Author Topic: Which churches on the same side of the coin?  (Read 16810 times)

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Offline Luckster

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #90 on: April 05, 2013, 01:43:09 AM »
Epic necro

Online Papist

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #91 on: April 05, 2013, 02:07:46 PM »
It's probably more of a three-sided coin.
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Offline sedevacantist

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Re:Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #92 on: April 06, 2013, 02:39:19 PM »
the EvProt disagrees because he sees the doctrine of Sola Scriptura laid out clearly in the Scriptures,

That's wack.
question for you since I'm not allowed to comment on the other thread where you insulted my comment on the jews going to hell, using the bible can you show me how jews who don't believe in Christ can make it to heaven?  The vatican 2 sect teaches they can be saved, the traditional catholic church teaches they can not, what is the official teaching of the orthodox on this issue?

Offline JamesR

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #93 on: April 06, 2013, 05:18:47 PM »
To me, the biggest similarity between ROman Catholicism and Protestantism is that, for the most part, they both share the same western (some would say "Augustinian") predisposition of legalism which, in turn, acts as the foundation of their theology. As a result, both share the same legalistic tendencies of overemphasizing the judicial-guilt element to sin and the image of God as a judge. Hence why they both view Original Sin as an inheritence of guilt, and view Salvation as merely being an acquittal verdict from guilt, and view the Crucifixion as being an act of scapegoating. This is why the concept of "Grace" as in God acquitting us due to no actions of our own but out of the kindness of His heart is so important to them. Thus, the ROman Catholics believe that we accept God's acquittal through the Sacraments and life of the Church. Protestantism is merely this legalistic viewpoint of Grace taken to the next step. Basically, it's just the reduction of the Sacraments and Church, in lieu of mere "faith alone"--which, they usually define as belief in God. Protestantism is just westernism taken to the next level. Going even further, Calvinism is Protestantism taken to the next step. It then says that not only is "faith alone" able to "save you", but that there is NOTHING we can do to "save" ourselves and thus God had it predetermined since the beginning of time. See the similarity? These three viewpoints all stem from the same western "Augustinian" predisposition. Protestantism is merely just Augistinianism taken to the next step, and Calvinism is Augistinianism taken to its fullest extreme.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #94 on: April 06, 2013, 05:19:16 PM »
Why would the Orthodox Church have any official teaching on who can or can't go to heaven? That's up to God...or was the right-hand thief a self-proclaimed traditional catholic, too?

Offline JamesR

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #95 on: April 06, 2013, 05:46:35 PM »
I'm probably going to tick off a lot of people by saying this, but am I the only one who thinks that Protestantism is actually more similar to Islam than it is to Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy? The reason being that both Protestantism and Islam are very "plain" and "straightforward" for lack of better terms in their function, both are highly iconoclastic, both share a similar involvement in temperance from alcohol, both deny anything Sacramental--especially in regards to marriage, both believe in the supremacy of one book, and both share a distaste for the concept of monasticism/nunhood.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Online Cyrillic

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #96 on: April 06, 2013, 05:51:40 PM »
I wouldn't compare real Protestantism (Lutheranism, Anglicanism, traditional Calvinism etc.) to Islam.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 05:52:07 PM by Cyrillic »
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Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!"
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #97 on: April 06, 2013, 05:55:26 PM »
I wouldn't compare real Protestantism (Lutheranism, Anglicanism, traditional Calvinism etc.) to Islam.

Well how about American low-Church Evangelical Protestantism? You know, the kind who sing that "Old Buddah" song that Orthonorm mentioned.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline laconicstudent

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #98 on: April 06, 2013, 05:59:45 PM »
Islam has always struck me as far more liturgical and having a much greater reverence for God than your usual Evangelical Protestant.

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #99 on: April 07, 2013, 06:26:50 AM »
I wouldn't compare real Protestantism (Lutheranism, Anglicanism, traditional Calvinism etc.) to Islam.

Well how about American low-Church Evangelical Protestantism? You know, the kind who sing that "Old Buddah" song that Orthonorm mentioned.

They're seriously deranged. But even then, Islam has works-bases salvation. Evangelicalism, not so much.
"We are the hollow men
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Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!"
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Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #100 on: April 07, 2013, 07:46:49 AM »
Why would the Orthodox Church have any official teaching on who can or can't go to heaven? That's up to God...or was the right-hand thief a self-proclaimed traditional catholic, too?
so are you saying the orthodox church doesn't have any teaching on what it takes to be saved?
as for the good thief:
 the Good Thief died under the Old Law, not the New Law; he died before the Law of Baptism was instituted by Jesus Christ after the Resurrection.  For that reason, the Good Thief, like the Holy Innocents, constitutes no argument against the necessity of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/the_catholic_church_salvation_faith_and_baptism.php#goodthief

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #101 on: April 07, 2013, 07:50:19 AM »
There are a lot things we can say about what it takes to be saved. That might be the most common question addressed in the sayings of the Desert Fathers. It's also a different question than who can be saved.

