Author Topic: Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners  (Read 2796 times)

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Offline jac109

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Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« on: May 08, 2004, 01:44:43 AM »
[I wondered how long before we'd be hearing this.]

Anger fuels calls for revenge

"Another internet user from Jordan, Abdel Jabbar Abu Gharbiya, called on
the 'heroic fighters in Iraq to 'cut the penises of enemy soldiers taken
prisoner and to release them in order for them to suffer the pains of
humiliation."

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,6119,2-10-1460_1522341,00.html
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Offline Ben

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2004, 02:55:59 AM »
I am amazed that human beings, created for such a wonderful purpose, can be such a powerful vessel of hate, violence, and anger. This war, and I guess all wars, really open my eyes to hwe cruel people can be, and how evil is a very powerful force on this planet, that can not be ignored.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2004, 02:56:51 AM by Ben »
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Offline Linus7

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2004, 08:14:33 AM »
I am amazed that human beings, created for such a wonderful purpose, can be such a powerful vessel of hate, violence, and anger. This war, and I guess all wars, really open my eyes to hwe cruel people can be, and how evil is a very powerful force on this planet, that can not be ignored.

I agree.

I am also amazed at how irresponsible the U.S. news media can be during a time of war.

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Offline Jennifer

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2004, 10:42:11 AM »
I agree.

I am also amazed at how irresponsible the U.S. news media can be during a time of war.



Yeah, those are equal "wonderings."  Frustration at evil in the world on one hand and frustration at how the US media doesn't support the President's actions on the other.  Definitely the same degree of "wondering."

Offline jac109

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2004, 10:49:41 AM »
I agree.

I am also amazed at how irresponsible the U.S. news media can be during a time of war.

What amazes me most, and this seems, unfortunately, to be a sign of the times, is that two of the soldiers arrested for abusing prisons are women!

Also I thought the excuses given by the one guy were pretty hollow. He complained that they "weren't trained" and "weren't told" about the Geneva Convention. Ok, do we actually have to "train" people how to behave like humans?

Yes, I know, war is war, and things like this are to be expected, I suppose. However, the one danger involved with mistreating prisoners in time of war is how you treat the enemy, your people will get the same when captured. Of course, some will say that after the pics of the burnt corpses of American hanging from that bridge were made public justified whatever the Iraqis got. But if my understanding of the timing is right, the US prison was abusing its Iraqi captives well before the corpse abuse incident occurred.

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Offline Orthodoc

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2004, 10:58:23 AM »
[Also I thought the excuses given by the one guy were pretty hollow. He complained that they "weren't trained" and "weren't told" about the Geneva Convention. Ok, do we actually have to "train" people how to behave like humans?]

AMEN!  All those troops are eighteen years or older.  They are responsible adults.  To claim they needed to be told at that age what is right and what is wrong, what is just plain common decency, is utterly rediculous!

I do agree that many of the troops going over there are reserve units that were poorly trained and equipted thanks to the previous administration and it's distain for the military.   But that has nothing to do with this particular incident which is a matter of common sense and decency.

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Offline Jennifer

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2004, 11:17:00 AM »
[Also I thought the excuses given by the one guy were pretty hollow. He complained that they "weren't trained" and "weren't told" about the Geneva Convention. Ok, do we actually have to "train" people how to behave like humans?]

AMEN!  All those troops are eighteen years or older.  They are responsible adults.  To claim they needed to be told at that age what is right and what is wrong, what is just plain common decency, is utterly rediculous!

I do agree that many of the troops going over there are reserve units that were poorly trained and equipted thanks to the previous administration and it's distain for the military.   But that has nothing to do with this particular incident which is a matter of common sense and decency.

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Yes it's definitely Clinton's fault.  Let's always find a way to blame Clinton for everything.  Sure he hasn't been in office for almost 4 years but I'm sure it's still his fault.  


Offline Nacho

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2004, 01:05:02 PM »
Quote
Yes it's definitely Clinton's fault.  Let's always find a way to blame Clinton for everything.  Sure he hasn't been in office for almost 4 years but I'm sure it's still his fault.

Our military is just recovering from the all out assault by the Clinton Administration. Just in my area, there were 2 big bases that were closed down because of the Clinton Administration.

I find it scary that any President would have it on his mind to dismantle our military in these times, especially with countries like China & North Korea lurking around. If anything, a stronger military is what we need.
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Offline Seraphim Reeves

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2004, 01:35:55 PM »
Linus,

Quote
I am also amazed at how irresponsible the U.S. news media can be during a time of war.

In one sense, I can agree with you here - one could say "sadly, bad things happen during wars", shrug, and then contemplate how it's rather unfair that this is going to cause all sorts of reprisals against American troops.  From that point of view, it is very irresponsible for American news media outlets to publish these things far and wide...that is, if they were intended to be employees of the American government.

Though the point will undoubtedly be lost upon the Iraqis (and the Arab world in general), I think that such an abominable series of crimes was publicized by Americans, and government and military officials have had their feet put to the fire over this, is a sign that for all of it's serious problems, the Americans on a whole are coming from a better, indeed "superior" place.  I have a hard time believing many other nations (at least not western nations) could be so self critical in their treatment of the enemy, let alone during a time of warfare.

