it as well as the concept behind not being able to understand ice cream shoes baking in the oven, but it is what it is. Obviously.
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« Reply #277 on: December 16, 2010, 03:47:49 PM »

I'll get to your Hitler pieces in a bit while I dig up some more findings.

Furthermore you claim that agnosticsm is the natural religion of man correct, I mean that is what I am getting from Orthodoxy that there are things we cannot know about God. Mortals cannot fully understand immortals, but the head honcho immortal has opened his rain coat a few times to some people, therefore one should believe in dancing waffles and also that man has a built in religion of agnosticism. You shouldn't try to understand why it is so because of how incomprehensible muffins are to us mere skin bags, just accept it as well as the concept behind not being able to understand ice cream shoes baking in the oven, but it is what it is. Obviously.
'

I think I need to drink before I can understand that.
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« Reply #278 on: December 16, 2010, 03:52:56 PM »

I'll get to your Hitler pieces in a bit while I dig up some more findings. utilize the search function on www.infidels.org
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« Reply #279 on: December 16, 2010, 04:05:56 PM »

I'll get to your Hitler pieces in a bit while I dig up some more findings.

Furthermore you claim that agnosticsm is the natural religion of man correct, I mean that is what I am getting from Orthodoxy that there are things we cannot know about God. Mortals cannot fully understand immortals, but the head honcho immortal has opened his rain coat a few times to some people, therefore one should believe in dancing waffles and also that man has a built in religion of agnosticism. You shouldn't try to understand why it is so because of how incomprehensible muffins are to us mere skin bags, just accept it as well as the concept behind not being able to understand ice cream shoes baking in the oven, but it is what it is. Obviously.
Can you restate that, with coherence?
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #280 on: December 16, 2010, 04:09:17 PM »

TryingtoConvert,

Why are you here?
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« Reply #281 on: December 16, 2010, 04:12:04 PM »

Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately.
The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason. Your logic circular. Reason is inescapable when it comes to justifying ideas and concepts. Once you convince me to abandon reason I'll have no reason to believe that's reasonable anymore.
No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.
I'd say this right here is abandoning reason: "Even if this is the case, and I don't concede that it is, I would still choose to believe in God. Belief in God provides that flicker of hope in this dark dark world. And what else matters in the end, if not hope??"
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« Reply #282 on: December 16, 2010, 04:13:12 PM »

I'll get to your Hitler pieces in a bit while I dig up some more findings.

Furthermore you claim that agnosticsm is the natural religion of man correct, I mean that is what I am getting from Orthodoxy that there are things we cannot know about God. Mortals cannot fully understand immortals, but the head honcho immortal has opened his rain coat a few times to some people, therefore one should believe in dancing waffles and also that man has a built in religion of agnosticism. You shouldn't try to understand why it is so because of how incomprehensible muffins are to us mere skin bags, just accept it as well as the concept behind not being able to understand ice cream shoes baking in the oven, but it is what it is. Obviously.
Can you restate that, with coherence?
Yes I can, can you make your statement coherent (regarding orthodoxy as a basis for agnosticsm?)?
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« Reply #283 on: December 16, 2010, 04:36:40 PM »

I'll get to your Hitler pieces in a bit while I dig up some more findings.

Furthermore you claim that agnosticsm is the natural religion of man correct, I mean that is what I am getting from Orthodoxy that there are things we cannot know about God. Mortals cannot fully understand immortals, but the head honcho immortal has opened his rain coat a few times to some people, therefore one should believe in dancing waffles and also that man has a built in religion of agnosticism. You shouldn't try to understand why it is so because of how incomprehensible muffins are to us mere skin bags, just accept it as well as the concept behind not being able to understand ice cream shoes baking in the oven, but it is what it is. Obviously.
Can you restate that, with coherence?
Yes I can, can you make your statement coherent (regarding oOrthodoxy as a basis for agnosticsm?)?
I didn't state that Orthodoxy is a basis for agnosticism.
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« Reply #284 on: December 16, 2010, 04:43:04 PM »

However you do say that agnosticsm is the natural religion of man if I'm not mistaken.
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« Reply #285 on: December 16, 2010, 04:50:54 PM »

However you do say that agnosticsm is the natural religion of man if I'm not mistaken.
Yes. And you are still mistaken.
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« Reply #286 on: December 16, 2010, 05:06:45 PM »

However you do say that agnosticsm is the natural religion of man if I'm not mistaken.
Yes. And you are still mistaken.

