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Author Topic: Bush Joins Heretical Service  (Read 2546 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jennifer
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« on: April 11, 2004, 05:08:18 PM »

President Bush, acknowledged heretic, attended a heretical easter service this morning.  

http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/676037.html

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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2004, 05:20:40 PM »

Yeah, but he's not Catholic, so it's not a sin for him to commune in a Protestant Church.
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2004, 05:40:17 PM »

Yeah, but it's a sin for him to be a heretic.  He also belongs to a church (or should I write "church"?) that has female ministers.  It's a two way street.  If we're going to throw hysterical fits about Kerry then lets throw hysterical fits about Bush.  

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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2004, 05:55:06 PM »

Well, in this instance, Bush is being consistent whereas Kerry is not.
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2004, 06:00:23 PM »

The important difference here is that Kerry takes political stands that contradict his responsibilities as a Catholic Christian.  Bush, to my knowledge (not being Catholic or Orthodox in the first place) is not in violation of his church's teachings in regard to his political views.  I'm not a fan of right-wing fundamentalism, but we're talking apples and oranges with this one.
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2004, 06:14:55 PM »

I think it's a fallacy to think that we should vote for candidates as to how we WE think they are fulfilling their religious traditions when WE are not a part of them. I am not a Catholic, nor a Protestant, and I shall not assume that I think I know how well either of the candidates pass muster as to how they are personally living up to their faiths.

Instead, I plan to examine their positions on many issues - and contrast those positions with what I believe would be the will of Christ and the (Orthodox) Church that He instituted. Thus far, I'm dissapointed by both candidates - but then again, when have we ever seen any political leader that lived up to all of the commandments of Christ?
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2004, 06:35:51 PM »

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President Bush, acknowledged heretic, attended a heretical easter service this morning.

Jennifer, why is it you seem to take the side of the enemies of christianity most of the time??? I have never seen in any of your post where you take the side of political leaders that take a christian stance in thier beleifs. From what I've seen so far, you only pop up on this board to post whenever somone post something against the deviants in the democratic party. It seems you put all your energy in defending these people, even though they are wrong on most of the issues. Wouldn't it be better if you just find a discussion board that fits your beleifs?? I'm sure there are plenty of progressive christian type places out there that would be more in line with what you beleive.
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Jennifer
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2004, 07:39:00 PM »

Jennifer, why is it you seem to take the side of the enemies of christianity most of the time??? I have never seen in any of your post where you take the side of political leaders that take a christian stance in thier beleifs.

Well, Nacho, I don't take the side of any political leaders.  I, unlike you, don't put any of them on pedestals.  

Quote
From what I've seen so far, you only pop up on this board to post whenever somone post something against the deviants in the democratic party. It seems you put all your energy in defending these people, even though they are wrong on most of the issues. Wouldn't it be better if you just find a discussion board that fits your beleifs?? I'm sure there are plenty of progressive christian type places out there that would be more in line with what you beleive.

Nacho, this is not the Republican party board.  Christians (and I still don't think you understand this) are allowed to disagree about who would be the best president of this country.  There are issues, such as gun control or welfare reform or the war in Iraq that Christians have different opinions about.  It's not just "progressive christian type" that do not support President Bush in everything.  

I know, of course, that you won't understand that.  It's critical to your understanding of yourself to believe that those who disagree with you are "evil" and "enemies of Christianity."  

I post in response to you because I am tired of people like you claiming sole right to morality.  The Republican party doesn't represent the Christian point of view.  The Democrat party doesn't represent it either.  Good Christians are able to disagree about these issues.  That's what democracy means.  However, because of things like talk radio a minority of the population has become so 'ignorant' and uneducated about the issues and so 'aggressive' and argumentative that it is impossible to have a debate anymore.  

« Last Edit: April 11, 2004, 07:56:26 PM by Jennifer » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2004, 07:44:47 PM »

While I agree with Jennifer that we can disagree on issues and still remain good Christians, I have to disagree with her stance on talk radio.  I enjoy listening to talk radio as well as to reading traditional sources of media such as Time Magazine, Newsweek, the Nightly News on NBC, internet sources, and foreign press.  I think that talk radio often points out things that other sources do not present, as do the foreign sources oftentimes.  Talk radio may have inaccurate reporting or biased commentary but so do the traditional sources of news.  Saying that talk radio makes people uneducated and the population ignorant is a very silly and unfounded charge to make.  Relying SOLELY on talk radio (which is oftentimes unduly hyped for entertainment value) is wrong but so is relying solely on CNN or NBC, or on internet sources, or on foreign sources.  All sources and points of view must be accessed in order to get a broad and informed opinion.

anastasios
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Jennifer
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2004, 08:04:12 PM »

Sorry to disagree but I think listening to talk radio as your only source for news does make people and promotes ignorance.  Those people are entertainers first and foremost.  Everything is about shock value with them.  They lecture their listeners and tell their listeners over and over again that their 'enemies' are "deviants" and "evil."  It lower the level of discourse.  Their stupidity is repeated over and over again so that talk radio listeners get brainwashed.  

