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laconicstudent
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« Reply #225 on: December 15, 2010, 10:00:18 PM »

Why are the Crusades and Islam even under discussion?  Huh
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« Reply #226 on: December 15, 2010, 10:04:40 PM »

Why are the Crusades and Islam even under discussion?  Huh

Because TryingtoConvert tried to conflate Christianity and Islam as essentially being able to say the same thing. He also mentioned the Crusades as something that those horrible God-believers would do.
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« Reply #227 on: December 15, 2010, 10:13:27 PM »

Why are the Crusades and Islam even under discussion?  Huh

Because TryingtoConvert tried to conflate Christianity and Islam as essentially being able to say the same thing. He also mentioned the Crusades as something that those horrible God-believers would do.

Would this be a good point to remind TryingtoConvert that the only officially atheist nation in history gave us this icon?





There just was a certain bit of confusion that he would raise the Crusades against Christianity on an Eastern Orthodox website.
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« Reply #228 on: December 15, 2010, 10:23:25 PM »

Why are the Crusades and Islam even under discussion?  Huh

Because TryingtoConvert tried to conflate Christianity and Islam as essentially being able to say the same thing. He also mentioned the Crusades as something that those horrible God-believers would do.

Would this be a good point to remind TryingtoConvert that the only officially atheist nation in history gave us this icon?

Good luck trying to get him to listen...

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There just was a certain bit of confusion that he would raise the Crusades against Christianity on an Eastern Orthodox website.

Much of his time consists of building Protestant strawmen against us. Accurate history is a bit of a reach for him, I think.
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« Reply #229 on: December 15, 2010, 10:44:14 PM »

OK. I will ask you to state why you hold onto faith in words no Muslim could echo. Not what your faith is, but why you hold onto it. Thus, "a personal relationship with Jesus," if you offered that, would be echoed by, "a personal relationship with Allah," which many Muslims experience five times a day, on their knees.

...because Allah is not a personal deity.
Let's not get crazy now. Roll Eyes
....how is it possible to have a personal relationship with Allah??
One has a personal relationship with Allah, by loving Allah. From the Qur'an 3:31: "Say: 'If you do love Allah follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.'"

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« Reply #230 on: December 15, 2010, 11:12:17 PM »

OK. I will ask you to state why you hold onto faith in words no Muslim could echo. Not what your faith is, but why you hold onto it. Thus, "a personal relationship with Jesus," if you offered that, would be echoed by, "a personal relationship with Allah," which many Muslims experience five times a day, on their knees.

...because Allah is not a personal deity.
Let's not get crazy now. Roll Eyes
....how is it possible to have a personal relationship with Allah??
One has a personal relationship with Allah, by loving Allah. From the Qur'an 3:31: "Say: 'If you do love Allah follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.'"


Unlike Christianity, there is no "personal" relationship with Allah in Islam.  Muslims have their law's, as laid down by their corrupt vision of Allah, that they dutifully follow.  But a "personal relationship" is not heard of.  I know this because I was a Muslim for almost ten years and not once, neither by the Sunni's nor by my Shia friends, did I hear of having any sort of relationship with Allah.  And there's no need to quote the Qur'an to me, so save your time.  Smiley
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« Reply #231 on: December 15, 2010, 11:14:07 PM »

OK. I will ask you to state why you hold onto faith in words no Muslim could echo. Not what your faith is, but why you hold onto it. Thus, "a personal relationship with Jesus," if you offered that, would be echoed by, "a personal relationship with Allah," which many Muslims experience five times a day, on their knees.

...because Allah is not a personal deity.
Let's not get crazy now. Roll Eyes
....how is it possible to have a personal relationship with Allah??
One has a personal relationship with Allah, by loving Allah. From the Qur'an 3:31: "Say: 'If you do love Allah follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.'"


Unlike Christianity, there is no "personal" relationship with Allah in Islam.  Muslims have their law's, as laid down by their corrupt vision of Allah, that they dutifully follow.  But a "personal relationship" is not heard of.  I know this because I was a Muslim for almost ten years and not once, neither by the Sunni's nor by my Shia friends, did I hear of having any sort of relationship with Allah.  And there's no need to quote the Qur'an to me, so save your time.  Smiley

But then what is Sufism for?
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« Reply #232 on: December 15, 2010, 11:14:41 PM »

OK. I will ask you to state why you hold onto faith in words no Muslim could echo. Not what your faith is, but why you hold onto it. Thus, "a personal relationship with Jesus," if you offered that, would be echoed by, "a personal relationship with Allah," which many Muslims experience five times a day, on their knees.

...because Allah is not a personal deity.
Let's not get crazy now. Roll Eyes
....how is it possible to have a personal relationship with Allah??
One has a personal relationship with Allah, by loving Allah. From the Qur'an 3:31: "Say: 'If you do love Allah follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.'"


Unlike Christianity, there is no "personal" relationship with Allah in Islam.  Muslims have their law's, as laid down by their corrupt vision of Allah, that they dutifully follow.  But a "personal relationship" is not heard of.  I know this because I was a Muslim for almost ten years and not once, neither by the Sunni's nor by my Shia friends, did I hear of having any sort of relationship with Allah.  And there's no need to quote the Qur'an to me, so save your time.  Smiley
You should have hung out with the Sufis. Wink
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« Reply #233 on: December 15, 2010, 11:18:08 PM »


There just was a certain bit of confusion that he would raise the Crusades against Christianity on an Eastern Orthodox website.

 Yes, he does seem to be confused about a lot of issues.  Maybe he just hasn't gotten that far on his cut-and-paste website.  
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« Reply #234 on: December 15, 2010, 11:28:17 PM »

OK. I will ask you to state why you hold onto faith in words no Muslim could echo. Not what your faith is, but why you hold onto it. Thus, "a personal relationship with Jesus," if you offered that, would be echoed by, "a personal relationship with Allah," which many Muslims experience five times a day, on their knees.

...because Allah is not a personal deity.
Let's not get crazy now. Roll Eyes
....how is it possible to have a personal relationship with Allah??
One has a personal relationship with Allah, by loving Allah. From the Qur'an 3:31: "Say: 'If you do love Allah follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.'"