Then what?
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« Reply #287 on: December 16, 2010, 05:12:46 PM »

However you do say that agnosticsm is the natural religion of man if I'm not mistaken.
Yes. And you are still mistaken.

Then what?
Then what, what?
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« Reply #288 on: December 16, 2010, 05:26:12 PM »

and then...

No, "and then".

and THENNNN

No, "And THEN".


AND THENNN!!!!!

NO, AND THEN!


AND THEN, AND THEN, AND THEN!
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« Reply #289 on: December 16, 2010, 05:30:45 PM »

And then...

Then what

No, then watt

No, then wad

No, then wood

No, then would

No, then could

No, then cot

No, then what.
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« Reply #290 on: December 16, 2010, 09:37:22 PM »

Come on guys three kings following a star across the desert to bring presents to a god-man baby (who was immaculately concepted and had no father) whom they dreamed about is all about reason.

Really now.
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« Reply #291 on: December 16, 2010, 09:46:21 PM »

Come on guys three kings following a star across the desert to bring presents to a god-man baby (who was immaculately concepted and had no father) whom they dreamed about is all about reason.

Really now.
Mary was immaculately conceived (according to Catholics). Jesus was born of a virgin.

"Three Kings" is a movie title, not a biblical description.
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« Reply #292 on: December 16, 2010, 09:47:31 PM »

Ugh. Just to put you out of your misery, let me just tell you what Ialmisry was communicating; that Hitler's actions were so antithetical to Christianity that he could have possibly simply mouthed the right words for political expedience.

Translation: Adolph Hitler lied.

The SS were deeply involved in Occult Rituals. They were hardly Christians.

Hitler was a Vegetarian though....Which I have always considered as very very funny.

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« Reply #293 on: December 16, 2010, 10:04:08 PM »

Come on guys three kings following a star across the desert to bring presents to a god-man baby (who was immaculately concepted and had no father) whom they dreamed about is all about reason.

Really now.
Three Zoroastrian priests, clergy of a religion that had no links to the OT, but which did predict the birth of a savior in a cave, and who did place great store by studying the stars.
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« Reply #294 on: December 16, 2010, 10:22:38 PM »

Come on guys three kings following a star across the desert to bring presents to a god-man baby (who was immaculately concepted and had no father) whom they dreamed about is all about reason.

Really now.
Three Zoroastrian priests, clergy of a religion that had no links to the OT, but which did predict the birth of a savior in a cave, and who did place great store by studying the stars.

Well, we don't know if it was three of them, but certainly three gifts were given on account of Christ's kingship, priesthood, and suffering.
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« Reply #295 on: December 16, 2010, 11:23:13 PM »

Come on guys three kings following a star across the desert to bring presents to a god-man baby (who was immaculately concepted and had no father) whom they dreamed about is all about reason.

Really now.
Three Zoroastrian priests, clergy of a religion that had no links to the OT, but which did predict the birth of a savior in a cave, and who did place great store by studying the stars.

Well, we don't know if it was three of them, but certainly three gifts were given on account of Christ's kingship, priesthood, and suffering.
And Zoroastrianism does have links to the OT.
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« Reply #296 on: December 16, 2010, 11:29:28 PM »

If you all don't know much about God but instead of what has been revealed that is being agnostic no?
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« Reply #297 on: December 16, 2010, 11:39:33 PM »

Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately.
The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason. Your logic circular. Reason is inescapable when it comes to justifying ideas and concepts. Once you convince me to abandon reason I'll have no reason to believe that's reasonable anymore.
No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.
I'd say this right here is abandoning reason: "Even if this is the case, and I don't concede that it is, I would still choose to believe in God. Belief in God provides that flicker of hope in this dark dark world. And what else matters in the end, if not hope??"

You seem to have painted yourself into a corner here. Faith in the Orthodox Church is participatory...it requires my agreement, my cooperation, and my actions. Reason does not require any such thing. In your world, what happens will happen regardless of my belief. The ultimate conclusion is that we are all dead. So if I choose faith AND reason, even where faith seemingly lacks evidence in your eyes, this has no bearing on what happens in the end. No harm is done by me embracing faith. In a world which lacks a supreme moral arbiter, on no grounds can you declare what is right or wrong to any degree of certainty, including even faith. So why not just let us be??

If you all don't know much about God but instead of what has been revealed that is being agnostic no?