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #102 on: April 07, 2013, 09:35:57 AM »
There are a lot things we can say about what it takes to be saved. That might be the most common question addressed in the sayings of the Desert Fathers. It's also a different question than who can be saved.
the question is not so different, do you believe you must believe in Christ to be saved for starters, is that one of the things it takes to be saved ? if you say yes then how can non believers be saved?

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #103 on: April 07, 2013, 01:43:01 PM »
the question is not so different

Yes, they are. One deals with what a person must do to be saved, and another deals with the theoretical possibility that someone outside of the Church may be saved. The first we can know, the second we cannot. We do not have official proclamations about the efficacy of anything outside of our Church, whether we're talking about heterodox or non-Christians.

Quote
do you believe you must believe in Christ to be saved for starters, is that one of the things it takes to be saved ?

My personal belief? Yes, of course. Christ is the Savior of the whole world. There is no other name by which we may be saved.

Quote
if you say yes then how can non believers be saved?

I do not know. I don't mean that as a cop out, but I recognize that I do not understand God's ways, which are not my ways. I think it is probably most fair to say that anyone who gets into heaven, no matter who they are, is there despite themselves. For if you O Lord should mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 01:44:04 PM by dzheremi »

Offline mike

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #104 on: April 07, 2013, 06:20:21 PM »
For that reason, the Good Thief, like the Holy Innocents, constitutes no argument against the necessity of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.

Reread the Letter to Romans.
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not everything I typed before [insert current date] may reflect my current views on the subject

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #105 on: April 07, 2013, 07:41:33 PM »
the question is not so different

Yes, they are. One deals with what a person must do to be saved, and another deals with the theoretical possibility that someone outside of the Church may be saved. The first we can know, the second we cannot. We do not have official proclamations about the efficacy of anything outside of our Church, whether we're talking about heterodox or non-Christians.

Quote
do you believe you must believe in Christ to be saved for starters, is that one of the things it takes to be saved ?

My personal belief? Yes, of course. Christ is the Savior of the whole world. There is no other name by which we may be saved.

Quote
if you say yes then how can non believers be saved?

I do not know. I don't mean that as a cop out, but I recognize that I do not understand God's ways, which are not my ways. I think it is probably most fair to say that anyone who gets into heaven, no matter who they are, is there despite themselves. For if you O Lord should mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
God has already revealed His judgement to us
In 140 A.D., the early Church Father Hermas quotes Jesus in John 3:5, and writes: 
 
“They had need to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive;
for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God.”119
 
     This statement is obviously a paraphrase of John 3:5, and thus it demonstrates that
from the very beginning of the apostolic age it was held and taught by the fathers that
no one enters heaven without being born again of water and the Spirit based specifically on
Our Lord Jesus Christ’s declaration in John 3:5.
 
In 155 A.D., St. Justin the Martyr writes:
 
“... they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn
in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn... in the name of
God... they receive the washing of water.  For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn,
you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’  The reason for doing this we
have learned from the apostles.”120

Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #106 on: April 07, 2013, 07:42:08 PM »
For that reason, the Good Thief, like the Holy Innocents, constitutes no argument against the necessity of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.

Reread the Letter to Romans.
can you be more specific

Offline mike

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #107 on: April 07, 2013, 07:50:56 PM »
For that reason, the Good Thief, like the Holy Innocents, constitutes no argument against the necessity of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.

Reread the Letter to Romans.
can you be more specific

2, 14-15
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Offline sedevacantist

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #108 on: April 07, 2013, 08:48:05 PM »
For that reason, the Good Thief, like the Holy Innocents, constitutes no argument against the necessity of receiving the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.

Reread the Letter to Romans.
can you be more specific

2, 14-15
For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:

15  Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,

Romans 2:14-16 is reiterating the truth that the natural law is written on the heart of all men, so that all men know that certain things are against God’s law and that certain things are in accordance with the natural law of charity, etc.

 

As the Haydock Bible and Commentary correctly explains about this verse,

 

“these men are a law to themselves, and have it written in their hearts, as to the existence of a God, and their reason tells them, that many sins are unlawful: they may also do some actions that are morally good, as by giving alms to relieve the poor, honoring their parents, etc. not that these actions, morally good, will suffice for their justification of themselves, or make them deserve a supernatural reward in the kingdom of heaven; but God, out of His infinite mercy, will give them some supernatural graces” which if they continue to cooperate with they will get more graces and eventually be exposed to the Catholic Faith, which they must have to be saved.

Offline Kra-nion

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #109 on: May 15, 2013, 02:14:24 AM »
#..non-apos. ,not .......rev.2;2

Online genesisone

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Re: Which churches on the same side of the coin?
« Reply #110 on: May 15, 2013, 11:31:21 AM »
#..non-apos. ,not .......rev.2;2
Please translate into standard English.