Unlike Christianity, there is no "personal" relationship with Allah in Islam.  Muslims have their law's, as laid down by their corrupt vision of Allah, that they dutifully follow.  But a "personal relationship" is not heard of.  I know this because I was a Muslim for almost ten years and not once, neither by the Sunni's nor by my Shia friends, did I hear of having any sort of relationship with Allah.  And there's no need to quote the Qur'an to me, so save your time.  Smiley
You should have hung out with the Sufis. Wink
I did.  Depending upon the sect, you get all kinds of answers to this question.  The Sufi's I knew were the Mevlevi's from Turkey (the famous Whirling Dervishes).  They got close to what we would call a personal relationship, but it was based on a lot of chanting the names of God, called "zikr".  Chanting His name over and over whilst spinning ain't a relationship though. 
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« Reply #235 on: December 15, 2010, 11:36:18 PM »

Chanting His name over and over whilst spinning ain't a relationship though.  
Well, that's debatable.
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« Reply #236 on: December 15, 2010, 11:48:24 PM »

Chanting His name over and over whilst spinning ain't a relationship though.  
Well, that's debatable.
LOL. Only if you can call a school writing the name of the latest dreamboat on her notebook, over and over, true and lasting love.
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« Reply #237 on: December 15, 2010, 11:49:59 PM »

ialmisry, I'm curious, what part of "Gott Mit Uns" sounds atheist you? Why don't you try backing your assertions? Please, enlighten this stupid atheist....

LOL. Ignorance on parade. No, they don't. At least the majority: there are Sufis would speak of "a personal relationship with Allah", but the shar'i minded majority of Muslims, in particular the Sunni majority, do not. Their goal is submission to Allah, a being of absolute will, not having a relatiohship with Him. Except slave.

Submission is the relationship. Allah is Master, Muslim is slave. That's the relationship. It's personal, meaningful, inspirational, humbling, ennobling, and fulfilling for those who practice it.

Here's a link: People's Relationship with Allah - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1158658516938&pagename=Zone-English-Living_Shariah%2FLSELayout

Here's another: Defining Your Relationship with Allah - http://www.helium.com/items/1534543-defining-ones-relationship-with-allah

It is self-evident to all disinterested parties that Islam and Greek Orthodoxy and Lutheranism and Roman Catholicism and Judaism and any others all have precisely the same right to claim their path is the true one. All base their claims on the life experiences of the individual and the collective, alive today and extending backwards into the past for centuries. All claim their paths are personal, meaningful, inspirational, humbling, ennobling, and fulfilling for those who practice them. All claim traditions that have stood the test of time. All claim lineages of wise and devout leaders who speak in the name of God by the grace of God.

Muslims are told to pray five times a day to keep a good relationship with Allah.
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« Reply #238 on: December 15, 2010, 11:52:55 PM »

ialmisry, I'm curious, what part of "Gott Mit Uns" sounds atheist you? Why don't you try backing your assertions? Please, enlighten this stupid atheist...

Because its a slogan. In the U.S., atheists use money that states, "In God we Trust". It is no indicator whatsoever of any religious belief.
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« Reply #239 on: December 15, 2010, 11:54:28 PM »

TtC, you would benefit from a good, basic World Religions 101 class.  Perhaps when you get to college you can enroll in one. 

(I'm assuming you are very young. Smiley )
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« Reply #240 on: December 15, 2010, 11:57:41 PM »

Chanting His name over and over whilst spinning ain't a relationship though.  
Well, that's debatable.
LOL. Only if you can call a school writing the name of the latest dreamboat on her notebook, over and over, true and lasting love.
LOL!  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #241 on: December 16, 2010, 12:13:06 AM »


Submission is the relationship. Allah is Master, Muslim is slave.
You're forgetting about free-will which is the hallmark of a genuine relationship.  In Islam, if you leave - you die.  Does that sound like a relationship?  If so, then you might wish to read up on co-dependency.

It is self-evident to all disinterested parties ...
Perhaps when you become genuinely interested and not just the cut-and-paste variety of interest, you'll have a better grasp of these things.  I won't hold my breath, though.
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« Reply #242 on: December 16, 2010, 12:28:14 AM »

It is self-evident to all disinterested parties that Islam and Greek Orthodoxy and Lutheranism and Roman Catholicism and Judaism and any others all have precisely the same right to claim their path is the true one. All base their claims on the life experiences of the individual and the collective, alive today and extending backwards into the past for centuries. All claim their paths are personal, meaningful, inspirational, humbling, ennobling, and fulfilling for those who practice them. All claim traditions that have stood the test of time. All claim lineages of wise and devout leaders who speak in the name of God by the grace of God.

Why did I, a formerly disinterested party, disagree with that statement? Fail.
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« Reply #243 on: December 16, 2010, 12:37:21 AM »

Since ialmisry wants to act like a child...

why did my BS meter just go off?
I was impressed with much of what you said up until now. So your sarcasm doesn't fly with me. It's childish and uncalled for.

Quote
Hitler didn't teach Islamic theology.
So what? He murdered millions, and historians agree on many aspects of his life and thought processes. What's your point?

[quoteYes, I have seen the desparate attempts of atheists to prove this and no I don't believe they have succeeded.[/quote]
Show me the desperate attempts by atheists. Then I'll show you what legitimate historians say, what the people closest to Hitler said, and we'll see who's got the legitimate statement.

Quote
Orthodox atheism. What a concept. Are you speaking ex cathedra on that matter of faith?

One might consider believers in dialectical materialism, progressivism, Enlightenment, the Human Spirit, whatever, a believer in the Supernatural.  Indeed by your broad definition you must.  So he might consider Hitler to have been a believer in god, but not in God.
It's simple. Anyone who believes in a god is not an atheist. Or even better, one who believes in many gods, but not some, would be an atheist of some gods if it makes you feel better. For all your continued smart-assed, uncalled for remarks, you don't win by now trying to redefine atheism. A belief in the god of the bible, as Hitler had, disqualifies him as an atheist.

Quote
You said you got a BA in English.  You didn't say anything about your MD in Psychology/Psychiatry.
There's a lot you don't know about me. But the fact is that one needs no degree to repeat what is already widely known about Hitler. I don't need to be his personal doctor to be able to say that he was insane.

Quote
One can, and many have, make that argument.  That there is no truth to it-the Vatican doesn't teach racialism-is how it fails.
Ummm...I just said that. What's your point?

Quote
t credibility with the plagerist. What will I do Shocked Roll Eyes.

If I were you, I'd try to regain it. This atheist doesn't appreciate that you to come off like a punk.

So I suggest an attitude change right quick. That fact is what you claimed is patently false and you should be ashamed to even trot it out and spout it like it's the truth when it has been discredited.
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« Reply #244 on: December 16, 2010, 01:10:20 AM »

ialmisry, I'm curious, what part of "Gott Mit Uns" sounds atheist you?
what part of this did you miss?
The phrase "Gott mit uns" "God with us" was on the belt buckles long before Hitler, who would have worn one like this

in WWI. It had been the slogan of the German military since at least 1876 (I've seen collections of military etc. from then with the phrase all over)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gott_mit_uns

The Nazis didn't put the slogan on the buckles:it was the motto of the Preussian then German military before Hitler was born. Here it is on the Royal Prussian Arms in 1709.