The other day I had "seek" on the radio and it hit a talk radio station with Bill O'Reilly.  O'Reilly was saying that the Iraqi people lacked character because they didn't support our "freeing" them.  Then he said that the Vietnamese also didn't have character because they didn't want to fight for their freedom.  That's just dumb.  That's all that can be said about that.  It demonstrates such an ignorance of history.  But O'Reilly's listeners hear that kind of garbage for several hours everyday so they start to believe it.  Plus people like O'Reilly pull out the "no spin zone" shtick, like they don't have biases.  

If talk radio listeners sought out other sources for news it wouldn't be so objectionable.  For example, I love John Stewart but that's not where I go to get my news.  It's entertainment, pure and simple.  But talk radio discourages listening to other sources.  They go on and on about the "bias" in the media which appeals to its disaffected male listeners.  People like Nacho need to demonize their opponents.  They need to make themselves the victim.  It's the same appeal of Marx, e.g the little guy versus the big guy.  It's nothing but lowest common denominator.  
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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2004, 02:52:36 PM »

FWIW I agree with Jennifer on this.  Why is it that on the theological level Orthodox bash away at both Catholics and Protestants, but then when it comes to politics, it is preferred that one be a conservative evangelical Protestant (knowing full well what they think of *us* Orthodox) than a liberal Catholic?  What the heck difference does it make if Kerry is a liberal Catholic and Bush is an evengelical Protestant?

Frankly, it is Bush's version of religion that frightens me more than Kerry's, even though we may be able to find this or that "social issue" on which we agree with Mr. Bush.  His version of religion, his version of social mores, his version of anthropology, salvation, everything related to this is radically different from anything taught by Orthodoxy and to support him simply because he is the "social conservative" du jour really dumbs down the relationship between religion and politics.  There are some issues on which the democrats are closer to Christian teaching, there are others on which the Republicans are, and there is neither party that is per se "Christian", never mind anything approaching "orthodox Christian".  So, we each have to make our choices based on imperfect candidates with some views that contradict those of our faith.

Brendan
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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2004, 02:56:56 PM »

oh lets just go with Peroutka (see http://geocities.com/joe_zollars) for more info.

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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2004, 03:08:32 PM »

Christ is Risen!

I do think that President Bush will be judged differently not knowing any better.  If two girls lose their virginity at 18, one being a priest's daughter and the other having been raised in a brothel, the priest's daughter will certainly be judged harsher because she knew better that it was the wrong thing to do.

So President Bush, not being an Orthodox Christian, doesn't know any better.  He'll be judged differently than an Orthodox Christian who voluntarily worships at the same service.

Concerning talk radio and the other non-mainstream media vs. classical mainstream media, I think the news that is put out by organizations like worldnetdaily.com, the Drudge report, and some of the talk radio personalities (Michael Medved, Michael Savage, Rush Limbaugh, etc.) is crucial to maintain a balance.  I do watch NBC news, CNN, and listen to NPR from time to time, and my experience is that though they claim to be "neutral," they are coming from a very liberal frame of reference most of the time, which isn't necessarily always bad, it's just the way they are.  Having the "conservative" frame of reference is important for balance, IMHO.  I don't know if Fox News can really be considered "conservative," though.  It's definitely much more interesting to watch (CNN and NBC often feel like I'm watching a golfing match) and their reporters seem to ask more difficult, uncomfortable, or probing questions.  

Hope everyone had a blessed and wonderful Pascha!  A wonderful Bright Week to all!!!
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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2004, 03:14:54 PM »

I'm with anastasios on this one.  I listen to NPR...alot.  Mostly because of the slice of life programs they have in the evening, but I also end up listening to most of the liberal talk shows as well because I'm too lazy to turn the dial.

During the day I usually get my news from more "conservative" media, both radio and print.