I am not concerned about the verb "to know" but rather the verb "to believe."
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« Reply #298 on: December 17, 2010, 04:56:42 AM »

Going back to an earlier discussion...
With the little I've read from you, I must say personally, this is one of your best posts, and I'd like to see more of that quality and honesty in you rather than your other posts that seem to look down on our beliefs in a slightly insulting manner.

I have to say, it is your beliefs of life with consciousness that makes me see a purpose too.  Only this time, I don't see the purpose without God.

If life was to grow and evolve, and we were to grow smarter and more advanced, by the time we reach a certain level of advancement, we find that the more we evolve the more disease and obstacles in life evolve with us.  We find that in the end, the universe as we know it will end and all evolution and all purpose we struggle for doesn't even matter.  We are forced with one goal, that is simply to survive.  But why try to survive now when it will all end later, not just your life, but even the life of your progeny?

Your rejection of belief in God is a valid rejection.  Your rejection is based on the actions of people.  People around us are quite condemning.  People do not know how to separate between the condemnation of a particular sin and the sinner himself.  People have lost sight with the idea of how to become gods in this world, and instead have become accusers, wishing upon people hell, pronouncing upon people that "God hates you."

But who said Christianity was easy.  It's indeed a "narrow gate."  Even within Christianity, it's a narrow gate.  Thank God for a merciful God, knowing the weaknesses of people, and always willing to help those who seek it.
If this life isn't enough for you, I'm not sure what to tell you. To me it's like having a plate of food in front of you the size of the moon. Saying that you need dessert (heaven, an afterlife, etc.) to give it all meaning, seems to me...absurd.

As finite beings we can choose to remain silent for our few moments on the stage of life, or we can sing our hearts out. Personally, whatever the end of the play may be, I'd rather yell as loud as I can for as long as I can. Even if we all face oblivion, rather than stay dark and inert, I'd rather burn furiously and brightly in the time I have, so much so that I light up the night sky long after I'm gone. This is the choice that has been made by living and even "non-living" things since the beginning of time. So, who the hell am I to say this life is not enough?

Also, my rejection of "God" is not based on the actions of people, but on my growing knowledge of the world. As I learned more, the more I could put my own beliefs into perspective and the more I began to see them as stories created by man to explain his situation. I know you don't agree with that conclusion, but that is the ultimate conclusion I continue to see more evidence of on an almost daily basis.
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« Reply #299 on: December 17, 2010, 05:16:49 AM »

Okay, let me give you a different perspective.  Faith is what you put your trust is, the lens by which you see the...and don't depend on the hypocrisies of Christians, but look at Christ Himself as the greatest example.

God bless.
Cut that down to save room.

Well, the main thing I think I need to reply to here is that I don't reject faith only "based on the people not practicing what they preach". The fact that I see people not practicing their religion...religiously, to me just reinforces the idea that religion, belief in god, faith, or whatever you want to call it, is meaningless. People will live however they want regardless. The main reason I've come to "reject faith" is because I've come to see "faith" as belief in stories created by man. Based on the knowledge I have and the more knowledge I gain, the more I see that those stories, however entangled with actual events they may be, are not real.

From what I can say of selfishness versus selflessness is that either one can lead people astray. While we tend to think of selflessness as always being noble, it sometimes becomes a detrimental quality. If a person doesn't take care of themselves, they will be powerless to help others. If they only look after themselves, then the community around them will suffer. So, as with all things people need to develop a proper sense of balance to maximize our ability to flourish and deal with adversity.
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« Reply #300 on: December 17, 2010, 06:09:26 AM »

The main reason I've come to "reject faith" is because I've come to see "faith" as belief in stories created by man.
I for one wouldn't categorize Christian Orthodoxy as merely (or even primarily) being about belief in stories.  But this makes me reiterate my oft-repeated, and as of yet unanswered, question.  To what exactly are you trying to convert, and why?
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« Reply #301 on: December 17, 2010, 06:11:14 AM »

Actually, according to Islamic law, he is.
Are you a Churcher?

I'm sure you won't mind providing a source for this assertion. If you're basing it on Edward Luttwak's New York Times column (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/opinion/12luttwak.html?_r=2&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin ), I suggest you find yourself a better reference. Luttwak's unfounded and apparently ignorant assertion that Obama is Muslim according to Islamic law was thoroughly debunked by Ali Eterez in an article for The Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-eteraz/obama-islam-smear-changes_b_101337.html ). The whole article is well worth a read, but I'll quote one particularly telling section:

Quote
Luttwack and the other fake experts promoting this new smear do not understand Islam. Religion is not hereditary as it is in Judaism. Islam is not a race. Just because a child has a Muslim father -- which, again, Obama didn't -- doesn't mean anything unless the child is being raised as a Muslim. At the time of birth, Muslims engage in a symbolic act -- of saying the Call to Prayer in the child's ear -- that renders a child Muslim. If Obama's father was agnostic/atheist, then he wouldn't have done such a thing.