The phrase is in the blue banner below in Fraktur.  The Nazis made a lot of use of symbols the Germans already identified with, this being one of them. Another would be "Reich" Kingdom, used although the Nazis ran a republic and opposed the monarchists and a return of the Hohenzollerns. So too their adoption of the imperial flag over the black-red-gold flag of the republic: the Weimar republic's days became numbered as more Germans flew the old imperial black-white-red instead of the official flag.

[nationalist poster of the "Let the old flags fly"]
The Nazis made this official when they took power, the idea being portraying themselves as the heirs of Imperial Germany, not the Emperor's defenders.  The switch to the Nazi party flag was made after the Bremen incident
Quote
“Bremen incident” of 26 July 1935, in which a group of demonstrators boarded the ship, tore the Nazi party flag from the jackstaff and tossed it into the Hudson River. When the German ambassador protested, US officials responded that the German national flag had not been harmed, only a political party symbol.[31] The new flag law[32] was announced at the annual party rally in Nuremberg,[33] where Hermann Göring claimed the old black-white-red flag, while honoured, was the symbol of a bygone era and under threat of being used by "reactionaries".[34]

The design of the Nazi flag was introduced by Hitler as the party flag in the summer of 1920: a flag with a red background, a white disk and a black swastika in the middle. In Mein Kampf, Hitler explained the process by which the Nazi flag design was created: It was necessary to use the same colours as Imperial Germany, because in Hitler's opinion they were "revered colours expressive of our homage to the glorious past and which once brought so much honour to the German nation."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_flag#Weimar_Republic

Btw, the Soviets were not able to abolish phrases in Russian like "spasi bo[g]" Thank you, but literally "God save [you]," and the Moscow Kremlin and St. Basil's Cathedral, monuments of and to the Russian Czar and Russian Orthodox Church, continued to be used by the Communists as symbols of the Soviet Union.

But you're right. At least Enver Hoxha was consistent in Albania: he banned all religion, going so far as to have names that reflected religion chiseled off of tombstones. Having a colored egg shell found near your house around Pascha/Easter would get you 12 years hard labor. When communism fell after over two decades of that, the first Divine Liturgy was attended by 200,000. Hoxha is dead, Christ is risen.

Quote
Why don't you try backing your assertions?

I had, and have done so some more. Do let us know if you missed something.

Quote
Please, enlighten this stupid atheist....
I though you do not believe in miracles.

LOL. Ignorance on parade. No, they don't. At least the majority: there are Sufis would speak of "a personal relationship with Allah", but the shar'i minded majority of Muslims, in particular the Sunni majority, do not. Their goal is submission to Allah, a being of absolute will, not having a relatiohship with Him. Except slave.

Submission is the relationship. Allah is Master, Muslim is slave. That's the relationship. It's personal, meaningful, inspirational, humbling, ennobling, and fulfilling for those who practice it.

That's not what they tell me, the sufis excepted.  They have the same relationship as with the theory of gravity. What have they told you? Or haven't you asked?

but there is always the internet, for those who can't deal with persons.

Quote

You will notice that it says "quran" and "sharia." Allah is very much in the background.

Quote
Here's another: Defining Your Relationship with Allah - http://www.helium.com/items/1534543-defining-ones-relationship-with-allah
Quote
However even the fact that a believer clings on to the outward action in times of weak iman is still considered acceptable by Allah
Some relationship

Quote
It is self-evident to all disinterested parties
Such as yourself  Roll Eyes

There you go, asserting again, without any demonstration of proof.

Quote
that Islam and Greek Orthodoxy and Lutheranism and Roman Catholicism and Judaism and any others all have precisely the same right to claim their path is the true one. All base their claims on the life experiences of the individual and the collective, alive today and extending backwards into the past for centuries. All claim their paths are personal, meaningful, inspirational, humbling, ennobling, and fulfilling for those who practice them. All claim traditions that have stood the test of time. All claim lineages of wise and devout leaders who speak in the name of God by the grace of God.

You side track the fact that such claims can be evaluated.  The Lutherans for instance (my former affiliation) don't claim to be founded by Martin Luther. They claim Christ, but can't explain away that 15 century jump from Christ to Luther.

Quote
Muslims are told to pray five times a day to keep a good relationship with Allah.
People who hold up a household of twelve wives as the model of perfection, and insist that a divorced couple must have another man sleep with the wife before they can be reconciled,  I don't trust to know what a relationship is, good or otherwise.
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« Reply #245 on: December 16, 2010, 01:25:48 AM »

Hitler can claim to be a "catholic."  I worked with a couple who were "catholic" and sent their children to "catholic" school for a better education and morals, but were very put out that they had to take the "supernatural" stuff too like first confession: they were agnostic/atheist in belief, but "catholic."  I've known atheists who insisted on having their children baptized for "cultural reasons" though they were "atheist" catholics, and I've known Jews in mixed marriages who were atheist but insisted on raising their children "Jewish" (oddly enough, two of them the gentile was devote Christians, the spent his childhood on mission in the Pacific atolls).  Like you said Hitler "gave conflicting statements throughout his life," but he was far from alone in that..

The No True Scotsman fallacy is not the slightest bit persuasive. Besides, Hitler did not simply claim to be Catholic, he referenced belief in God and the Divine quote often (eg. "by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord” [Mein Kampf]). This is especially evident throughout Mein Kampf, and after he survived so many attacks on his life he came to believe he was divinely protected. You claimed Hitler was an atheist. I am asking you to prove it. Arguing a case is a little more useful (and difficult) than throwing out meaningless arrogant insults and "LOLs".

And yes, of course the phrase "Gott Mit Uns" dates far back, but Hitler wouldn't have put it on the Nazi Party's belt buckles if he were an atheist.
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« Reply #246 on: December 16, 2010, 01:28:06 AM »


And yes, of course the phrase "Gott Mit Uns" dates far back, but Hitler wouldn't have put it on the Nazi Party's belt buckles if he were an atheist.

You claim to be able to know what a lunatic, dead ~70 years, would do based on a variation in his private religious beliefs? You are aware this comes across as completely ridiculous, right? Why would Hitler have removed that slogan? Is it possible that Hitler was actually intelligent enough to realize that such an action would simply be stupid?
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« Reply #247 on: December 16, 2010, 01:30:30 AM »

TtC, this being an Orthodox forum, you may well find some of the EOs here *agree* with you that Hitler was a Roman Catholic, emphasis on the "Roman".   Grin
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« Reply #248 on: December 16, 2010, 01:42:26 AM »

Since ialmisry wants to act like a child...
The old goat speaks....

why did my BS meter just go off?
I was impressed with much of what you said up until now. So your sarcasm doesn't fly with me. It's childish and uncalled for.
Sarcasm is EXACTLY what you posts cry out for.