Seraphim

Offline Seraphim Reeves

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2004, 02:00:26 PM »
jac109,

Quote
What amazes me most, and this seems, unfortunately, to be a sign of the times, is that two of the soldiers arrested for abusing prisons are women!

Kind of makes one question the popular liberal-western assumption of female moral superiority, or that a world controlled by women (matriarchy) would necessarily be a kinder, more peaceful place. :(

Quote
Yes, I know, war is war, and things like this are to be expected, I suppose. However, the one danger involved with mistreating prisoners in time of war is how you treat the enemy, your people will get the same when captured. Of course, some will say that after the pics of the burnt corpses of American hanging from that bridge were made public justified whatever the Iraqis got. But if my understanding of the timing is right, the US prison was abusing its Iraqi captives well before the corpse abuse incident occurred.

Unfortunately, the argument about the burned corpses of Americans will have little weight for the following reasons...

i) people ruled by the passtions are (in general) hypocritical.
ii) the Americans have essentially placed themselves in a position of moral superiority to the Iraqis, and to the Arab world in general.  For the Iraqis to see Americans doing these kind of things, is worse than seeing one of their own (like a Saddam, who was well known for similar practices) doing this.

Another problem (not popularly publicized in the west) is that those men you saw burned to a crisp in those pictures were not civillians, or even soldiers, but were mercenaries.  Right now there are many "consultants" (this is the technical euphemism used for mercenaries) in the employ of the Americans (I do not know if this is true of the military, but it would seem to be true of American/western businesses with assets/interests in Iraq), and operating in Iraq.  One troubling thing about these mercenaries is that they generally operate outside of the confines that servicemen do - whether it be in terms of their observance of international law, U.S. military "rules of engagement", or even the choices of equipment they employ (many mercs being known to employ state of the art equipment known for it's lethal effficiency, and not for it's balance in man stopping power while trying to be "non lethal" if possible.)

Blackwater Security Consulting - the website of the "security firm" from which the above mentioned burned mercs were contracted from.

Deaths of Scores of Mercenaries Hidden From View (story also alludes to the burned/mutiliated Americans, and their status as mercenaries)

Occupiers Spend Millions on Private Army of Security Men - talks about the extent to which mercenaries are being employed in Iraq, and that many are South African or even Chilleans trained during the brutal Pinochet regime!

etc, etc

While what the Iraq did to the men was horrific, it's not hard to understand - as some aid workers have pointed out, the presence of mercs (who are not uniformed) has created an atmosphere of intense distrust amongst the Iraqis towards all westerners.  Thus, when they "find out" a mercenary, their reaction is a kin to what most people are like when they find a rat - swift, brutal, and vengeful.

Seraphim

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2004, 02:23:32 PM »
One thing that hasn't been pointed out much anywhere....

Consider the Americans involved in this: many probably new someone, maybe even someone close, who was killed in action by the Iraqis.   They all knew that if they were (or another American) captured they would be treated very brutally.  All of these affects how they react when the prisoners who were abused most likely acted like animals themselves in prison.  Angry prisoners tend to throw body fluids, waste etc. at thier gaurds, which would tend to anger most of us.  So it is not hard to understand how this happened.  If I were placed in the same situation and day after day after day after day had to endure what the average prison gaurd in Iraq has to endure I know I would have probably done the same things.  None of this makes it right, but I would not be so quick to demonzie the American abusers as some are.

Offline Ben

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2004, 05:33:42 PM »
War is one of the greatest evils of all. I am not saying that no war can ever be justified, but I wonder if even a war in defense of ones home and Country is really worth it.

War is full of sin, sin of every kind, and a Christian should rather die than sin against God. This is why I truly don't understand war, and those who are so eager to fight and kill the enemy. War seems to be a betrayel of so many fundamental Christian values. It just seems to me that we, as Christians, should rather loose our home, family, rights, whatever ever it may be, than sin against God.

War seems to be a result of greed, lust, and a lack of forgiveness and paitence. To me, one who takes seriously the teachings of our Lord, and truly wants nothing but him, would embrace great sufferings of every kind, leave it to the will of God, and try to do everything possible to promote peace and love, rather than taking up arms and murdering their fellow man.

Many will disagree with me, I am sure, and will bring up situations where war seems to have been the only answer, but it seems that the only answer for a Christian, to every porblem, should be Jesus Christ, the King of Peace.

What is happening in Iraq is a product of Satan using human beings, created for God, and nothing else, as insane vessels of violence and hate. And yes this includes American men and women, who have become slaves of violence.

I'm sure I have offended someone, but I have only expressed what seems to be the truth. I do not hate men and women in the military, a great number of my family members served in WWII and some in the Vietnam War. My brother is actually a marine. I don't hate them, or anybody for that matter, but I do see something wrong with our culture's obsession with war. But this shouldn't surprise me, we are a culture of death, and the only solution, in my opinion, is Jesus Christ, the author of life.
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Offline jac109

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2004, 06:32:08 PM »
War is one of the greatest evils of all. I am not saying that no war can ever be justified, but I wonder if even a war in defense of ones home and Country is really worth it.