No call to prayer in the ear, not raised as a Muslim, born to an atheist father, and then abandoned to a Christian mother both by father and his family, equals not Muslim. Obama is right to say he had no religion until he became a Christian.

Quote
..Historian Paul Johnson wrote that Hitler hated Christianity with a passion
A Roman Catholic arguing that Hitler wasn't a Roman Catholic? Didn't see that coming.

Quote
I could probably find more speeches in which Hitler claims himself to be a Christian, but I think the point has been made. He said it. Now, what did it mean?

It means he actually said it, for starters, instead of relying on hearsay and translators. You're also quote mining the Table Talks because Hitler also said:
Quote
We don't want to educate anyone in atheism. Table-Talk [p. 6]

An uneducated man, on the other hand, runs the risk of going over to atheism (which is a return to the state of the animal)... Table-Talk [p. 59]


Luther had the merit of rising against the Pope and the organisation of the Church. It was the first of the great revolutions. And thanks to his translation of the Bible, Luther replaced our dialects by the great German language! -Table-Talk [p. 9]

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism the destroyer. Nevertheless, the Galilean, who later was called Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who too up His position against Jewry. Galilee was a colony where the Romans had probably installed Gallic legionaries, and it's certain that Jesus was not a Jew. The Jews, by the way, regarded Him as the son of a whore-- of a whore and a Roman soldier.

The decisive falsification of Jesus's doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work with subtlety and for purposes of personal exploitation. For the Galiean's object was to liberate His country from Jewish oppression. He set Himself against Jewish capitalism, and that's why the Jews liquidated Him.
-Hitler [Table-Talk, p. 76]
Christ was an Aryan, and St. Paul used his doctrine to mobilise the criminal underworld and thus organise a proto-Bolsevism.
-Hitler [Table-Talk, p. 143]
Obviously the Table Talks are no silver bullet in his faith since this is included in them. Whatever he was at this point in his life he certainly wasn't an atheist (see first two lines in bold) which is what you asserted he was.
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« Reply #302 on: December 17, 2010, 06:13:41 AM »

Why does it seem that ialsmiry is a troll in sheep's clothing since he started conversing with me. I'm glad he's finally showing his true colors to everyone now. It's been nothing but sarcasm, insults and zero constructive input from this guy.
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« Reply #303 on: December 17, 2010, 07:41:32 AM »

Atheism is immoral by definition. Ingratitude is a deep character flaw and a deadly sin. We cannot prove with their atheistic logic that God exists. Their logic says that:
a) laws exist in everything ( in the macroscopic and microscopic world) but no one made these laws; they are from themselves.
b) these laws have no purpose: man comes and goes forward until death and he is finished

For the Darwinist, if true to the Darwinian creation narrative that chaos/randomness (no preexisting logic) was the state of the beginning of the universe, has to conclude that the laws that govern the operations of matter actually arose from the matter itself. Marx thought that ideas (and thus meaning) have no independent existence at all; ideas are just a function of the neurological processes of the brain.

Extract God from your thinking, and the Logos — the comprehensive logic that interpenetrates all of the creation — disappears from view. It’s really a descent back into superstition; an incredulity about the elemental forces with no comprehension that they can be comprehended. For the atheist however, the incredulity is willful while for the ignorant it is merely naive.
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« Reply #304 on: December 17, 2010, 11:53:19 AM »

Atheism is immoral by definition. Ingratitude is a deep character flaw and a deadly sin. We cannot prove with their atheistic logic that God exists. Their logic says that:
a) laws exist in everything ( in the macroscopic and microscopic world) but no one made these laws; they are from themselves.
b) these laws have no purpose: man comes and goes forward until death and he is finished

For the Darwinist, if true to the Darwinian creation narrative that chaos/randomness (no preexisting logic) was the state of the beginning of the universe, has to conclude that the laws that govern the operations of matter actually arose from the matter itself. Marx thought that ideas (and thus meaning) have no independent existence at all; ideas are just a function of the neurological processes of the brain.