Hitler didn't teach Islamic theology.
So what? He murdered millions, and historians agree on many aspects of his life and thought processes. What's your point?
To show that your comment
I know a thing or two about Orthodoxy, and, having passed the doctorate exams in Islamic theology at the U of C, a thing or two about Muslims
Your PhD apparently didn't cover Hitler.
had no point.

Yes, I have seen the desparate attempts of atheists to prove this and no I don't believe they have succeeded.
Show me the desperate attempts by atheists. Then I'll show you what legitimate historians say,
What website?
Quote
what the people closest to Hitler said, and we'll see who's got the legitimate statement.
Our readers at least will.

Before we go there, take a look at his friend Mussolini's religious beliefs, or lack thereof.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mussolini#Religious_beliefs

Orthodox atheism. What a concept. Are you speaking ex cathedra on that matter of faith?

One might consider believers in dialectical materialism, progressivism, Enlightenment, the Human Spirit, whatever, a believer in the Supernatural.  Indeed by your broad definition you must.  So he might consider Hitler to have been a believer in god, but not in God.
It's simple. Anyone who believes in a god is not an atheist. Or even better, one who believes in many gods, but not some, would be an atheist of some gods if it makes you feel better. For all your continued smart-assed, uncalled for remarks, you don't win by now trying to redefine atheism. A belief in the god of the bible, as Hitler had, disqualifies him as an atheist.
Hitler believed in the god of the bible? You mean Baal?  Because he certainly did not have Faith in the God of the Bible.

You are aware that the Christians were executed for atheism under the Romans, no?
Quote
Now, as Polycarp was entering into the stadium, there came to him a voice from heaven, saying, Be strong, and show yourself a man, O Polycarp! No one saw who it was that spoke to him; but those of our brethren who were present heard the voice. And as he was brought forward, the tumult became great when they heard that Polycarp was taken. And when he came near, the proconsul asked him whether he was Polycarp. On his confessing that he was, [the proconsul] sought to persuade him to deny [Christ], saying, Have respect to your old age, and other similar things, according to their custom, [such as], Swear by the fortune of Cæsar; repent, and say, Away with the Atheists. But Polycarp, gazing with a stern countenance on all the multitude of the wicked heathen then in the stadium, and waving his hand towards them, while with groans he looked up to heaven, said, Away with the Atheists. Then, the proconsul urging him, and saying, Swear, and I will set you at liberty, reproach Christ; Polycarp declared, Eighty and six years have I served Him, and He never did me any injury: how then can I blaspheme my King and my Saviour?

And when the proconsul yet again pressed him, and said, Swear by the fortune of Cæsar, he answered,

Since you are vainly urgent that, as you say, I should swear by the fortune of Cæsar, and pretend not to know who and what I am, hear me declare with boldness, I am a Christian. And if you wish to learn what the doctrines of Christianity are, appoint me a day, and you shall hear them.

The proconsul replied, Persuade the people. But Polycarp said,

To you I have thought it right to offer an account [of my faith]; for we are taught to give all due honour (which entails no injury upon ourselves) to the powers and authorities which are ordained of God. Romans 13:1-7; Titus 3:1 But as for these, I do not deem them worthy of receiving any account from me.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0102.htm
Btw, under your broad definition many Buddhist (especially the Theravada) are atheists.

You said you got a BA in English.  You didn't say anything about your MD in Psychology/Psychiatry.
There's a lot you don't know about me. But the fact is that one needs no degree to repeat what is already widely known about Hitler. I don't need to be his personal doctor to be able to say that he was insane.
Interesting scientific method of medicine you practice there.

One can, and many have, make that argument.  That there is no truth to it-the Vatican doesn't teach racialism-is how it fails.
Ummm...I just said that. What's your point?
No, you said it failed because you diagnosed Hitler as insane.  You didn't examin his beliefs and the Vatican's at all.
I lost credibility with the plagerist. What will I do Shocked Roll Eyes.
If I were you, I'd try to regain it. This atheist doesn't appreciate that you to come off like a punk.

OOOhh. I'm quaking.

Quote
So I suggest an attitude change right quick. That fact is what you claimed is patently false and you should be ashamed to even trot it out and spout it like it's the truth when it has been discredited.
Only in your wet dreams of brilliance.
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« Reply #249 on: December 16, 2010, 01:47:33 AM »

For good measure, here's a list of some of Hitler's extremely atheistic quotes:

Quote
"The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement) was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

"I have followed [the Church] in giving our party program the character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its amendment, every logical criticism, or attack on it, has been rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be built up on a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory or irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it."

[Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, _The Voice of Destruction_, pp. 239-40]

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed."

[Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, countering a political opponent, Count Lerchenfeld, who opposed antisemitism on his personal Christian feelings. Published in "My New Order", quoted in Freethought Today April 1990]

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]

"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 125]

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152]

"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]

"Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another... while the enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.309]

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"

[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

"Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, p. 171]

"I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 1]

"I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 2]

"...the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party... was to assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

"As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

"Political parties has nothing to do with religious problems, as long as these are not alien to the nation, undermining the morals and ethics of the race; just as religion cannot be amalgamated with the scheming of political parties."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

"For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of his people must always remain inviolable; or else has no right to be in politics, but should become a reformer, if he has what it takes!

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

"In nearly all the matters in which the Pan-German movement was wanting, the attitude of the Christian Social Party was correct and well-planned."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

"It [Christian Social Party] recognized the value of large-scale propaganda and was a virtuoso in influencing the psychological instincts of the broad masses of its adherents."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

"If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked among the great minds of our people."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3, about the leader of the Christian Social movement]

"Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

"I had so often sung 'Deutschland u:ber Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

"Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

"I soon realized that the correct use of propaganda is a true art which has remained practically unknown to the bourgeois parties. Only the Christian- Social movement, especially in Lueger's time achieved a certain virtuosity on this instrument, to which it owed many of its success."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 6]

"Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 7, reflecting on World War I]

"The more abstractly correct and hence powerful this idea will be, the more impossible remains its complete fulfillment as long as it continues to depend on human beings... If this were not so, the founders of religion could not be counted among the greatest men of this earth... In its workings, even the religion of love is only the weak reflection of the will of its exalted founder; its significance, however, lies in the direction which it attempted to give to a universal human development of culture, ethics, and morality."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

"To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

"The fight against syphilis demands a fight against prostitution, against prejudices, old habits, against previous conceptions, general views among them not least the false prudery of certain circles. The first prerequisite for even the moral right to combat these things is the facilitation of earlier marriage for the coming generation. In late marriage alone lies the compulsion to retain an institution which, twist and turn as you like, is and remains a disgrace to humanity, an institution which is damned ill-suited to a being who with his usual modesty likes to regard himself as the 'image' of God."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