The key is the balance that I receive, which really forces me to think about an issue from both sides and allows me to form my own opinion on a specific topic, based upon as much of the available information out there as possible.  Sure, it may take me a little longer to form such an opinion, but in the end, it's my opinion and not some pundit's that I'm parroting back.

IMHO, anyone who gets all their news from just one source is an ignoramus in the most literal sense.
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« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2004, 03:18:48 PM »

Just a brief note -- yes I agree that balance is important, it is important to read and/or listen to and/or watch a variety of sources.  I think Fox is fairly conservative, they go out of their way to have a lot of conservative commentary on there.  It isn't Rush Limbaugh, but it's pretty conservative.  I see the broadcast networks as being slight left of center, and CNN as being pretty centrist, but their field reporters are sometimes seemingly anti-American.  NPR is definitely left of centre, but I listen to it almost every day, it provides its own perspective.  Similarly I read the NYT editorials every day, even though they are notoriously predictablly left, because if nothing else they offer an intelligent articulation of that perspective.  A good corrective for them is the Op/Ed section of the Wall Street Journal, which seems to be every bit as right wing as the NYT is left wing.  The Washington Post, being located as it is in a bipartisan area, seems more balanced to me in its editorial page, but sometimes the insight is lacking.  In any case, it makes sense to read or view a variety of different sources to get a view of the issue from different perspectives.

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« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2004, 04:54:26 PM »

Quote
Sorry to disagree but I think listening to talk radio as your only source for news does make people and promotes ignorance.  Those people are entertainers first and foremost.  Everything is about shock value with them.  They lecture their listeners and tell their listeners over and over again that their 'enemies' are "deviants" and "evil."  It lower the level of discourse.  Their stupidity is repeated over and over again so that talk radio listeners get brainwashed.  

I would have to disagree with you on this. Howard Stern is a shock jock, but I wouldn't consider someone like Hannity, Limbaugh or Savage shock jocks because they are shows based off real news & real dialogue with an audience. I find alot of value in what they say as compared to those on the alphabet channels (nbc, abc, cbs), who have a slanted view & presentation of the news. Often, alternative sources such as drudge & talk radio give a full picture of the news as compared to the selective reporting by the mainline media. You also seem somewhat angry about these talk radio shows. If you don't like it, change the dial. If liberals had the intellectual capacity to make it on talk radio, I would be somewhat fair minded in listening to what they have to say. But, since liberal talk radio is a big failure and has been tried many times before, I doubt I will ever get the chance to listen to anyone on the left with any credibilty and staying power. It seems they are only suited for the 1 minute clips on the nightly news.

Quote
The other day I had "seek" on the radio and it hit a talk radio station with Bill O'Reilly.  O'Reilly was saying that the Iraqi people lacked character because they didn't support our "freeing" them.  Then he said that the Vietnamese also didn't have character because they didn't want to fight for their freedom.  That's just dumb.  That's all that can be said about that.  It demonstrates such an ignorance of history.  But O'Reilly's listeners hear that kind of garbage for several hours everyday so they start to believe it.  Plus people like O'Reilly pull out the "no spin zone" shtick, like they don't have biases.  

I doubt this very much. I listen to O'Reilly almost everday & have never heard him make a stupid comment like that. I'm also shocked that out of all the people on talk radio, you would go after O'reilly because he seems to be the most fair minded. I think O"Reilly does the best at portraying how the average american thinks. He's really independent in his analysis, but he does admit he's a traditionalist. My dad, who happens to be a Democrat also listens to O'reilly and has told me the same thing.

Quote
People like Nacho need to demonize their opponents.  They need to make themselves the victim.  It's the same appeal of Marx, e.g the little guy versus the big guy.  It's nothing but lowest common denominator.  

Hehe, thanks for all the attention Jen. I'm not demonizing anyone here. My beleifs are consistant with the church fathers. I'm staunchly Pro life in my values, and anyone or party that is not has a tainted worldview, which affects the rest of thier beleifs. We are called to be radical for jesus, just as the church fathers were. There is nothing wrong with having a real zeal for the faith & defending what is right. The problem with the christian church is that it has comprimised to much on teachings of the church fathers. We've been conditioned to be politicaly correct in todays changing environment. What we need to do is go back to the early church fathers & cling to what they beleived.
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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2004, 05:16:46 PM »

Sorry to disagree but I think listening to talk radio as your only source for news does make people and promotes ignorance.  