War is full of sin, sin of every kind, and a Christian should rather die than sin against God. This is why I truly don't understand war, and those who are so eager to fight and kill the enemy. War seems to be a betrayel of so many fundamental Christian values. It just seems to me that we, as Christians, should rather loose our home, family, rights, whatever ever it may be, than sin against God.

I have heard somewhere that there is an Orthodox concept of "necessary sin" that applies in war.

We can also look to the story of Jesus Christ's arrest when I think it was Peter(?) who hacked off the ear of a Roman soldier with a sword he carried to protect the Apostles' purse. One would assume the sword was carried with Christ's approval. The point is that while Christians should certainly avoid war and violence, we cannot simply be pacifists no matter what the situation otherwise we would simply be abused, robbed, and murdered until there's no one left.

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Offline Jennifer

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2004, 06:36:07 PM »
One thing that hasn't been pointed out much anywhere....

Consider the Americans involved in this: many probably new someone, maybe even someone close, who was killed in action by the Iraqis.

Statistically speaking, that's unlikely. I forget the exact casualty figures but it's a few hundred out of about 150,000 Americans in Iraq.  Therefore it's unlikely that the average American solider in Iraq *knows* someone who's been killed.  

Quote
 They all knew that if they were (or another American) captured they would be treated very brutally.  All of these affects how they react when the prisoners who were abused most likely acted like animals themselves in prison.  Angry prisoners tend to throw body fluids, waste etc. at thier gaurds, which would tend to anger most of us.  So it is not hard to understand how this happened.  If I were placed in the same situation and day after day after day after day had to endure what the average prison gaurd in Iraq has to endure I know I would have probably done the same things.  None of this makes it right, but I would not be so quick to demonzie the American abusers as some are.  

It's a pretty big leap to assume that the Iraq prisoners "most likely acted like animals."

Offline Ben

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2004, 06:41:55 PM »
Quote
I have heard somewhere that there is an Orthodox concept of "necessary sin" that applies in war.


I understand this, in my post I was not trying to convince anyone that the Orthodox Church forbade war under any type of circumstance, I was just expressing my opinion.

Quote
We can also look to the story of Jesus Christ's arrest when I think it was Peter(?) who hacked off the ear of a Roman soldier with a sword he carried to protect the Apostles' purse
.

And what did our Lord tell Peter? Did he not order him to put down the sword? Did he not say "who lives by the sword, dies by the sword"?

Quote
The point is that while Christians should certainly avoid war and violence, we cannot simply be pacifists no matter what the situation otherwise we would simply be abused, robbed, and murdered until there's no one left.

We must be willing to undergo the most extreme sufferings God wills us to have, in my opinion. We must embrace our cross with humility and faith in Jesus Christ. The will of God will be done, no matter what, we must suffer what ever God sends us. And it seems to me that we Christians should be willing to suffer whatever God sends us, rather than sining against God. We should hate sin with our entire being and do everything and anything to avoid it, even if that means ending up abused, robbed, and murdered.

« Last Edit: May 08, 2004, 06:43:42 PM by Ben »
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Offline katherine 2001

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2004, 06:59:57 PM »
There is no excuse for how the Iraqui prisoners were treated.  Personally, I am thankful that it was exposed.  Good for the media.  If you just cover it up, then it continues to go on.  I don't care if someone you knew was killed by the Iraquis.   This is a country that is being occupied by a foreign power who is occupying them even though their objectives for the war have already been accompished.  If our country was being occupied by a foreign power, especially after their objectives for going to war against us had already been accomplished and they really had no reason to still be occupying us that our citizens would be fighting back too?  

Again, the media has done a good job in exposing this outrage.  We do have a right to know that this is going on.  Freedom of the Press and the right of the American people to know what people in their government does, even in wartime.  If their wasn't so much lying and corruption in government, this wouldn't be necessary.

Offline Ben

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2004, 07:05:05 PM »

Again, the media has done a good job in exposing this outrage.  We do have a right to know that this is going on.  Freedom of the Press and the right of the American people to know what people in their government does, even in wartime.  If their wasn't so much lying and corruption in government, this wouldn't be necessary.  

Amen! I agee 100%
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2004, 07:36:56 PM »
I glad to see that you are all perfect human beings that would never have a poor reaction to having human feces and urine thrown in your face day after day.  I am glad to know that if you were put in a bad situation you would be perfect.

Offline Ben

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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2004, 07:46:05 PM »
Firstly, do we know the the Iraqi prisoners did in fact throw urine and human feces at the prison gaurds? I have not heard this, and I am really wondering where you go this information.

Secondly, I do not think I am perfect or that you have to be perfect to be a Christian. Being a Christian, however, isn't easy, it is a difficult journey, that takes courage, faith, and virtue. As Christians, we must do everything we can to live a good life, and grow in mercy and paitence. We must never be quick to anger and violence, and when we find ourselves slaves of our passions and baptized in anger and hate, we must repent and seek absolution.
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Re:Calls Arise for Torture of US Prisoners
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2004, 10:18:07 PM »
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