"Parallel to the training of the body a struggle against the poisoning of the soul must begin. Our whole public life today is like a hothouse for sexual ideas and simulations. Just look at the bill of fare served up in our movies, vaudeville and theaters, and you will hardly be able to deny that this is not the right kind of food, particularly for the youth...Theater, art, literature, cinema, press, posters, and window displays must be cleansed of all manifestations of our rotting world and placed in the service of a moral, political, and cultural idea."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10, echoing the Cultural Warfare rhetoric of the Religious Right]

"But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

"While both denominations maintain missions in Asia and Africa in order to win new followers for their doctrine-- an activity which can boast but very modest success compared to the advance of the Mohammedan faith in particular-- right here in Europe they lose millions and millions of inward adherents who either are alien to all religious life or simply go their own ways. The consequences, particularly from a moral point of view, are not favorable."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

"The great masses of people do not consist of philosophers; precisely for the masses, faith is often the sole foundation of a moral attitude. The various substitutes have not proved so successful from the standpoint of results that they could be regarded as a useful replacement for previous religious creeds. But if religious doctrine and faith are really to embrace the broad masses, the unconditional authority of the content of this faith is the foundation of all efficacy."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 10]

"Due to his own original special nature, the Jew cannot possess a religious institution, if for no other reason because he lacks idealism in any form, and hence belief in a hereafter is absolutely foreign to him. And a religion in the Aryan sense cannot be imagined which lacks the conviction of survival after death in some form. Indeed, the Talmud is not a book to prepare a man for the hereafter, but only for a practical and profitable life in this world."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11]

"The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11]

"....the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11, precisely echoing Martin Luther's teachings]

"Faith is harder to shake than knowledge, love succumbs less to change than respect, hate is more enduring than aversion, and the impetus to the mightiest upheavals on this earth has at all times consisted less in a scientific knowledge dominating the masses than in a fanaticism which inspired them and sometimes in a hysteria which drove them forward."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

"The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

"All in all, this whole period of winter 1919-20 was a single struggle to strengthen confidence in the victorious might of the young movement and raise it to that fanaticism of faith which can move mountains."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

"Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

"Of course, even the general designation 'religious' includes various basic ideas or convictions, for example, the indestructibility of the soul, the eternity of its existence, the existence of a higher being, etc. But all these ideas, regardless of how convincing they may be for the individual, are submitted to the critical examination of this individual and hence to a fluctuating affirmation or negation until emotional divination or knowledge assumes the binding force of apodictic faith. This, above all, is the fighting factor which makes a breach and opens the way for the recognition of basic religious views."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

"Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

"A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

"It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

"That this is possible may not be denied in a world where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy, obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the Church. Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created?"

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

"For the greatest revolutionary changes on this earth would not have been thinkable if their motive force, instead of fanatical, yes, hysterical passion, had been merely the bourgeois virtues of law and order."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

"It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture- race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

"It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 5]

"For how shall we fill people with blind faith in the correctness of a doctrine, if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant changes in its outward structure? ...Here, too, we can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice, and in part quite superfluously, comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its dogmas... it is only such dogmas which lend to the whole body the character of a faith."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 5]

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 10]

"In the ranks of the movement [National Socialist movement], the most devout Protestant could sit beside the most devout Catholic, without coming into the slightest conflict with his religious convictions. The mighty common struggle which both carried on against the destroyer of Aryan humanity had, on the contrary, taught them mutually to respect and esteem one another."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 10]

"For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!'

[Adolf Hitler's prayer, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 2 Chapter 13]

"The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life"

[Adolph Hitler, in a speech to the Reichstag on March 23, 1933]

"ATHEIST HALL CONVERTED

Berlin Churches Establish Bureau to Win Back Worshippers

Wireless to the New York Times.

BERLIN, May 13. - In Freethinkers Hall, which before the Nazi resurgence was the national headquarters of the German Freethinkers League, the Berlin Protestant church authorities have opened a bureau for advice to the public in church matters. Its chief object is to win back former churchgoers and assist those who have not previously belonged to any religious congregation in obtaining church membership.

The German Freethinkers League, which was swept away by the national revolution, was the largest of such organizations in Germany. It had about 500,000 members ..."

[New York Times, May 14, 1933, page 2, on Hitler's outlawing of atheistic and freethinking groups in Germany in the Spring of 1933, after the Enabling Act authorizing Hitler to rule by decree]

"I go the way that Providence dictates with the assurance of a sleepwalker."

[Adolf Hitler, Speech, 15 March 1936, Munich, Germany.]

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life...."

[Adolf Hitler, Berlin, February 1, 1933]

"Today Christians ... stand at the head of [this country]... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the *poison of immorality* which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of *liberal excess* during the past ... (few) years."

[The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872]
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« Reply #250 on: December 16, 2010, 01:52:09 AM »

Ugh. Just to put you out of your misery, let me just tell you what Ialmisry was communicating; that Hitler's actions were so antithetical to Christianity that he could have possibly simply mouthed the right words for political expedience.

Translation: Adolph Hitler lied.
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don't even go there!


« Reply #251 on: December 16, 2010, 01:54:16 AM »

How did a simple discussion of the afterlife turn into a classic example of Godwin's Law?
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« Reply #252 on: December 16, 2010, 02:10:04 AM »

How did a simple discussion of the afterlife turn into a classic example of Godwin's Law?

Miller's Paradox.

On second thought, I'm not sure if Miller's Paradox applies here.
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« Reply #253 on: December 16, 2010, 02:24:24 AM »

Hitler can claim to be a "catholic."  I worked with a couple who were "catholic" and sent their children to "catholic" school for a better education and morals, but were very put out that they had to take the "supernatural" stuff too like first confession: they were agnostic/atheist in belief, but "catholic."  I've known atheists who insisted on having their children baptized for "cultural reasons" though they were "atheist" catholics, and I've known Jews in mixed marriages who were atheist but insisted on raising their children "Jewish" (oddly enough, two of them the gentile was devote Christians, the spent his childhood on mission in the Pacific atolls).  Like you said Hitler "gave conflicting statements throughout his life," but he was far from alone in that..

The No True Scotsman fallacy is not the slightest bit persuasive.
Since assessing truthful heresy is a fool's chase, I don't go into who is a true follower of the Vatican or not. The "cultural catholics" say they do not believe in God, and yet they claim to be "catholic." Those are their assertions, not mine.

Quote
Besides, Hitler did not simply claim to be Catholic, he referenced belief in God and the Divine quote often (eg. "by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord” [Mein Kampf]).
"Eternal nature is relentless in avenging transgressions of her laws. Hence, I believe I am acting in accordance with the wishes of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Sorry, "Eternal Nature" is not the Lord, God and Almighty Creator of the Bible." The god of Darwin is not I AM.

