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Author Topic: Romophobia in the Western Rite  (Read 4177 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 20, 2010, 04:54:07 AM »

Romophobia in the Western Rite  

http://padretexwest.blogspot.com/2010/08/romophobia-in-wrv.html
 
The author, an Antiochian priest, offers an expose of Romophobia in the Antiochian Western Rite.  The comments which follow the article expose what is seen as Romophobia in a convert priest of the Russian Church Abroad.
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« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2010, 05:32:36 AM »

Quote from: Fr. J. Guy Winfrey
But I know that the concerns flow from certain "devotions" that are thought of a Roman: Sacred Heart (a parallel to the Akathist to the Sweetest Lord Jesus); Stations of the Cross (St. Tikhon of Moscow even led meditations on the Stations when he was in Poland before the US--with both Orthodox and Roman Catholics joining in!). The list goes on to include Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, Corpus Christi, and so on. It is almost as if the Romophobes are looking to the 39 Articles of Religion for a guide to their theology, certainly they are held hostage to the 16th century!

Since I've never attended in any WRO parishes or monasteries I can't say whether they are romophopic or not but I fail to see how being theologically concerned over post-Schism Catholic devotions constitutes romophobia. What's that supposed to mean?
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« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2010, 10:55:14 PM »

How bizaree.  I read this last night and was thinking of posting it.  Father Ambrose, if you don't mind, could you share your thoughts on this post and the comments that follow it.  Thank you!
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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2010, 11:55:18 PM »

I guess I am a little surprised by the flippant attitude that seemed to be expressed in the article. It seemed to me that Fr Guy was praising the Romans and their innovations. Perhaps I read something into it that was not really there. Why does he need to belittle the members of the AWR and build up the romans? I have never been an anglican or a member or the western rite so I can not claim to be knowledgeable. I am rather suprised that they were allowed to keep any of their post schism devotions. I also do not see the point in baptizing anglicans and not romans, not that I am saying do one or the other but I don't understand why the romans are treated differently. I would also imagine that there are more important and pressing matters going on in the Archdiocese and the Patriarchate. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can explain their take on this.
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« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2010, 11:55:29 PM »

Quote from: Fr. J. Guy Winfrey
But I know that the concerns flow from certain "devotions" that are thought of a Roman: Sacred Heart (a parallel to the Akathist to the Sweetest Lord Jesus); Stations of the Cross (St. Tikhon of Moscow even led meditations on the Stations when he was in Poland before the US--with both Orthodox and Roman Catholics joining in!). The list goes on to include Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, Corpus Christi, and so on. It is almost as if the Romophobes are looking to the 39 Articles of Religion for a guide to their theology, certainly they are held hostage to the 16th century!

Since I've never attended in any WRO parishes or monasteries I can't say whether they are romophopic or not but I fail to see how being theologically concerned over post-Schism Catholic devotions constitutes romophobia. What's that supposed to mean?
My sentiments exactly. I do not think that the Akathist to the Sweetest Lord Jesus is anywhere close to the Sacred Heart devotion. In all honesty, I'm not a huge fan of Corpus Christi processions or Eucharistic Adoration. I think the Eucharist should be in the Liturgy only. As one person commented over there, if Roman was considered heterodox at best after the schism by the Orthodox, then the Western Orthodox should not be so eager to take Roman Catholic devotions. It is for reasons like this that I am cautious about WRO.

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« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2010, 01:12:32 AM »

I also do not see the point in baptizing anglicans and not romans, not that I am saying do one or the other but I don't understand why the romans are treated differently.

While, I've never seen it, some of the liberal "Anglican" churches have been baptizing "in the name of the creator, redeemer, and revelator" to be gender neutral. I know there has been talk in the GOA of making it mandatory for all converting Anglicans.
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« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2010, 03:49:41 AM »

How bizaree.  I read this last night and was thinking of posting it.  Father Ambrose, if you don't mind, could you share your thoughts on this post and the comments that follow it.  Thank you!