Extract God from your thinking, and the Logos — the comprehensive logic that interpenetrates all of the creation — disappears from view. It’s really a descent back into superstition; an incredulity about the elemental forces with no comprehension that they can be comprehended. For the atheist however, the incredulity is willful while for the ignorant it is merely naive.
The actual laws that hold the universe together don't come into conflict with a belief or disbelief in a deity. I don't know why people automatically assume that the data leads to atheism. Until man can create from nil himself. Observable science can also be explaining a creative act.
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« Reply #305 on: December 17, 2010, 12:12:25 PM »

Also, my rejection of "God" is not based on the actions of people, but on my growing knowledge of the world. As I learned more, the more I could put my own beliefs into perspective and the more I began to see them as stories created by man to explain his situation. I know you don't agree with that conclusion, but that is the ultimate conclusion I continue to see more evidence of on an almost daily basis.

If that's why you're an atheist, then fine.  Somehow, I don't see it that way.  These words say you're an atheist because "you learned more," but your life seems to indicate another reason:

On a separate note, I've only become a "strident atheist" (although I don't care for the label), over the course of this past year. As I've mentioned before, for a long time I've been very ambivalent towards religion, even after I stopped being a believer myself (I'll still go to church with my mother occasionally). It's just this stuff like bans on gay marriage, bans on gay soldiers in the military and this situation for example with fundamentalists trying to screw with textbooks in Texas that has made me more belligerent towards religion. I could write off a lot of violence and discrimination in the world caused by religion as being the product of primitive extremists, but more and more I see discrimination and other forms of "violence" being propagated in our own society by people who also claim to be motivated by their religion. And when people say outright that my own way of seeing the world is based on ignorance, well, I just have a hard time letting things slide by unchallenged.

I'm not against gay marriage, or gay soldiers in the military.  I am against it in a spiritual and moral manner, but I don't believe I should impose my morals on others, neither should I shun these people.  You know my views on the textbooks, if I think I know what you're talking about.  Certainly I abhor violence.  But no, you base your disbelief off your own personal experience of people calling themselves religious.

I've met many honest atheists who said if it wasn't for their church's rejection of science, they'd probably still be believers.  But once it's because they see the hypocrisy going on around them by religious people, they leave, and then when they leave, they learn more only to solidify their epistemology, so to speak.

Likewise, many who see the validity of Christianity embrace it, and then learn more only to solidify their faith.

Quote
Well, the main thing I think I need to reply to here is that I don't reject faith only "based on the people not practicing what they preach". The fact that I see people not practicing their religion...religiously, to me just reinforces the idea that religion, belief in god, faith, or whatever you want to call it, is meaningless. People will live however they want regardless. The main reason I've come to "reject faith" is because I've come to see "faith" as belief in stories created by man. Based on the knowledge I have and the more knowledge I gain, the more I see that those stories, however entangled with actual events they may be, are not real.

From what I can say of selfishness versus selflessness is that either one can lead people astray. While we tend to think of selflessness as always being noble, it sometimes becomes a detrimental quality. If a person doesn't take care of themselves, they will be powerless to help others. If they only look after themselves, then the community around them will suffer. So, as with all things people need to develop a proper sense of balance to maximize our ability to flourish and deal with adversity.

Well, stories can be hard to believe.  But when I look at the Old Testament and the prophecies, and the stories it gives, which are sometimes prophetical, I don't have to believe these particular stories, but in fact, they affirm the story of Christ.  Why specifically the story of Christ holds more weight?  First because I believe he actually came and existed, and that he turned the world upside down through his followers who with sincerity and without aggression simply died for Him and His "story."  This particular story of Christ I admire.

Hindus are generally peaceful people, and the more educated of them seems not necessarily believing literally in the stories.  Muslims forced their stories by the sword.  Jews merely have stories with no purpose at the moment.

Because we expect adversity in this world, people want to make it as if they need to be selfish a little.  Certainly there's nothing wrong with protecting yourself.  But I don't agree with the balance.  The weight should tip more in the favor of selflessness.  "Love your enemies, go good to those who hate, bless those who curse.  If one strikes you in one cheek, offer the other.  If one asks you to go one mile, go two with him."  These sayings are derided by people as weaknesses.  But which is easier, to hate your enemy or love your enemy?  I think loving your enemy shows you're stronger, not weaker or vulnerable.  If Christ, MLK, and Gandhi can do it, even though they suffered, but brought success to their own campaigns, then anyone can.  Christ who brought forth unto us a way of life, which is Himself, helped those who are helpless, and while rebuking those who are self-righteous, continued to forgive and love them as well even on the Cross.  A story like that moves me to become like Him.  No greater story is there than the story of Christ, and this story people lived for and died for, with no aggression for those first couple of centuries, and through their deaths, they've grown.  In Christ, we are truly free.