Quote
This is especially evident throughout Mein Kampf,
Quite the expert on Mein Kampf, are you. Maybe you would like to quote his comments on the "Catholic Church."

Quote
and after he survived so many attacks on his life he came to believe he was divinely protected.

the first assassination attempt came over a decade after Mein Kampf was published.

Thinking that one has a charmed life means you are divinely protected, you would think would be off limits to an atheist. Arguing with enough atheist Zionists (Herzl was one of the same) who believe God gave the Jews Palestine but don't believe in God, I know that the theory doesn't always cover the reality. Human beings are funny things.


Quote
You claimed Hitler was an atheist. I am asking you to prove it. Arguing a case is a little more useful (and difficult) than throwing out meaningless arrogant insults and "LOLs".
LOL. Well, you should know about arrogant insults without proof.

Quote
And yes, of course the phrase "Gott Mit Uns" dates far back, but Hitler wouldn't have put it on the Nazi Party's belt buckles if he were an atheist.
He didn't: the SS wore "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" ('My honour is loyalty'). I linked to that information, do I have to read it for you too? that is, besides laconicstudent trenchant assessment of this statement. After all, Musslini through out pieties, although his widow testified that he was irreligious all his life except his last few years (when his fall may have taught him humility).
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« Reply #254 on: December 16, 2010, 02:35:54 AM »

For good measure, here's a list of some of Hitler's extremely atheistic quotes:

Plagerized from here:
http://issuepedia.org/Adolf_Hitler/religion
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« Reply #255 on: December 16, 2010, 04:00:33 AM »

unfulfilled with the Jews

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Judaism quite different today than it was during Jesus' time? If I'm not mistaken, the only remaiing Jewish group that remained were the Pharisees.

I know this got lost in the debate, but anyone want to say anything to this?
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« Reply #256 on: December 16, 2010, 04:05:11 AM »

unfulfilled with the Jews

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Judaism quite different today than it was during Jesus' time? If I'm not mistaken, the only remaiing Jewish group that remained were the Pharisees.

I know this got lost in the debate, but anyone want to say anything to this?

Its very true. I still have no idea how the Jews are justifying not offering the mandated sacrifices.
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« Reply #257 on: December 16, 2010, 04:10:44 AM »

unfulfilled with the Jews

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Judaism quite different today than it was during Jesus' time? If I'm not mistaken, the only remaiing Jewish group that remained were the Pharisees.

I know this got lost in the debate, but anyone want to say anything to this?

Sorry.  Yes, you're right.  But at the very least what remains unfulfilled is the coming of the Messiah.  I think that's at the heart of the Jewish faith.
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« Reply #258 on: December 16, 2010, 05:08:22 AM »

Its very true. I still have no idea how the Jews are justifying not offering the mandated sacrifices.

My question precisely, I'd really like to hear why they stopped performing sacrifices.

Sorry.  Yes, you're right.  But at the very least what remains unfulfilled is the coming of the Messiah.  I think that's at the heart of the Jewish faith.

But what exactly has Jesus Christ not exactly "fulfilled"? The only group I know that remained after the death of Jesus, as I said above, were the Pharisees who I have no doubt modified their books so it would seem as though Christ didn't fulfill them.

Also, forgive my Protestant tendencies, the antichrist...will the Jews view that person as the Messiah then?
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« Reply #259 on: December 16, 2010, 05:55:18 AM »

How did a simple discussion of the afterlife turn into a classic example of Godwin's Law?

Well I'll tell you this, neither myself nor any atheist can make a dent in the faith because your faith doesn't derive from your thinking, but rather, your thinking derives from your faith.

For you Orthodox, reason doesn't judge faith, but rather, faith judges reason. Facts don't test faith, but rather, faith tests facts.

I promise you I am right in this. Look at this very thread and the threads I've made.

For you all, reality doesn't measure faith, but rather, faith measures reality. Seeing with your own eyes won't put faith to the question, but rather, faith will put to the question what they see with your own eyes. The many logical contradictions that would cause myself to reject faith, cause you, instead, to reject logic.

The brains of the Orthodox, Catholics, Christians etc have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; I.e., you are brainwashed. Debate is futile. Your inner response will always be, "That contradicts faith so I reject that." I would take you all back in a time machine to Palestine in the years when Jesus supposedly lived, and walk you all through all that genuinely happened, whatever it was, to the extent anything happened at all. Rather than question the faith, you all will decide you are hallucinating, or I am tricking you, or the devil is tricking you all, or the science of time travel is false.
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« Reply #260 on: December 16, 2010, 06:30:38 AM »

Well I'll tell you this, neither myself nor any atheist can make a dent in the faith because your faith doesn't derive from your thinking, but rather, your thinking derives from your faith.

For you Orthodox, reason doesn't judge faith, but rather, faith judges reason. Facts don't test faith, but rather, faith tests facts.

I promise you I am right in this. Look at this very thread and the threads I've made.

For you all, reality doesn't measure faith, but rather, faith measures reality. Seeing with your own eyes won't put faith to the question, but rather, faith will put to the question what they see with your own eyes. The many logical contradictions that would cause myself to reject faith, cause you, instead, to reject logic.

The brains of the Orthodox, Catholics, Christians etc have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; I.e., you are brainwashed. Debate is futile. Your inner response will always be, "That contradicts faith so I reject that." I would take you all back in a time machine to Palestine in the years when Jesus supposedly lived, and walk you all through all that genuinely happened, whatever it was, to the extent anything happened at all. Rather than question the faith, you all will decide you are hallucinating, or I am tricking you, or the devil is tricking you all, or the science of time travel is false.

Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately. How do you know that you are not in a Matrix of sorts?? How do you know that reality is not an illusion etc?? Your perceptions rely on the ability of your brain to accurately interpret sensory inputs in order to derive conclusions. As someone who is a veteran of three major brain surgeries, I can assure you that relying on the brain to be accurate about much of anything is a rather tenuous proposition at best. Just because a blind man lacks sight, doesn't mean we all do.

Quote
The brains of the Orthodox, Catholics, Christians etc have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; I.e., you are brainwashed. Debate is futile. Your inner response will always be, "That contradicts faith so I reject that." I would take you all back in a time machine to Palestine in the years when Jesus supposedly lived, and walk you all through all that genuinely happened, whatever it was, to the extent anything happened at all. Rather than question the faith, you all will decide you are hallucinating, or I am tricking you, or the devil is tricking you all, or the science of time travel is false.

Scenario B
Jesus Christ really was the Son of God, really lived, really died, really rose again, and really ascended into Heaven. The Church which He founded with His apostles has endured over the last 2000 years, despite the most extreme persecution possible, and has left an enduring record of teachings, martyrs and miracles to testify to a reality beyond the comprehension of the human mind.