The Irish Hermit longs for the day when the Lorrha Liturgy will be restored to Irish Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2010, 05:18:14 AM »

I found this Fr. John's comment from a following discussion of this post of his. While I have disagreements about his thesis in that post I find this quote to be edifying and summarizing the attitude I think every Orthodox should have towards all rites of the Church.

Quote from: Fr. John
I'm convinced that if one is truly part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, then one must love all of the Rites of the Church, for they are the worship of God the Holy Trinity. It is not enough to grant them permission to exist. One must support them, pray for them, hope for them, and love them.
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« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2010, 05:37:25 AM »

I found this Fr. John's comment from a following discussion of this post of his. While I have disagreements about his thesis in that post I find this quote to be edifying and summarizing the attitude I think every Orthodox should have towards all rites of the Church.

Quote from: Fr. John
I'm convinced that if one is truly part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, then one must love all of the Rites of the Church, for they are the worship of God the Holy Trinity. It is not enough to grant them permission to exist. One must support them, pray for them, hope for them, and love them.

Yes, and it is quite distressing that despite the large numbers of Irish and Scottish converts to Orthodoxy, our ancient forms of worship, especially the Lorrha Liturgy, are not being supported and loved.  This is outright Celtophobia!   Cheesy

Of course there are bright spots.  Three years ago the Russian Orthodox Church designated the 3rd Sunday after Pentecost as the Feast of All Saints of the British Isles and Ireland and they are planning to build a church to Saint Patrick in Moscow.
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« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2010, 09:12:07 AM »

Yes, and it is quite distressing that despite the large numbers of Irish and Scottish converts to Orthodoxy, our ancient forms of worship, especially the Lorrha Liturgy, are not being supported and loved.  This is outright Celtophobia!   Cheesy

Where on the internet is the best translation into English of daily prayers from this Rite for personal use?
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« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2010, 10:15:33 AM »

It is Abbot-Archbishop Maelruain of Ohio of the Celtic Orthodox Church (a unique Church unconnected with any other Orthodox Church) who has done the major work of translating the Lorrha Missal into English.  It is far more than a Missal and contains the Mysteries (Sacraments), the Canonical Hours of the Day and much more, but it doesn't have daily prayers.

The full version was published as a very nice book in 2008 (ISBN 978-0-557-00229-0). 

Text of the Stowe-Lorrha Missal on the Web from Rowanhold:

Part 1:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030202223746/http://www.illusions.com/rowanhold/stowe.htm
Part 2:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030214220709/http://www.illusions.com/rowanhold/stowe2.htm


Archbishop Maelruain welcomes enquiries at
espmaelruain @ CelticChristianity.org

His website

http://celticchristianity.org/

This website offers a Breviary for download.  Click on Library.
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« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2010, 10:44:29 AM »

Thank you, Father.
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« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2010, 11:47:02 AM »

I can see the concern. But do we know for sure that this more prevalent (or existant) in liberal Anglicanism than it is in Liberal Catholicism? I would imagine that both religious communities have approved texts for their ministers to follow.

I also do not see the point in baptizing anglicans and not romans, not that I am saying do one or the other but I don't understand why the romans are treated differently.

While, I've never seen it, some of the liberal "Anglican" churches have been baptizing "in the name of the creator, redeemer, and revelator" to be gender neutral. I know there has been talk in the GOA of making it mandatory for all converting Anglicans.
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« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2010, 12:36:44 PM »

It is Abbot-Archbishop Maelruain of Ohio of the Celtic Orthodox Church (a unique Church unconnected with any other Orthodox Church) who has done the major work of translating the Lorrha Missal into English.  It is far more than a Missal and contains the Mysteries (Sacraments), the Canonical Hours of the Day and much more, but it doesn't have daily prayers.

The full version was published as a very nice book in 2008 (ISBN 978-0-557-00229-0). 