Yes, there will be suffering.  But history shows the cries of suffering are much louder than the grunts of aggression.

But of course, this not easy for anyone.  But at the very least, what should be easier is helping the helpless.  Forget the love your enemies part.  That's too hard for most people, even Christians, sadly enough.  But at the very least, selflessness usually is very hard for those who reached an intellectual peak.  Only when you renounce your own selfish desires to help others will your eyes start to open up towards Christianity.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 12:18:28 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #306 on: December 17, 2010, 01:01:39 PM »

Why does it seem that ialsmiry is a troll in sheep's clothing since he started conversing with me. I'm glad he's finally showing his true colors to everyone now. It's been nothing but sarcasm, insults and zero constructive input from this guy.
Odd.  I thought that summed up you. 
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« Reply #307 on: December 17, 2010, 01:14:24 PM »

Why does it seem that ialsmiry is a troll in sheep's clothing since he started conversing with me. I'm glad he's finally showing his true colors to everyone now. It's been nothing but sarcasm, insults and zero constructive input from this guy.
Odd.  I thought that summed up you. 



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« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 01:17:14 PM by Azurestone » Logged


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« Reply #308 on: December 17, 2010, 01:15:44 PM »

Come on guys three kings following a star across the desert to bring presents to a god-man baby (who was immaculately concepted and had no father) whom they dreamed about is all about reason.

Really now.
Three Zoroastrian priests, clergy of a religion that had no links to the OT, but which did predict the birth of a savior in a cave, and who did place great store by studying the stars.

Well, we don't know if it was three of them, but certainly three gifts were given on account of Christ's kingship, priesthood, and suffering.
And Zoroastrianism does have links to the OT.
Actually, no, it does not. I think I know what you are alluding to, but I'll let you make you case.

(I'd open another thread, but since the afterlife is supposedly one of these developments, I'll leave it here).
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« Reply #309 on: December 17, 2010, 01:19:41 PM »

If you all don't know much about God but instead of what has been revealed that is being agnostic no?
Are you trying to ask "If you all don't know much about God except what has been revealed, isn't that being agnostic?"
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« Reply #310 on: December 17, 2010, 01:47:42 PM »

Come on guys three kings following a star across the desert to bring presents to a god-man baby (who was immaculately concepted and had no father) whom they dreamed about is all about reason.

Really now.
Three Zoroastrian priests, clergy of a religion that had no links to the OT, but which did predict the birth of a savior in a cave, and who did place great store by studying the stars.

Well, we don't know if it was three of them, but certainly three gifts were given on account of Christ's kingship, priesthood, and suffering.
And Zoroastrianism does have links to the OT.
Actually, no, it does not. I think I know what you are alluding to, but I'll let you make you case.

(I'd open another thread, but since the afterlife is supposedly one of these developments, I'll leave it here).
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« Reply #311 on: December 17, 2010, 01:48:27 PM »

I think it's pretty humorous that this fella came here wanting to boost his ego by attacking what he thought would be an easy target, all the while under the guise of "trying" to understand us.  The funny thing is is that instead of finding an easy target, Isa, along with others, turned the tables around and showed just how childish and boorish TtC is.  It's also pretty funny how angry TtC became and began accusing others of the very thing he's been all along.  My, my, my.   Cheesy
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« Reply #312 on: December 17, 2010, 02:01:02 PM »

Why does it seem that ialsmiry is a troll in sheep's clothing since he started conversing with me. I'm glad he's finally showing his true colors to everyone now. It's been nothing but sarcasm, insults and zero constructive input from this guy.

You seem to have confused him with someone else.
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« Reply #313 on: December 17, 2010, 03:37:23 PM »

Why does it seem that ialsmiry is a troll in sheep's clothing...
You seem to have confused him with someone else.
Coulda been the sheep's clothing.  Lotsa folks are wearing wool these days.
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« Reply #314 on: December 17, 2010, 04:07:37 PM »

Why does it seem that ialsmiry is a troll in sheep's clothing...
You seem to have confused him with someone else.
Coulda been the sheep's clothing.  Lotsa folks are wearing wool these days.

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