Which is really what it comes down to. You wish to believe, and would like us to believe, that the human mind (brain actually, as the term mind refers to conciousness, a concept which has no scientific basis) is able comprehend all that was, is and shall ever be. But if God doesn't exist, then you, I, and everyone else are nothing more than highly-evolved chimps. If this is true, then what I believe or do not believe is irrelevant. Humans are simply doomed to live on average 80 or so years and then die, on a planet that is doomed to die, orbiting a star doomed to die, in a galaxy doomed to die etc.

Even if this is the case, and I don't concede that it is, I would still choose to believe in God. Belief in God provides that flicker of hope in this dark dark world. And what else matters in the end, if not hope??
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« Reply #261 on: December 16, 2010, 06:40:04 AM »

Ugh. Just to put you out of your misery, let me just tell you what Ialmisry was communicating; that Hitler's actions were so antithetical to Christianity that he could have possibly simply mouthed the right words for political expedience.

Translation: Adolph Hitler lied.
That's a lovely assertion. But can you prove it?  There's a reason it's called the No True Scotsman Fallacy.
Here's a new outlandish assertion: Stalin lied about being an atheist. He was actually a Christian.
Apparently I can just make anything up about any mass murderer by claiming they lied. Or maybe it applies to anyone. How are your claims any more supported than by those who claim Barrack Obama is a muslim
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« Reply #262 on: December 16, 2010, 06:45:28 AM »

Since assessing truthful heresy is a fool's chase, I don't go into who is a true follower of the Vatican or not. The "cultural catholics" say they do not believe in God, and yet they claim to be "catholic." Those are their assertions, not mine.
And as I said, he did not simply claim to be a "cultural Catholic." He directly alludes to "the Lord" and being a "fighter" for his "Savior". No where does he claim to be some sort of Catholic atheist. He outlawed the German Freethinkers League.

Quote
Thinking that one has a charmed life means you are divinely protected, you would think would be off limits to an atheist. Arguing with enough atheist Zionists (Herzl was one of the same) who believe God gave the Jews Palestine but don't believe in God, I know that the theory doesn't always cover the reality. Human beings are funny things.

Again, you are really doing some gymnastics here. This is all hypothetical with zero proof.

Quote
LOL. Well, you should know about arrogant insults without proof.

That long list of quotes doesn't qualify as any sort of proof for you? Would you like more?

Why did Hitler demonize atheists and associate them with "the Communist enemy"?

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

"For eight months we have been waging a heroic battle against the Communist threat to our Volk, the decomposition of our culture, the subversion of our art, and the poisoning of our public morality. We have put an end to denial of God and abuse of religion. We owe Providence humble gratitude for not allowing us to lose our battle against the misery of unemployment and for the salvation of the German peasant."

That's interesting...don't all atheists deny God?

Quote
He didn't: the SS wore "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" ('My honour is loyalty'). I linked to that information, do I have to read it for you too? After all, Musslini through out pieties, although his widow testified that he was irreligious all his life except his last few years (when his fall may have taught him humility).
I never claimed he wrote it. But as the leader of a political party and the nation he would not have had it on those belts if he were against it. It is a curious thing that an atheist would outlaw atheist groups but not get rid of a religious motto plastered on uniform.
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« Reply #263 on: December 16, 2010, 06:55:20 AM »

Ugh. Just to put you out of your misery, let me just tell you what Ialmisry was communicating; that Hitler's actions were so antithetical to Christianity that he could have possibly simply mouthed the right words for political expedience.

Translation: Adolph Hitler lied.
That's a lovely assertion. But can you prove it?  There's a reason it's called the No True Scotsman Fallacy.
Here's a new outlandish assertion: Stalin lied about being an atheist. He was actually a Christian.
Apparently I can just make anything up about any mass murderer by claiming they lied. Or maybe it applies to anyone. How are your claims any more supported than by those who claim Barrack Obama is a muslim

Yes I can prove that Stalin was not a Christian. He regularly ordered the executions and exiles of thousands of clergy, the destruction of churches, and the forced starvation through famine of millions. Even if he claimed to be a Christian, which he didn't, his actions speak otherwise.

Back to Hitler. Here is a person who claimed to be supportive of faith/religion/Christianity. Which would be news to the hundreds if not thousands of Christian clergy and believers who found themselves to be residents in one of the SS's delightful (note sarcasm) institutions at Dachau, Auschwitz, etc etc. Such persecution of Christians cut across confessional lines and was not limited on the grounds of race, ethnicity, confession etc. The conclusion one invariably reaches is that Hitler gave lip service to Christianity where required, but could not be considered a believer by any means, except perhaps a believer in nihilism.
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« Reply #264 on: December 16, 2010, 11:36:27 AM »


Sorry.  Yes, you're right.  But at the very least what remains unfulfilled is the coming of the Messiah.  I think that's at the heart of the Jewish faith.

But what exactly has Jesus Christ not exactly "fulfilled"? The only group I know that remained after the death of Jesus, as I said above, were the Pharisees who I have no doubt modified their books so it would seem as though Christ didn't fulfill them.

Also, forgive my Protestant tendencies, the antichrist...will the Jews view that person as the Messiah then?

I have no idea how to answer the second question.  I just don't know what the future holds, and I can care less what the future holds.  I care about what I do now, and how what I do helps me and those around me.

For them, Jesus Christ has not fulfilled their idea of a Messiah.  They're still waiting for the Messiah, and they don't believe Jesus was it.  That's all.
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« Reply #265 on: December 16, 2010, 12:51:16 PM »

Ugh. Just to put you out of your misery, let me just tell you what Ialmisry was communicating; that Hitler's actions were so antithetical to Christianity that he could have possibly simply mouthed the right words for political expedience.

Translation: Adolph Hitler lied.

The nerve!
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« Reply #266 on: December 16, 2010, 01:06:38 PM »

Since assessing truthful heresy is a fool's chase, I don't go into who is a true follower of the Vatican or not. The "cultural catholics" say they do not believe in God, and yet they claim to be "catholic." Those are their assertions, not mine.
And as I said, he did not simply claim to be a "cultural Catholic." He directly alludes to "the Lord" and being a "fighter" for his "Savior". No where does he claim to be some sort of Catholic atheist. He outlawed the German Freethinkers League.

He also outlawed the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Freemasons (who don't admit atheists). In the camps the JWs wore these
Quote
The U. S. Holocaust Memorial Museum has devoted a section to the Nazi persecution of Freemasonry....In order to illustrate these fears, a film monitor shows photographs of an anti-Masonic exhibition that was organized by the Nazis. In a number of popular public exhibitions, the Nazis created mock Lodge rooms complete with skeletons of lodge officers.
http://www.masonicinfo.com/nazism.htm

Thinking that one has a charmed life means you are divinely protected, you would think would be off limits to an atheist. Arguing with enough atheist Zionists (Herzl was one of the same) who believe God gave the Jews Palestine but don't believe in God, I know that the theory doesn't always cover the reality. Human beings are funny things.