Text of the Stowe-Lorrha Missal on the Web from Rowanhold:

Part 1:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030202223746/http://www.illusions.com/rowanhold/stowe.htm
Part 2:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030214220709/http://www.illusions.com/rowanhold/stowe2.htm


Archbishop Maelruain welcomes enquiries at
espmaelruain @ CelticChristianity.org

His website

http://celticchristianity.org/

This website offers a Breviary for download.  Click on Library.
I think a lot of this is just fanciful reconstruction/byzantinization.
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« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2010, 01:15:50 PM »

I think a lot of this is just fanciful reconstruction/byzantinization.

How so?
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« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2010, 03:57:08 PM »


I think a lot of this is just fanciful reconstruction/byzantinization.


Bishop Maelruain (Dowling) of the Celtic Orthodox Church has this to say on a
list devoted to Celtic Christianity.

They have added a form of epiclesis into the 8th century Lorrha Missal:

"The prayer we have chosen to use at every celebration of the Eucharist
is the Post Mysterium of the Feast of the Throne of Saint Peter, The
Post Mysterium is a variable proper to the feast day. Some feasts
have none and the P.M.s for those that do may or may not make
reference to the Bread and Wine becoming the Body and Blood.

"The primary reason we made this alteration in practice is that one
member of our synod felt strongly that the Byzantines needed it to
recognize the Eucharist as properly confected. Personally, I feel
that there are plenty of prayers throughout the Liturgy which serve
the same purpose, so I would not consider the Liturgy lacking without
the added specific epiklesis any more than I would consider the
Chrysostom Liturgy lacking because it lacks those other prayers.

"Some have tried to force me to use the Byzantine prayer, but I see no
value in doing so. "


Here is the prayer which Bishop Maelruain has added into the Lorrha Missal to
act as an epiclesis. It is the Post Mysterium prayer for the Feast of the
Throne of Saint Peter at Rome and it may be the origin of the Byzantine and
Mozarabic forms:

"We who serve, offer these prescribed Holy Gifts of our Salvation, that Thou may
be pleased to send Thy Holy Spirit upon this Sacrifice so that it may be changed
into a legitimate Eucharist for us in the Name of Thee, Thy Son and the Holy
Spirit, in the transformation of the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ;
and may it be unto us who eat and drink, Life eternal and the eternal Kingdom.
Through Christ Himself Our Lord who reigneth with Thee and the Holy Spirit
throughout all ages of ages. Amen."


Source:
http://celticchristianity.org/library/epikl.html

Fr Ambrose
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« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2010, 04:18:33 PM »


I think a lot of this is just fanciful reconstruction/byzantinization.

The Lorrha (Stowe) Missal is now preserved in the Royal Irish Academy

They have kindly digitised it and it may be read, page by page at

http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/RIA/RIA_MS_D_ii_3/english/index.html

It's in uncial Latin so it takes some perseverance to read.



-oOo-

The publishing firm of Boydell and Brewer is once again offering copies of the Lorrha, as part of their print on demand publishing.

Stowe Missal [POD PB]

Copies can be ordered through their  web site or from your local bookshop.

http://www.boydell.co.uk/70252594.HTM

Boydell & Brewer Ltd
Whitwell House, St Audry's Park Road
Melton, Woodbridge, Suffolk IP12 1SY
Tel: +44 (0)1394 610600. Fax: +44 (0)1394 610316
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« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2010, 06:20:03 PM »

There are some pretty wonky comments going on in the discussion of that post:

"We regard Roman Catholics not as heretics, but as brethren; errant brethren, to be sure, but brethren nonetheless."

"Since the Orthodox church does not "re" baptize, condemned as the heresy of Donatism, then the only alternative is that the ROCOR is baptizing those who have never been baptized, and hence, non-Christians."

"The Council of Florence illustrated some of the worst of both sides I think. But I would have to say that the ingrained anti-Western bigotry (I don't think it can be called anything else) certainly raised its ugly head when the Council was presented in Constantinople."

 Undecided
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« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2010, 10:52:08 PM »

There are some pretty wonky comments going on in the discussion of that post:

"We regard Roman Catholics not as heretics, but as brethren; errant brethren, to be sure, but brethren nonetheless."