You said listening to talk radio--without qualification--causes ignorance.  I wrote back that you have to listen to all sources.  You respond by saying "as your only source."  I think we are talking past each other now.  I don't think listening to it as your only source is an intelligent thing to do.  Whether it itself discourages other forms of media is irrelevant because all forms of media that are for profit try to exclude other forms of media, and we the consumers must simply ignore that aspect.

anastasios
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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2004, 05:18:13 PM »

FWIW I agree with Jennifer on this.  Why is it that on the theological level Orthodox bash away at both Catholics and Protestants, but then when it comes to politics, it is preferred that one be a conservative evangelical Protestant (knowing full well what they think of *us* Orthodox) than a liberal Catholic?  What the heck difference does it make if Kerry is a liberal Catholic and Bush is an evengelical Protestant?

Frankly, it is Bush's version of religion that frightens me more than Kerry's, even though we may be able to find this or that "social issue" on which we agree with Mr. Bush.  His version of religion, his version of social mores, his version of anthropology, salvation, everything related to this is radically different from anything taught by Orthodoxy and to support him simply because he is the "social conservative" du jour really dumbs down the relationship between religion and politics.  There are some issues on which the democrats are closer to Christian teaching, there are others on which the Republicans are, and there is neither party that is per se "Christian", never mind anything approaching "orthodox Christian".  So, we each have to make our choices based on imperfect candidates with some views that contradict those of our faith.

Brendan

Seems like an attempt to make Orthodoxy a different religion than conservative American protestantism.  I wouldn't see Bush's worldview as radically different from Orthodoxy or Catholicism, although it diverges on some points.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2004, 05:19:43 PM by anastasios » Logged

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Jennifer
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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2004, 05:25:39 PM »

I would have to disagree with you on this. Howard Stern is a shock jock, but I wouldn't consider someone like Hannity, Limbaugh or Savage shock jocks because they are shows based off real news & real dialogue with an audience.

Yeah right.  Someone who rights "liberalism is a mental disease" has nothing to add to a discussion of "real news."  

Quote
I find alot of value in what they say as compared to those on the alphabet channels (nbc, abc, cbs), who have a slanted view & presentation of the news.

Oh I'm sure you find a lot of "value" (we each define value differently) in being told that you're right and Bill Clinton is the devil.  But most of us don't find "value" in that.  

Quote
Often, alternative sources such as drudge & talk radio give a full picture of the news as compared to the selective reporting by the mainline media. You also seem somewhat angry about these talk radio shows. If you don't like it, change the dial.

That's the same absurd argument people make against censorship.  If you don't like dirty words on TV, don't watch TV.  

Quote
If liberals had the intellectual capacity to make it on talk radio, I would be somewhat fair minded in listening to what they have to say. But, since liberal talk radio is a big failure and has been tried many times before, I doubt I will ever get the chance to listen to anyone on the left with any credibilty and staying power.

It takes "intellectual capacity" to yell "liberalism is a mental disease."  I don't think so.  And you won't listen to those "dreaded liberals" because they're not as successful at convincing stupid people to listen to them on the radio?  

Quote
It seems they are only suited for the 1 minute clips on the nightly news. I doubt this very much. I listen to O'Reilly almost everday & have never heard him make a stupid comment like that.

He most certainly did say that.  It was towards the end of last week although I don't remember the specific day.  

Quote
I'm also shocked that out of all the people on talk radio, you would go after O'reilly because he seems to be the most fair minded. I think O"Reilly does the best at portraying how the average american thinks. He's really independent in his analysis, but he does admit he's a traditionalist. My dad, who happens to be a Democrat also listens to O'reilly and has told me the same thing.

O'Reilly is not balanced but I wouldn't expect you to be able to tell the difference.  

Quote
Hehe, thanks for all the attention Jen. I'm not demonizing anyone here. My beleifs are consistant with the church fathers. I'm staunchly Pro life in my values, and anyone or party that is not has a tainted worldview, which affects the rest of thier beleifs. We are called to be radical for jesus, just as the church fathers were. There is nothing wrong with having a real zeal for the faith & defending what is right. The problem with the christian church is that it has comprimised to much on teachings of the church fathers. We've been conditioned to be politicaly correct in todays changing environment. What we need to do is go back to the early church fathers & cling to what they beleived.

So where did the Church fathers talk about gun control?  Or the legitimacy of mounting a preemptive strike?  Or tax cuts?
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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2004, 01:09:08 AM »

Jennifer gets the last word on this thread. As with the others, it's time to close it.

Anastasios
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