Again, you are really doing some gymnastics here. This is all hypothetical with zero proof.

You remind me of the communist French minister, when faced with a successful social program based on capitalism, who demanded in exasperation "Yes, I see it works in reality, but how does it work in theory?!"

No gymnastics on my part, though I agree with you that the atheists are doing some rather artifully (that includes the Muslim atheists who argued the Muslim position on the miracle of the Quran.  Many of them were also ashamed to admit that they couldn't bring themseles to eat pork. Iqbal once said that he didn't care if Allah existed, as long as Muhammad existed). Those people were not hypostheses. They were flesh and blood, and since they professed atheism, grey matter you would say as well.

LOL. Well, you should know about arrogant insults without proof.

That long list of quotes doesn't qualify as any sort of proof for you?
No. (except proof of plagerism and lack of origianl thinking on your part). Lord willling, I will return to that.

Would you like more?
I don't encourage plagerism.

Why did Hitler demonize atheists and associate them with "the Communist enemy"?
Same reason he coopted the deicide charge:propoganda purposes. The same reason the Communists allowed the Russian Orthodox Church to reconstitute its hieararchy and began restoring Churches.

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

"For eight months we have been waging a heroic battle against the Communist threat to our Volk, the decomposition of our culture, the subversion of our art, and the poisoning of our public morality. We have put an end to denial of God and abuse of religion. We owe Providence humble gratitude for not allowing us to lose our battle against the misery of unemployment and for the salvation of the German peasant."

Again the plagerism.

That's interesting...don't all atheists deny God?
Since, as I already posted, the Early Christian Martyrs were executed on the charge of atheism, no.


He didn't: the SS wore "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" ('My honour is loyalty'). I linked to that information, do I have to read it for you too? After all, Musslini through out pieties, although his widow testified that he was irreligious all his life except his last few years (when his fall may have taught him humility).
I never claimed he wrote it. But as the leader of a political party and the nation he would not have had it on those belts if he were against it.

A mind reader too. My, you are talented.

Such examples of atheists not acting according to your orthodoxy can, and have, been multiplied. Had he come up with it, or even if he had put it on SS uniforms, it might have meant something.  But letting a time honored tradition of the imperial past he was trying to coopt continue (and not used on the institutions he was inventing), no, nothing.

Quote
It is a curious thing that an atheist would outlaw atheist groups but not get rid of a religious motto plastered on uniform.
In the grand scheme of things, not curious at all. Not a jot more curious than the atheist Mussolini granting the Vatican sovereignty, nor the atheist Stalin restoring the Russian Orthodox patriarchate. Nor, btw, the claims of the Muslim Ottomans and the Muslim Secular Turkish republic over the Orthodox Christian Ecumenical Patriarchate.
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« Reply #267 on: December 16, 2010, 01:15:46 PM »

unfulfilled with the Jews

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Judaism quite different today than it was during Jesus' time? If I'm not mistaken, the only remaiing Jewish group that remained were the Pharisees.

I know this got lost in the debate, but anyone want to say anything to this?
It's true. All the other sects of except the pharisees and the judeo-Christian sects (and of course, the Church) died out.

The Jews await someone who has already come (btw, this is reason to reject the claim of the Muslims that Christ predicted Muhammad's coming. If He did, we Christians would still be awaiting teh Prophet).

There are Jews today who want to rebuild the Temple and restart what one secular Jew called "the celestial barbeque."  They have a museum in Jerusalem with the equipment ready and waiting.

This is one way how Church continues Israel, not the Rabbis and certainly not the Zionist state: the bloodless sacrifice is still offered.
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« Reply #268 on: December 16, 2010, 01:30:49 PM »

How did a simple discussion of the afterlife turn into a classic example of Godwin's Law?

Well I'll tell you this, neither myself nor any atheist can make a dent in the faith because your faith doesn't derive from your thinking, but rather, your thinking derives from your faith.
Ah, the assertions of invincible ignorance.

As has been pointed out to you already, since many of us converted to Orthodoxy, i.e. had to think our way into it.  Rather hard if your goal is where you start from.

Quote
For you Orthodox, reason doesn't judge faith, but rather, faith judges reason. Facts don't test faith, but rather, faith tests facts.

The facts is your assertions don't make facts. Your assertion that the Orthodox do not exercise their reason is refuted with every page of every theological tome we produce. But you would have to read at least one of those pages to know that.

Quote
I promise you I am right in this. Look at this very thread and the threads I've made.

And how your thinking derives from plagerism.

Quote
For you all, reality doesn't measure faith, but rather, faith measures reality. Seeing with your own eyes won't put faith to the question, but rather, faith will put to the question what they see with your own eyes. The many logical contradictions that would cause myself to reject faith, cause you, instead, to reject logic.

In Chicago we had the event of atheists, Muslims, and Jehovah Witnesses trying to deny the human tears that were streaming down an icon of the Holy Theotokos.  Seeing wasn't believing. Even my friend's skeptiv mother was dumb founded as the priest let the investigators come in and examin and found nothing. Except tears.

Quote
The brains of the Orthodox, Catholics, Christians etc have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; I.e., you are brainwashed. Debate is futile. Your inner response will always be, "That contradicts faith so I reject that." I would take you all back in a time machine to Palestine in the years when Jesus supposedly lived, and walk you all through all that genuinely happened, whatever it was, to the extent anything happened at all. Rather than question the faith, you all will decide you are hallucinating, or I am tricking you, or the devil is tricking you all, or the science of time travel is false.
The atheist's thinking is as rich as his faith, which you continue to demonstrate.

You haven't even handled the reality handed you, let alone you being able to speculate on time travel.
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« Reply #269 on: December 16, 2010, 01:33:37 PM »

Ugh. Just to put you out of your misery, let me just tell you what Ialmisry was communicating; that Hitler's actions were so antithetical to Christianity that he could have possibly simply mouthed the right words for political expedience.

Translation: Adolph Hitler lied.
That's a lovely assertion. But can you prove it?  There's a reason it's called the No True Scotsman Fallacy.
Here's a new outlandish assertion: Stalin lied about being an atheist. He was actually a Christian.
Apparently I can just make anything up about any mass murderer by claiming they lied. Or maybe it applies to anyone. How are your claims any more supported than by those who claim Barrack Obama is a muslim
Actually, according to Islamic law, he is.

You are the one with the No True Scotsman fetish: you claim no true atheist would have "God with us" on his army's belt buckles.
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