"Since the Orthodox church does not "re" baptize, condemned as the heresy of Donatism, then the only alternative is that the ROCOR is baptizing those who have never been baptized, and hence, non-Christians."

"The Council of Florence illustrated some of the worst of both sides I think. But I would have to say that the ingrained anti-Western bigotry (I don't think it can be called anything else) certainly raised its ugly head when the Council was presented in Constantinople."

 Undecided

Wonky is a great word for it. I'm certainly not endorsing this point here (nor do I believe it), but I can understand why some Eastern Orthodox would be skeptical of Western Orthodox if they saw comments like this above.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2010, 02:56:46 PM »

I don't share his willing to introduce post-schism RC devotions into the OC but he is right in some parts. ROCOR WRO is indeed anti-Roman and not only anti-Roman but they are anti-everything that is not Celtic. As far as their targets are High Church Anglicans it's not a problem but they won't go further with it. They should open for Scandinavian/Iberian/Latin/Gallican traditions if they want to have  more WRO institutions that two or three tiny Monasteries and not many more Missions associated with them that will die out, when Frs. Michael and Aidan pass away.
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2010, 05:22:48 PM »


ROCOR WRO is indeed anti-Roman and not only anti-Roman but they are anti-everything that is not Celtic.


Is that accurate?

Fr. Augustine Whitfield (recently deceased) has always kept his "Use of Mt. Royal", based on Carthusian usage;
 
Fr. Aidan follows Sarum and pre-Sarum texts with an abundance of Proper Prefaces, Sequences and Tropes;
 
Fr. James Deschene follows, from what I understand, the "Black Benedictine" books, with a more or less Tridentine form of the Mass;

Abbot David follows Sarum usage;
 
Fr. Michael in Tasmania and the UK has his own liturgical preferences, mainly the Anglican Book of Common Prayer so that's already 5 "styles" right there and none of them are "Celtic."
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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2010, 05:25:05 PM »

Which, then, are Celtic?
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2010, 05:28:09 PM »

I've been using "Celtic" as "coming from the British Isles" in the WRO context.

But you won't deny that the British Isles are overrepresented, will you?
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« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2010, 06:09:10 PM »

I've been using "Celtic" as "coming from the British Isles" in the WRO context.

But you won't deny that the British Isles are overrepresented, will you?
I can't speak for Fr. Ambrose, but I don't think so. Those Uses are just modifications of the Gregorian Liturgy. Some are more different than others, but not as different as say the Gregorian Liturgy and the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. The actual Celtic Liturgy "Stowe" Missal does seem quite different from the Gregorian Liturgy, at least to me anyways.

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« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2010, 05:01:55 AM »

I've been using "Celtic" as "coming from the British Isles" in the WRO context.

But you won't deny that the British Isles are overrepresented, will you?
I can't speak for Fr. Ambrose, but I don't think so. Those Uses are just modifications of the Gregorian Liturgy.

Also Fr. Aidan has specifically emphasized that his Sarum use is just a local use of the Roman rite. Can't see much romaphobia in that.

But I wholeheartedly agree with mike that ROCOR should be wide open for Scandinavian traditions. Wink
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« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2010, 04:38:04 PM »

I've been using "Celtic" as "coming from the British Isles" in the WRO context.

But you won't deny that the British Isles are overrepresented, will you?
The reason for this is that the British Isles and the USA have money to fund millions of experiments which in many parts of continental Europe and other parts of the world would be viewed as foolish.

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« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2010, 04:47:36 PM »

I've been using "Celtic" as "coming from the British Isles" in the WRO context.

But you won't deny that the British Isles are overrepresented, will you?
The reason for this is that the British Isles and the USA have money to fund millions of experiments which in many parts of continental Europe and other parts of the world would be viewed as foolish.

What on earth are you referring to? Huh
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« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2010, 05:10:07 PM »

I've been using "Celtic" as "coming from the British Isles" in the WRO context.

But you won't deny that the British Isles are overrepresented, will you?
The reason for this is that the British Isles and the USA have money to fund millions of experiments which in many parts of continental Europe and other parts of the world would be viewed as foolish.

What on earth are you referring to? Huh

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« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2010, 05:15:45 PM »

ROCOR WRO is indeed anti-Roman and not only anti-Roman but they are anti-everything that is not Celtic.

Why do you assume that if "A" is not present in "B", then "B" is "anti-A"? Besides, the Roman rite is used in the ROCOR: by Fr. Abbot James (Deschene) and Fr. Anthony Nelson. I do agree that the veneration of Celtic saints is widespread among WRO, but as far as Liturgies are concerned, none Celtic rites are used anywhere, except for the Liturgy of St. Germanus which is served occasionally by some bi-ritual (but predominantly ER) Serbian and Romanian Patriarchates' parishes in France. Fr. Michael (Wood) did translate the Celtic Stowe Missal but it is not used by anyone.

They should open for Scandinavian/Iberian/Latin/Gallican traditions if they want to have  more WRO institutions that two or three tiny Monasteries and not many more Missions associated with them that will die out, when Frs. Michael and Aidan pass away.

I'm sure they are open to the whole Western Orthodox treasury, but they simply focus on their own Anglo-Saxon heritage and shouldn't be blamed for this.
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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2010, 05:26:23 PM »

I've been using "Celtic" as "coming from the British Isles" in the WRO context.

There is something in this.
Quote
The Anglo-Saxons learned their Christianity from the Church which pre-dated their arrival. Consequently the layout of the “typical” late Anglo-Saxon church is not all that different from that of a Celtic Church.
Source: http://orthodoxresurgence.com/petroc/index.htm#INSIDE%20THE

But still, I believe that using "Celtic" as "coming from the British Isles" is an oversimplification.

But you won't deny that the British Isles are overrepresented, will you?

They are simply well represented, not "over-".
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« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2010, 05:32:07 PM »

I've been using "Celtic" as "coming from the British Isles" in the WRO context.

But you won't deny that the British Isles are overrepresented, will you?
The reason for this is that the British Isles and the USA have money to fund millions of experiments which in many parts of continental Europe and other parts of the world would be viewed as foolish.

What on earth are you referring to? Huh



This is foolish but Spider-Pig was cool. Grin
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« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2010, 05:34:44 PM »

Met. PHILIP gave explicit permission to his Western Rite parishioners to "make use of any post-Schism devotions so long as they are not contrary to Orthodoxy."

The point is not to "introduce" anything foreign into Orthodoxy, as if all Orthodox would have to participate in such devotions; the point is that Orthodoxy has the power to assume and bless anything that is true, good and beautiful, and the fact is that there is much that is life-giving for Western people in the devotions that have been such a large part of their life.  To infuse them with Orthodox understanding is a marvelous thing indeed.  This should be encouraged, not looked down upon.
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« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2010, 05:41:25 PM »

Met. PHILIP gave explicit permission to his Western Rite parishioners to "make use of any post-Schism devotions so long as they are not contrary to Orthodoxy."

The point is not to "introduce" anything foreign into Orthodoxy, as if all Orthodox would have to participate in such devotions; the point is that Orthodoxy has the power to assume and bless anything that is true, good and beautiful, and the fact is that there is much that is life-giving for Western people in the devotions that have been such a large part of their life.  To infuse them with Orthodox understanding is a marvelous thing indeed.  This should be encouraged, not looked down upon.

The problem is, that if something is contrary to Orthodoxy or not, is a matter of interpretation.
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« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2010, 05:46:33 PM »

Can you elaborate?  I didn't know that Apostolic Faith was open to interpretation, and I'm not being snide!  I'm genuinely interested in what you mean.
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« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2010, 03:02:02 AM »

Can you elaborate?  I didn't know that Apostolic Faith was open to interpretation, and I'm not being snide!  I'm genuinely interested in what you mean.

It is a matter of interpretation if a given devotion is contrary to Orthodoxy or not. Let's take, for example, the Sacred Heart of Jesus devotion. Some WRO suggest it is appropriate for Orthodox (http://www.google.pl/search?q=%22sacred+heart%22+site:westernorthodox.com), others say it isn't (http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/SacredHeart.html).
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« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2010, 07:49:06 AM »

Can you elaborate?  I didn't know that Apostolic Faith was open to interpretation, and I'm not being snide!  I'm genuinely interested in what you mean.

It is a matter of interpretation if a given devotion is contrary to Orthodoxy or not. Let's take, for example, the Sacred Heart of Jesus devotion. Some WRO suggest it is appropriate for Orthodox (http://www.google.pl/search?q=%22sacred+heart%22+site:westernorthodox.com), others say it isn't (http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/SacredHeart.html).

Is that interpretation or theologoumena?
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« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2010, 01:26:50 AM »

I see that Romophobia extends beyond the AWRV and into the Russian Church Abroad, with Hieromonk Michael who is the assistant to the Metropolitan for the WR mission in Australia (his home country) and the UK.

See his comment at

http://www.theanglocatholic.com/2010/03/aca-hob-meeting-day-2/

It's blunt and infelicitous in its expression and I cringed a little that it was presented on such an internet board.  It does not seem the way to go about attracting people into the Western Rite and ROCA; it will drive them away..
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« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2010, 01:37:54 AM »

I see that Romophobia extends beyond the AWRV and into the Russian Church Abroad, with Hieromonk Michael who is the assistant to the Metropolitan for the WR mission in Australia (his home country) and the UK.

See his comment at

http://www.theanglocatholic.com/2010/03/aca-hob-meeting-day-2/

It's blunt and infelicitous in its expression and I cringed a little that it was presented on such an internet board.  It does not seem the way to go about attracting people into the Western Rite and ROCA; it will drive them away..

I don't want to comment on the Anglo-Catholic posts but they usefully reprinted the decision of the Synod of Bishops in 1978 that has since been rescinded.  It at least shows that it has not been plain sailing for the western-rite since 1870:
"RESOLVED: The Western rite in its present form was introduced after the apostasy of the West from the Orthodox Church and is not in accord with the liturgical life of the Orthodox Church with which it had been united for the course of many centurles. It does not reflect the Orthodox Church's liturgical tradition. Thus, it does not satisfy converts to Orthodoxy when they familiarize themselves with it to a greater degree, and has nowhere enjoyed success. In consequence of the above, the Council of Bishops does not recognize it as possible to permit the Western Rite in the Russian Church."

– ROCOR prohibition on the Western Rite, published in January of 1979
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Clearly ROCOR has rescinded this view.  I know that some blame Bishop Gregory (Grabbe) for this decision and I'd like to understand greater the reasoning and also the reasoning why it was rescinded or perhaps more correctly why the WR was not shut down, but was allowed to continue.  It is perplexing history.
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« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2010, 08:27:09 AM »

Some on this forum, disapprove of the way the Pope changed the Liturgy in the previous century, but by what authority do the Orthodox bishops invent liturgical rites?
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« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2010, 09:03:37 AM »

Firstly: not 'invent' but  'restore'. Secondly: not the restoration but the effect of it is criticized.
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« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2010, 09:07:26 AM »

Firstly: not 'invent' but  'restore'. Secondly: not the restoration but the effect of it is criticized.

Subdeacon David, Iconodule, and others clearly criticize the restoration.
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« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2010, 09:09:32 AM »

Do I have to agree with them?
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« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2010, 09:10:16 AM »

Do I have to agree with them?

Yes!  Grin
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« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2010, 09:28:34 AM »


Hmm sounds like...



 Grin
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« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2010, 09:32:18 AM »

I've been using "Celtic" as "coming from the British Isles" in the WRO context.

But you won't deny that the British Isles are overrepresented, will you?
The reason for this is that the British Isles and the USA have money to fund millions of experiments which in many parts of continental Europe and other parts of the world would be viewed as foolish.

What on earth are you referring to? Huh



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